Fall Theory=Mayavada?

[Kulapavana]

 

Vyasadeva, who compiled the Puranas, has presented slokas about patanam (falldown)...

 

let's see some quotes!

 

Show me shastric quotes that say we all came from Vaikuntha millions of years ago. This belief exists only in Iskcon.

[Kulapavana]

simple test for you:

 

1. Can one fall from the Brahmajyoti? Yes, certainly.

 

2. Are there living entities in Brahmajyoti? Yes, lots!

 

Conclusion: lots of living entities fall from the Brahmajyoti all the time.

[suchandra]

 

This belief exists only in Iskcon.

ISKCON is based upon Prabhupada's canon of knowledge - at least we can saytoday that ISKCON was founded by Prabhupada. Did Prabhupada present a finalization about how the living entities came into the material world?

Rather it can be said that there's no clear specification in written form. In fact this question appears nowhere in the vedic literature to be answered in full detail. Consolation prize, there's lots of knowledge which will be revealed within our heart when such kind of knowledge is required.

 

janmady asya yatah anvayad itaratas carthesv abhijnah svarat

tene brahma hrda ya adi-kavaye muhyanti yat surayah

tejo-vari-mrdam yatha vinimayo yatra tri-sargo 'mrsa

dhamna svena sada nirasta-kuhakam satyam param dhimahi

 

"I meditate upon Lord Sri Krishna because He is the Absolute Truth and the primeval cause of all causes of creation, sustenance and destruction on the manifested universes. He is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations and He is independent because there is no other cause beyond Him. It is He only who first imparted the Vedic knowledge unto the heart of Brahmaji, the original living being. By Him even the great sages and demigods are placed into illusion, as one is bewildered by the illusory representations of water seen in fire, or land seen on water. Only because of Him do the material universes, temporarily manifested by the reactions of the three modes of nature, appear factual, although they are unreal. I therefore meditate upon Him, Lord Sri Krishna, who is eternally existent in the transcendental abode, which is forever free from the illusory representations of the material world. I meditate upon Him, for He is the Absolute Truth."

[Kulapavana]

 

ISKCON is based upon Prabhupada's canon of knowledge - at least we can saytoday that ISKCON was founded by Prabhupada. Did Prabhupada present a finalization about how the living entities came into the material world?

Rather it can be said that there's no clear specification in written form. In fact this question appears nowhere in the vedic literature to be answered in full detail.

 

I have no problem with this approach. However, I strongly object to promoting pseudo-shastric theories like sleeper-vada as the conclusion of Prabhupada's teachings on this subject, or worse yet: disrespecting senior Vaishnavas by calling them impersonalists for promoting the tatastha origin siddhanta.

[bija]

I read in a previous quote on this thread that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada supported these theories of no fall just sleeping.

 

My question is did they explain this theory in such detail as current Iskcon teachers are doing?

 

And did Srila Prabhupada teach this theory in 'great detail' in his books as some are doing on this and other threads?

 

If yes where in the books of these three acaryas (not just conversations) is this found? And if it is not explained in their books in great detail, why?

 

If no, then why was this crucial tattva not explained in full detail by the previous three important acaryas? Considering that so many important tattvas in Gaudiya Vaisnava philosophy have been explained in much detail previously.

 

I read a previous quote that Iskcon will be printing a version of Jaiva Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura that will have commentaries in line with this no fall/sleep theory. Is this true?

 

Thx.

[cbrahma]

 

The Original State of the Jiva

In their book, In Vaikuntha Not Even the Leaves Fall, Satya Narayana dasa and Kundali dasa (hereafter, the authors) maintain that although Srila Prabhupada often taught that conditioned souls have fallen from the personal association and service of the Lord, he also wrote in his books that no one falls down from Vaikuntha. The authors argue that this apparent conflict can only be resolved by recourse to shastra and the previous acharyas. These sources, they claim, show unambiguously that the conditioned state of the jivas is literally beginningless, or anadi, and that souls do not fall down from Vaikuntha. The authors further insist that Srila Prabhupada’s teaching that some souls do fall from Vaikuntha was merely a preaching strategy. They assert that Srila Prabhupada generally spoke this false doctrine in his private communications, such as letters and conversations, but in his books he speaks the siddhanta: that no one falls from Vaikuntha.

 

Mandukya Upanishad

The authors first attempt to give evidence from shruti, for they argue at length that in the Vedic tradition, all interpretations of the acharyas or of smriti must conform to shruti. They state:

The shruti confirms that the jiva’s bondage is caused by beginningless maya (Mandukya Upanishad 1.16)*:

anadi-mayaya supto yada jivah prabudhyate ajam anidram asvapnam advaitam budhyate tada

[When the jiva, sleeping by (the influence of) beginningless maya, awakens, then he realizes the unborn, sleepless, dreamless nonduality.]*

Someone may argue that it is maya—used here in the sense of the external energy—that is anadi, and not the bondage of the jiva. But that is not the intention of this verse. The verse is not describing maya-shakti; it is explaining the conditioning of the jiva and its characteristics at the liberated stage.*

There are three problems with the authors’ interpretation of this text:

1. The authors have invented a stopgap rule of interpretation for this verse. It is: “In a verse describing the jiva’s conditioned state, a reference to maya shall be understood as indicating the individual illusion of the soul and not the Lord’s personified external energy.” No such rule is given by the acharyas or the shastra.

A prominent example from the Bhagavatam (among dozen of such examples) demonstrates that this new rule of scriptural interpretation cannot pass the test of shastric reference. After hearing from his guru, Narada, Vyasadeva saw the Lord and His illusory energy, as described in these verses (Bhag. 1.7.4–5)*:

“Thus he [Vyasadeva] fixed his mind, perfectly engaging it in devotional service [bhakti-yoga] without any tinge of materialism, and thus he saw the Absolute Personality of Godhead along with His external energy, which was under full control. Due to this external energy, the living entity, although transcendental to the three modes of material nature, thinks of himself as a material product and thus undergoes the reactions of material miseries.”

Verse 1.7.5 of the Bhagavatam speaks clearly and directly about the conditioned jiva, yet the word yaya, “by which [illusory energy],” refers to the Lord’s external potency, maya.

2. The authors commit a logical mistake in their interpretation of the so-called shruti text under discussion:

Moreover, by logic, the effect of anadi objects is also anadi. So if maya is anadi, as the verse says, then its effect, “ the sleep of the jiva,” is also anadi.*

Although logic does dictate that an anadi cause has an anadi effect, logic does not tell us that all these effects must be experienced by the same subject. For example, the sun has been shining on India for millions of years, but this does not mean that a particular Indian has enjoyed that sunshine for millions of years.

3. The third mistake is perhaps the most serious: the above quote is not actually from the Mandukya Upanishad, which has only twelve verses. The so-called verse 1.16 is actually from a famous commentary on the Mandukya Upanishad by Gaudapada, the parama-guru of Sankaracharya. Indeed, one may note the impersonal flavor of the text:

“When the jiva, sleeping by [the influence of] beginningless maya, awakens, then he realizes the unborn, sleepless, dreamless nonduality.”

http://catalog.bbt.info/d_show_excerpt.php?id=70&edi=73

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago

 

 

The following is a class given on the 5<SUP>th</SUP> June 2008 at a Hare Krsna farm at Bega Southern NSW Australia.

Srila Prabhupada has explained that our original and perpetual state of being is a nitya siddha bodily servant of Krsna in His abode beyond this material world.

This is the original (that also means eternal in this context) identity of all marginal living entities, due to being eternally sheltered in the ‘timeless present’ atmosphere of Krsnaloka where there is no concept of past or future

This means that the eternal body that is our imperishable real form and identity, actually never falls down. This is because every living entity already exists in the fullness of their marginal identity due to the nature of the ‘eternal present’.

This means that all the bodily forms of every marginal living entity is there in Vaikuntha, and has always been there. This further means there was never a time when their perpetual svarupa body was not there in Krsnaloka.

So this is telling us what the eternal present means, every ‘svarupa’ body is eternal present there. ‘Everybody’ is already in Vaikuntha; we just have to realize this through bhakti, chanting Hare Krsna and sankirtan

Srila Prabhupada is also saying that the memory of being nitya-siddha can be covered over by the free will if one chooses to imagine their own existence without Krishna.

This is just like one who daydream in their present material body, they dream of being a King that seems very real while they are dreaming the dream. This imaginary world they have created, where they ‘think’ they are a rich King, will continues on for as long as the dream lasts or while their ‘current dreaming' material body has wondered off subconsciously into the world of imagination..

Srila Prabhupada was trying to tell us all those years ago; that all nitya siddha’s have the potential to be covered over, to dream they are not in Krsnaloka due to their free will and choice. In actual fact, without free will and choose, there can never be love and this is why there must be free will.

Consequently, it is not ones ‘svarupa’ body that leaves Krsnaloka; it is rather one self-important dreams and imagination that cloud the memory of being nitya-siddha and is therefore forgotten due to those dreams, like one forgets their material body while dreaming. That dream state is called nitya-baddha.

Also, keep in mind that it is due to the eternal reality of the timeless ‘present’ that makes it impossible for the nitya-siddha body to fall down. In other words, no–one in their ‘real’ (which means eternal svarupa body) can possible leave Vaikuntha anyway.

There is only one way of leaving and that is via ones imagination, thoughts, and dreams. One can only ‘consciously’ fall down, they can never ‘bodily’ fall down.

What is real (meaning one eternal nitya-siddha body) can never leave because there is no concept of future or past, there is only the eternal ‘now’.

Further more, what Srila Prabhupada means by when he says a nitya siddha can never fall down, is they are always nitya-siddha, just like the sun is always the sun even though the clouds might cover it, or our reflection in the mirror is not seen due to dust covering the mirror.

Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering) however the nitya-siddha body, like the Sun, is eternally there behind the clouds, behind the baddha-jiva clouded mundane consciousness.

Therefore, it is due to the cloud covering we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud covering, or the mundane nitya-baddha consciousness.

This cloud covering is now all we are aware of because it has blocked out the sun. We are not able to see the sun shinning due to the cloud covering the sun. The sun is still there, just as our nitya-siddha body is there in Goloka however; it is not realized because of the cloud cover or nitya-baddha consciousness.

We can’t be nitya-siddha at this time because we cannot see or be aware of that covered identity.

Therefore, our only present awareness of ourselves is solely nitya-baddha. This remains that way until we remove the dark cloud covering of material desires by replacing them with loving selfless, prideless, unconditional devotional Krishna Conscious desires to please the devotees and Krsna.

Then gradually the cloud cover or nitya-baddha dreaming condition is dissipated revealing the sun or our eternal nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious bodily identity eternally serving Krishna.

In fact, most devotees in Goloka never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha to be covered by selfish desires that activate their nitya baddha sub-conscious dream state and throws them out of sync with the ‘eternal present’ and puts them in the mahat-tattva universe of divided time (past, present and future).

Fortunately, most marginal living entities do NOT allow themselves to be covered by non Krishna Conscious desires that manifest their baddha-jiva consciousness because of their desire and choice to always ever increase their love for Krsna.

This is why all marginal living entities have free will and the ability to choose, so they can serve Krsna with their own offerings, or jointly with other devotees, they create or think of themselves. This is why individuality and free will is paramount, without it, we are just pawns or robots without any ability to love, to give, to serve.

Such incredible statements are mind-boggling because how is it possible to calculate endless Spiritual creation without Bhakti (Ever expanding loving personal service with ones own individual creativity, to Krishna)? Even just a little service to a pure devotee can save one from the greatest fear and allow one to understand things that have always been inconceivable to others

So it is important to understand that ALL nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha. Some however, imagine and dream they leave, because the fact is, they can never as their nitya siddha body. Most never enter the world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha.

 

[Beggar]

Sarva gattah, don't you see the limitations of the material language called English as you try to explain your thoughts about eternity? In one sentence we are nitya siddha and the next not. I know that you'll say, no, no, you don't understand but actually I do. I understand what truth that you are trying to convey. But why try so hard? Just let the acaryas, sastra and Srila Prabhupada do the explaining. There's only so much a imperfect being can convey because most of it doesn't really depend on our words but the level of our realization which in bhakti means how much we love Krsna. In our conditioned state, so much or our own stuff will come out so that others will perceive it as politically tainted. Just let Prabhupada do the explaining. The devotees will get what they are going to get according to their level of attainment and whatever divine mercy will come their way. I guess that I'm talking to myself, also.

[Sarva gattah]

Beggar, the answer is simple, speaking put into writing is attempting to communicate knowledge of the Absolute to those who are quakified to understand.

 

Actually this is why Vysa wrote the Vedas however, without the person Bhagavat (the spiritual Master), or some spiritual piety that attracts one to even just a painting of the Lord and His devotees within a book, then such words are only ink on paper.

 

Just like you cannot build a stair case to heaven, you also cannot understand your relationship with God with just a pen on paper or a computor or even a having a book like Srimad Bhagavatam. One must have the favour of their spiritual master, even if that is in the form of chastisement, as in my case.

 

The point is, these things CAN be understood by personal realization, but ONLY by the direct guidance and help from ones Guru. As the christians say, 'there is no other way' no-one goes back to the father without the mercy of the Spiritual Master

 

To understand the following quote from my previous post, only comes by personal realizations based on one's service to ones Spiritual Master, or even, as in my cause, the causeless mercy of my spiritual Master. As you can see. this is very personal and therefore difficult for the 'ink writers' alone with their ink and computors to understand. It is like trying to lick and taste the nectar of honey by licking the glass jar or container that the honey is sealed in.

 

 

This is why all marginal living entities have free will and the ability to choose, so they can serve Krsna with their own offerings, or jointly with other devotees, they create or think of themselves. This is why individuality and free will is paramount, without it, we are just pawns or robots without any ability to love, to give, to serve.

Such incredible statements are mind-boggling because how is it possible to calculate endless Spiritual creation without Bhakti (Ever expanding loving personal service with ones own individual creativity, to Krishna)? Even just a little service to a pure devotee can save one from the greatest fear and allow one to understand things that have always been inconceivable to others

[Beggar]

 

 

Actually this is why Vysa wrote the Vedas however, without the person Bhagavat (the spiritual Master), or some spiritual piety that attracts one to even just a painting of the Lord and His devotees within a book, then such words are only ink on paper.

 

Just like you cannot build a stair case to heaven, you also cannot understand your relationship with God with just a pen on paper or a computor or even a having a book like Srimad Bhagavatam. One must have the favour of their spiritual master, even if that is in the form of chastisement, as in my case.

.

Only the guru would say that he had the favour of his guru, and this would be for the benefit of his disciples. But we are not your disciples, so this is a breach of the vaisnava sadacara or etiquette. Each thought within the siddhanta has applicability in relationship to other thoughts. If we think that we are already liberated, then such a thought becomes an error if it leads to a boastful attitude. Better to think that the residents of the transcendental dhama are constitutionally of a higher position than ourselves. Better to think that although the holy name of Krsna is so merciful but unfortunately we have no attraction. Better to think that everyone has received the mercy of Mahaprabhu except myself. Better to think that I have no love for Krsna because if I did then I couldn't maintain my insect-like existence in this world. Sound familiar?

[realist]

 

 

The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning,

KRSNALOKA

 

 

 

We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago

 

The following is a class given on the 5<SUP>th</SUP> June 2008 at a Hare Krsna farm at Bega Southern NSW Australia.

 

<?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada has explained that our original and perpetual state of being is a nitya siddha bodily servant of Krsna in His abode beyond this material world.

 

<u1:p></u1:p>This is the original (that also means eternal in this context) identity of all marginal living entities, due to being eternally sheltered in the ‘timeless present’ atmosphere of Krsnaloka where there is no concept of past or future

 

<u1:p></u1:p>This means that the eternal body that is our imperishable real form and identity, actually never falls down. This is because every living entity already exists in the fullness of their marginal identity due to the nature of the ‘eternal present’. This means that all the bodily forms of every marginal living entity is there in Vaikuntha, and has always been there. This further means there was never a time when their perpetual svarupa body was not there in Krsnaloka.So this is telling us what the eternal present means, every ‘svarupa’ body is eternal present there. ‘Everybody’ is already in Vaikuntha; we just have to realize this through bhakti, chanting Hare Krsna and sankirtan Srila Prabhupada is also saying that the memory of being nitya-siddha can be covered over by the free will if one chooses to imagine their own existence without Krishna.

 

<u1:p></u1:p>This is just like one who daydream in their present material body, they dream of being a King that seems very real while they are dreaming the dream. This imaginary world they have created, where they ‘think’ they are a rich King, will continues on for as long as the dream lasts or while their ‘current dreaming' material body has wondered off subconsciously into the world of imagination. Srila Prabhupada was trying to tell us all those years ago; that all nitya siddha’s have the potential to be covered over, to dream they are not in Krsnaloka due to their free will and choice. In actual fact, without free will and choose, there can never be love and this is why there must be free will. Consequently, it is not ones ‘svarupa’ body that leaves Krsnaloka; it is rather one self-important dreams and imagination that cloud the memory of being nitya-siddha and is therefore forgotten due to those dreams, like one forgets their material body while dreaming. That dream state is called nitya-baddha.

 

<u1:p></u1:p>Also, keep in mind that it is due to the eternal reality of the timeless ‘present’ that makes it impossible for the nitya-siddha body to fall down. In other words, no–one in their ‘real’ (which means eternal svarupa body) can possible leave Vaikuntha anyway.

 

<u1:p></u1:p>There is only one way of leaving and that is via ones imagination, thoughts, and dreams. One can only ‘consciously’ fall down, they can never ‘bodily’ fall down

 

<u1:p></u1:p>What is real (meaning one eternal nitya-siddha body) can never leave because there is no concept of future or past, there is only the eternal ‘now’.

 

<u1:p></u1:p>Further more, what Srila Prabhupada means by when he says a nitya siddha can never fall down, is they are always nitya-siddha, just like the sun is always the sun even though the clouds might cover it, or our reflection in the mirror is not seen due to dust covering the mirror.

 

Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering) however the nitya-siddha body, like the Sun, is eternally there behind the clouds, behind the baddha-jiva clouded mundane consciousness.

 

<u1:p></u1:p>Therefore, it is due to the cloud covering we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud covering, or the mundane nitya-baddha consciousness.

 

<u1:p></u1:p>This cloud covering is now all we are aware of because it has blocked out the sun. We are not able to see the sun shinning due to the cloud covering the sun. The sun is still there, just as our nitya-siddha body is there in Goloka however; it is not realized because of the cloud cover or nitya-baddha consciousness

 

<u1:p></u1:p>We can’t be nitya-siddha at this time because we cannot see or be aware of that covered identity. Therefore, our only present awareness of ourselves is solely nitya-baddha. This remains that way until we remove the dark cloud covering of material desires by replacing them with loving selfless, prideless, unconditional devotional Krishna Conscious desires to please the devotees and Krsna.

 

<u1:p></u1:p>Then gradually the cloud cover or nitya-baddha dreaming condition is dissipated revealing the sun or our eternal nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious bodily identity eternally serving Krishna. In fact, most devotees in Goloka never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha to be covered by selfish desires that activate their nitya baddha sub-conscious dream state and throws them out of sync with the ‘eternal present’ and puts them in the mahat-tattva universe of divided time (past, present and future)

 

<u1:p></u1:p>Fortunately, most marginal living entities do NOT allow themselves to be covered by non Krishna Conscious desires that manifest their baddha-jiva consciousness because of their desire and choice to always ever increase their love for Krsna

 

<u1:p></u1:p>This is why all marginal living entities have free will and the ability to choose, so they can serve Krsna with their own offerings, or jointly with other devotees, they create or think of themselves. This is why individuality and free will is paramount, without it, we are just pawns or robots without any ability to love, to give, to serve. Such incredible statements are mind-boggling because how is it possible to calculate endless Spiritual creation without Bhakti (Ever expanding loving personal service with ones own individual creativity, to Krishna)? Even just a little service to a pure devotee can save one from the greatest fear and allow one to understand things that have always been inconceivable to others.

 

<u1:p></u1:p>So it is important to understand that ALL nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha. Some however, imagine and dream they leave, because the fact is, they can never as their nitya siddha body. Most never enter the world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha

 

 

 

The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning, KRSNALOKA

 

 

 

 

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This is why all marginal living entities have free will and the ability to choose, so they can serve Krsna with their own offerings, or jointly with other devotees, they create or think of themselves. This is why individuality and free will is paramount, without it, we are just pawns or robots without any ability to love, to give, to serve Such incredible statements are mind-boggling because how is it possible to calculate endless Spiritual creation without Bhakti (Ever expanding loving personal service with ones own individual creativity, to Krishna)?Even just a little service to a pure devotee can save one from the greatest fear and allow one to understand things that have always been inconceivable to others.Writing, is attempting to communicate knowledge of the Absolute to those who are seeking to understand. Actually this is why Veda Vysa wrote the Vedas however, without the person Bhagavat (the spiritual Master), or some spiritual piety that attracts one to even just a painting of the Lord and His devotees within a book, then such words are only ink on paper.Just like you cannot build a staircase to heaven, you also cannot understand your relationship with God with just a pen on paper or a computer or even a having a book like Srimad Bhagavatam. One must have the favour of their spiritual master, even if that is in the form of chastisement, as in my case. The point is, these things CAN be understood by personal realization, but ONLY by the direct guidance and help from ones Guru. However, such knowledge of our 'origins' is NOT necessary to perform one's service to Krsna. As the Christians say, 'there is no other way' no-one goes back to the father without the mercy of the Spiritual Master. To understand all spiritual realizations, only comes by the personal realizations based on one's service to ones Spiritual Master, or even, as in many cases, the causeless mercy of ones spiritual Master comes from within ones own heart. As you one can see, this is a very personal search for God and therefore difficult for the 'ink writers' alone with their ink and computers to understand.It is like trying to lick and taste the nectar of honey by licking the glass jar or container that the honey is sealed in without having the association of 'pure' devotees

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘originally everyone (all marginal living entities) is nitya-siddha’.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

[cbrahma]

 

 

One wonders how the jiva spiritual body (svarupa) can be eternal if they don't originate in the spiritual world. There must be attained afterwards.

Of course that isn't what the sastras say about the svarupa.

 

 

[realist]

 

 

 

One wonders how the jiva spiritual body (svarupa) can be eternal if they don't originate in the spiritual world. There must be attained afterwards.

Of course that isn't what the sastras say about the svarupa.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada was trying to tell us all those years ago; that all nitya siddha’s have the potential to be covered over, to dream they are not in Krsnaloka due to their free will and choice. In actual fact, without free will and choose, there can never be love and this is why there must be free will.

Consequently, it is not ones ‘svarupa’ body that leaves Krsnaloka; it is rather one self-important dreams and imagination that cloud the memory of being nitya-siddha and is therefore forgotten due to those dreams, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

 

That dream state that comes to the material world is called nitya-baddha.

Also, keep in mind, that it is due to the eternal reality of the timeless ‘present’ in Krsnaloka where the wonderful, blissful and endless pastimes of the Lord are going on devoid of past and future, as we know it.

 

Therefore, it is 'the eternal present' where EVERYTHING IS eternally present, that makes it impossible for the nitya-siddha body form to fall down. In other words, no–one in their ‘real’ (which means eternal svarupa body) can possible leave Vaikuntha anyway. Fall down is a conscious fall down, not a bodily fall down.

There is only one way of leaving and that is via ones imagination, thoughts, and dreams. One can only ‘consciously’ fall down, they can never ‘bodily’ fall down because of the nature of the eternal present. Nothing goes in, nothing goes out (unless Krsna thinks otherwise for pastime, but even then, ones nitya-siddha-svarupa body STILL remains in Krsnaloka, even if one is acting as nitya-siddha in the material world) because EVERYONE is already there. We are there right now, we just have be become Krsna Conscious so we can wake up from our dream state and remember who we 'really' are..

What is real (meaning one eternal nitya-siddha body that is without end or beginning) can NEVER leave because there is no concept of future or past, there is only the eternal ‘now’ in Krsnaloka and Vaikuntha. Try to understand

[Beggar]

 

The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning,

KRSNALOKA

Which would also mean that there is no beginning nor end in eternity or absolute reality. Origin means beginning. If we have no origin in absolute reality (nor does Lord Balarama), then what kind of reality do we have an "origin" in? The answer is the relativity of the absolute. The absolute can have a relative aspect because the jiva soul and Bhagavan, the Supreme Personality of Godhead are eternally individuals. He is our eternal relative and our friend or also the other three active rasas. The Crow and the Tal Fruit example given by Srila Prabhupada shows how all origin concepts by the nature of saying that the jivas and all of Krsna's expansions have a beginning is relative. So saying that the jivas originate either in the brahmajyoti or vaikuntha is a relative statement. But the brahmajyoti or tathastha origin concept has its place in the Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta because it is used to illustrate several key points, such as: 1) how the Lord is infinite and the jivas are infinitesimal 2) the infallible position of the Lords eternal servitors, therefore their worshipable position 3) Why upon attaining that abode, one never comes back to the material world. But if what I'm saying is true then that means that parts of the siddhanta are relative and to the untrained ear that sounds like blaspheme! The answer is tarko pratisthanat, any argumemt even within the siddhanta which is based on logic can be defeated by another logical construct. The obvious example of this is the Crow and Tal Fruit logic calling into question all descriptions of the beginning or origin of the jiva soul. There are also numerous relativities in other parts of the siddhanta. For example Srila Sanatana Goswami only traces Krsna Lila in his works in Vrndavana but Srila Rupa Goswami has traced Krsna lila all the way through Dvaraka. Who's right? The answer is both, such is another aspect of the relativity of the absolute.

Now back to the Origin Controversy; The siddhanta never says that the jiva originates in Vaikuntha or Goloka. Yet, it is siddhantically correct to say that in the present moment we are in our relationship with Krsna but in the relative moment we are in forgetfulness or ignorance. Since origin conceptions are relative and therefore just logical constructs to express ontological spiritual truths, the acaryas have never written that the jivas originate in Vaikuntha because such a logical construct creates too many contradictions.

We should note here that over the last few months, Gauragopal Prabhu has altered his theories. He no longer writes that the jivas are dreaming from their eternal position in Vaikuntha, the problem is that through his logic, he still implies it. It is contradictory to say that the jivas have no origin, "the present moment concept", and then say that they originate in Vaikuntha.

Of course it is also a contradiction to give the "present moment concept" and then give the tatastha origin conception. The acaryas have solved this problem by showing that although the present moment concept of eternity over-rides the tatastha origin conception, that the tatastha origin conception is still a very useful explanation of the relativity of the absolute.

[realist]

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘originally everyone (all marginal living entities) is nitya-siddha’.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

Our original position is eternal, we are all eternally nitya-siddha which IS our original and eternal position, presently covered while we dream away in the material creation.

The Brahmajyoti or Krsna’s effulgence, IS the entire creation, divided up into three zones of conscious thought, from devotional activity in the Vaikunthas, to conditioned activity in the mahat-tattva, to inactivity in the dormant dreamless state - All are aspects of the Brahmajyoti

These different aspects of the Brahmajyoti can be achieved or experienced by free will and choice however, ONLY Krsna's abode and the Vaikunthas, that make up 75% of the Brahmajyoti, Spiritual Sky or creation, are without end and situated in the personal active 'eternal present' of Krsna's perpetual pastimes.

The other 25% of the Brahmajyoti is made up of those who have chosen to forgotten their nitya -siddha body in the 'eternal present' and have entered that part of creation known as the perishable mahat-tattva and later on may enter the temporary impersonal Brahman, both in a 'dream consciousness' known as the baddha-jiva.

This devotional active original fullness of the Brahmajyoti is eternal personal, which means it is made up of ALL living entities that are perpetually represented there in their perpetual nitya-siddha body serving Krsna

For a living entity, who has transmigrated through the lower species to the human biological body, simply means that the living entity had FIRST chosen to ‘consciously (like in a dream), fall down from Krsnaloka, long, long, long ago, from also the eternal body that is their real perpetual ‘self’ (nitya-siddha) whose only activity there is serving Krsna or God.

This was achieved by free will and choice; the marginal living entity therefore is able to leave Goloka ‘consciously’ as their secondary lower baddha-jiva consciousness and travel to the heavenly planets within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

The baddha-jiva may then travel further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets, and the then to lower species of biological life.

Some baddha-jivas may also take shelter in the dormant aspect of their own baddha-jiva consciousness that is collectively, along with other baddha-jivas who have also chosen the dreamless dream state, known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahman effulgence

The impersonal characteristic of the Brahmajyoti or Brahman IS the nitya-baddha souls in a collective of souls that IS the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

The brahmajyoti is full of jiva-souls; the word sarva-gatah means life IS the Brahmajyoti and is everywhere. So, what is the Brahmajyoti?

The Brahmajyoti or Krsna’s effulgence, IS the entire creation, divided up into three zones of conscious thought, from devotional activity in the Vaikunthas, to conditioned activity in the mahat-tattva, to inactivity in the dormant dreamless state - All are aspects of the Brahmajyoti

1.The Vaikunthas and Krsnaloka those are always active in service to Krsna or Vishnu

2. The mahat-tattva or material creation of Maha-Vishnu that is where the marginal living entity can CHOOSE to go to lead their own way of life without Krsna

3. When those who have entered the mahat-tattva become fed up with the temporary frustrating nature of the material world and the vessels or bodies they move around in, they often seek an inactive dormant state of consciousness.

They only seek out such an end to their existence because they still have no memory or recollection of their eternal body in Krsnaloka.

Therefore, due to this ignorant state the baddha-jiva is in, they choose to learn through the yogic process, to ‘close their consciousness down’ and stop the generation of thought. (which can be achieved, but is also a temporary dormant 'state of the baddha-jiva's consciousness".

This dormant conscious state of the baddha-jiva is known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti, which means it is the ‘inactive ‘state of consciousness of the souls that make up and IS the Personal Brahmajyoti – hence its reflection is the impersonal aspect of that same Brahmajyoti.

[Beggar]

 

Our original position is eternal, we are all eternally nitya-siddha which IS our original and eternal position, presently covered while we dream away in the material creation.

The Brahmajyoti or Krsna’s effulgence, IS the entire creation, divided up into three zones of conscious thought, from devotional activity in the Vaikunthas, to conditioned activity in the mahat-tattva, to inactivity in the dormant dreamless state - All are aspects of the Brahmajyoti

These different aspects of the Brahmajyoti can be achieved or experienced by free will and choice however, ONLY Krsna's abode and the Vaikunthas, that make up 75% of the Brahmajyoti, Spiritual Sky or creation, are without end and situated in the personal active 'eternal present' of Krsna's perpetual pastimes.

The other 25% of the Brahmajyoti is made up of those who have chosen to forgotten their nitya -siddha body in the 'eternal present' and have entered that part of creation known as the perishable mahat-tattva and later on may enter the temporary impersonal Brahman, both in a 'dream consciousness' known as the baddha-jiva.

This devotional active original fullness of the Brahmajyoti is eternal personal, which means it is made up of ALL living entities that are perpetually represented there in their perpetual nitya-siddha body serving Krsna

For a living entity, who has transmigrated through the lower species to the human biological body, simply means that the living entity had FIRST chosen to ‘consciously (like in a dream), fall down from Krsnaloka, long, long, long ago, from also the eternal body that is their real perpetual ‘self’ (nitya-siddha) whose only activity there is serving Krsna or God.

This was achieved by free will and choice; the marginal living entity therefore is able to leave Goloka ‘consciously’ as their secondary lower baddha-jiva consciousness and travel to the heavenly planets within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

The baddha-jiva may then travel further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets, and the then to lower species of biological life.

Some baddha-jivas may also take shelter in the dormant aspect of their own baddha-jiva consciousness that is collectively, along with other baddha-jivas who have also chosen the dreamless dream state, known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahman effulgence

The impersonal characteristic of the Brahmajyoti or Brahman IS the nitya-baddha souls in a collective of souls that IS the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

The brahmajyoti is full of jiva-souls; the word sarva-gatah means life IS the Brahmajyoti and is everywhere. So, what is the Brahmajyoti?

The Brahmajyoti or Krsna’s effulgence, IS the entire creation, divided up into three zones of conscious thought, from devotional activity in the Vaikunthas, to conditioned activity in the mahat-tattva, to inactivity in the dormant dreamless state - All are aspects of the Brahmajyoti

1.The Vaikunthas and Krsnaloka those are always active in service to Krsna or Vishnu

2. The mahat-tattva or material creation of Maha-Vishnu that is where the marginal living entity can CHOOSE to go to lead their own way of life without Krsna

3. When those who have entered the mahat-tattva become fed up with the temporary frustrating nature of the material world and the vessels or bodies they move around in, they often seek an inactive dormant state of consciousness.

They only seek out such an end to their existence because they still have no memory or recollection of their eternal body in Krsnaloka.

Therefore, due to this ignorant state the baddha-jiva is in, they choose to learn through the yogic process, to ‘close their consciousness down’ and stop the generation of thought. (which can be achieved, but is also a temporary dormant 'state of the baddha-jiva's consciousness".

This dormant conscious state of the baddha-jiva is known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti, which means it is the ‘inactive ‘state of consciousness of the souls that make up and IS the Personal Brahmajyoti – hence its reflection is the impersonal aspect of that same Brahmajyoti.

 

What part of the above essay is relative and what part is absolute?

[Vedesu]

 

What part of the above essay is relative and what part is absolute?

 

Good point. And good luck. It's kind of ironic, but it almost seems to me that you're trying to dialogue with an impersonal essay machine that is incapable of engaging in straightforward point-by-point discussions, let alone participating in a heartfelt or personal manner.

 

We've read all the essays before. Now it's time to lose the machine-like verbiage and speak from the heart, relevant to the thoughtful points being raised by Beggar Prabhu. Is that even possible? I have my doubts.

[Beggar]

 

.

Of course it is also a contradiction to give the "present moment concept" and then give the tatastha origin conception. The acaryas have solved this problem by showing that although the present moment concept of eternity over-rides the tatastha origin conception, that the tatastha origin conception is still a very useful explanation of the relativity of the absolute.

And this is what Srila Prabhupada is really telling us and I wouldn't have caught it in my reading of Jaiva Dharma if Gauragopal Prabhu had not raised the issue. I wouldn't have picked up on the fact that ex-Iskcon fall from Vaikuntha fanatics have morphed into fall from brahmajyoti fanatics. Don't you see your victory? I still see the defects in the way you express yourself, which I believe are real. I still disagree that Srilla Sridhar Maharaj was speaking something impersonal - impossible! I still don't accept the explanation that we "originate' in Vaikuntha, but I can see that

the present moment concept of eternity over-rides the tatastha origin conception.

and that is a major 'meeting of the minds'.

[bhaktajan]

Realist's posting #116 is a perfectly drafted exposition. Realist, You should immediately post it as its own thread and/or add it to the "Advaita Thread".

 

I thank you for your lucide delineation of "Jiva-tattva" --and thus the path of the Jivatma's sojourn afar from Krishna's side.

 

Each of your paragraphs are an aphorism unto themselves replete with all the requisite scriptural nuances that I myself recognize in your references to "Visnu-tattva's expansions" and further, the subtle truth that the jiva in Krishna's abode gets a "one-time" hard-love leniency premission grant to leave Viakuntha [but how could Krishna grant leave and thus endure seperation from a resident of Vraja?].

 

There are so many residents of Heaven where all souls seek out private audience "face-time" with the Lord. This makes for an economy based on the amount of God's darshan one possesses.

 

In the material world we are seeking out those qualities that we originally saw eternally in pure innocence in Krishna's personage-- we have been avoiding the darshan of Krishna/Narayana --since we first wondered if it is possible to live without Krishna's direct personal association and finally upon moksha TO NEVER MAKE THAT MISTAKE AGAIN; NO MORE SAMSARA-- this would make for a common brijabasi to be a wise old indian and/or cowboy.

 

BEGGER:

When a Sadhu has his own "realization" it is a most auspious moment in history--and if we are fortunately present at the scene of a Sadhus' epiphony then such a darshan is unlimitedly auspicious, more so then when the sadhu is just going about his daily sadhana.

 

We are made mutually blessed while we publically witness your own thinking-processes expands. Now that is what Vedanta is all about.

 

 

I'm an old cow-hand from vrindavan land--He's an old cow-hand from vrindavan land,

Bhaktajan

 

 

[Beggar]

 

 

I'm an old cow-hand from vrindavan land--He's an old cow-hand from vrindavan land,

Bhaktajan

 

 

 

I'm just an old cow-hand from the Rio Grand, although now I am vegetarian.

Here's a picture of me with Raya Rogers, sometimes known as Rogers Raya:

[bhaktajan]

 

... I can see that

the present moment concept of eternity over-rides the tatastha origin conception.

and that is a major 'meeting of the minds'.

 

 

 

SB 1.14.32-33

 

Also, Çrutadeva, Uddhava and others, Nanda, Sunanda and other leaders of liberated souls who are constant companions of the Lord are protected by Lord Balaräma and Kåñëa. Are they all doing well in their respective functions? Do they, who are all eternally bound in friendship with us, remember our welfare?

 

 

PURPORT

 

The constant companions of Lord Kåñëa, such as Uddhava, are all liberated souls, and they descended along with Lord Kåñëa to this material world to fulfill the mission of the Lord. The Päëòavas are also liberated souls who descended along with Lord Kåñëa to serve Him in His transcendental pastimes on this earth.

 

As stated in the Bhagavad-gétä (4.8), the Lord and His eternal associates, who are also liberated souls like the Lord, come down on this earth at certain intervals. The Lord remembers them all, but His associates, although liberated souls, forget due to their being taöasthä çakti, or marginal potency of the Lord. That is the difference between the viñëu-tattva and jéva-tattva.

 

The jéva-tattvas are infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord, and therefore they require the protection of the Lord at all times. And to the eternal servitors of the Lord, the Lord is pleased to give all protection at all times.

 

The liberated souls never, therefore, think themselves as free as the Lord or as powerful as the Lord, but they always seek the protection of the Lord in all circumstances, both in the material world and in the spiritual world.

 

This dependence of the liberated soul is constitutional, for the liberated souls are like sparks of a fire that are able to exhibit the glow of fire along with the fire and not independently. Independently the glow of the sparks is extinguished, although the quality of fire or the glowing is there. Thus those who give up the protection of the Lord and become so-called lords themselves, out of spiritual ignorance, come back again to this material world, even after prolonged tapasya of the severest type. That is the verdict of all Vedic literature.

 

 

SB 2.6.17

 

The sun illuminates both internally and externally by expanding its radiation; similarly, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, by expanding His universal form, maintains everything in the creation both internally and externally.

 

 

PURPORT

 

The universal form of the Lord, or the impersonal feature of the Lord known as the brahmajyoti, is clearly explained here and compared to the radiation of the sun.

 

The sunshine may expand all over the universe, but the source of the sunshine, namely the sun planet or the deity known as Sürya-näräyaëa, is the basis of such radiation. Similarly, the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Kåñëa is the basis of the impersonal brahmajyoti radiation, or the impersonal feature of the Lord.

 

This is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gétä (14.27). So the universal form of the Lord is the secondary imagination of the impersonal form of the Lord, but the primary form of the Lord is Çyämasundara, with two hands, playing on His eternal flute.

 

Seventy-five percent of the expansive radiation of the Lord is manifested in the spiritual sky (tripäd-vibhüti), and twenty-five percent of His personal radiation comprehends the entire expansion of the material universes. This is also explained and stated in the Bhagavad-gétä (10.42).

 

Thus the seventy-five percent expansion of His radiation is called His internal energy, whereas the twenty-five percent expansion is called the external energy of the Lord.

 

The living entities, who are residents of the spiritual as well as the material expansions, are His marginal energy (taöastha-çakti), and they are at liberty to live in either of the energies, external or internal. Those who live within the spiritual expansion of the Lord are called liberated souls, whereas the residents of the external expansion are called the conditioned souls.

 

We can just make an estimate of the number of the residents of the internal expansions in comparison with the number of residents in the external energy and may easily conclude that the liberated souls are far more numerous than the conditioned souls.

 

 

RTW 2.8:

 

The Supreme Lord possesses two main energies, the material energy and the spiritual energy. The Vaikuëöha planets are a product of the spiritual energy of the Lord. The living entities belong to this spiritual energy, but because they can reside in either the spiritual world or the material world, even though they are originally spiritual they are designated as taöastha-çakti, or “marginal potency.”

 

 

 

BS 5.21:

 

The same jéva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency.

 

 

PURPORT

 

Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jévas. The jévas are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are, therefore, not perishable like mundane things. Jévas, being particles of Godhead’s effulgent rays, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the Divinity. Hence jévas are identical with the principles of knowledge, knower, egoism, enjoyer, meditator and doer.

 

Kåñëa is the all-pervading, all-extending Supreme Lord; while jévas have a different nature from His, being His atomic particles. That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the eternal master and jévas are His eternal servants. Jévas have also sufficient eligibility in respect of the mellow quality of the Divinity. Apareyam itas tv anyäà prakåtià viddhi me paräm.

 

By this verse of the Gétä it is made known that jévas are His transcendental potency. All the qualities of the unalloyed soul are above the eightfold qualities such as egotism, etc., pertaining to His acit potency. Hence the jéva potency. though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Mäyä. This potency has another name, viz., taöasthä or marginal potency,

being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude.

 

But so long as he remains submissive to Kåñëa, the Lord of Mäyä, he is not liable to the influence of Mäyä. The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.

 

 

Bs 5.44:

 

The external potency Mäyä who is of the nature of the shadow of the cit potency, is worshiped by all people as Durgä, the creating, preserving and destroying agency of this mundane world. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda in accordance with whose will Durgä conducts herself.

 

 

PURPORT

 

(The aforesaid presiding deity of Devé-dhäma is being described.) The world, in which Brahmä takes his stand and hymns the Lord of Goloka, is Devé-dhäma consisting of the fourteen worlds and Durgä is its presiding deity.

 

She is ten-armed, representing the tenfold fruitive activities. She rides on the lion, representing her heroic prowess. She tramples down Mahéñäsura, representing the subduer of vices. She is the mother of two sons, Kärttikeya and Gaëeça, representing beauty and success.

 

She is placed between Lakñmé and Sarasvaté, representing mundane opulence and mundane knowledge. She is armed with the twenty weapons, representing the various pious activities enjoined by the Vedas for suppression of vices. She holds the snake, representing the beauty of destructive time.

 

Such is Durgä possessing all these manifold forms. Durgä is possessed of durga, which means a prison house. When jévas begotten of the marginal potency (taöasthä çakti) forget the service of Kåñëa they are confined in the mundane prison house, the citadel of Durgä. The wheel of karma is the instrument of punishment at this place. The work of purifying these penalized jévas is the duty devolved upon Durgä. She is incessantly engaged in discharging the same by the will of Govinda.

 

When, luckily. the forgetfulness of Govinda on the part of imprisoned jévas is remarked by them by coming in contact with self-realized souls and their natural aptitude for the loving service of Kåñëa is aroused, Durgä herself then becomes the agency of their deliverance by the will of Govinda.

 

So it behooves everybody to obtain the guileless grace of Durgä, the mistress of this prison house, by propitiating her with the selfless service of Kåñëa. The boons received from Durgä in the shape of wealth, property, recovery from illness, of wife and sons, should be realized as the deluding kindness of Durgä.

 

The mundane psychical jubilations of daça-mahä-vidyä, the ten goddesses or forms of Durgä, are elaborated for the delusion of the fettered souls of this world. Jéva is a spiritual atomic part of Kåñëa. When he forgets his service of Kåñëa he is at once deflected by the attracting power of Mäyä in this world, who throws him into the whirlpool of mundane fruitive activity (karma) by confining him in a gross body constituted by the five material elements, their five attributes and eleven senses, resembling the garb of a prisoner.

 

In this whirlpool jéva has experience of happiness and miseries, heaven and hell. Besides this, there is a subtle body. consisting of the mind, intelligence and ego, inside the gross body. By means of the subtle body. the jéva forsakes one gross body and takes recourse to another.

 

The jéva cannot get rid of the subtle body. full of nescience and evil desires, unless and until he is liberated. On getting rid of the subtle body he bathes in the Virajä and goes up to Hari-dhäma. Such are the duties performed by Durgä in accordance with the will of Govinda. In the Bhägavata çloka, vilajyamänayä... durdhiyaù—the relationship between Durgä and the conditioned souls has been described.

 

Durgä, worshiped by the people of this mundane world, is the Durgä described above. But the spiritual Durgä, mentioned in the mantra which is the outer covering of the spiritual realm of the Supreme Lord, is the eternal maidservant of Kåñëa and is, therefore, the transcendental reality whose shadow, the Durgä of this world, functions in this mundane world as her maidservant. (Vide the purport of çloka 3.)

 

 

 

SC 10:

 

Due to repeated birth and death in so many material bodies, we have all forgotten that we are part and parcel of God, that we have an intimate relationship with Him, and that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world. It is very difficult to exactly pinpoint the origin of this forgetfulness.

 

But even though we have forgotten Him since time immemorial, Kåñëa is so merciful that to remind us of our spiritual identity and our oneness with Him as His parts, He comes personally and teaches us what we have forgotten. And when He departs He leaves behind the scripture, especially the Bhagavad-gétä, where He requests, sarva-dharmän parityajya mäm ekaà çaraëaà vraja: “Please give up all your nonsense and surrender unto Me. I shall give you all protection.” (Bhagavad-gétä 18.66)

 

Kåñëa is the father of all living entities. He is not happy that all these souls in the material world are rotting like hogs. Therefore He sends His representatives. In the case of Lord Jesus Christ, Kåñëa sent His son. Lord Jesus claimed to be the son of God. Everyone is a son of God, but this son was an especially favorite son, and he was sent to a particular place to reclaim the conditioned souls back home, back to Godhead.

 

But if the conditioned souls insist on staying here, what can Kåñëa or His servant do? They allow us to go on with our materialistic activities, because the first condition for getting out of the material prison house is that we must desire to get out.

 

When we finally become disgusted with our predicament, we pray, “My dear Lord, I have served lust, anger, and greed for so long, but they are still unsatisfied, and now I have become disgusted with serving them. Now, my dear Lord Kåñëa, my intelligence is awakened, and I have come to You. Please engage me in Your service.”

 

The living entity is the marginal energy (tatañöha-çakti) of the Lord, which means he can choose to be controlled by Kåñëa’s inferior, material energy or His superior, spiritual energy. We devotees have chosen to come to Kåñëa consciousness.

 

In other words, we have agreed to surrender to Kåñëa and submit to the protection of His internal, spiritual energy. Surrender to Kåñëa begins with chanting the Hare Kåñëa mantra: Hare Kåñëa, Hare Kåñëa, Kåñëa Kåñëa, Hare Hare/ Hare Räma, Hare Räma, Räma Räma, Hare Hare.

 

The word Hare indicates the devotional energy of Kåñëa, Kåñëa means “the all-attractive Supreme Personality of Godhead,” and Räma means “the Supreme Enjoyer.”

But there are many who will not come, because they do not agree to come under the control of Kåñëa’s spiritual energy.

 

But Kåñëa does not interfere. He says, “You may remain in the material world or come to Me—whatever you like.” We have been given minute independence and the intelligence to discriminate between what to do and what not to do.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Realist's posting #116 is a perfectly drafted exposition. Realist, You should immediately post it as its own thread and/or add it to the "Advaita Thread".

 

I thank you for your lucide delineation of "Jiva-tattva" --and thus the path of the Jivatma's sojourn afar from Krishna's side..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘originally everyone (all marginal living entities) is nitya-siddha’.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

Our original position is eternal, we are all eternally nitya-siddha which IS our original and eternal position, presently covered while we dream away in the material creation.

The Brahmajyoti or Krsna’s effulgence, IS the entire creation, divided up into three zones of conscious thought, from devotional activity in the Vaikunthas, to conditioned activity in the mahat-tattva, to inactivity in the dormant dreamless state - All are aspects of the Brahmajyoti

These different aspects of the Brahmajyoti can be achieved or experienced by free will and choice however, ONLY Krsna's abode and the Vaikunthas, that make up 75% of the Brahmajyoti, Spiritual Sky or creation, are without end and situated in the personal active 'eternal present' of Krsna's perpetual pastimes.

The other 25% of the Brahmajyoti is made up of those who have chosen to forgotten their nitya -siddha body in the 'eternal present' and have entered that part of creation known as the perishable mahat-tattva and later on may enter the temporary impersonal Brahman, both in a 'dream consciousness' known as the baddha-jiva.

This devotional active original fullness of the Brahmajyoti is eternal personal, which means it is made up of ALL living entities that are perpetually represented there in their perpetual nitya-siddha body serving Krsna

For a living entity, who has transmigrated through the lower species to the human biological body, simply means that the living entity had FIRST chosen to ‘consciously (like in a dream), fall down from Krsnaloka, long, long, long ago, from also the eternal body that is their real perpetual ‘self’ (nitya-siddha) whose only activity there is serving Krsna or God.

This was achieved by free will and choice; the marginal living entity therefore is able to leave Goloka ‘consciously’ as their secondary lower baddha-jiva consciousness and travel to the heavenly planets within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

The baddha-jiva may then travel further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets, and the then to lower species of biological life.

Some baddha-jivas may also take shelter in the dormant aspect of their own baddha-jiva consciousness that is collectively, along with other baddha-jivas who have also chosen the dreamless dream state, known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahman effulgence

The impersonal characteristic of the Brahmajyoti or Brahman IS the nitya-baddha souls in a collective of souls that IS the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

The brahmajyoti is full of jiva-souls; the word sarva-gatah means life IS the Brahmajyoti and is everywhere. So, what is the Brahmajyoti?

The Brahmajyoti or Krsna’s effulgence, IS the entire creation, divided up into three zones of conscious thought, from devotional activity in the Vaikunthas, to conditioned activity in the mahat-tattva, to inactivity in the dormant dreamless state - All are aspects of the Brahmajyoti

1.The Vaikunthas and Krsnaloka those are always active in service to Krsna or Vishnu

2. The mahat-tattva or material creation of Maha-Vishnu that is where the marginal living entity can CHOOSE to go to lead their own way of life without Krsna

3. When those who have entered the mahat-tattva become fed up with the temporary frustrating nature of the material world and the vessels or bodies they move around in, they often seek an inactive dormant state of consciousness.

They only seek out such an end to their existence because they still have no memory or recollection of their eternal body in Krsnaloka.

Therefore, due to this ignorant state the baddha-jiva is in, they choose to learn through the yogic process, to ‘close their consciousness down’ and stop the generation of thought. (which can be achieved, but is also a temporary dormant 'state of the baddha-jiva's consciousness".

This dormant conscious state of the baddha-jiva is known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti, which means it is the ‘inactive ‘state of consciousness of the souls that make up and IS the Personal Brahmajyoti – hence its reflection is the impersonal aspect of that same Brahmajyoti.

 

So we should all try to understand our original position that is our eternal identity in Krsnaloka', as Prabhupada would say’.

Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Krishna Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Krsnaloka. There are so many things that Vedic sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama (Krsnaloka), due to the 'eternal presents', where there is no past or future, these things will be seen in another way.

What is that other way that many say is conceivable to understand?

The simple answer is, on that level or ‘seeing things in an other way’, is the material creation, of trillion upon trillions of years and life times, will appear no-more than a moment of dreaming in Krsnaloka.

“Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

No one like a cowherd boy, lies down and sleeps in Goloka, then dreams they are in the material world. No, it is not like that.

 

 

 

WHY??

 

 

The cow herd boy laying down sleeping and then dreams, in no way represents how the living entity comes down 'sub-consciously' from their perpetual nitya-siddha body to the material creation as their baddha-jiva dreaming conscious state.

Actually because of the ‘concept of time’, there are really no two states of consciousness, which means there is really no sub conscious secondary self, even though it is explained that way. Within the 'eternal presents' there is only one 'concept of time' and 'one eternal nitya siddha form of each marginal living being' that is eternally present in Goloka or Krsnaloka.

What is really going on is to do with time, the time that separates the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka from the divided time of ‘past, present and future of the mahat-tattva.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

 

 

The final proof, as clearly explained by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, is that all jiva/souls or marginal living entities are originally (Which means eternally when refering to the Kingdom of God) , serving Krishna perpetually as their full devotional bodily form, but have presently, due to choice, forgotten their real eternal vigraha (form) svarupa (devotional body) that is always present in Krsnaloka.

This means all living entities have an imperishable bodily form called ‘svarupa’ which is the full potential and expression of all marginal living beings who are all within the ‘eternal present’ of time and space, devoid of past and future within Gods eternal Kingdom known as Goloka Vrndavana or Krsnaloka right now.

 

Within that unending world, all living entities are perpetually existing, which means they are always present there in ‘the eternal present’ without the concept of past and future as their bodily (vigraha) svarupa (devotional personality) form, whom are the eternal servants of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna. Therefore, ALL living entities were created as sat, chit, ananda in the form of eternal vigraha in the beginning (which paradoxically was beginningless).

In this way, the original residence of all living entities (marginal beings) is their original home Goloka-Vrndavana or Krsnaloka, which is the imperishable Kingdom of God.

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'

The resulting paradox is that while one is in the material world, they are actually in the material world because not only do they have no memory of their 'eternal svarupa' body, but also they have consciously separated themselves from the eternal present’ where their real eternal bodily self resides.

It's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended within the eternal present because of consciously falling out of sync with the ETERNAL PRESENT’ of Krsnaloka where their 'permanent 'real' bodily self is serving Krsna. (At least it is this way to those who have fallen from the eternal present realm)

But actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates nothing is ever suspended there.

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time.

 

Actually, when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present’, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

1. The 'eternal present' in the imperishable Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka Planets, can never be compared to the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu where the time span of a trillion mahat-tattva material universes, that seem an almost eternity in material time, would only appear no more than a mere moment of time in the eternal Kingdom of God and selfless devotion (Vaikuntha)

2. And the divided time of 'past, present and future' of the perishable mahat-tattva, that has a further distortions of time and space in the higher, middle and lower material planetary systems, were there is even more dimensions of material time and space within the mahat-tattva, different again from our experience and perception of time on our middle earth planet.

 

 

 

Sarva