Definition Of Diksha

[AncientMariner]

 

the personality cult surrounding Prabhupada was (and still is) tremendous, but that is the fault of his groupie disciples, not the GV tradition. As it was said earlier by the prabhu quoting HBV:

 

"In this description the whole process is summarized by saying that the only necessary and indeed essential act in initiation, is the speaking or giving of the mantra, (not the Hare Krishna mantra which is referred to correctly as Hari nam and not mantra) but 'Klim Krishnaya Govindaya Gopijanavallabhaya Svaha', by the guru into the disciple's ear (Hari-bhakti-vilasa 2.243-6)"

 

That is the essence of diksa, not some book knowledge, or theoretical understanding of our philosophy. People who do not understand that point have much to learn and realize.

 

 

What exactly happens when the guru whispers in your ear?

[Kulapavana]

 

What exactly happens when the guru whispers in your ear?

 

You get the divine vibration (shabda brahman) of mantras which bestow direct personal relationship with Krsna. As your perception of these mantras gradually develops, the window to the spiritual world opens more and more, eventually enabling you to step into that spiritual reality.

[cbrahma]

 

You get the divine vibration (shabda brahman) of mantras which bestow direct personal relationship with Krsna. As your perception of these mantras gradually develops, the window to the spiritual world opens more and more, eventually enabling you to step into that spiritual reality.

Oh no! So many Prabhupada disciples didn't get the whisper. In fact some of them were initiated by proxy (ritvik). I guess the magic connection didn't take.

[theist]

 

Oh no! So many Prabhupada disciples didn't get the whisper. In fact some of them were initiated by proxy (ritvik). I guess the magic connection didn't take.

 

And those that did got the whisper via cassett tape. Better a cassett tape from a real devotee than a direct whisper from a charelton.

[Kulapavana]

 

Oh no! So many Prabhupada disciples didn't get the whisper. In fact some of them were initiated by proxy (ritvik). I guess the magic connection didn't take.

 

Krsna consciousness is full of magic. Those who think that just going on the pick and mumbling out their rounds every day is good enough to enter Goloka will probably miss the magic bus...

 

Why do you mock what you clearly do not understand? For countless generations devotees considered the Gayatri Mantra their greatest treasure and now disciples of Srila Prabhupada call such people 'mundane religionists' ... you bring shame to your guru.

[cbrahma]

 

Krsna consciousness is full of magic. Those who think that just going on the pick and mumbling out their rounds every day is good enough to enter Goloka will probably miss the magic bus...

 

Why do you mock what you clearly do not understand? For countless generations devotees considered the Gayatri Mantra their greatest treasure and now disciples of Srila Prabhupada call such people 'mundane religionists' ... you bring shame to your guru.

Spare me your esoteric gambit. The formality has no potency in itself. It is what is symbolizes that matters, the underlying relationship between the guru and the disciple which by your religionist standards Prabhupada was also mocking.

[♣♣♣]

cbrahma,

 

Your speculative understanding of diksha is in your mind alone and not supported by any Gaudiya Vaishnava scripture, Senior Vaishnava or Sanga be it Iskcon, GM or Traditional GV.

 

It underlines and mocks the entire Gaudiya tradition, Sampradaya, and direct associates of Sri Chaitanya as well as the six Gosvamis themselves and Hari Bhakti vilasa.

 

Who should we accept them or you who is not even a disciple of ACBS or anyone for that matter?

[cbrahma]

 

cbrahma,

 

Your speculative understanding of diksha is in your mind alone and not supported by any Gaudiya Vaishnava scripture, Senior Vaishnava or Sanga be it Iskcon, GM or Traditional GV.

 

It underlines and mocks the entire Gaudiya tradition, Sampradaya, and direct associates of Sri Chaitanya as well as the six Gosvamis themselves and Hari Bhakti vilasa.

 

Who should we accept them or you who is not even a disciple of ACBS or anyone for that matter?

There is no speculation required. You don't mystify me with your 'I'm initiated so I have the secret knowledge' - that's called the Emperor's clothes. I've supported everything I've said with facts and quotes from the acaryas.

The nature of guru-tattva only requires a certain modicum of intelligence and the right senior authorities which you ain't.

 

"Initiation is a formality. If you are serious, that is real initiation. My touch is simply a formality. It is your determination. That is initiation."

(morning walk, Seattle, 02/10/68)

 

What part of 'my touch is simply a formality' do you not understand. No matter how a religionist would like to have it - the false prestige of formal diksa just doesn't make the grade . Fire sacrifice or no fire sacrifice, whisper or no whisper.

[suchandra]

 

There is no speculation required. You don't mystify me with your 'I'm initiated so I have the secret knowledge' - that's called the Emperor's clothes. I've supported everything I've said with facts and quotes from the acaryas.

The nature of guru-tattva only requires a certain modicum of intelligence and the right senior authorities which you ain't.

 

What part of 'my touch is simply a formality' do you not understand.

 

If things look complicated the answer is in most cases simple. Present Vaishnava institutions have installed a toll-gate and exclusive right to give diksha. As soon their absolute monopol is called into question you're in trouble.

 

"Sacha bole tomare lata… jagat harai dhana kali-yuga dukha lalge haspai. This is a Hindi verse by one devotee that this Kali-yuga is so abominable that if you speak truth, then people will come with some rod to beat you. But if you cheat them, bluff them. they’ll be bewildered, they’ll like it."

 

Bhagavad-gītā 6.25-29

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Los Angeles, February 18, 1969

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/690218BG.LA.htm

[♣♣♣]

I guess you never heard of 'diksha mantras' or 'guru pranali', sounds like you never heard of Hari Bhakti Vilasa even.

 

Prabupada said many things in letters and morning walks, where he encouraged people in various ways. If you were there on many of these walks perhaps you would know, but I KNOW you were not.

 

But if you look into his books you will see his conclusive instructions in this regard, and one of those instruction was for us to familierize ourselves with the writings and treaching of the Gosvamis IF we want to advance in spiritual life. I'm sorry but people like you who never received diksha from Prabupada and misconstrue his words are an insult to him.

 

You act like you know what your talking about, but really are just hung up on your self and your inappropriate misinterpretations.

 

Go get some sanga of Vaishnavas, have you ever even BEEN to India or Braja?

 

I'm sure you will avoid answering this, regardless..do yourself a favor and go experience what it means to be with real Vaishnavas who are part of Sri Chaitanyas line and stop making up your own religion which is what it boils down to.

 

Srila Prabupada spoke about the importance of Guru-parampara over and over again and the need to take proper diksha within that, and he explained that a Guru-Parampara meant an unbroken line of disciplic sucession.

 

Sorry but just because you can act arrogant and insulting does not mean you are right.

 

[♣♣♣]

Ok here's a letter for you:

 

76-08-20 Letter: Ajita

The names and beads duly chanted upon by your local GBC man, may be given at a fire yajna. The brahmana thread and gayatri mantra which must be heard through the right ear, may also be given at the fire yajna. All initiated disciples must chant 16 rounds a day without fail and observe the four regulative principles very strictly. The brahmanas must become learned in the sastras and very clean internally and externally by regularly bathing with water and the holy name. A brahmana must be fixed up in understanding of brahmana. One should not take it cheaply. This initiation is very serious and one should endeavor to follow the orders of the spiritual master with great determination. Daksina should also be offered when one presents oneself for initiation.

 

[♣♣♣]

February 1, 1968, Los Angeles

Interviewer: You spoke of initiation. What is that initiation?

Prabhupada: Initiation means formally acceptance of the line of activities in Krsna consciousness. Before that, before initiation, we invite everyone to come and sit down with us, chant, dance, take prasadam, hear philosophy. And if he understands, "Oh, this is very nice," then he offers himself to be initiated. Then we accept. Then we impose this restriction that "If you want to be initiated..."

[♣♣♣]

[suchandra]

 

I guess you never heard of 'diksha mantras' or 'guru pranali', sounds like you never heard of Hari Bhakti Vilasa even.

 

Prabupada said many things in letters and morning walks, where he encouraged people in various ways. If you were there on many of these walks perhaps you would know, but I KNOW you were not.

 

But if you look into his books you will see his conclusive instructions in this regard, and one of those instruction was for us to familierize ourselves with the writings and treaching of the Gosvamis IF we want to advance in spiritual life. I'm sorry but people like you who never received diksha from Prabupada and misconstrue his words are an insult to him.

 

You act like you know what your talking about, but really are just hung up on your self and your inappropriate misinterpretations.

 

Go get some sanga of Vaishnavas, have you ever even BEEN to India or Braja?

 

I'm sure you will avoid answering this, regardless..do yourself a favor and go experience what it means to be with real Vaishnavas who are part of Sri Chaitanyas line and stop making up your own religion which is what it boils down to.

 

Srila Prabupada spoke about the importance of Guru-parampara over and over again and the need to take proper diksha within that, and he explained that a Guru-Parampara meant an unbroken line of disciplic sucession.

 

Sorry but just because you can act arrogant and insulting does not mean you are right.

 

Good point, nice post. But this I was saying from begin with. Prabhupada's books contain spiritual knowledge, di, divyam jnanam and what does spiritual knowledge - it destroys sin, ksha. As soon someone sincerely reads Prabhupada's books, applies the instructions in his life and only associates with fixed up Vaishnavas he surely attains the ultimate goal of bhakti-yoga, unalloyed love of Krsna.

 

"Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu accepts the Srimad-Bhagavata Purana as the spotless literature for understanding the Lord, and He preaches that the ultimate goal of life for all human beings is to attain the stage of prema, or love of God. Many devotees of Lord Caitanya like Srila Vrndavana dāsa Thakura, Sri Locana dāsa Thakura, Srīla Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvamī, Sri Kavikarṇapura, Sri Prabodhananda Sarasvatī, Srī Rupa Gosvami, Sri Sanatana Gosvami, Srila Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami, Srila Jiva Gosvami, Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami and in this latter age within two hundred years, Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti, Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana, Sri Syamananda Gosvami, Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and at last Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura - our spiritual master - and many other great and renowned scholars and devotees of the Lord have prepared voluminous books and literatures on the life and precepts of the Lord. Such literatures are all based on the sastras like the Vedas, Puranas, Upanisads, Ramayana, Mahabharata and other histories and authentic literatures approved by the recognized acaryas. They are unique in composition and unrivaled in presentation, and they are full of transcendental knowledge. Unfortunately the people of the world are still ignorant of them, but when these literatures, which are mostly in Sanskrit and Bengali, come to light the world and when they are presented before thinking people, then India’s glory and the message of love will overflood this morbid world, which is vainly searching after peace and prosperity by various illusory methods not approved by the ācāryas in the chain of disciplic succession. "

 

 

Srimad Bhagavatam Introduction

[♣♣♣]

Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.10) f:

ato gurum pranamyaivam sarva-svam vinivedya ca

grhniyad vaisnavam mantram diksa-purvam vidhanatah

"'It is the duty of every human being to surrender to a bona fide spiritual master. Giving him everything-body, mind and intelligence-one must take Vaisnava initiation from him."

[♣♣♣]

 

cbrahma says:

"The formality has no potency in itself."

 

You obvioulsy were never part of one, otherwise you could not say such a thing! We who did on the other hand know differently.

 

[suchandra]

 

Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.10) f:

ato gurum pranamyaivam sarva-svam vinivedya ca

grhniyad vaisnavam mantram diksa-purvam vidhanatah

"'It is the duty of every human being to surrender to a bona fide spiritual master. Giving him everything-body, mind and intelligence-one must take Vaisnava initiation from him."

The name of Krishna and Krishna are nondifferent, but we cannot realize this intellectually. We have to practice chanting Hare Krishna to realize it. When we actually advance in devotional service and chant the Hare Krishna maha-mantra offenselessly, we will realize that Krishna and His name are nondifferent. (Teachings of Lord Kapiladeva p. 12)

Similarly, we cannot realize intellectually that Prabhupada's books are nondifferent from Srila Prabhupada. You have to practice and actually read and study and fully apply in your life what you have read. Only then you will realize that Prabhupada and his books are nondifferent.

 

"I have instructed everything in my books."

 

 

Srila Prabhupada wrote and published over 80 volumes of spiritual literature which he considered to be his most important contribution. Despite the heavy demands of establishing and managing a worldwide movement, Srila Prabhupada never failed to rise early in the morning to perform his beloved writing work. He applied great devotion and care in translating the ancient Vedic literatures into English from the original Sanskrit and Bengali languages. He would then dictate his famous "Bhaktivedanta Purports," further explaining the meaning of each verse and its relevance to the modern age. His books are highly acclaimed by scholars and students alike (see reviews below). They have been translated into more than 60 languages and have been sold in the hundreds of millions. The PrabhupadaConnection encourages everyone to take advantage of these timeless literatures which are so full of spiritual knowledge and potency.

.

 

 

Books by

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

 

.

Bhagavad-gita As It Is

Srimad-Bhagavatam, cantos 1-10, (29 vols.)

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta (17 vols.)

Teachings of Lord Caitanya

The Nectar of Devotion

Sri Isopanisad

Easy Journey to Other Planets

Krsna Consciousness: The Topmost Yoga System

Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead (3 vols.)

Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers

Dialectical Spiritualism -- A Vedic View of Western Philosophy

Teachings of Lord Kapila, the Son of Devahuti

Transcendental Teachings of Prahlad Maharaja

Teachings of Queen Kunti

Krsna, the Reservoir of Pleasure

The Science of Self-Realization

The Path of Perfection

Life Comes From Life

The Perfection of Yoga

Beyond Birth and Death

On the Way to Krsna

Raja-vidya: The King of Knowledge

Elevation to Krsna Consciousness

Krsna Consciousness: The Matchless Gift

Back to Godhead magazine (founder)

.

 

(A complete catalog is available from the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust.)

[theist]

 

cbrahma says:

"The formality has no potency in itself."

 

You obvioulsy were never part of one, otherwise you could not say such a thing! We who did on the other hand know differently.

 

You are claiming to be a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and after all this time you still cannot see any deeper than this?

 

You find fault in cbrahma's statement? Then perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us by explaining what potency the formality has in and of itself, that is without the internal meaning.

 

Please be very specific.

[♣♣♣]

'Like A lightening Bolt'

Hows that?

 

you never were part of one either I guess and want to minimize all who did too huh.

 

Sad indeed.

 

[krsna]

 

 

[krsna]

 

 

Is there a difference between those who received directlty in his manifest presence and those who received via his representatives ritvik priests who performed the ceremony on his behalf?

[Kulapavana]

 

Spare me your esoteric gambit. The formality has no potency in itself. It is what is symbolizes that matters, the underlying relationship between the guru and the disciple which by your religionist standards Prabhupada was also mocking.

 

Is receiving a Gayatri mantra a formality to you? Or a symbolic act? Like I said, you have no clue what you are talking about, despite reading Prabhupada's books for years.

[cbrahma]

 

Is receiving a Gayatri mantra a formality to you? Or a symbolic act? Like I said, you have no clue what you are talking about, despite reading Prabhupada's books for years.

You were talking about whispers. I have attended diksas where there is no such thing. Prabhupada sometimes did it by tape. In fact there doesn't even have to be a fire sacrifice. According to you those Prabhupada disciples who had hari-nama initiation were not really Prabhupada's disicples. Also under this concept unless one receives Gayatri, one really will not be able to be self-realized and attain bhakti.

If this is a Gaudiya-Vaisnava idea, then Lord Caitanya's mission is doomed because there is no point in spreading the Holy Name to every town and village unless all the residents have been formally initiated.

[cbrahma]

 

 

cbrahma says:

"The formality has no potency in itself."

 

You obvioulsy were never part of one, otherwise you could not say such a thing! We who did on the other hand know differently.

 

 

Part of one? What is that supposed to mean? You beg the question by claiming that unless there is a formal ceremony there is no initiation. There are Prabhuapda disciples who never saw Prabhupada personally but who were initiated by ritvik. There is no mystery here. Its not like there is an electric current that passes, an idea that Prabhupada made fun of, on more than one occasion.

The same guru whose picture you have provided has confirmed this idea

that ---

 

"Initiation is a formality. If you are serious, that is real initiation. My touch is simply a formality. It is your determination. That is initiation." (SP morning walk, Seattle, 02/10/68)

Most Prabhupda disciples that I've met don't play the religious game. They don't lord over their diksa like there's some special 'zap' that happened that I can't possibly understand and that automatically guarantees that they are 'in the know'. That's what the Maharishis and bogi yogis do.

[Kulapavana]

 

According to you those Prabhupada disciples who had hari-nama initiation were not really Prabhupada's disicples. Also under this concept unless one receives Gayatri, one really will not be able to be self-realized and attain bhakti.

If this is a Gaudiya-Vaisnava idea, then Lord Caitanya's mission is doomed because there is no point in spreading the Holy Name to every town and village unless all the residents have been formally initiated.

 

1.They were his disciples, but they did not receive diksa from him.

 

2. There are various levels of self realization and bhakti, and yes, some of them are obtainable primarily through the Gayatri mantras.

 

3. Again, we are talking about degrees of bhakti and the Lord's leela. Most of Lord Caitanya's associates received diksa from various gurus but they were His eternal associates. Diksa is important for those who do the missionary work for Lord Caitanya. Much more is expected of them than from the masses.