Definition Of Diksha

[AncientMariner]

 

Diksa is a matchless gift bestowed upon us from above, the spiritual truth of KRSNA manifesting/descending in our whole being as pure transcedental knowledge making us servants of KRSNA, and thereby eligible for pure love: KRSNA prema.

 

 

Hard to argue with that definition.

[theist]

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

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Diksa is a matchless gift bestowed upon us from above, the spiritual truth of KRSNA manifesting/descending in our whole being as pure transcedental knowledge making us servants of KRSNA, and thereby eligible for pure love: KRSNA prema.

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Hard to argue with that definition.

 

 

I agree. Beautifully and succinctly said.

[theist]

Isn't it odd that we who take to this definition of diksa over just the ceremonial definition of diksa are the one's accussed of being anti-diksa?

[cbrahma]

 

Funny:P because CBrahma has put you on ignore, and so he wouldn't be able to take your advice. Hope you appreciate the irony, though.

I have not put svu on ignore, though I might as well since his statements are best ignored. His advice is so asiddhantic the wiser folks like theist avoid hearing that philosophy.

[Beggar]

 

Isn't it odd that we who take to this definition of diksa over just the ceremonial definition of diksa are the one's accussed of being anti-diksa?

Theist, I don't think that you are anti-diksa but I think that the statements cbrahma has made would put him in that category. Maybe when it really comes down to it, he is not anti-diksa, maybe its just the extreme style of his rhetoric. I have posted this before, once Srila Sridhar Maharaj was asked about Peter Bourwash, the tennis pro, who had Srila Prabhupada's association but was never formally initiated. Bhakta Peter soon after Prabhupada left had a dream that he was being initiated by Srila Prabhupada. Later he refused to accept initiation from any of the Zonal Eleven (wasn't that with Frank Sinatra and his gang?). When they asked Srila Sridhar Maharaj about Bhakta Peter's "dream" initiation, Srila Sridhar Maharaj said,[paraphase] "it may be, it just may be in a special circumstance, after all Krsna says in Gita (9.22), yoga kseman vahamyaham, 'I carry what they lack,' so it just may be." So here is another reason why formal diksa can be an external affair, and someone may receive an even deeper connection in a dream. And this is confirmed by Srila Sridhar Maharaj. So this kind of mercy is very rare, but we can see that it must have been percipitated by the personal association Peter Bourwash had with a pure devotee. So the siksa is most important thing not the diksa. But still if you look at everything in context we must recognize that Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaj encouraged their followers to take formal diksa and current Gaudiya preachers are following that example. Everything must be viewed in the proper context. The argument is not formal diksa vs. substantial, realized diksa, but rather how to properly adjust all these concepts.

 

 

[Beggar]

Some of the original "Eleven" hatching their dastardly plot:

 

 

[theist]

 

Theist, I don't think that you are anti-diksa but I think that the statements cbrahma has made would put him in that category. Maybe when it really comes down to it, he is not anti-diksa, maybe its just the extreme style of his rhetoric. I have posted this before, once Srila Sridhar Maharaj was asked about Peter Bourwash, the tennis pro, who had Srila Prabhupada's association but was never formally initiated. Bhakta Peter soon after Prabhupada left had a dream that he was being initiated by Srila Prabhupada. Later he refused to accept initiation from any of the Zonal Eleven (wasn't that with Frank Sinatra and his gang?). When they asked Srila Sridhar Maharaj about Bhakta Peter's "dream" initiation, Srila Sridhar Maharaj said,[paraphase] "it may be, it just may be in a special circumstance, after all Krsna says in Gita (9.22), yoga kseman vahamyaham, 'I carry what they lack,' so it just may be." So here is another reason why formal diksa can be an external affair, and someone may receive an even deeper connection in a dream. And this is confirmed by Srila Sridhar Maharaj. So this kind of mercy is very rare, but we can see that it must have been percipitated by the personal association Peter Bourwash had with a pure devotee. So the siksa is most important thing not the diksa. But still if you look at everything in context we must recognize that Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaj encouraged their followers to take formal diksa and current Gaudiya preachers are following that example. Everything must be viewed in the proper context. The argument is not formal diksa vs. substantial, realized diksa, but rather how to properly adjust all these concepts.

 

 

I knew Peter a little bit. Of course he couldn't accept another guru, his faith was already there in Srila Prabhupada. Funny I remember when the 11 had just starting staking their turf Peter and I got into a little argument over it. I said they were bogus frauds and he thought I was being very offensive. He even told me to wait ten years and I would be embarrassed I ever said such things. It's been more than thirty now and I haven't looked back. Glad to hear about his dream/vision. I accept his account without hesitation.

 

Like I have said I accept the diksa ceremony as being necessary for temple altar work. No problem if the guru uses it to draw the disciple closer. Prabhupada afterall was trying to create a brahminical class and he instituted formal Deity worship. He brought Vaisnavism in a tradional "hindu" style.

 

I am against the way people have come to view the ceremony however. people think they have become brahmanas due to the ceremony when in fact the focus should be on developing the qualities charateristic of a brahmana that we read about in the Gita. Both can work together but the qaulities are indespensible and compared to those qualities the ceremony lacks real importance.

 

I believe cbrahma feels the same way and it is his style that people react to. That and his anti-GM stance. I believe he will come to soften that in time. Anyway I don't share his feelings on that front.

[theist]

 

Some of the original "Eleven" hatching their dastardly plot:

 

 

 

 

Yes I recognize the infamous rat pack was at the core of scheme.

[cbrahma]

 

I knew Peter a little bit. Of course he couldn't accept another guru, his faith was already there in Srila Prabhupada. Funny I remember when the 11 had just starting staking their turf Peter and I got into a little argument over it. I said they were bogus frauds and he thought I was being very offensive. He even told me to wait ten years and I would be embarrassed I ever said such things. It's been more than thirty now and I haven't looked back. Glad to hear about his dream/vision. I accept his account without hesitation.

 

Like I have said I accept the diksa ceremony as being necessary for temple altar work. No problem if the guru uses it to draw the disciple closer. Prabhupada afterall was trying to create a brahminical class and he instituted formal Deity worship. He brought Vaisnavism in a tradional "hindu" style.

 

I am against the way people have come to view the ceremony however. people think they have become brahmanas due to the ceremony when in fact the focus should be on developing the qualities charateristic of a brahmana that we read about in the Gita. Both can work together but the qaulities are indespensible and compared to those qualities the ceremony lacks real importance.

 

I believe cbrahma feels the same way and it is his style that people react to. That and his anti-GM stance. I believe he will come to soften that in time. Anyway I don't share his feelings on that front.

The whole perception of my being anti-diksa because I don't capitulate to the religious arrogance of 'I got a fire sacrifice so I'm in' mentality is, alright I'll say it,anti-Prapbhada. As far as I'm concerned that's what GM is. And I refuse to copy those incontrovertible quotes again.

[Beggar]

 

The whole perception of my being anti-diksa because I don't capitulate to the religious arrogance of 'I got a fire sacrifice so I'm in' mentality is, alright I'll say it,anti-Prapbhada. As far as I'm concerned that's what GM is. And I refuse to copy those incontrovertible quotes again.

 

I can kind of see what cbrahma is saying; after all GM makes Chevy. Personally I believe that Ford Trucks rule!

[Beggar]

 

Some of the original "Eleven" hatching their dastardly plot:

 

 

This is a scene from the original Ocean's Eleven. The one made a couple of years ago was garbage. Tamal was highly influenced by this movie that he saw when he was a youth. That's why he added Jayatirtha to get to the magic number, 'eleven'.

[AncientMariner]

 

I can kind of see what cbrahma is saying; after all GM makes Chevy. Personally I believe that Ford Trucks rule!

 

 

Not endorsing Chevy but Fords are awful.

[theist]

 

The whole perception of my being anti-diksa because I don't capitulate to the religious arrogance of 'I got a fire sacrifice so I'm in' mentality is, alright I'll say it,anti-Prapbhada. As far as I'm concerned that's what GM is. And I refuse to copy those incontrovertible quotes again.

 

No need. I heard them all long before you ever posted them. Time place circumstance is the way I look at it. As for myself I am quite happy being a lone camper.

[theist]

Original ocean's 11. Never knew there was one. Now I get the joke. Your jokes are too esoteric sometimes.

[bija]

 

This is a scene from the original Ocean's Eleven. The one made a couple of years ago was garbage. Tamal was highly influenced by this movie that he saw when he was a youth. That's why he added Jayatirtha to get to the magic number, 'eleven'.quote by beggar

Many may over-look the mad sages ramblings. Without realizing the higher workings of an apparently inconceivable subject matter.

 

thank you very much (beggar)

[suchandra]

 

No need. I heard them all long before you ever posted them. Time place circumstance is the way I look at it. As for myself I am quite happy being a lone camper.

 

Since we hear and learn from sastra mainly about non-institutionalized Vaishnavas and at the same time the institutionalization was started like an experiment just a couple of years ago around 1918, there should be a more powerful agenda supporting those devotees as righteous Vaishnavas who don't live within the hierarchy of institutionalized Vaishnavism.

[Amlesh]

Me too, I like to be the poor and lonesome cowboy [Lucky Luke].

[cbrahma]

Well I don't know how isolated one has to be. Is it really a choice between being a hermit or being an institutional gumba-slave?

Somehow the sanga has to be there. True- reading the books is sanga, but there has to be some Vaisnava out there who isn't trying to control you, squeeze every drop of service and resources from you, and who isn' t just a kanishta material devotee. If not, that is a pretty sad state of affairs and speaks eloquently against the religious process.

[Amlesh]

 

Well I don't know how isolated one has to be. Is it really a choice between being a hermit or being an institutional gumba-slave?

Somehow the sanga has to be there. True- reading the books is sanga, but there has to be some Vaisnava out there who isn't trying to control you, squeeze every drop of service and resources from you, and who isn' t just a kanishta material devotee. If not, that is a pretty sad state of affairs and speaks eloquently against the religious process.

 

Well outlined.

 

Bravo.

[Kulapavana]

 

Funny I remember when the 11 had just starting staking their turf Peter and I got into a little argument over it. I said they were bogus frauds and he thought I was being very offensive. He even told me to wait ten years and I would be embarrassed I ever said such things. It's been more than thirty now and I haven't looked back.

 

I find it both hilarious and sad that all these devotees who deify Prabhupada have such unequivocal criticism towards the men he himself chose as the leaders of his society, and entrusted them with giving diksa to both current and future devotees in Iskcon. Unbelievable!

[cbrahma]

 

I find it both hilarious and sad that all these devotees who deify Prabhupada have such unequivocal criticism towards the men he himself chose as the leaders of his society, and entrusted them with giving diksa to both current and future devotees in Iskcon. Unbelievable!

Ahhh. So we judge the guru by his disciples. Poor NM and Sridhar Maharaj.

Of course your hidden premise ,that Prabhupada intended these men to be gurus on their own behalf, is a lie.

BTW, it makes more sense to deify (treat as good as God) a pure devotee, than a formal ritual (formal diksa).

 

 

 

To the best of my ability to understand, when I listen to the so-called appointment tape, the impression I get is that Srila Prabhupada is purposely and intentionally evasive and ambiguous. He refused to be pinned down. He doesn't seem to want to discuss these issues that are being presented by his disciples. His answers to their questions appear purposely terse and open to interpretation. He answered accurately, generally, and ambiguously. This stood out for me when I listened to the tape:

<CENTER>"He becomes the disciple of my disciple, just see. His grand disciple.

</CENTER>Some of His statements seem to support the continuation of the already existing program of "stand-in representatives", yet in the same conversation Srila Prabhupada says something that seems to support the theory that his disciples will take their own disciples as regular gurus. What is a regular guru?

 

Everyone agrees that during His lila, Srila Prabhupada was consistently clear when He wanted to make his wishes known. He would go to extremes to make sure that all His disciples understood exactly what he wanted them to understand. Srila Prabhupada could not be fooled, deceived, hoodwinked, or cajoled. Srila Prabhupada was completely aware of everyone's true intentions, and could accurately diagnosis the level of advancement of His disciples, regardless of their profile or administrative position. Everyone's nature was transparent to Srila Prabhupada. As an external representative of Paramatma, Srila Prabhupada was kept fully informed of what was present within the heart, regardless of how an individual may appear to others.

Srila Prabhupada could easily have said: "You eleven (with names) are appointed by me to become genuine diksa gurus and give genuine initiation -- although you have not attained the highest realization, you have become completely fixed-up and trained up in my service." But he never clearly spelled anything like this out. It would have been simple for Him to have said something very concrete like this -- but he didn't. Srila Prabhupada could have said: "All of you, my governing body representatives, you are qualified to recognize and select who will be initiating disciples after I leave."

Rocana dasa

 

[Amlesh]

 

I find it both hilarious and sad that all these devotees who deify Prabhupada have such unequivocal criticism towards the men he himself chose as the leaders of his society, and entrusted them with giving diksa to both current and future devotees in Iskcon. Unbelievable!

 

Poor Theist, I don't from where he (Theist) gathers so much patience:).

 

It's true, it's indeed difficult to understand the Lord and the Seers of the Lord.

[Amlesh]

Good Job cBrahma.

[cbrahma]

 

Poor Theist, I don't from where he (Theist) gathers so much patience:).

 

It's true, it's indeed difficult to understand the Lord and the Seers of the Lord.

Theist is indeed patient. He is also wise. He put Kula on ignore.

[Beggar]

cbrahma's criticisms of the GM (The Gaudiya Math) are part and parcel of their Protestant Christianization of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Not only do they accept that revelation must always come through reading "the books" without the help of a transparent via media in apparent corporal form, but they also believe that the disciples of Prabhupada's godbothers and their disciples and grand disciples are stained with the "original sin" of their param guru's not coming to the West to help Srila Prabhupada. So in this kind of philosophy these persons need no diksa connection with a living line of preceptors yet the persons who are connected by diksa with the disciples of Prabhupada's godbrothers are somehow inheriting the "original sin" of their grandguru (param guru) through the diksa process. What a strange philosophy! Why not just be a Protestant Christian since God is one?