Definition Of Diksha

[cbrahma]

 

"As far as sanga is concerned, India is just as full of charletans and the West."

 

How do you know, you never even been to India or Braja and met with any advanced Vaishnavas, yet from your computer room you condemn them, how idiotic and uninformed and yes I hate this term but 'PUFFED UP"

HA!

Because I am in touch with those who do. Besides a lot of them come here to peddle their nonsense. It's not a matter of geography but consciousness.

[♣♣♣]

YOU are the charlatan cbrahma who has tried to highjack Prabupadas words and USE then to fit your agenda here to attack others, you are seething with sadhu ninda and aparadha, and lost in your own speculation.

[cbrahma]

 

YOU are the charlatan cbrahma who has tried to highjack Prabupadas words and USE then to fit your agenda here to attack others' date=' you are seething with sadhu ninda and aparadha, and lost in your own speculation.[/quote']

You just pound away with the same objections with NO cogent arguments and no support other than your claims to being a superior Vaisnava and my disagreement as disturbed and crazy.

Give up.

[♣♣♣]

" Because I am in touch with those who do"

 

That is no replacement for being in the Dham itself, that is BS and will not purify you in any way. Stop pretending you are some advanced devotee who knows Srila Prabupada better than anyone else (you don't) and you might cure the empty hole inside you.

 

Again all you want is to debate and get a rush, but in doing so you are digging yourself into a deep hole of aparadha.

[♣♣♣]

It's a waste of time to argue Siddhanta with someone like you, I know better because you think you know it all, why waste the time, better to show how idiotic you are, which is easy!

 

[cbrahma]

 

" Because I am in touch with those who do"

 

That is no replacement for being in the Dham itself, that is BS and will not purify you in any way. Stop pretending you are some advanced devotee who knows Srila Prabupada better than anyone else (you don't) and you might cure the empty hole inside you.

 

Again all you want is to debate and get a rush, but in doing so you are digging yourself into a deep hole of aparadha.

If you think I'm just wanting to be offensive then stop arguing.

We were talking about charlatans. They can be found everywhere.

You are pretending to be an advanced devotee. Not I.

You are not the only one who knows Prabhupada. I know several Prabhupada disciples who are not so elitist and arrogant as yourself.

Consider yourself ignored and of course you'll respond even after I've said that.

[♣♣♣]

I am not pretending to be an advanced devotee at all, because I am not I know better.

 

All I have ever said is that diksha is important and disagreed with you on that and as a result YOU try and and say that is claiming I'm advanced, more BS, you want to pigeon hole people so you can hammer them to feel good about yourself.

 

Again all you do from one person to another is fight and argue, from one thread to another and it does not matter what you believe at the time (the change is from one year to the next) yet you are ALWAYS RIGHT and everyone else is wrong whatever you happen to be believing at the time.

 

This is just how YOU are, get some professional help!

[♣♣♣]

Can't take the heat you dish out hey?

 

[Kulapavana]

 

I see. So this is the 'you too' argument. Because allegedgly Prabhupad did it, then it's ok for the GM gurus to do it.

But it remains to be proven whether Prabhupada actually supported the corruption like racketerring, drug-dealing and child molestation. He dismantled the GBC at one point because it was getting derailed.

 

There is no record of corruption like racketerring, drug-dealing and child molestation in the GM, while it happened on many occasions in Iskcon. I am not saying Prabhupada supported the corrupt activities but he certainly kept people responsible for them in power.

[cbrahma]

 

There is no record of corruption like racketerring, drug-dealing and child molestation in the GM, while it happened on many occasions in Iskcon. I am not saying Prabhupada supported the corrupt activities but he certainly kept people responsible for them in power.

I didn't say there was. I only know that they supported zonal gurus that were so involved.

[Vedesu]

 

Again all you do from one person to another is fight and argue' date=' from one thread to another and it does not matter what you believe at the time (the change is from one year to the next) yet you are ALWAYS RIGHT and everyone else is wrong whatever you happen to be believing at the time.[/quote']

 

That about sums it up.

[♣♣♣]

Here lies cbrahmas problem, he is so bitter over this zonal guru stuff after all these years, and he has never let go of it, what it has done is eaten him up inside, As a result he has gone bonkers and thinks we are all part of the plot, along with other Advanced Vaishnavas in Braja, very paranoid indeed.

 

(cbrahma I know when you see that I have posted you will unblock me to see what I say, you don't have enough self-control to do otherwise!

HA HA HA!)

 

[cbrahma]

 

That about sums it up.

Well you're easily convinced about this global statement - over the years apparently. You have been tracking all my posts - goodness, how scary. And you think triple dot's behavior appropriate and reasonable?

Everybody debates what they believe is right. And everybody has been in disagreement? Hardly.

[♣♣♣]

[Vedesu]

 

(cbrahma I know when you see that I have posted you will unblock me to see what I say' date=' you don't have enough self-control to do otherwise! (HA HA HA!)[/quote']

 

That's a fact. He wouldn't have anyone to argue with if he stopped reading posts from his perceived "enemies."

[cbrahma]

 

That's a fact. He wouldn't have anyone to argue with if he stopped reading posts from his perceived "enemies."

Of course that's his fevered fantasy. I'm only responding to your surprising agreements. If he is so transcendental he would just ignore me rather than waste his time. But he's dedicated a lot of effort trying (trying is the operative term here) to discredit me. I guess I should be flattered that I'm worth that much attention. BTW he thinks Gopal batta is a not a good example of a Vaisnava. Now if I made that kind of judgment, I would be accused of being offensive. If I were that obsessed with emnity I would research all his posts so I could make some kind of global character judgment and satisfy myself that he is always wrong and I am always right. If I were as much of a troll as he would like to make me out to be, I would never put anybody on ignore...uh prabhu. There are a number of members here who love to engage in flame wars. I'm not one of them.

[♣♣♣]

" BTW he thinks Gobal batta is a not a good example of a Vaisnava."

 

Here he goes with his stuffing words in peoples mouths,

 

I never said this all, I said was he thinks that serving under Ramesvara and Gopal was proper sadhu sanga, I can assure you at the time IT WAS NOT as Ramesvara was completely messing up things and offending Prabupadas other disciples and Gopal was going along with it, of course he was being manipulated by Ramesvara, BUT had the sense to move on after a while, Gopal Bhatta is a Vaishnava very much worth my respect.

 

I was referring to that period which was the INSANE zonal Guru madness in it's heyday.

 

Oh twister of words, you don't fool me at all, nor anyone else who has half a brain.

 

[♣♣♣]

BTW,

I am an old guru bhai of Gopal long before he came to LA and I know for a fact he would NEVER go along with your invented Siddhanta and idiocy.

[AncientMariner]

 

cbrahma's criticisms of the GM (The Gaudiya Math) are part and parcel of their Protestant Christianization of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Not only do they accept that revelation must always come through reading "the books" without the help of a transparent via media in apparent corporal form, but they also believe that the disciples of Prabhupada's godbothers and their disciples and grand disciples are stained with the "original sin" of their param guru's not coming to the West to help Srila Prabhupada. So in this kind of philosophy these persons need no diksa connection with a living line of preceptors yet the persons who are connected by diksa with the disciples of Prabhupada's godbrothers are somehow inheriting the "original sin" of their grandguru (param guru) through the diksa process. What a strange philosophy! Why not just be a Protestant Christian since God is one?

 

I wonder which side is ultimately gonna win the battle. It seems like Krishna takes sides in these battles at least in the Bhagavad Gita it seems that ways. I have seen this battle going on for many years and honestly I can not tell who is winning. From my viewpoint I tend to think that each side is going to continue to philosophically headbutt each other and ultimately the Kali-yuga is just gonna get worse and worse so I guess ultimately the Kali-yuga is winning but I suppose things could change on a moments notice if Krishna wants it to. They say we are entering the golden age of the Caitanya Mahaprabhu. I hope that is the case but it seems from my perspective that Gaudiya Vaisnavism and Krishna Consciousness is still just an obscure cult with very little influence on our society at least in the West, whether you are a "Gaudiya Vaisnavism living guru advocate" or a "Protestant Christian Gaudiya Vaisnava", . I don't know how Gaudiya Vaisnavism is viewed in India as I have never been there.

 

 

I think at the heart of things I am a Protestant Christian in the sense that I do not think you need a middleman to understand the beauty and the wisdom of the life of Jesus so I do not see any shame in being a Protestant Christian so I do not take your characterization of being a Protestant Christian as a bad thing although I can admit that Gaudiya Vaisnavism does appear to be more like Catholicism where you apparently do have to have a middleman to understand Krishna although I view the role of a pure guru like Prabhupada to be much more than just a middleman.

[cbrahma]

 

I wonder which side is ultimately gonna win the battle. It seems like Krishna takes sides in these battles at least in the Bhagavad Gita it seems that ways. I have seen this battle going on for many years and honestly I can not tell who is winning. From my viewpoint I tend to think that each side is going to continue to philosophically headbutt each other and ultimately the Kali-yuga is just gonna get worse and worse so I guess ultimately the Kali-yuga is winning but I suppose things could change on a moments notice if Krishna wants it to. They say we are entering the golden age of the Caitanya Mahaprabhu. I hope that is the case but it seems from my perspective that Gaudiya Vaisnavism and Krishna Consciousness is still just an obscure cult with very little influence on our society at least in the West, whether you are a "Gaudiya Vaisnavism living guru advocate" or a "Protestant Christian Gaudiya Vaisnava", . I don't know how Gaudiya Vaisnavism is viewed in India as I have never been there. Spiritual knowledge, Prabhupada's vani, not surprisingly, can be transmitted spiritually.

 

 

I think at the heart of things I am a Protestant Christian in the sense that I do not think you need a middleman to understand the beauty and the wisdom of the life of Jesus so I do not see any shame in being a Protestant Christian so I do not take your characterization of being a Protestant Christian as a bad thing although I can admit that Gaudiya Vaisnavism does appear to be more like Catholicism where you apparently do have to have a middleman to understand Krishna although I view the role of a pure guru like Prabhupada to be much more than just a middleman.

Beggar's battle lines are drawn according to to his own loyalties and biases of course. He clearly is allied with the GM and my experience with those disciples is that they ( as does ISKCON) indulge in a subtle undermining of Prabhupada's credibility as the main representative of the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya, the 'Sampradaya Acarya'. Why is this minimizing important? Well that's obvious. If you absolutely must have a physically present diksa guru, then

you look around for a living GV guru and lo and behold there are the GM gurus! Their disciples are the 'real' successors , the 'real' Vaisnavas. ISKCON is not different because their guru system was initially ratified by the same GM gurus - belief in a physically present diksa guru - for exactly the same reasons.

The vying for religious entitlement as the true 'inheritors' of Lord Caitanya is material, political and divisive.

Bhaktivinode Thakur had no patience with that sort of sectarian infighting.

He called such squabblers, asses- as opposed to the transcendental swans.

He did not consider being Christian Protestant or Catholic an automatic disqualification, because Vaisnavism isn't a club, a church or any other kind of organization. It is a completely spiritual transcendental society, which is precisely why physical presence isn't the point.

 

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="titlestory" width="329">SRILA BHAKTIVINODA THAKUR ABOUT SECTARIANISM

by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur

 

 

 

 

</td></tr><tr><td class="maintext">Sectarianism is a natural byproduct of the Absolute Truth. When acaryas first ascertain and instruct the Truth, it is not polluted with sectarianism. But the rules and regulations received through disciplic succession regarding the goal and the method of achieving it are changed in due course of time according to the mentality and locale of the people. A rule that is followed by one society is not necessarily accepted in another society. That is why one community is different from another. As a community gradually develops more respect for its own standards, it develops hatred towards other communities and considers their standards inferior. These sectarian symptoms are seen in all countries since time immemorial. This is prominent amongst neophytes and found to some extent amongst madhyama-adhikaris. Amongst uttama-adhikaris, however, there is no trace of sectarianism. Adherence to a particular standard is the prominent symptom of a society. There are three types of standards—alocakagata, alocanagata and alocyagata. Alocakagata is when sectarianists accept some external signs. Examples of alocakagata are tilaka, neck beads, saffron robes, and the baptism that is practiced abroad. The different activities practiced in the process of worship are called alocanagata. Examples of alocanagata are sacrifices, austerities, fire sacrifices, vows, studying scriptures, deity worship, constructing temples, respecting the purity of various trees and rivers, dressing like sannyasis, acting like acaryas, dressing like brahmacaris or grhasthas, closing one's eyes, respecting particular types of books, rules and regulations in eating, and respecting the purity of particular times and places. The examples of alocyagata are attributing personalism or impersonalism on the Supreme Lord, installing deities, exhibiting the mood of an incarnation of the Lord, speculating on heaven and hell, and describing the future destination of the soul. The different forms of these spiritual activities create divisions of sectarianism. Differences that arise from places, times, languages, behaviors, foods, dresses, and natures of various communities are incorporated within people's spiritual practices and gradually make one community so completely different from another community that even the consideration that everyone is a human being may cease to exist. Due to these differences there is disagreement, cessation of social intercourse, and fighting, even up to the point of killing on another. When an ass-like mentality becomes prominent within the kanishta-adhikaris, they certainly indulge in these things. But if they develop a swanlike mentality, then they do not take part in quarrels; rather, they endeavor to attain a higher level. Madhyama-adhikaris do not quarrel so much about external standards, but they are always attacked by philosophical disagreements. Sometimes they condemn the standards as superior. They condemn the neophytes' deity worship in order to establish the worship-able Lord as formless. In such cases, they are also considered ass-like people. Otherwise, if they had a swanlike mentality and a desire to attain a higher level, they would respect others' practices and inquire about higher topics. Contradictions actually arise only due to ass-like mentality. Swanlike persons consider the necessity for different practices to one's qualification, so they are naturally detached from sectarian quarrels. In this regard, it should be understood that both ass-like and swanlike people are found amongst the kanishta-adhikaris and madhyama-adhikaris. </td></tr></tbody></table>

[AncientMariner]

 

Beggar's battle lines are drawn according to to his own loyalties and biases of course. He clearly is allied with the GM and my experience with those disciples is that they ( as does ISKCON) indulge in a subtle undermining of Prabhupada's credibility as the main representative of the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya, the 'Sampradaya Acarya'. Why is this minimizing important? Well that's obvious. If you absolutely must have a physically present diksa guru, then

you look around for a living GV guru and lo and behold there are the GM gurus! Their disciples are the 'real' successors , the 'real' Vaisnavas. ISKCON is not different because their guru system was initially ratified by the same GM gurus - belief in a physically present diksa guru - for exactly the same reasons.

The vying for religious entitlement as the true 'inheritors' of Lord Caitanya is material, political and divisive.

Bhaktivinode Thakur had no patience with that sort of sectarian infighting.

He called such squabblers, asses- as opposed to the transcendental swans.

He did not consider being Christian Protestant or Catholic an automatic disqualification, because Vaisnavism isn't a club, a church or any other kind of organization. It is a completely spiritual transcendental society, which is precisely why physical presence isn't the point.

 

 

I know your popularity level on this forum is probably pretty low but I really enjoy the intelligence of your debates and enjoy reading your posts. I feel like I am even learning a little bit about proper debate from your knowledge so I hope you continue to keep posting even though people do not seem to like you much.

[cbrahma]

 

I know your popularity level on this forum is probably pretty low but I really enjoy the intelligence of your debates and enjoy reading your posts. I feel like I am even learning a little bit about proper debate from your knowledge so I hope you continue to keep posting even though people do not seem to like you much.

It's only a couple of 'people'. The triple dot, a new member who went ballistic and Vedesu. Everybody else who I don't want to deal with, I've got on ignore. There's still plently left. And one has to realize that Krsna consciousness since Prabhupada's leaving has pretty much descended into traditional Hinduism, with the whole religious protocol of initiation, rites and distinctions.

Thanks.

[jijaji]

Where does Ananta dasa babaji and other Babajis from traditional orthodox Gaudiya Vaishnava lines fit into all this?

[suchandra]

 

Where does Ananta dasa babaji and other Babajis from traditional orthodox Gaudiya Vaishnava lines fit into all this?

My dear Rupanuga Maharaja,

 

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter of April 17, from Washington D.C. and I have very carefully noted the contents.

 

[...] Actually amongst my godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them. This attempt was made previously by them, especially [names three sannyasi godbrothers] but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them.[...]

 

Since the recipients of basically all these letters left Prabhupada's movement - could be that the whole thing has to be seen through sastra and not through instructions according time and circumstance.

In other words, is Ananta dasa Babaji an uttama adikari, what can be answered, to what degree did he accomplish to fullfill the orders of his guru?

[theist]

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by AncientMariner

I know your popularity level on this forum is probably pretty low but I really enjoy the intelligence of your debates and enjoy reading your posts. I feel like I am even learning a little bit about proper debate from your knowledge so I hope you continue to keep posting even though people do not seem to like you much.

</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

I second that even though we don't agree 100% on everything (we do on most) and would only add that for our own peace of mind we must control our propensity to get angry.