Definition Of Diksha

[Kulapavana]

 

Prefers or considers it bogus? You seemed to have put a spin on it in NM's favor Beggar. I could be wrong but that is how it seems to me. I had numerous confrontations from NM disciples a few years back on this point and they all quoted NM as saying taped transfer of mantra was bogus and those initiations were not real.

 

Most Vaishnavas outside Iskcon do not think that the Gayatri mantra can be reproduced by a mechanical device, as the mantra is based on the vibration in the ether created by consciousness.

 

Of course it can also be said that if Krsna wants to make a tape recording diksa initiation 'real', He certainly can. Prabhupada used tape recording out of sheer necessity, not mere convenience.

[Beggar]

 

One more question for Beggar. B.R. Sridhar Maharaja said that the gayatri mantra is effective only as an adjunct to the Holy Name to the point of liberation and may not even be necessary at all.

 

I am sure you know the quote and the book I read it in but I cannot remember and am not 100% confident I am quoting it correctly. Can you help me by providing the full quoteword for word as well as it's source.

 

Thanks bro.

 

<center><tt>Sri Guru & His Grace

</tt>Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Deva Goswami

Chapter Nine </center>

<center> <tt>Nama Guru

and

Mantra Guru</tt> </center>

 

 

Mantra: Circle within a Circle

Jiva Goswami has written that the name of Krsna is the principle thing in the gayatri mantra. Within the mantra, there are also so many other words, but the name is the most important. If the name of Krsna is taken away, and replaced with some other name, the whole thing will be rotten. This is the decision of Jiva Goswami. The holy name of Krsna is all in all. The holy name of Krsna is there in the gayatri mantra, and so many other words are couched there. But if Krsna's name is taken away and replaced with the name of Siva, then the whole thing will go to Siva. The holy name is the all-important factor.

The holy name of Krsna is so important that even the gayatri mantra may not be necessary. It is said na ca sat kriya, na dikse na ca purascarya manadilate mantrayam rasana spri hanato sri krsna namatmaka : "One need not undergo all the purificatory processes, or follow the six ritualistic ceremonies mentioned in the Vedas for pious life; one need not even take initiation into the gayatri mantra. If one simply chants the holy name of Krsna without offense, everything will be successful." The holy name of Krsna is the most important consideration. The gayatri mantra may not even be necessary.

We accept the mantra only to help the nama-bhajana, the worship of the holy name. Otherwise, it may not be necessary at all. It has been judged in such a way. The name alone can do everything for a person. lt is full and complete. The mantra helps us to do away with the aparadhas, offenses, and the abhasa, or hazy conceptions in our bhajana. The mantra comes to help us only so far.

An example is given of larger and smaller circles. The holy name of Krsna is the larger circle. It extends from the highest to the lowest. The mantra circle is a smaller circle within the larger circle. The mantra cannot reach to the lowest point. The holy name can extend itself down to the lowest position. The mantra gives us entrance into liberation, and then the name carries us further. This is the nature of our connection with the mantra and the name.

The name extends to the lowest position, to the candalas and yavanas. Everyone can receive the name. But everyone is not eligible for the gayatri mantra. Only after one has reached a developed stage can the mantra be conferred upon him. And the mantra's jurisdiction will be finished when liberation is attained. In the Caitanya-caritamrta (Adi. 7. 73):

krsna-mantra haite habe samsara mocana

krsna-nama haite pabe krsnera carana

"The Krsna gayatri mantra liberates one from repeated birth and death in this world; the holy name of Krsna gives one shelter at the lotus feet of Krsna." The gayatri mantra helps us achieve liberation, and then the mantra retires. After giving us liberation, the mantra is finished. But the name will continue all along, from the lowest to the highest. In chanting the name, there is no mention of any petition--it is an address only. We should not chant with the mentality that, "I want this." We must simply chant the name spontaneously. That will encourage good will in us. So, because the function of the mantra is limited, but the name is all-important, the nama guru will be honored first, and next, the mantra guru, and then the other Vaisnavas.

[cbrahma]

 

There have been systematic attempts of the Iskcon Vaishnavas influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition, to strip Vaishnavism of all it's mysticism and unique character, and to reduce it to yet another Christianity-type belief system. The mantras have become 'prayers', the diksa initiation became optional and symbolic 'baptism', the senior Vaishnava gurus became 'priests'. They claim that all you need is the books (which became 'the Bible') of one and only true 'savior', Srila Prabhupada.

 

It is all bogus, however well intentioned.

 

 

<!-- / message -->

Exclusivity is the byword for religious institutions. Vedanta , sanatana dharma on the other hand is inclusivistic and non-sectarian. It is not a religion in the strict mundane sense of that word with all the paraphenalia and rites appertaining.

On the contrary, it seems that so-called traditionalists want to perpetuate an exclusive institutional 'members-only' concept of Vaisnavism very much like the Catholic Church, or Judaism.

 

I am struck by how similar ISKCON is to a Judao-Christian church/temple, with a tight formal totalitarian control of its members with all the positions and distinctions comparable to bishops, cardinals and rabis.

Big hierarchical authority and formal credentials for membership is very church-y and Judao-Christian. Investing the 'magic' in the rituals rather than the underlying spirituality trivializes the spiritual process and invites religiosity.

Let's not forget how much the Gaudiya Math contributed to its present ecclesiastical structure - gurus under an umbrella of authority called the GBC. In one word -control. Another word - cheating.

 

 

The idea of an organized church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dikes and dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bona-fide spiritual teacher. The people of this world understand preventive systems, they have no idea at all of the unprevented positive eternal life. Neither can there be any earthy contrivance for the permanent preservation of the life eternal on this mundane plane on the popular scale.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur

 

 

The effective silencing of the whole race of pseudo-teachers of religion is the first clear indication of the appearance of the Absolute on the mundane plane. The bona-fide teacher of the Absolute, heralds the Advent of Krishna by his uncompromising campaign against the pseudo-teachers of religion.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur

 

[cbrahma]

 

Most Vaishnavas outside Iskcon do not think that the Gayatri mantra can be reproduced by a mechanical device, as the mantra is based on the vibration in the ether created by consciousness.

 

Of course it can also be said that if Krsna wants to make a tape recording diksa initiation 'real', He certainly can. Prabhupada used tape recording out of sheer necessity, not mere convenience.

According to Gaudiya-Vaisnava siddhanta - the Holy Name , being an attribute of Krsna is non-different from Him. But suddenly His attribute is limited by forms of reproduction - in fact his own potency? Ridiculous! (material conception)

[Beggar]

 

Let's not forget how much the Gaudiya Math contributed to its present ecclesiastical structure - gurus under an umbrella of authority called the GBC.

The leading disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur were asked by him to form a Governing Board Commission shortly before his departure. After his departure they actually carried out his instruction but later their GBC lost face after "rubber stamping" Vasudeva Brahmacari as acarya. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada also followed this managerial model and formed a Governing Board Commission for Iskcon in 1970. Funny how we forget that Srila Prabhupada was also a member of the Gaudiya Math! Those who perpetrate the idea that "The Gaudiya Math" is some kind of dirty word will reap the rewards of their endeavor in due course.

[Kulapavana]

 

According to Gaudiya-Vaisnava siddhanta - the Holy Name , being an attribute of Krsna is non-different from Him. But suddenly His attribute is limited by forms of reproduction - in fact his own potency? Ridiculous! (material conception)

 

Ask yourself a question: What precisely is the Holy Name? Is computer generated sound: "krishna" a Holy Name? How come this 'non-different from Krsna' Holy Name can be contaminated by non-devotees just as milk touched by the fangs of the serpent? Can Krsna be contaminated? One more time: What IS the Holy Name?

 

Yes, Holy Name is limited by forms of reproduction: it can not be reproduced by non-devotees or machines. Is that simple enough for you?

 

In your naive and childish simplicity you argue about things you clearly do not comprehend.

[Beggar]

 

According to Gaudiya-Vaisnava siddhanta - the Holy Name , being an attribute of Krsna is non-different from Him. But suddenly His attribute is limited by forms of reproduction - in fact his own potency? Ridiculous! (material conception)

What cbrahma doesn't know: 1) the holy name of Krsna is Krsna, it is not an attribute of Krsna, bhinnatvama nama namino. 2) The goal of The Krsna Consciousness Movement is not Krsna, it is Krsna prema, love of Krsna, prema pumartho mahan. You can only get love of Krsna from someone who has it. Although it is lying dormant in our hearts in must be unlocked by someone who has it unlocked.

Part of this process is to receive the holy name from someone who is well along on the path to Krsna prema.

Again cbrahma is blocking my posts, so if someone could quote this or elaborate on it, I would appreciate it.

[Kulapavana]

 

Let's not forget how much the Gaudiya Math contributed to its present ecclesiastical structure - gurus under an umbrella of authority called the GBC. In one word -control. Another word - cheating.

 

As Beggar pointed out, the present day managerial structure of Iskcon is what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada thought would work best as a world-wide preaching institution. The traditional Vaishnavism NEVER looked like that. Thus your argument is with these two visionary acharyas. Authority and control does not have to be equivalent to cheating. It all depends on the quality of people in charge.

 

I was refering to the philosophical dumbing down of Vaishnavism and it's transformation into just another branch of Judeo-Christian kaitava-dharma: cheating religion.

[Kulapavana]

 

What cbrahma doesn't know: 1) the holy name of Krsna is Krsna, it is not an attribute of Krsna, bhinnatvama nama namino. 2) The goal of The Krsna Consciousness Movement is not Krsna, it is Krsna prema, love of Krsna, prema pumartho mahan. You can only get love of Krsna from someone who has it. Although it is lying dormant in our hearts in must be unlocked by someone who has it unlocked.

Part of this process is to receive the holy name from someone who is well along on the path to Krsna prema.

 

[stonehearted]

Just in case:

 

What cbrahma doesn't know: 1) the holy name of Krsna is Krsna, it is not an attribute of Krsna, bhinnatvama nama namino. 2) The goal of The Krsna Consciousness Movement is not Krsna, it is Krsna prema, love of Krsna, prema pumartho mahan. You can only get love of Krsna from someone who has it. Although it is lying dormant in our hearts in must be unlocked by someone who has it unlocked.

Part of this process is to receive the holy name from someone who is well along on the path to Krsna prema.

[cbrahma]

 

Ask yourself a question: What precisely is the Holy Name? Is computer generated sound: "krishna" a Holy Name? How come this 'non-different from Krsna' Holy Name can be contaminated by non-devotees just as milk touched by the fangs of the serpent? Can Krsna be contaminated? One more time: What IS the Holy Name?

 

Yes, Holy Name is limited by forms of reproduction: it can not be reproduced by non-devotees or machines. Is that simple enough for you?

 

In your naive and childish simplicity you argue about things you clearly do not comprehend.

Your arrogant claim to private knowledge is noted.

Of course. The Emperors Clothes again. And of course that's all you have to bring to the table is your unmanifest supposed understanding.

I don't need to ask myself anything. It has already been said by the sastras and Prabhupada.

 

71-07-14 Letter: Makhanlal

Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter undated and have noted the contents carefully. Yes, you have my blessings for the gayatri initiations of Jaya Deva Das Brahmacari and your wife Tilaka Devi Dasi. I am enclosing herewith a tape of the gayatri mantra chanted by me along with two copies of gayatri mantra and one sacred thread, duly chanted on by me, as well. The process should be that you let each of them hear the tape individually (through earphones). Show them how to chant on the fingers. Let them read the mantra and listen to the tape. Then, on my behalf you can present the sacred thread to Jaya Deva. Then hold a fire Yajna as you have seen done so many times before. If there are any questions about procedure, etc, you can consult with Karandhara and he will instruct you properly.

 

 

 

It is stated in the Caitanya-caritamrta:

diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare

jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare

Translation:

"One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

 

 

BTW here is the dictionary definition of attribute

 

<TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">something attributed as belonging to a person, thing, group, etc.; a quality, character, characteristic, or property: Sensitivity is one of his attributes. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD class=dn vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">6.</TD><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">something used as a symbol of a particular person, office, or status: A scepter is one of the attributes of a king. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Under such a definition a name would qualify.

[cbrahma]

 

As Beggar pointed out, the present day managerial structure of Iskcon is what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada thought would work best as a world-wide preaching institution. The traditional Vaishnavism NEVER looked like that. Thus your argument is with these two visionary acharyas. Authority and control does not have to be equivalent to cheating. It all depends on the quality of people in charge.

 

I was refering to the philosophical dumbing down of Vaishnavism and it's transformation into just another branch of Judeo-Christian kaitava-dharma: cheating religion.

That is a lie. The Gaudiya Math were implicated quite seriously in the present system. Prabhupada warned against bureaucracy and centralization.

I will not merely state but prove.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada letter to: Karandhara dasa — Bombay; 22 December, 1972 Regarding your points about taxation, corporate status, etc., I have heard from Jayatirtha you want to make big plan for centralization of management, taxes, monies, corporate status, bookkeeping, credit, like that. I do not at all approve of such plan. Do not centralize anything. Each temple must remain independent and self-sufficient. That was my plan from the very beginning, why you are thinking otherwise? Once before you wanted to do something centralizing with your GBC meeting, and if I did not interfere the whole thing would have been killed. Do not think in this way of big corporation, big credits, centralization—these are all nonsense proposals. Only thing I wanted was that books printing and distribution should be centralized, therefore I appointed you and Bali Mardan to do it. Otherwise, management everything, should be done locally by local men. Accounts must be kept, things must be in order and lawfully done, but that should be each temple's concern, not yours. Krishna Consciousness Movement is for training men to be independently thoughtful and competent in all types of departments of knowledge and action, not for making bureaucracy. Once there is bureaucracy the whole thing will be spoiled. There must be always individual striving and work and responsibility, competitive spirit, not that one shall dominate and distribute benefits to the others and they do nothing but beg from you and you provide. No. Never mind there may be botheration to register each centre, take tax certificate each, become separate corporations in each state. That will train men how to do these things, and they shall develop reliability and responsibility, that is the point. I am little observing now, especially in your country, that our men are losing their enthusiasm for spreading on our programs of Krishna Consciousness movement. Otherwise, why so many letters of problems are coming, dissatisfied? That is not a very good sign. The whole problem is they are not following the regulative principles, that I can detect. Without this, enthusiasm will be lacking. Even mechanically following, and if he gets gradually understanding from the class, he will come to the point of spontaneous enthusiasm. This spontaneous loving devotional service is not so easy matter, but if one simply sticks strictly to the rules and regulations, like rising early, chanting 16 rounds, chanting gayatri, keeping always clean—then his enthusiasm will grow more and more, and if there is also patience and determination, one day he will come to the platform of spontaneous devotion, then his life will be perfect. All of this I have told you in Nectar of Devotion. So I do not think the leaders are themselves following, nor they are seeing the others are following strictly. That must be rectified at once. Each centre remain independent, that's all right, but the president and other officers must themselves follow and see the others are following the regulative principles carefully, and giving them good instruction so they may understand nicely why this tapasya is necessary. And GBC and Sannyasis will travel and see the officers are doing this, and if they observe anything lowering of the standard, they must reform and advise, or if there is some discrepancy I shall remove it. Of course, if new men are coming, they may not be expected immediately to take to our regulative principles cent per cent. Therefore we should not be so anxious to induce them to live in the temple. Anyone who lives in the temple must agree to follow the rules and regulations without fail. So if some new man moves in with us he may become discouraged if he is forced in this way. Therefore let them live outside and become gradually convinced in the class why they should accept some austerity, then they will live with us out of their own accord arid follow nicely everything. It is very difficult to give up very quickly so many bad habits as you have got in your country, so educate them gradually, first with chanting, and do not be so much anxious to count up so many numbers of new devotees, if such devotees go away later being too early forced. I want to see a few sincere devotees, riot many false devotees or pretenders. So my point is that the regulative principles must be followed by everyone. Otherwise their enthusiasm dwindles and they again think of sex and become restless, and so many problems are there. There is some symptom of missing the point. The point is to be engaged in doing something for Krishna, never mind what is that job, but being so engaged in doing something very much satisfying to the devotee that he remains always enthusiastic. He will automatically follow the regulative principles because they are part of his occupational duty—by applying them practically as his occupational duty, he realizes the happy result of regulative principles. So the future of this Krishna Consciousness movement is very bright, so long the managers remain vigilant that 16 rounds are being chanted by everyone without fail, that they are all rising before four morning, attending mangal arati—our leaders shall be careful not to kill the spirit of enthusiastic service, which is individual and spontaneous and voluntary. They should try always to generate some atmosphere of fresh challenge to the devotees, so that they will agree enthusiastically to rise and meet it. That is the art of management: to draw out spontaneous loving spirit of sacrificing some energy for Krishna. But where are so many expert managers? All of us should become expert managers and preachers. We should not be very much after comforts and become complacent or self-contented. There must be always some tapasya, strictly observing the regulative principles—Krishna Consciousness movement must be always a challenge, a great achievement to be gained by voluntary desire to do it, and that will keep it healthy. So you big managers now try to tram up more and more some competent preachers and managers like yourselves. Forget this centralizing and bureaucracy

 

 

 

[cbrahma]

 

As Beggar pointed out, the present day managerial structure of Iskcon is what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada thought would work best as a world-wide preaching institution. The traditional Vaishnavism NEVER looked like that. Thus your argument is with these two visionary acharyas. Authority and control does not have to be equivalent to cheating. It all depends on the quality of people in charge.

 

I was refering to the philosophical dumbing down of Vaishnavism and it's transformation into just another branch of Judeo-Christian kaitava-dharma: cheating religion.

Like taking formal rituals to be the all and all requirement of spiritual advancement.

[Beggar]

 

That is a lie. The Gaudiya Math were implicated quite seriously in the present system. Prabhupada warned against beaurocracy and centralization.

The Gaudiya Math in the time after the implementation of their weak GBC body could hardly be called bureaucratic and centralized. Did Srila Saraswati Thakur want a GBC with no power and authority? Then why did he ask his disciples to create a GBC (which was formed after Srila Saraswati Thakur Left the planet)? Srila Prabhupada tried a different approach to try to get a different result. He formed the GBC early in the life of Iskcon and while he was still on the planet. The result seems to be the opposite, a too powerful, centralized bureaucracy. Now you are blaming Srila Sridhar Maharaj for this?

Srila Sridhar Maharaj was actually blamed for not cooperating with the Gaudiya Math GBC. He was very anti-institutional, IOW he was suspicious of large institutions. Amazing how people don't even care about the real history especially if it doesn't fit into their agenda.

[Kulapavana]

 

Your arrogant claim to private knowledge is noted.

Of course. The Emperors Clothes again. And of course that's all you have to bring to the table is your unmanifest supposed understanding.

I don't need to ask myself anything. It has already been said by the sastras and Prabhupada.

 

This is what shastras and Prabhupada say about diksa for example - no out of context single line quotes:

 

CC Madhya Ch.15. TEXT 108

TEXT

diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare

jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare

SYNONYMS

diksa--initiation; purascarya--activities before initiation; vidhi--regulative principles; apeksa--reliance on; na--not; kare--does; jihva--the tongue; sparse--by touching; a-candala--even to the lowest of men, the candala; sabare--everyone; uddhare--delivers.

TRANSLATION

"One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

PURPORT

Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksa in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

divyam jnanam yato dadyat

kuryat papasya sanksayam

tasmad dikseti sa prokta

desikais tattva-kovidaih

"Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa." The regulative principles of diksa are explained in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.3,4) and in Bhakti-sandarbha (283). As stated:

dvijanam anupetanam svakarmadhyayanadisu

yathadhikaro nastiha syac copanayanad anu

tathatradiksitanam tu mantra-devarcanadisu

nadhikaro 'sty atah kuryad atmanam siva-samstutam

"Even though born in a brahmana family, one cannot engage in Vedic rituals without being initiated and having a sacred thread. Although born in a brahmana family, one becomes a brahmana after initiation and the sacred thread ceremony. Unless one is initiated as a brahmana, he cannot worship the holy name properly."

According to the Vaisnava regulative principles, one must be initiated as a brahmana. The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.6) quotes the following injunction from the Visnu-yamala:

adiksitasya vamoru

krtam sarvam nirarthakam

pasu-yonim avapnoti

diksa-virahito janah

"Unless one is initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, all his devotional activities are useless. A person who is not properly initiated can descend again into the animal species."

Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.10) further quotes:

ato gurum pranamyaivam

sarva-svam vinivedya ca

grhniyad vaisnavam mantram

diksa-purvam vidhanatah

"It is the duty of every human being to surrender to a bona fide spiritual master. Giving him everything-body, mind and intelligence-one must take a Vaisnava initiation from him."

The Bhakti-sandarbha (298) gives the following quotation from the Tattva-sagara:

yatha kancanatam yati

kasyam rasa-vidhanatah

tatha diksa-vidhanena

dvijatvam jayate nrnam

"By chemical manipulation, bell metal is turned into gold when touched by mercury; similarly, when a person is properly initiated, he can acquire the qualities of a brahmana."

The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (17.11,12) in discussing the purascarya process, quotes the following verses from Agastya-samhita:

puja traikaliki nityam

japas tarpanam eva ca

homo brahmana-bhuktis ca

purascaranam ucyate

guror labdhasya mantrasya

prasadena yatha-vidhi

pancangopasana-siddhyai

puras caitad vidhiyate

"In the morning, afternoon and evening, one should worship the Deity, chant the Hare Krsna mantra, offer oblations, perform a fire sacrifice, and feed the brahmanas. These five activities constitute purascarya. To attain full success when taking initiation from the spiritual master, one should first perform these purascarya processes."

The word purah means "before" and carya means "activities." Due to the necessity of these activities, we do not immediately initiate disciples in the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. For six months, a candidate for initiation must first attend arati and classes in the sastras, practice the regulative principles and associate with other devotees. When one is actually advanced in the purascarya-vidhi, he is recommended by the local temple president for initiation. It is not that anyone can be suddenly initiated without meeting the requirements. When one is further advanced by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra sixteen rounds daily, following the regulative principles and attending classes, he receives the sacred thread (brahminical recognition) after the second six months.

In the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (17.4,5,7) it is stated:

vina yena na siddhah syan

mantro varsa-satair api

krtena yena labhate

sadhako vanchitam phalam

purascarana-sampanno

mantro hi phala-dhayakah

atah puraskriyam kuryat

mantravit siddhi-kanksaya

puraskriya hi mantranam

pradhanam viryam ucyate

virya-hino yatha dehi

sarva-karmasu na ksamah

purascarana-hino hi

tatha mantrah prakirtitah

"Without performing the purascarya activities, one cannot become perfect even by chanting this mantra for hundreds of years. However, one who has undergone the purascarya-vidhi process can attain success very easily. If one wishes to perfect his initiation, he must first undergo the purascarya activities. The purascarya process is the life-force by which one is successful in chanting the mantra. Without the life-force, one cannot do anything; similarly, without the life force of purascarya-vidhi, no mantra can be perfected."

In his Bhakti-sandarbha (283), Srila Jiva Gosvami states:

yadyapi sri-bhagavata-mate pancaratradi-vat arcana-margasya avasyakatvam nasti, tad vinapi saranapattyadinam ekatarenapi purusartha-siddher abhihitatvat, tathapi sri-naradadi-vartmanusaradbhih sri-bhagavata saha sambandha-visesam diksa-vidhanena sri-guru-carana-sampaditam cikirsadbhih krtayam diksayam arcanam avasyam kriyetaiva.

Of similar importance is diksa, which is explained as follows in Bhakti-sandarbha (284):

yadyapi svarupato nasti, tathapi prayah svabhavato dehadi-sambandhena kardaya-silanam viksipta-cittanam jananam tat-tat-sankoci-karanaya srimad-rsi-prabhrtibhir atrarcana-marge kvacit kvacit kacit kacin maryada sthapitasti.

Similarly in the Ramarcana-candrika it is stated:

vinaiva diksam viprendra

purascaryam vinaiva hi

vinaiva nyasa-vidhina

japa-matrena siddhida

In other words, the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra is so powerful that it does not depend on official initiation, but if one is initiated and engages in pancaratra-vidhi (Deity worship), his Krsna consciousness will awaken very soon, and his identification with the material world will be vanquished.

--------

 

Prabhupada is translating 'jihva' in this verse one time as 'tongue', one time as 'lips'. But not tape recording

 

And where on earth do you get an impression from these quotes that diksa is some unimportant formality???

[Kulapavana]

 

That is a lie. The Gaudiya Math were implicated quite seriously in the present system. Prabhupada warned against bureaucracy and centralization.

 

In 1977 Prabhupada created an institution of GBC for life, which went against his earlier DOM instructions. DOM itself provides for certain level of centralization as well. BBT was centralized from day 1 by Prabhupada. To blame Iskcon bureaucracy and centralization on GM is a total joke, invented by the GBC Isk-CON artists to cover up their own failures.

[♣♣♣]

This guy was never part of any temple or sanga, he is just an armchair wanna be quoting from veda base and wants to annoy people for attention to feed his jealousy of never having contact with a Sad-Guru.

 

His whole presentation is a fabrication and Prabupada would be the 1st to slam him if he was around for the way he speaks to Vaishnavas and twists his words that have already been twisted by the power hungry!

[AncientMariner]

Have seen essentially this same argument going on for years. I am just wondering which side is winning? I have heard devotees say that those that try to read Prabhupadas books but do not associate with his Godbrothers or other gurus are going to essentially "burn in hell". And I have seen the flip side the coin that says that those other gurus and their devotees are offending Prabhupada and stuff like that. So which side is winning just on sheer numbers wise? Try to get a feel which side Krishna is on or if he is neutral in this controversy, and don't know if numbers will tell the story but it might be some sort of gauge.

[theist]

 

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Mantra: Circle within a Circle

Jiva Goswami has written that the name of Krsna is the principle thing in the gayatri mantra. Within the mantra, there are also so many other words, but the name is the most important. If the name of Krsna is taken away, and replaced with some other name, the whole thing will be rotten. This is the decision of Jiva Goswami. The holy name of Krsna is all in all. The holy name of Krsna is there in the gayatri mantra, and so many other words are couched there. But if Krsna's name is taken away and replaced with the name of Siva, then the whole thing will go to Siva. The holy name is the all-important factor.

The holy name of Krsna is so important that even the gayatri mantra may not be necessary. It is said na ca sat kriya, na dikse na ca purascarya manadilate mantrayam rasana spri hanato sri krsna namatmaka : "One need not undergo all the purificatory processes, or follow the six ritualistic ceremonies mentioned in the Vedas for pious life; one need not even take initiation into the gayatri mantra. If one simply chants the holy name of Krsna without offense, everything will be successful." The holy name of Krsna is the most important consideration. The gayatri mantra may not even be necessary.

We accept the mantra only to help the nama-bhajana, the worship of the holy name. Otherwise, it may not be necessary at all. It has been judged in such a way. The name alone can do everything for a person. lt is full and complete. The mantra helps us to do away with the aparadhas, offenses, and the abhasa, or hazy conceptions in our bhajana. The mantra comes to help us only so far.

An example is given of larger and smaller circles. The holy name of Krsna is the larger circle. It extends from the highest to the lowest. The mantra circle is a smaller circle within the larger circle. The mantra cannot reach to the lowest point. The holy name can extend itself down to the lowest position. The mantra gives us entrance into liberation, and then the name carries us further. This is the nature of our connection with the mantra and the name.

The name extends to the lowest position, to the candalas and yavanas. Everyone can receive the name. But everyone is not eligible for the gayatri mantra. Only after one has reached a developed stage can the mantra be conferred upon him. And the mantra's jurisdiction will be finished when liberation is attained. In the Caitanya-caritamrta (Adi. 7. 73):

krsna-mantra haite habe samsara mocana

krsna-nama haite pabe krsnera carana

"The Krsna gayatri mantra liberates one from repeated birth and death in this world; the holy name of Krsna gives one shelter at the lotus feet of Krsna." The gayatri mantra helps us achieve liberation, and then the mantra retires. After giving us liberation, the mantra is finished. But the name will continue all along, from the lowest to the highest. In chanting the name, there is no mention of any petition--it is an address only. We should not chant with the mentality that, "I want this." We must simply chant the name spontaneously. That will encourage good will in us. So, because the function of the mantra is limited, but the name is all-important, the nama guru will be honored first, and next, the mantra guru, and then the other Vaisnavas. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

 

What else remains to be said? No need to waste my already severly limited brain power on rehasing this over and over. When the light goes on one stops grasping around in the darkness. If after reading the above by His Grace BR Sridhar Maharaja one still is in darkness on this matter than I can only suggest you stop holding your eyes shut because the light is on.

[suchandra]

 

What else remains to be said? No need to waste my already severly limited brain power on rehasing this over and over. When the light goes on one stops grasping around in the darkness. If after reading the above by His Grace BR Sridhar Maharaja one still is in darkness on this matter than I can only suggest you stop holding your eyes shut because the light is on.

 

Great post, thanks for sharing this nectar!

Let's pray that people will develop a taste for chanting Krsna's holy name or any other holy name of God and not remain stuck to not experience anything while chanting and eventually give it up.

After all, chanting Krsna's name is the yuga-dharma, wonder why people don't adopt it in big style? It is said that the demigods are lining up to take birth on Earth in order to achieve the highest love of God.

Looks like that presently some more things have to be arranged so that planet Earth becomes more qualified to receive more and more devas and thus fullfill the prediction that there will be a golden age for the next ten thousand years.

[Beggar]

Srila Sridhar Maharaj

Sri Guru and His Grace:

 

We accept the mantra only to help the nama-bhajana, the worship of the holy name. Otherwise, it may not be necessary at all. It has been judged in such a way. The name alone can do everything for a person. lt is full and complete. The mantra helps us to do away with the aparadhas, offenses, and the abhasa, or hazy conceptions in our bhajana.

 

Who doesn't need help?

[Beggar]

 

...The goal of The Krsna Consciousness Movement is not Krsna, it is Krsna prema, love of Krsna, prema pumartho mahan. You can only get love of Krsna from someone who has it. Although it is lying dormant in our hearts in must be unlocked by someone who has it unlocked.

Part of this process is to receive the holy name from someone who is well along on the path to Krsna prema.

 

 

This is not coming from me its in all our advanced books like Caitanya Caritamrta. It has been brought out and explained by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur and others. It is the knock out punch to those who say that personal association with a real sadhu is unimportant.

[Bishadi]

 

Great post, thanks for sharing this nectar!

 

Let's pray that people will develop a taste for chanting Krsna's holy name or any other holy name of God and not remain stuck to not experience anything while chanting and eventually give it up.

 

Did I see this correctly? You want people to chant (praying for) but not concerned about the name.

 

and then state literally that when the chanting is realized does nothing, eventually the people will give it up?

 

 

Because this is one of the best ideas found on this site! That in reality chanting a name is basically self imposed 'Rama'.... and then you shared how 'any' name of God... is Otay.

 

Guess them 'sound' waves are not so tightly focused or special.

 

 

 

After all, chanting Krsna's name is the yuga-dharma,

 

again am I reading these words correctly?

 

 

 

Swami Vivekananda describes the distinction between them in this way. Of Sanatan dharma, he says:

 

We know that in our books, a clear distinction is made between two sets of truths. The one set is that which abides for ever, being built upon the nature of man, the nature of the

soul

, the soul's relation to God, the nature of God, perfection and so on; there are also the principles of cosmology, of the infinitude of creation, or more correctly speaking, projection, the wonderful law of cyclical procession, and so on; these are eternal principles founded upon the universal laws of nature.

 

 

Of Yuga dharma, he says:

 

The other set comprises the minor laws, which guide the working of our everyday life. They belong more properly to the

Puranas

, to the Smrtis, and not to the Sruti. These have nothing to do with the other principles. Even in

India

, these minor laws have been changing all the time. Customs of one age, of one yuga, have not been the customs of another, and as yuga come after yuga, they will still have to change.

 

 

 

 

So the idea of chanting will eventually be over with as all it is, is a phase; like skate boards and short skirts?

 

 

 

 

 

Looks like that presently some more things have to be arranged so that planet Earth becomes more qualified to receive more and more devas and thus fullfill the prediction that there will be a golden age for the next ten thousand years.

I agree. as time progresses, the changes to come will offer more knowledge to usher in the world Peace.

 

so when more 'qualified' people are around to recieve the knowledge, we can recognize the period is about to change.

 

 

What a great post, (that is if I read it correctly).

[bhaktajan]

OTAY, listen-up. First, Lick the furr ball from you hide.

 

Secondly, "OTAY" is my word.

 

So get your own! OTAY? OTAY.

 

Now let's be friends and allow our familarity to breed contempt --as there is a place and time for every season.

 

Just remember that baby Stuwie is actually a cartoon [Family Guy] with a fake accent affectation --just like your alter ego.

 

OTAY,

Bhaktajan

[Beggar]

 

Swami Vivekananda describes...

 

After Srila Sridhar Maharaj had been in the Math for a few years in the early 1930s, one of his former classmates came to see him. Srila Sridhar Maharaj knew that his former friend was a staunch advaitan and Gandhi-ite so he really didn't want to spend much time with him. His "friend" asked him rather sarcastically, "Oh, you have been in these red rags (saffron cloth) for so much time, what have you learned." Srila Sridhar Maharaj replied, "I have learned that everything that Vivekananda and Rama Krishna have said is wrong!" His "friend" was mortified and immediately left the Math.