Definition Of Diksha

[AncientMariner]

 

Diksa is a transfer of the Gayatri mantra from a proper (potent) guru to a proper (eager or fertile) disciple. It is the mantra that is the knowledge in the seed form. It has nothing to do with a transfer of book knowledge.

 

I guess you think Srimad Bhagavatam is an ordinary book.

[AncientMariner]

 

Diksa is a transfer of the Gayatri mantra from a proper (potent) guru to a proper (eager or fertile) disciple. It is the mantra that is the knowledge in the seed form. It has nothing to do with a transfer of book knowledge.

 

So you consider the guru you got the mantra from to be a proper guru considering that he stole money from Iskcon?

[suchandra]

 

Of course the books have some potency, and I have seen it. But it is a potency to get you started in the process, not the potency to internally receive the diksa mantras from a departed guru. Nobody got a diksa from Srila Vyasadeva by reading a copy of his Srimad Bhagatam. Neither can anybody get a diksa from Prabhupada by reading his books. That is completely absurd.

To jump over all the members of the disciplic succession right to Srila Vyasadeva and using him to explain that an acarya is deceased and gone is rather ambivalent, too extreme and not the way Vaishnavas would explain things.

To consider Prabhupada as current acarya because so far no one really believable has emerged is rather the more natural approach for the camp of sincere Vaishnavas. Like when Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja left and all the sane devotees knew that the only thing absurd is to install questionable people who turned the GM into a fiasco that hardly pressed down on the development of Gaudiya Vaishnavaism and the global spreading of the Holy Name. In fact without Srila Prabhupada having taken such rigorous steps and leaving the GM and starting his own movement, would there be any Vaishnavas in US or the Western world? No! This we can say with 100% certainty.

[Kulapavana]

 

So you consider the guru you got the mantra from to be a proper guru considering that he stole money from Iskcon?

 

At the time of my diksa initiation (1980) he represented the parampara properly. It is not just my opinion. He was the obedient servant of Sri Guru and our Parampara.

[cbrahma]

 

Somehow it is a 'formality' that Prabhupada himself NEVER neglected when it came to his disciples.

He did a lot of things - some were religiously unorthodox like giving women brahminical initiation. I'm not going to second guess his motives. I just go by what he said - in several places - it is consistent with his emphasis on hari-nama sankirtana and book distribution as vehicles of spiritual power.

[cbrahma]

one more time

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The idea of an organized church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dikes and dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bona-fide spiritual teacher. The people of this world understand preventive systems, they have no idea at all of the unprevented positive eternal life. Neither can there be any earthy contrivance for the permanent preservation of the life eternal on this mundane plane on the popular scale.

 

 

by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[AncientMariner]

 

At the time of my diksa initiation (1980) he represented the parampara properly. It is not just my opinion. He was the obedient servant of Sri Guru and our Parampara.

 

 

Maybe so, who am I to judge. I just wasn't aware that bonafide diksa gurus can fall down but I have read of temporary falldowns in Srimad Bhagavatam. Hopefully that is the case with your guru and maybe someday he will rectify himself.

[Kulapavana]

 

To jump over all the members of the disciplic succession right to Srila Vyasadeva and using him to explain that an acarya is deceased and gone is rather ambivalent, too extreme and not the way Vaishnavas would explain things.

 

As far as I know, NOBODY, in the entire history of the Vedic tradition, have claimed to have received a diksa from anybody just by reading a book.

[Kulapavana]

 

I just wasn't aware that bonafide diksa gurus can fall down but I have read of temporary falldowns in Srimad Bhagavatam. Hopefully that is the case with your guru and maybe someday he will rectify himself.

 

His falldown appears to be temporary and he is quite visibly coming around. However, I have moved on and took siksa from various Vaishnavas in a substantial way. It is important to point out that despite his obvious and real shortcomings my diksa guru is still actively worshipping Krsna and maintaining some level of sadhana. I definitely still consider him a Vaishnava (he even maintains the Deity worship at home).

[Kulapavana]

 

He did a lot of things - some were religiously unorthodox like giving women brahminical initiation.

 

You ask: so what that he always performed a formal diksa for his disciples?

 

Like I said: It means that you must have BOTH for the process to work.

 

As to Prabhupada giving brahminical initiation to women - that is not so revolutionary. In all Vaishnava traditions initiated women get a mantra, but it is usually not the Savitri Gayatri mantra. Some Arya Samaj chapters even give women the brahminical thread.

[suchandra]

 

As far as I know, NOBODY, in the entire history of the Vedic tradition, have claimed to have received a diksa from anybody just by reading a book.

Well, it is somewhat shocking that all what you learned from Prabhupada's books makes you conclude, it is, "just reading a book". Reminds of seeing the Holy Dham as a dirty place, the Deitie as a stone and the guru as ordinairy person.

Rather expected to hear from a resident of Prabhupada Village that when opening Prabhupada's books it is like entering Vaikuntha, the eternal spiritual kingdom of Lord Sri Krsna and experiencing the unending transcendental nectar and joy of pure devotional service.

Now this all became "reading a book"?

[Kulapavana]

 

Well, it is somewhat shocking that all what you learned from Prabhupada's books makes you conclude, it is, "just reading a book". Reminds of seeing the Holy Dham as a dirty place, the Deitie as a stone and the guru as ordinairy person.

Rather expected to hear from a resident of Prabhupada Village that when opening Prabhupada's books it is like entering Vaikuntha, the eternal spiritual kingdom of Krsna and experiencing the unending transcendental nectar and joy of pure devotional service.

Now this all became "reading a book"?

 

The fact still is:

 

As far as I know, NOBODY, in the entire history of the Vedic tradition, have claimed to have received a diksa from anybody just by reading a book.

 

Yes, for a discriminating reader these books can be a window into the spiritual world, but not diksa.

[suchandra]

 

The fact still is:

 

As far as I know, NOBODY, in the entire history of the Vedic tradition, have claimed to have received a diksa from anybody just by reading a book.

 

Yes, for a discriminating reader these books can be a window into the spiritual world, but not diksa.

Since the meaning of "di" from diksha is divyam jnanam, would you at least agree that there's spiritual knowledge in those books? And if spiritual knowledge is actually there, wouldn't it also destroy sin, "ksha"? 'Ksha' stands for sankshayam, to dissipate.

 

 

Monday, January 6, 1969 Los Angeles, Calif.

 

So the first medicine which you should be concerned with is to chant Hare Krishna and to become increasingly steady in Krishna Consciousness. Study Bhagavad-gita As It Is and Srimad-Bhagavatam and continue to help your god-brothers in developing Krishna Consciousness. So develop your preaching abilities in this way, and this will be the most successful and appreciated endeavor.

[Kulapavana]

 

Since the meaning of "di" from diksha is divyam jnanam, would you at least agree that there's spiritual knowledge in those books? And if spiritual knowledge is actually there, wouldn't it also destroy sin, "ksha"? 'Ksha' stands for sankshayam, to dissipate.

 

so every time you read a book written by a different Vaishnava you get a diksa from him???

 

the divya-jnana is the diksa MANTRA, and it is the mantra which destroys sin.

[cbrahma]

 

You ask: so what that he always performed a formal diksa for his disciples?

 

Like I said: It means that you must have BOTH for the process to work.

 

As to Prabhupada giving brahminical initiation to women - that is not so revolutionary. In all Vaishnava traditions initiated women get a mantra, but it is usually not the Savitri Gayatri mantra. Some Arya Samaj chapters even give women the brahminical thread.

 

Doesn't prove that he considered formal diksa necessary. He was building his society.

 

 

BOTH for the process to work

What process? What is it? A widget?

 

This ridiculous argument touting religious rituals has convinced me of the futility of chanting. I was thinking about taking it up but on further consideration - I think I'll spare myself all the complications and exquisite torture.

[Kulapavana]

 

Doesn't prove that he considered formal diksa necessary. He was building his society.

 

 

What process? What is it? A widget?

 

He did it every time (formal initiation), yet he considered it unneccessary??? Strange logic. Besides what is the shastric definition of a Vaishnava?

 

"Haribhakti Vilasa (1.55) says gRhIta-viSNu-dIkSAko viSNu-pUjA-paro naraH vaiSNavo’bhihito’bhijnair itaro’smAd avaiSNavaH - "A Vaishnava is someone who has taken initiation in Vishnu mantra and is actively engaged in serving Vishnu. All others are avaishnavas."

 

What Prabhupada said must be viewed in the light of shastra. End of story.

[AncientMariner]

 

He did it every time (formal initiation), yet he considered it unneccessary??? Strange logic. Besides what is the shastric definition of a Vaishnava?

 

"Haribhakti Vilasa (1.55) says gRhIta-viSNu-dIkSAko viSNu-pUjA-paro naraH vaiSNavo’bhihito’bhijnair itaro’smAd avaiSNavaH - "A Vaishnava is someone who has taken initiation in Vishnu mantra and is actively engaged in serving Vishnu. All others are avaishnavas."

 

What Prabhupada said must be viewed in the light of shastra. End of story.

 

 

I read somewhere that Prabhupada initiated some disciples by tape recording.

[cbrahma]

 

I read somewhere that Prabhupada initiated some disciples by tape recording.

 

"So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That is real association." (Lectures SB, 68/08/18)

"It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life."

(S.B. 3:31:48)

"Reception of spiritual knowledge is never checked by any material condition."

(S.B. (1987Ed.) 7.7.1.)

"The potency of transcendental sound is never minimised because the vibrator is apparently absent." (S.B. 2.9.8.)

"The spiritual master by his words, can penetrate into the heart of the suffering person and inject knowledge transcendental which alone can extinguish the fire of material existence." (SB(1987 Ed) 1.7.22)

"He lives forever by his divine instructions, and the follower lives with him."

(S.B. (1962 Ed) Preface)

"The influence of the pure devotee is such that if someone comes to associate with him with a little faith, he gets the chance of hearing about the Lord from authoritative scriptures like Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad Gita. This is the first stage of association with the pure devotee."

(Nectar of Devotion, (1982 Ed.), p146)

"Krsna and his representative are the same. Similarly, the spiritual master can be present wherever the disciple wants. A spiritual master is the principle, not the body. Just like a television can be seen in thousands of place by the principle of relay monitoring."

(Letter to Malati, 28/5/68)

"These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads, he is hearing." (Letter to Rupanuga Das, 19/10/74)

"Eternal bond between disciple and Spiritual Master begins from the day he hears."

(Letter to Jadurani, 4/9/72)

 

[Kulapavana]

 

This ridiculous argument touting religious rituals has convinced me of the futility of chanting. I was thinking about taking it up but on further consideration - I think I'll spare myself all the complications and exquisite torture.

 

So chanting of the Holy Name is now a 'ritual'?? Wow! Looks like your "diksa from books" is really working... Such divya-jnana emanates from your statements....

 

Wake up and smell the compost: instead of reworking the standard definitions of diksa in our tradition just go back to the basics: sravanam, kirtanam, vishnu smaranam...

[cbrahma]

 

He did it every time (formal initiation), yet he considered it unneccessary??? Strange logic. Besides what is the shastric definition of a Vaishnava?

 

"Haribhakti Vilasa (1.55) says gRhIta-viSNu-dIkSAko viSNu-pUjA-paro naraH vaiSNavo’bhihito’bhijnair itaro’smAd avaiSNavaH - "A Vaishnava is someone who has taken initiation in Vishnu mantra and is actively engaged in serving Vishnu. All others are avaishnavas."

 

What Prabhupada said must be viewed in the light of shastra. End of story.

Somebody may always do something without considering it absolutely necessary. There are many practices Prabhupad followed that were not absolutely necessary like singing 'Radha Mahava' before class.

It is your logic which is faulty - turning an 'is' into an 'ought'.

Your quote begs the question of the meaning of initiation.

And what precisely is the 'Visnu' mantra?

[Kulapavana]

 

I read somewhere that Prabhupada initiated some disciples by tape recording.

 

If he decided to initiate someone by tape recording than Lord Krsna certainly made sure it was a valid initiation. But that is not a blanket policy or an excuse to claim that you can get diksa by reading a book. Prabhupada did not tell him: "Oh, just read my books and you will be initiated!" No, he sent that disciple a tape with a diksa mantra specifically for his use.

[cbrahma]

 

So chanting of the Holy Name is now a 'ritual'?? Wow! Looks like your "diksa from books" is really working... Such divya-jnana emanates from your statements....

 

Wake up and smell the compost: instead of reworking the standard definitions of diksa in our tradition just go back to the basics: sravanam, kirtanam, vishnu smaranam...

Obvious straw man.

I know it's tough but try to stay with me. It is the formal diksa that I am calling a ritual and all the of the complicated religious protocol and system of credentials that comes with it.

[Kulapavana]

 

Somebody may always do something without considering it absolutely necessary. There are many practices Prabhupad followed that were not absolutely necessary like singing 'Radha Mahava' before class.

It is your logic which is faulty - turning an 'is' into an 'ought'.

Your quote begs the question of the meaning of initiation.

And what precisely is the 'Visnu' mantra?

 

I gave you a most definitive quote from our shastra, and you still claim it is no argument! "A Vaishnava is someone who has taken initiation in Vishnu mantra and is actively engaged in serving Vishnu. All others are avaishnavas." Why do you claim that what Prabhupada said trumps Hari-bhakti-vilasa? That is anarchy.

 

 

Vishnu mantra is a mantra used for diksa initiation in a particular Vaishnava sampradaya. Each sampradaya has a slightly different Gayatri mantra that is given to new disciples. That mantra carries a particular divine knowledge and rasa promoted by that disciplic succession.

[cbrahma]

 

Srila Prabhupada adjusted the formalities of worship and initiations according to time, place an circumstance. This is under the direction of Lord Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Only the topmost devotee situated in full love of Godhead, a bona fide fully realized Uttama- Adhikari, can do this. He did not change the essence of the sastras. A neophyte either kanistha neophyte or madhyama a neophyte does not have the power to do this.

 

Srila Prabhupada explains this principle in the fourth canto of the Srimad-Bhagavatam:

 

“One has to consider the particular time, country and conveniences. What is convenient in India may not be convenient in the Western countries. Those who are not actually in the line of acaryas or who personally have no knowledge how to act in the role of acarya, unnecessarily criticize the activities of the ISKCON movement in countries outside of India. The fact is that such critics cannot do anything personally to spread Krishna Consciousness. If someone does go and preach, taking all risks and allowing all consideration for time and place, it might be that there are changes in the manner of worship, but that is not faulty according to the sastra" (17)

 

Here are several examples of some of these so-called unprecedented activities.

 

1) Srila Prabhupada crossed the ocean by boat. This is technically forbidden in the Vedas. Srila Prabhupada explains this in the Vaisisthya-Astakam [Phalguna-Krsna-Pancami 1961]

 

“Hindus are not allowed to cross the ocean, but you send your devotees overseas to preach." (l8)

 

However, Srila Prabhupada explains “Just like formerly, parivraja, Caitanya Mahaprabhu walked on the street. There was no aeroplane or... or he did not use it. Does it mean that I shall have to follow that? I must take the jet engine, if it is available. If somebody criticizes, "Caitanya Mahaprabhu walked on leg and you are traveling in the jet plane?" Shall I have to take that ideal? These are all rascaldom. When you have to work with the greatest facility. That's all"(l9)

 

[Beggar]

 

No concoction required. I have Prabhupada saying that the formality is not important.

I get it. Prabhupada gets it. I've quoted him. Wake me up when you get it.

 

Its the basic principle - form or formality always is less important than the substance of anything. The statement, "clothes makes the man", is a superficial approach for a great man is a great man, whether he wears fashionable clothes or not. But does this mean that we should abandon wearing clothes and go naked in public? This is the logic of persons like cbrahma. They are so sectarean and neophyte that they think that Prabhupada is the only one who taught that formality is not important.

And in every diksa line amongst the Gaudiya Vaisnavas the diksa line continues in the disciplic succession. But they think that Srila Prabhupada's line should stop with him and that aspirants should be initiated by his books. Why is everyone else wearing clothes? Why did both Krsna and Mahaprabhu take formal diksa?