Definition Of Diksha

[Kulapavana]

 

If someone reads Prabhupada's books and starts chanting as a result is that considered as recieving the mantra from a guru?

 

No, it is not, at least in my opinion. Even the Mahamantra should be received from a devotee. Getting a Maha-mantra from another devotee is not considered a diksa, but it is still receiving a mantra from a proper source, not taking it.

[cbrahma]

 

If someone reads Prabhupada's books and starts chanting as a result is that considered as recieving the mantra from a guru?

Your ingenuous questioning is so cool. You innocently cut right to the chase. I know you're not asking me, but logically if formal diksa is a requirement, the results of book distribution are null and void unless the reader gets himself/herself a formal initiating guru.

[cbrahma]

 

No, it is not, at least in my opinion. Even the Mahamantra should be received from a devotee. Getting a Maha-mantra from another devotee is not considered a diksa, but it is still receiving a mantra from a proper source, not taking it.

So much for book distribution.

[Kulapavana]

 

 

You Can't Manufacture a Mantra

 

Evam parampara-praptam: In this way, by disciplic succession, the knowledge is coming down. Sa kaleneha mahata yogo nastah parantapa: But in the course of time the succession was broken. Therefore, Krsna says, I am speaking it to you again. So a mantra should be received from the disciplic succession. The Vedic injunction is sampradaya-vihina ye mantras te nisphala matah. If your mantra does not come through the disciplic succession, it will not be effective. Mantras te nisphala. Nisphala means that it will not produce the desired result. So the mantra must be received through the proper channel, or it will not act. A mantra cannot be manufactured. It must come from the original Supreme Absolute, coming down through the channel of disciplic succession. It has to be received in that way, and only then will it act.

According to our Krsna consciousness philosophy, the mantra is coming down through four channels of disciplic succession: one through Lord siva, one through the goddess Laksmi, one through Lord Brahma, and one through the four Kumaras. The same thing comes down through different channels. These are called the four sampradayas, or disciplic successions. So, one has to take his mantra from one of these four sampradayas; then only is that mantra active. If we receive the mantra in that way, it will be effective. And if one does not receive his mantra through one of these sampradaya channels, then it will not act; it will not give fruit.

 

September 14, 1969 Conversation with John, Yoko, and George Harrison

[Kulapavana]

 

So much for book distribution.

 

I strongly suspect that I translated, printed, and distributed more Prabhupada's books than you did, so spare me the sarcasm. Books go out and people come to hear from devotees. This is how it works.

[cbrahma]

 

 

You Can't Manufacture a Mantra

 

 

Evam parampara-praptam: In this way, by disciplic succession, the knowledge is coming down. Sa kaleneha mahata yogo nastah parantapa: But in the course of time the succession was broken. Therefore, Krsna says, I am speaking it to you again. So a mantra should be received from the disciplic succession. The Vedic injunction is sampradaya-vihina ye mantras te nisphala matah. If your mantra does not come through the disciplic succession, it will not be effective. Mantras te nisphala. Nisphala means that it will not produce the desired result. So the mantra must be received through the proper channel, or it will not act. A mantra cannot be manufactured. It must come from the original Supreme Absolute, coming down through the channel of disciplic succession. It has to be received in that way, and only then will it act.

According to our Krsna consciousness philosophy, the mantra is coming down through four channels of disciplic succession: one through Lord siva, one through the goddess Laksmi, one through Lord Brahma, and one through the four Kumaras. The same thing comes down through different channels. These are called the four sampradayas, or disciplic successions. So, one has to take his mantra from one of these four sampradayas; then only is that mantra active. If we receive the mantra in that way, it will be effective. And if one does not receive his mantra through one of these sampradaya channels, then it will not act; it will not give fruit.

 

September 14, 1969 Conversation with John, Yoko, and George Harrison

So reception by reading Prabhupada's books should be valid.

Srvanam kirtanam.

[AncientMariner]

 

Is that the Kulapavana srutis? The Yuga-dharma, the chanting of the maha-mantra is meant to spread religious Hinduism all over the world? That's not how it's preached at all.

If the MahaMantra has no effect unless there is formal initiation, then the HariNama parties are wasting their time. Uninitated bhaktas are also wasting there time chanting...

however... the Vedas also say -

 

 

The religious rationalizations on this forum crack me up. LOL

 

 

If there is anything I have learned about Krishna Consciousness and the acaryas is there appear to be all sorts of contradicting statements amongst them and often they even contradict themselves but even as that may be the ones like Prabhupada certainly seem to be sincerely humble and merciful to the people they come in contact with.

[cbrahma]

I strongly suspect that I translated, printed, and distributed more Prabhupada's books than you did, so spare me the sarcasm. Books go out and people come to hear from devotees. This is how it works.

I was serious. And your egotistic mood , tells me exactly where your coming from spiritually, but let that pass. But then you contradict yourself.

[Kulapavana]

 

So reception by reading Prabhupada's books should be valid.

Srvanam kirtanam.

 

THAT IS SRAVANAM!!!! Hearing!!! Not reading! IT ALL STARTS WITH A SOUND!!! Not with watching letters on paper!

 

Beat it into your head: it starts with a SOUND VIBRATION!

[cbrahma]

 

THAT IS SRAVANAM!!!! Hearing!!! Not reading! IT ALL STARTS WITH A SOUND!!! Not with watching letters on paper!

 

Beat it into your head: it starts with a SOUND VIBRATION!

Please - the vani vibrates in many forms - the whole universe is made of sound vibration - this is fundamental and you haven't even learned that.

[Kulapavana]

Uninitiated bhaktas chanting japa on beads is something Prabhupada introduced in the West. It was NOT DONE in the Gaudiya matha, and even nowadays is not done outside Iskcon.

[AncientMariner]

 

THAT IS SRAVANAM!!!! Hearing!!! Not reading! IT ALL STARTS WITH A SOUND!!! Not with watching letters on paper!

 

Beat it into your head: it starts with a SOUND VIBRATION!

 

 

According to what I read in Prabhupadas books the book bhagavata or the person bhagavata are competent remedies to overcome the ill effects of the Kaliyuga and they are identical. So basically what I take from that is that when you read Prabhupadas books you are hearing from Prabhupada. No offense but you seem to have a very narrow perspective on what hearing is. When you read an author and pay attention to what they are writing in essence you are listening to what they have to say.

[cbrahma]

Uninitiated bhaktas chanting japa on beads is something Prabhupada introduced in the West. It was NOT DONE in the Gaudiya matha, and even nowadays is not done outside Iskcon.

Exactly and as such you have confused the external (religiosity) with the potency (sakti).

[Kulapavana]

 

Please - the vani vibrates in many forms - the whole universe is made of sound vibration - this is fundamental and you haven't even learned that.

 

Think for a second before you embark on another BS promotion:

 

Why is sravanam different from kirtanam? Both are sound vibration, yet sravanam is receiving sabda brahman through your ears, not through your eyes. Why? because that sound is REAL and primeval, while the marks on paper are just illusory and symbolic.

 

Mantra is REAL and cannot be transmitted through visual and symbolic media.

[AncientMariner]

 

Uninitiated bhaktas chanting japa on beads is something Prabhupada introduced in the West. It was NOT DONE in the Gaudiya matha, and even nowadays is not done outside Iskcon.

 

 

Is it possible that this is part of Prabhupadas special mercy and what sets him apart from his Godbrothers in that he was willing to break with rigid tradition in order to spread the mantra all over the world even to the unqualified?

[Kulapavana]

 

Exactly and as such you have confused the external (religiosity) with the potency (sakti). It isn't suprising as a religious Hindu that you think the way you do. You have been brainwashed.

 

Some things Prabhupada introduced to the tradition were useful, and some were not. Chanting japa by the un-initiated bhaktas is not that controversial, still - it is a departure from the Vedic tradition and a compromise.

[cbrahma]

 

Think for a second before you embark on another BS promotion:

 

Why is sravanam different from kirtanam? Both are sound vibration, yet sravanam is receiving sabda brahman through your ears, not through your eyes. Why? because that sound is REAL and primeval, while the marks on paper are just illusory and symbolic.

 

Mantra is REAL and cannot be transmitted through visual and symbolic media.

Mantra is REAL. So are the spiritual masters teachings, which include the maha mantra. In fact as I mentioned before the whole universe is a sound vibration.

The hearing is not just the hearing of the mantra - it is the hearing of the teachings of the Spiritual Master.

You can't possibly be serious that reading the Gita -(song of God) is not sravanam. Krsna, the spiritual master speaks through it.

Reception of vani must be sravanam because it is the essence of diksa. You apparently don't know that either.

 

 

SP, Lecture Bhagavad-gita 9.15 -- New York, December 1, 1966

Unless you hear, you cannot describe. What you shall describe? If you do not know anything about the Supreme Lord, then how can you describe? Therefore hearing is the first item, sravanam. And the whole Vedic literature is called hearing, sruti, sruti-sastra. Sruti means to receive by hearing. God has given you the power of hearing. If you hear from authoritative sources, then you become perfect, simply by hearing.

 

[AncientMariner]

Its just another version of the living guru debate. I can't to Kulapavana's mentality that you have to have a living guru reading the Vedas and spanking you in order to get the mercy of the spiritual master especially considering the guru that Kulapavana recieved the mantra from apparently not only felldown but also stole a bunch of money on the way out. This debate will never end and even Prabhupada has some apparently contradictory statements on the issue so it will never go away so I just take the statements that Prabhupada said that the person bhagavata and the book bhagavata are identical and Prabhupada also seemed to stress associating with his vani rather than actual physical association.

[Kulapavana]

 

Its just another version of the living guru debate. I can't to Kulapavana's mentality that you have to have a living guru reading the Vedas to you in order to get the mercy of the spiritual master especially considering the guru that Kulapavana recieved the mantra from apparently not only felldown but also stole a bunch of money on the way out.

 

To each their own. Any guru is merely a tool and a servant of Sri Guru, Krsna. I received the mantra in the chain of disciplic succession. That is all that counts. I did not take the mantra from the book. It was given to me by a then representative of Parampara.

 

You can be a disciple of Prabhupada without getting diksa from him. No problem. But claiming to be getting diksa from a departed guru is a joke. Only the brainwashed Iskcon devotees buy such fairytales.

[cbrahma]

 

Some things Prabhupada introduced to the tradition were useful, and some were not. Chanting japa by the un-initiated bhaktas is not that controversial, still - it is a departure from the Vedic tradition and a compromise.

How dare you speak so patronizingly of such a transcendental personality. What compromise? Prabhupada was not a compromiser. He understood , lived and breathed bhakti. In spite of your boasted religious credentials , your second initation - re-initiation your lack of basic spiritual understanding is the best argument against the necessity of such religious credentials.

[cbrahma]

 

To each their own. Any guru is merely a tool and a servant of Sri Guru, Krsna. I received the mantra in the chain of disciplic succession. That is all that counts. I did not take the mantra from the book. It was given to me by a then representative of Parampara.

 

You can be a disciple of Prabhupada without getting diksa from him. No problem. But claiming to be getting diksa from a departed guru is a joke. Only the brainwashed Iskcon devotees buy such fairytales.

That objection is easily countered. There are number of tapes of Prabupada chanting.

[Kulapavana]

 

You can't possibly be serious that reading the Gita -(song of God) is not sravanam. Krsna, the spiritual master speaks through it.

 

Reading a book is not sravanam. Hearing the Gita verses sung and explained by devotees in a class IS sravanam. This is how the books were always meant to be used.

[Kulapavana]

 

That objection is easily countered. There are number of tapes of Prabupada chanting.

 

1. Many Vaishnavas claim that mantra cannot be reproduced by mechanical means. I tend to agree with them.

2. Prabhupada is not chanting there on these tapes to give you specifically a diksa. Again: you can not TAKE the mantra, either from a book. or from a tape.

[cbrahma]

 

Reading a book is not sravanam. Hearing the Gita verses sung and explained by devotees in a class IS sravanam. This is how the books were always meant to be used.

You're arguing in circles - I've already addressed that and I'm tired of repeating myself.

You don't understand the basic siddhanta. So much for your diksa or re-diksa.

Be complacently satisfied with your formal ticket to spiritual advancement. I don't take God so cheaply.

[cbrahma]

 

1. Many Vaishnavas claim that mantra cannot be reproduced by mechanical means. I tend to agree with them.

2. Prabhupada is not chanting there on these tapes to give you specifically a diksa. Again: you can not TAKE the mantra, either from a book. or from a tape.

I get the difference between a formal diksa and an essential one. You don't seem to get it though.