Definition Of Diksha

[AncientMariner]

 

To each their own. Any guru is merely a tool and a servant of Sri Guru, Krsna. I received the mantra in the chain of disciplic succession. That is all that counts. I did not take the mantra from the book. It was given to me by a then representative of Parampara.

 

You can be a disciple of Prabhupada without getting diksa from him. No problem. But claiming to be getting diksa from a departed guru is a joke. Only the brainwashed Iskcon devotees buy such fairytales.

 

 

I guess it depends on what diksa actually is. I have heard it is just a ceremony and I have heard it is the tranfer of spiritual knowledge from guru to disciple. I definetly still think that Prabhupada is capable of transferring spiritual knowledge to people that read his books. That potency is still there in my opinion. I thought I even read somewhere about a spiritual master taking formal diksa from a picture of his guru or something like that. As far as you recieving diksa from a representative of the parampara, I don't if your guru was a representative or not and ultimately that is up to Krishna to decide and not me.

[Beggar]

Remember devotees like cbrahma and theist according to the parts of their life stories (as they have given), had some personal association with Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada. Even if that association was very brief, it was none the less very powerful. In the association of such a powerful guru, anything is possible, so who dares judge that? But the general dictum is that one should take formal diska or initiation for hare nama and gayatri mantras.

 

<table style="border-collapse: collapse;" border="0" cellspacing="5" width="85%"><tbody><tr><td rowspan="2" valign="top" width="10">

</td> <!-- Left table --> <td rowspan="2" valign="top" width="100%"> <!-- end of heading--> <!-- start of body --> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="Title" align="center">Criticize and Lose the Holy Name</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <hr> <table align="right" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="203"> <tbody><tr> <td> Srila Narayana Maharaja

</td> </tr> </tbody></table> Bhagavat Saptah [Part 1]

Mathura, India: 1994

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

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Today is the third day of our Srimad-Bhagavatam classes. We are in the midst of relating the history of Ajamila and the glories of chanting the holy names of the Lord. We see here that the holy name is so powerful that one does not require diksa (brahminical initiation), or the five activities performed before taking diksa, to assure full success. Just by naming his son Narayana, which is the name of one of Lord Krsna's incarnations, Ajamila began chanting the Lord's Holy Name. He had he taken diksa when he first spoke the name of Narayana. Furthermore, he was so fallen that there was not a single sin he had not committed. He used to take intoxication and engage in other illicit activities. Such a person uttered the name of the Lord when he named his son Narayana, and received so much benefit.

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says that the very day Ajamila named his son Narayana, all his sins were finished – just by his first utterance of the holy name. After that, the rest of the holy names he called out constituted his sadhana. We see that all the while he was taking the name, he continued to act unlawfully – stealing, taking intoxication and so on. However, we should not consider his behavior at this point to be sinful. Yes, these activities were going on, but they had no power in them. You can understand it like this – if you put some peas in the ground, they will sprout and grow. Now roast some peas and try to grow them. Even if you fertilize the ground with many kilos of icow dung and give it plenty of water, they will not sprout. Similarly, all Ajamila’s sins were burned, simply by his calling out the names of Narayana. Now his unlawful activities, which seemed like lowly fruitive activities in the eyes of ordinary persons, no longer constituted sin. His activities can be compared with a snake whose poisonous teeth have been pulled out. The snake still continues to bite because it is his habit, but there is no more poison. Similarly, now Ajamila’s unlawful activities had no power to give any fruits to bind him. If a rope is burnt, its shape is still there in the ashes, but when one touches the ashes, the shape falls apart and cannot be used as a rope.

The result of Ajamila chanting the names of Lord Narayana was that he attained the association of the Visnudutas, who are associates of the Lord Himself, and inadvertently took diksa initiation from them. Up to that point his chanting was called nama-abhasa (the clearing stage of chanting), because whatever else he did, he had not committed any offences to a Vaisnava. He had not disrespected the Vaisnavas in this life or any previous life. By his nama-abhasa he received the association of the Visnudutas, who gave him diksa and explained to him the full glories of the holy names.

sadhu-sanga, nama-kirtana, bhagavata sravanam

mathura-vasa, sri-murtira sraddhaya sevana

sakala-sadhana srestha ei panca anga

krsna prema janmaye e panca

(CC Madhya 22.128-129)

Srila Rupa Gosvami has promised: “One should stay in Vrndavana under the guidance of a sadhu, chant the holy names, hear Srimad Bhagavatam from the lotus mouth of a rasika Vaisnava and serve the Deity of the Lord. There is no doubt that by performing these five activities one will surely receive krsna-prema.” However, there is one condition – there should be no disrespect or offence to the Vaisnava.

This is our dilemma. We are doing hari-nama, staying in the holy place and hearing Bhagavatam, but we are not really hearing. Sometimes, some of us only act as if we are following. We speak publicly on the Bhagavatam and give instructions to others, but we do not protect ourselves from offense to Vaisnavas. Joking and laughing, we somehow disrespect or criticize Vaisnavas. The holy name (who is God Himself) cannot tolerate this. Therefore, we deceive ourselves and we are deprived of the real fruit of chanting the holy name. In this way, many lifetimes are wasted....

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[AncientMariner]

 

Remember devotees like cbrahma and theist according to the parts of their life stories (as they have given), had some personal association with Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada. Even if that association was very brief, it was none the less very powerful. In the association of such a powerful guru, anything is possible, so who dares judge that? But the general dictum is that one should take form diska or initiation for hare nama and gayatri mantras.

 

 

I had association with devotees in the Seatlle airport in 1999 or so that said Prabhupada was their spiritual master. They were mostly clean cut young Indian men. Not bragging or anything but I have had some association with devotees or at least they said Prabhupada was their spiritual master and they were handing out books.

[cbrahma]

I wonder about the status of those 'Guadiya Vaisvanas' that chose to remain in India while Prabhupad travelled the word to preach the mission of Lord Caitanya. When I hear how so many 'Vaisnavas' believe this and that - especially of a religious institutional nature, I am skeptical - why didn't they help Prabhupada, join forces with him instead of criticizing him for 'compromising'

 

The idea of an organized church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dikes and dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bona-fide spiritual teacher. The people of this world understand preventive systems, they have no idea at all of the unprevented positive eternal life. Neither can there be any earthy contrivance for the permanent preservation of the life eternal on this mundane plane on the popular scale.

 

 

by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur

 

 

 

 

[AncientMariner]

 

I wonder about the status of those 'Guadiya Vaisvanas' that chose to remain in India while Prabhupad travelled the word to preach the mission of Lord Caitanya. When I hear how so many 'Vaisnavas' believe this and that - especially of a religious institutional nature, I am skeptical - why didn't they help Prabhupada, join forces with him instead of criticizing him for 'compromising'

 

 

That does seem to be a valid question. I really do not know much about Prabhupada's Godbrothers but your question does seem valid to me but it will probably be viewed as aparadha by members of this forum.

[suchandra]

 

If formal diksa is a requirement what constitutes formal diksa for a Christian? I know the answer - I just want to know if you do.

I just presented it that way to get off the sectarian platform and come to a spiritual understanding acceptable by all kind of theists. Not that I wanted to bring in Christianity, they same can be said about Islam. Lord Caitanya never said Islam is a bogus religion. No great Vaishnava acarya would ever say that Jesus is a bogus man and Christianity a nonsense. However, this is clearly the mood of present ISKCON, to unneccessarily bad-mouth other religions and at the same time not accomplishing their own homework of explaining what is the differences between a fallible priest and a genuine maha-bhagavat diksa-guru. They say it is all one.

 

We have great respect for Lord Jesus Christ. We accept him as powerful incarnation of Krishna, as much as we accept Lord Buddha. We can adjust the Buddhists, Christians, and even the Mohammedans to our KC movement, so if the religious heads of these faiths try to understand our philosophy, certainly there will be great impetus in the matter of spiritual rejuvenation of the world.

 

03 June 2005

Tuesday, June 3, 1969 New Vrindaban

 

[suchandra]

 

If someone reads Prabhupada's books and starts chanting as a result is that considered as recieving the mantra from a guru?

 

This is of course the same like personally getting the maha-mantra directly from Srila Prabhupada.

[AncientMariner]

 

This is of course the same like personally getting the maha-mantra directly from Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

That is the way I view it as well based on what I read in Prabhupadas books about the book bhagavata and the person bhagavata being identical and some quotes that Prabhupada and his guru emphasized book distribution over temple building and stuff like that. There may have been a time where it was practical to always have a bonafide living guru reading to you and spanking you when you were bad but as the Kali-yuga progresses it seems there are more and more religous cheaters the whole living guru concept seems like a minefield of exploitation.

[bhaktajan]

 

Remember devotees like cbrahma and theist according to the parts of their life stories (as they have given), had some personal association with Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada. Even if that association was very brief, it was none the less very powerful. In the association of such a powerful guru, anything is possible, so who dares judge that? But the general dictum is that one should take formal diska or initiation for hare nama and gayatri mantras.

 

Beggar may be a Grey hair, but in his heart he's still an Ankle biter.

He's such a dear Bastard amongst us posters here.

After all his satirical postings he's still considered here to be a real Battler.

He might block a bloke by being blokey.

A new comer may think Begger is a Blow in or

Bludger or even maybe a Bogan but he's never a Bounce.

Sometimes wonder if Begger is a bushie Bushranger or even a Cadbury.

But Begger never seems cranky but rather a real dag.

I may be a dill. I've been called a Dipstick—but if I'm around devotees I never feel like a Dero.

Sometimes I do sound like a Frog in a sock galah without a brass razoo's worth of a fund of knowledge.

No I'm not full here. I may just be a figjam.

Please don't think me a hoon but just a friendly Jackaroo looking for a sincere Jillaroo mataji. I know I must sound like such a knocker or a Larrikin but I'm not, may be just a mug.

Yes, I'm a bit of a mallee bull no-hoper ocker, but that's because I usually satisfied being a offsider.

Please forgive me for any offenses I've made to anyone reading this, I do consider youse to be rellie.

Now most here who are posting here are not shark biscuits and most are not shonky but real sooks & real stickybeaks who never call any one a ratbag unless it's absolutely necessary.

We all reffo surfies from heaven or are we really Swagmen fending off Tall poppies because we have the vejjo tickets?

We love Begger, he's true blue vaisnava maybe a wowser now and then.

Just another yobbo,

Bhaktajan

[Kulapavana]

 

I wonder about the status of those 'Guadiya Vaisvanas' that chose to remain in India while Prabhupad travelled the word to preach the mission of Lord Caitanya. When I hear how so many 'Vaisnavas' believe this and that - especially of a religious institutional nature, I am skeptical - why didn't they help Prabhupada, join forces with him instead of criticizing him for 'compromising'

 

what ever happened to to just being a humble servant of Krsna? You mean unless all these Vaishnavas went to preach in America they are useless??? What kind of karma-kanda thinking is that? Prabhupada's Godbrothers helped him on numerous ocassions. If he was not happy with them, that is between them only, not me. I have never heard any of his Godbrothers openly say such cutting words as Prabhupada said about them. Still, it is their fight, not mine.

[Beggar]

 

This is of course the same like personally getting the maha-mantra directly from Srila Prabhupada.

If this were the case then after his heart attack in 1967 Prabhupada would have permanently retired to India, wrote his books from there and sent audio cassette tapes of his lectures and talks back to his Western temples. But he didn't he contiuned despite failing health to travel all over the world to give his association and initiate disciples. Of course sometimes he would chant on beads and have them sent to the devotees or some devotees heard the gayatris spoken by Srila Prabhupada only on tape. But behind this was Srila Prabhupada's specific intention to accept a particular disciple. There are always exceptions to a rule because there are exceptional people. Suppose one had diksa in a previous life or lives and had a very high level of advancement. That person would receive so much benefit from reading Srila Prabhupada's books. But if their sukrti and understanding was high enough then they would be inspired by the books to seek out the association of a person who personified the books, the person bhagavat.

[Kulapavana]

 

I thought I even read somewhere about a spiritual master taking formal diksa from a picture of his guru or something like that.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta took sannyasa initiation in front of a picture of his babaji guru, Srila Gaurakishora, taking the sannyasa mantra internally from his guru.

 

I dare anybody to proclaim they are qualified to do the same with their diksa.

[Kulapavana]

 

I get the difference between a formal diksa and an essential one. You don't seem to get it though.

 

What you dont get, is that you have to have BOTH.

 

Prabhupada's disciples keep concocting new definitions for everything, just for their convenience, re-discovering America hidden under a sheet of newspaper...

[AncientMariner]

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta took sannyasa initiation in front of a picture of his babaji guru, Srila Gaurakishora, taking the sannyasa mantra internally from his guru.

 

I dare anybody to proclaim they are qualified to do the same with their diksa.

 

 

I am definetly not qualified but I do think it would be theoretically possible to internally take diksa from Prabhupada and couldn't blame someone who is qualified for doing so considering the minefield that the living guru option is and the ritvik option is.

[Kulapavana]

 

I am definetly not qualified but I do think it would be theoretically possible to internally take diksa from Prabhupada and couldn't blame someone who is qualified for doing so considering the minefield that the living guru option is and the ritvik option is.

 

You honestly think that some neophyte reading a book has what it takes to RECEIVE the diksa mantras internally from Prabhupada?? Give me break, man..

[Kulapavana]

 

If this were the case then after his heart attack in 1967 Prabhupada would have permanently retired to India, wrote his books from there and sent audio cassette tapes of his lectures and talks back to his Western temples. But he didn't he contiuned despite failing health to travel all over the world to give his association and initiate disciples.

 

He also physically CAME to America in the first place, and did not just send a trunk with books to a bookstore in New York. Without his PHYSICAL presence there absolutely NOTHING would have happened.

[AncientMariner]

 

You honestly think that some neophyte reading a book has what it takes to RECEIVE the diksa mantras internally from Prabhupada?? Give me break, man..

 

 

Yes I definetly think that a neophyte reading Prabhupadas books can get spiritual knowledge from reading Prabhuapdas books. They have that potency even though Prabhupada is not physically here in my opinion.

[suchandra]

 

If this were the case then after his heart attack in 1967 Prabhupada would have permanently retired to India, wrote his books from there and sent audio cassette tapes of his lectures and talks back to his Western temples. But he didn't he contiuned despite failing health to travel all over the world to give his association and initiate disciples. Of course sometimes he would chant on beads and have them sent to the devotees or some devotees heard the gayatris spoken by Srila Prabhupada only on tape. But behind this was Srila Prabhupada's specific intention to accept a particular disciple. There are always exceptions to a rule because there are exceptional people. Suppose one had diksa in a previous life or lives and had a very high level of advancement. That person would receive so much benefit from reading Srila Prabhupada's books. But if their sukrti and understanding was high enough then they would be inspired by the books to seek out the association of a person who personified the books, the person bhagavat.

The person bhagavat is Prabhupada, agreed. When people read Prabhupada's books their natural inclination is to find out people who have also read Prabhupada's books, have the books internalized and develop a friendship with such devotees.

However, when finding out that these devotees have another guru and Prabhupada is for them something like dead and gone makes them dissappointed - they usually leave and don't sincerely take up spiritual live. The present situation that Hindus assemble in Western temples and develop congragations is rather a changing the function from Vaishnava temple towards social services department for emigrated Hindus. Could be however that this is all Krsna's plan to spread the sankirtan movement in this way gradually things will develop and nice Vaishnavas are trained.

[cbrahma]

 

What you dont get, is that you have to have BOTH.

 

Prabhupada's disciples keep concocting new definitions for everything, just for their convenience, re-discovering America hidden under a sheet of newspaper...

No concoction required. I have Prabhupada saying that the formality is not important.

I get it. Prabhupada gets it. I've quoted him. Wake me up when you get it.

[Kulapavana]

 

Yes I definetly think that a neophyte reading Prabhupadas books can get spiritual knowledge from reading Prabhuapdas books. They have that potency even though Prabhupada is not physically here in my opinion.

 

Of course the books have some potency, and I have seen it. But it is a potency to get you started in the process, not the potency to internally receive the diksa mantras from a departed guru. Nobody got a diksa from Srila Vyasadeva by reading a copy of his Srimad Bhagatam. Neither can anybody get a diksa from Prabhupada by reading his books. That is completely absurd.

[Kulapavana]

 

No concoction required. I have Prabhupada saying that the formality is not important.

I get it. Prabhupada gets it. I've quoted him.

 

Somehow it is a 'formality' that Prabhupada himself NEVER neglected when it came to his disciples.

[AncientMariner]

 

Of course the books have some potency, and I have seen it. But it is a potency to get you started in the process, not the potency to internally receive the diksa mantras from a departed guru. Nobody got a diksa from Srila Vyasadeva by reading a copy of his Srimad Bhagatam. Neither can anybody get a diksa from Prabhupada by reading his books. That is completely absurd.

 

 

My understanding of the word diksa is that it means the transfer of spiritual knowledge from the spiritual master to the disciple. Apparently there is some sort of ceremony that is supposed to formalize this but even that apparently doesn't guarantee anything becuase even people that undergo that formal ceremony often give up spiritual life and people even undergo this formal ceremony from gurus that eventually end up giving up spiritual life.

[AncientMariner]

 

Somehow it is a 'formality' that Prabhupada himself NEVER neglected when it came to his disciples.

 

 

It is my understanding that he apparently qualified it however as a formality even though he went through it with his disciples.

[Kulapavana]

 

My understanding of the word diksa is that it means the transfer of spiritual knowledge from the spiritual master to the disciple. Apparently there is some sort of ceremony that is supposed to formalize this but even that apparently doesn't guarantee anything becuase even people that undergo that formal ceremony often give up spiritual life and people even undergo this formal ceremony from gurus that eventually end up giving up spiritual life.

 

Diksa is a transfer of the Gayatri mantra from a proper (potent) guru to a proper (eager or fertile) disciple. It is the mantra that is the knowledge in the seed form. It has nothing to do with a transfer of book knowledge.

[Kulapavana]

 

It is my understanding that he apparently qualified it however as a formality even though he went through it with his disciples.

 

Prabhupada de-emphasized the actual act of diksa to his disciples, because he wanted them to take the inner sense of diksa very seriously. However, BOTH must be there for the process to work.