Definition Of Diksha

[AncientMariner]

"Diksa is important for those who do the missionary work for Lord Caitanya."

 

 

That statement I can agree with. If you are going to be a guru that accepts disciples etc. then it does seem pretty mandatory to take some sort of formal ceremony even if you know it is just a formality just to give you the credibility within that tradition but as far as realization being dependant on a "zap" from a formal religous ceremony I am not sure I can buy that one. Just my opinion.

[Kulapavana]

 

You beg the question by claiming that unless there is a formal ceremony there is no initiation. There are Prabhuapda disciples who never saw Prabhupada personally but who were initiated by ritvik. There is no mystery here. Its not like there is an electric current that passes, an idea that Prabhupada made fun of, on more than one occasion.

 

 

The 'electric current' Prabhupada made fun of referred to something different: a cheap idea of automatic transfer of knowledge and potency from guru to disciple during initiation.

 

And Prabhupada was also comforting disciples who were initiated by a proxy because there simply was not enough time to do it all directly. You think that these ceremonies were a mere formality to the new initiates??? That was often the most cherished day of their lives!!! And in your impudence you minimize the value and importance of such an event! That proves again you do not understand what you are reading in Prabhupada's books.

[cbrahma]

 

1.They were his disciples, but they did not receive diksa from him.

So one can have a spiritual master and not be initiated, satisfying the requirement given in the Gita.

 

 

2. There are various levels of self realization and bhakti, and yes, some of them are obtainable primarily through the Gayatri mantras.

 

Oh come on now o learned and initiated sage- Where in the Vedas - and especially in the teachings of Lord Caitanya does it say one cannot achieve love of god without Gayatri?

 

 

3. Again, we are talking about degrees of bhakti and the Lord's leela. Most of Lord Caitanya's associates received diksa from various gurus but they were His eternal associates. Diksa is important for those who do the missionary work for Lord Caitanya. Much more is expected of them than from the masses.

The masses? Somebody who chants the presribed rounds and follows the regulative principles - somebody who is a disciple but not initiated is one the masses?

 

Madhya 15.108 The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya

In other words, the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra is so powerful that it does not depend on official initiation, but if one is initiated and engages in pancaratra-vidhi (Deity worship), his Krsna consciousness will awaken very soon, and his identification with the material world will be vanquished. The more one is freed from material identification, the more one can realize that the spirit soul is qualitatively as good as the Supreme Soul. At such a time, when one is situated on the absolute platform, he can understand that the holy name of the Lord and the Lord Himself are identical. At that stage of realization, the holy name of the Lord, the Hare Krsna mantra, cannot be identified with any material sound. If one accepts the Hare Krsna maha-mantra as a material vibration, he falls down. One should worship and chant the holy name of the Lord by accepting it as the Lord Himself. One should therefore be initiated properly according to revealed scriptures under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. Although chanting the holy name is good for both the conditioned and liberated soul, it is especially beneficial to the conditioned soul because by chanting it one is liberated. When a person who chants the holy name is liberated, he attains the ultimate perfection by returning home, back to Godhead.

 

How long must you resist the truth coming from the mouth of the bona fide spiritual master? You obviously have no real spiritual understanding of the process of bhakti or you would not tie it necessarily to a formal religious system.

Bhaktivinode Thakur and his disciples did not.

[cbrahma]

 

The 'electric current' Prabhupada made fun of referred to something different: a cheap idea of automatic transfer of knowledge and potency from guru to disciple during initiation.

 

And Prabhupada was also comforting disciples who were initiated by a proxy because there simply was not enough time to do it all directly. You think that these ceremonies were a mere formality to the new initiates??? That was often the most cherished day of their lives!!! And in your impudence you minimize the value and importance of such an event! That proves again you do not understand what you are reading in Prabhupada's books.

 

It is what the ceremony represents that is important - the commitment of the disciple to follow the instructions of the spiritual master. How many disciples have had the ceremony and subsequently wreaked havoc throughout ISKCON with their criminal behavior?

Yes a formality is a formality pure and simple. You cling to the form rather than the substance because you are a religionist. You need the false prestige - of "I am initiated. You are not. I have a higher level of realization.". How cheap is that.

[Kulapavana]

 

If you are going to be a guru that accepts disciples etc. then it does seem pretty mandatory to take some sort of formal ceremony even if you know it is just a formality just to give you the credibility within that tradition but as far as realization being dependant on a "zap" from a formal religous ceremony I am not sure I can buy that one. Just my opinion.

 

There is no 'zap'. Mantra is not a zap. It is a magical seed, a packet you have to open and gradually learn how to use - it may take decades for you to do that. And you can only receive it person-to-person, from a proper link in a proper sampradaya. What is so hard to understand or accept?

[cbrahma]

 

There is no 'zap'. Mantra is not a zap. It is a magical seed, a packet you have to open and gradually learn how to use - it may take decades for you to do that. And you can only receive it person-to-person, from a proper link in a proper sampradaya. What is so hard to understand or accept?

No the mantra is a sound vibration that can be said without a whispering into somebody's ear and a fire sacrifice. You are switching rails here. The point of contention is not the mantra - but the formal ritual in which the mantra is given with all the bells and whistles.

[Kulapavana]

 

It is what the ceremony represents that is important - the commitment of the disciple to follow the instructions of the spiritual master. How many disciples have had the ceremony and subsequently wreaked havoc throughout ISKCON with their criminal behavior?

Yes a formality is a formality pure and simple. You cling to the form rather than the substance because you are a religionist. You need the false prestige - of "I am initiated. You are not'. How cheap is that.

 

Wrong again: IF YOU TURN THAT CEREMONY INTO A FORMALITY than it BECOMES a formality. IT IS NEVER A FORMALITY IN ITSELF.

[cbrahma]

 

Wrong again: IF YOU TURN THAT CEREMONY INTO A FORMALITY than it BECOMES a formality. IT IS NEVER A FORMALITY IN ITSELF.

NONSENSE. A CEREMONY IS A FORMALITY BY DEFINITION. You lack spritual understanding. This is the result of your special status is it?

[Kulapavana]

 

No the mantra is a sound vibration that can be said without a whispering into somebody's ear and a fire sacrifice. You are switching rails here. The point of contention is not the mantra - but the formal ritual in which the mantra is given with all the bells and whistles.

 

Wrong again. The mantra - especially the Gayatri mantra - is NOT the 'sound' vibration in the air, reproducible by mechanical means. Hint: Gayatri mantras are never spoken out loud. It is a vibration in the ether, a vibration created by thought, by your consciousness. The taped diksa was another 'compromise of neccessity'.

[Kulapavana]

 

NONSENSE. A CEREMONY IS A FORMALITY BY DEFINITION. You lack spritual understanding. This is the result of your special status is it?

 

I do not claim any special status. And it is your consciousness that turns something valuable into a piece of paper, and vice versa.

[AncientMariner]

 

There is no 'zap'. Mantra is not a zap. It is a magical seed, a packet you have to open and gradually learn how to use - it may take decades for you to do that. And you can only receive it person-to-person, from a proper link in a proper sampradaya. What is so hard to understand or accept?

 

I can understand the concept but your idea of a person to person transfer from a proper link is taking initiation from a guru that eventually falls down and does abominable things. I am not sure I want to undergo such an embarassing thing so I definetly don't feel any need or pressure to run out and get properly initiated.

[cbrahma]

 

Wrong again. The mantra - especially the Gayatri mantra - is NOT the 'sound' vibration in the air, reproducible by mechanical means. Hint: Gayatri mantras are never spoken out loud. It is a vibration in the ether, a vibration created by thought, by your consciousness. The taped diksa was another 'compromise of neccessity'.

 

As described in the Shri Chaitanya Charitamrita, the potency of the Holy Names may be transferred through Shiksha also..diksha vidhi purascharya apeksha na kare...the Holy Names do not necessarily depend upon official initiation but They deliver anyone who hears Them from a bonafide source and chants Them with his or her tongue. Official initiation speedens up the process of deliverance but the deliverance process of the Holy Names does not mandatorily depend on official initiation.

 

Swami Gaurangapada ( an initiated guru)

 

 

Why does this 'mental' chanting not apply to the Maha Mantra?

Never have I heard that it is sufficient to simply think the Maha Mantra.

Are you saying that Gayatri is at a higher platform than the Maha Mantra?

So many chanters of this Gayatri have fallen down . There are lists of examples in the history of ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math. In fact the fall down of brahmanas was a big problem in ISKCON, so much so that

 

Hari-Sauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody should become brahmana.

Hari-Sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

Prabhupada: Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down.

Hari-Sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a ksatriya. You'll be happy.

Hari-Sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...

Prabhupada: No, no.

Hari-Sauri: Unless one is particularly inclined.

 

[forlorn]

hi, i'm forlorn,pls help..im a middle aged widowed woman, strived too hard in life with kids,daughter married and well settled,son recently got married and from then on,totally turned towards his inlaws side? i'm soo upset with his/dil's behaviour.pls help me

[Kulapavana]

 

I can understand the concept but your idea of a person to person transfer from a proper link is taking initiation from a guru that eventually falls down and does abominable things. I am not sure I want to undergo such an embarassing thing so I definetly don't feel any need or pressure to run out and get properly initiated.

 

You actually take initiation from Sri Guru, within a particular sampradaya, from that sampradaya's representative. All this emphasis on a particular guru in Iskcon is somewhat misleading. But you definitely should not take initiation if you are not ready for it. There are plenty of reasons to be cautious.

[cbrahma]

 

Lord Shri Krishna in the Bhagavad Geeta (BG 10:35.) says: " Amongst the chanted mantras, I am the Gayatri" <CENTER>

brihat-säma tathä sämnäm

gäyatri chandasäm aham

mäsänäm märga-shirsho ’ham

ritünäm kusumäkarah</CENTER>

Of the hymns in the Säma Veda I am the Brihat-säma, and of poetry I am the Gäyatri. Of months I am Märgashirsha [November-December], and of seasons I am flower-bearing spring. PURPORT

................In Sanskrit, there are definite rules that regulate poetry; rhyme and meter are not written whimsically, as in much modern poetry. Amongst the regulated poetry, the Gäyatri mantra, which is chanted by the duly qualified brähmanas, is the most prominent. The Gäyatri mantra is mentioned in the Shrimad-Bhägavatam. Because the Gäyatri mantra is especially meant for God realization, it represents the Supreme Lord. This mantra is meant for spiritually advanced people, and when one attains success in chanting it, he can enter into the transcendental position of the Lord. One must first acquire the qualities of the perfectly situated person, the qualities of goodness according to the laws of material nature, in order to chant the Gäyatri mantra. The Gäyatri mantra is very important in Vedic civilization and is considered to be the sound incarnation of Brahman. Brahmä is its initiator, and it is passed down from him in disciplic succession. (Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Bhagavad Gita 10:35. purport.) It is also stated, "....of poetry I am the Gäyatri verse, sung daily by brähmanas."(ACBSP. 12th August 1976. Evening darshan. Tehran, Iran)

 

[Kulapavana]

 

Why does this 'mental' chanting not apply to the Maha Mantra?

Never have I heard that it is sufficient to simply think the Maha Mantra.

 

 

Actually japa is primarily mental, and not audible, even with the Maha-mantra. It is done that way in all sampradayas. Audible chanting of japa helps to stay focused and awake and that is why Prabhupada stressed audible chanting.

[cbrahma]

 

You actually take initiation from Sri Guru, within a particular sampradaya, from that sampradaya's representative. All this emphasis on a particular guru in Iskcon is somewhat misleading. But you definitely should not take initiation if you are not ready for it. There are plenty of reasons to be cautious.

Nobody is ready to be cheated unless that person is a fool or a cheater himself.

It just isn't worth the gamble with the track record of self-proclaimed gurus and disciples.

[cbrahma]

 

Actually japa is primarily mental, and not audible, even with the Maha-mantra. It is done that way in all sampradayas. Audible chanting of japa helps to stay focused and awake and that is why Prabhupada stressed audible chanting.

Prabhupada gave example how to chant japa. No silent mental 'chanting'.

 

 

Madhya 15.108 The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya

The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process. Although initiation may depend on purascarya or purascarana, the actual chanting of the holy name does not depend on purascarya-vidhi, or the regulative principles. If one chants the holy name once without committing an offense, he attains all success. During the chanting of the holy name, the tongue must work. Simply by chanting the holy name, one is immediately delivered. The tongue is sevonmukha-jihva-it is controlled by service. One whose tongue is engaged in tasting material things and also talking about them cannot use the tongue for absolute realization.

 

 

BTW You are wrong. As wrong as anybody who professes to be a spiritually advanced specially anointed individual can be.

[Kulapavana]

 

It just isn't worth the gamble with the track record of self-proclaimed gurus and disciples.

 

I beg to differ with you on that one, and I speak from a direct experience.

 

And to view every Vaishnava guru as a potential fraud and liability to your spiritual life is an offensive paranoia.

[cbrahma]

 

I do not claim any special status. And it is your consciousness that turns something valuable into a piece of paper, and vice versa.

I never mentioned paper. Whether you like it or not. Whether your ego wants to puff itself up on that external event or not - a formality is a formality.

[cbrahma]

 

I beg to differ with you on that one, and I speak from a direct experience.

 

And to view every Vaishnava guru as a potential fraud and liability to your spiritual life is an offensive paranoia.

Right. And your spiritual understanding which contradicts essential teachings of Srila Prabhupad which you have so far side-stepped and ignored, is really impressive.

[Kulapavana]

 

Prabhupada gave example how to chant japa. No silent mental 'chanting'.

 

I know from Prabhupada's personal servants that he often chanted his rounds inaudibly, or even barely moving his lips. Still, Prabhupada's personal preferences in that area do not change the historical facts of our tradition.

 

And you are again confusing the Maha-mantra and the Gayatri mantras in your generalizations.

[cbrahma]

 

I know from Prabhupada's personal servants that he often chanted his rounds inaudibly, or even barely moving his lips. Still, Prabhupada's personal preferences in that area do not change the historical facts of our tradition.

 

And you are again confusing the Maha-mantra and the Gayatri mantras in your generalizations.

I have taken great pains to distinguish the mantras not confuse them. Is this illogic a usual thing with you?

Here you go again speaking on the behalf of all Vaisnavas everywhere. I can believe your monumental claims to absolute knowledge or Prabhupada.

Tough call.

[Kulapavana]

 

And your spiritual understanding which contradicts essential teachings of Srila Prabhupad which you have so far side-stepped and ignored, is really impressive.

 

The essential teachings of SP are those he exemplified by his practical actions, like formally giving diksa to his disciples and insisting that they take it seriously.

[♣♣♣]

Kulapavana,

Don't waste your time with such people, obviously they have never had any real sadhu sanga, don' let them suck you into such idiotic debates.

I myself am out of here, apraradha and sadhu ninda are being comitted here friends.