Definition Of Diksha

[cbrahma]

 

I gave you a most definitive quote from our shastra, and you still claim it is no argument! "A Vaishnava is someone who has taken initiation in Vishnu mantra and is actively engaged in serving Vishnu. All others are avaishnavas." Why do you claim that what Prabhupada said trumps Hari-bhakti-vilasa? That is anarchy.

 

 

Vishnu mantra is a mantra used for diksa initiation in a particular Vaishnava sampradaya. Each sampradaya has a slightly different Gayatri mantra that is given to new disciples. That mantra carries a particular divine knowledge and rasa promoted by that disciplic succession.

You were running two arguments simultaneously.

1 That Prabhupada always did it, therefore it is necessary.

2 That Hari-bhakti-vilasa speaks of initiation and therefore formal diksa is necessary.

 

Answers (one more time)

1. is not ought

2. begs the question of what initiation means.

 

Now you're talking about a specific Gayatri and I was talking about the MahaMantra.

Try to stay with me.

[cbrahma]

 

2) Srila Prabhupada gave many first initiations or Hari Nama initiations by mail without first personally and physically examining the prospective disciple. He had his temple presidents and senior devotees do the training and actual recommendations on His behalf.

 

The sastra [Hari Bhakti Vilasa] states that the prospective disciple should physically live with the guru for one year and the guru should carefully examine the disciple for one year before initiations. The real purpose is to introduce daiva-varna-asrama as explained by Srila Prabhupada.

 

“But as far as we are concerned, we are trying to establish daiva-varna-asrama, as it is instructed by the Goswamis, by Hari-Bhakti-Vilasa, by our spiritual master. May not be very perfect, but we are trying our best to introduce this daiva-varna-asrama."(20)

 

"Therefore, the rules and regulations are that nobody should blindly accept any disciple. They must behave, one another, at least for one year, so that the prospective disciple can also understand, "whether I can accept this person as my guru," and the prospective guru also can understand," whether this person can become my disciple.' This is the instruction by Sanatana Goswami in his Hari-Bhakti-Vilasa." (21)

 

It is well know that Srila Prabhupada conducted a large number of initiations by proxies or representatives, who would often recruit the new candidate, train him, teach him the basic aspects of Krsna Consciousness on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. After the required period of training, the new devotee would be recommended to be formally initiated as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. This practice of proxy representation was not widely practiced before Srila Prabhupada, if at all. “so on your carefully considered recommendation, I am accepting these girls and boys as my initiated disciples and their names are as follows... They may send their beads for chanting along with a copy of this letter to Kirtanananda Maharaja. Now you instruct them carefully that they must chant 16 rounds daily without and always follow the regulative principles as well as engage in daily duties of temple attendance, classes and street sankirtana. The word initiation means "to begin" not that when he is initiated a disciple becomes slack, rather upon initiation he begins spiritual life in earnest" (22)

 

"Regarding the initiations, I am pleased to accept on your recommendation the following devotees as my disciples" (23)

 

"Regarding the initiations upon your recommendation I am accepting the devotees." (24)

 

(4) In many instances, Srila Prabhupada gave second initiation or Brahminical-diksa by tape recording without physically, personally, giving the mantra to the disciple.

 

When giving gayatri mantra and other sampradaya mantras, it is understood from the sastra that the guru must personally whisper the sacred mantra in the ear of the initiate. This is not only the tradition, but the actual process given in the sacred sastras. The use of a tape recording to convey mantra would constitute a departure from the standard traditional scriptural injunction, yet Srila Prabhupada explains:

 

"Sriman Viraraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja Sampradaya has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaishnavas" (25)

 

"Regarding second initiation, enclosed is one sacred thread chanted on by me, and the gayatri mantra. This should be instructed to Maha Muni in private, have him hear a tape recording of the mantra in the right ear. Hold a fire yajna for the first initiates." (26)

 

Srila Prabhupada letter to Makhanlal dasa June 22, 1973

 

“I hereby accept on your recommendation, Hasyakari Prabhu and his wife Nari devi dasi as my second initiated disciples. Enclosed find one thread duly chanted on by me and two Gayatri mantra sheets. You may take instruction from Rupanuga Maharaja on the proper performance of a yajna and the mantra may be heard through the right ear from the cassette tape recording."(27)

 

4) In one instance Srila Prabhupada told the wife of a devotee to chant the gayatri mantra in her husband's ear.

 

“I am enclosing herewith your sacred thread, duly chanted on by me. Gayatri Mantra is as follows... Ask your wife to chant this mantra and you hear it and if possible hold a fire ceremony as you have seen during your marriage and get this sacred thread on your body, Saradiya or any twice initiated devotee may perform the ceremony " (28)

 

There are three significant points in this connection.

 

1) Srila Prabhupada authorized the mantra to be chanted by the wife of the soon to be Brahmana.

2) Srila Prabhupada authorized the wife of the soon to be Brahmana to perform the fire sacrifice.

3) Srila Prabhupada authorized the prospective Brahmana devotee to receive his gayatri initiation by mall.

 

5) Srila Prabhupada had deputies chant on the disciple's beads and doing the fire sacrifice or the initiation ceremony without Srila Prabhupada personally chanting on the beads. He did not chant personally on every disciple's beads.

 

“Regarding the initiations, upon your recommendations I have accepted the following as my disciples and their names are...the sacred threads and mantra sheets are enclosed. Now hold a fire sacrifice, and the brahmanas may hear the gayatri mantra through the right ear from my recording tape. you are authorized to chant on the beads." (29)

 

"You may chant on the beads of the first initiates, and they must chant at least 16 rounds daily, that will keep them strong." (30)

 

6) Srila Prabhupada initiated mlecchas and yavanas, a rarity which had only been done a few times by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. He did it on a large scale.

 

"Kirata, Huna, Andhra, Pulkasa, Pulinda, Pulkasa, Abhira, Sumbha, Yavana, members of the khasa race and even others who are addicted to sinful acts can be purified by taking shelter of the devotees of the Lord, due to His being the supreme power. I beg to offer my respectful obeisances unto Him" (31)

 

“The principle that only Indians and Hindus should be brought into the Vaishnava cult is mistaken idea. There should be propaganda to bring everyone to the Vaishnava cult. The Krsna Consciousness movement is meant for that purpose. There is no bar in propagating the Krsna Consciousness movement even among people, who are born in candala, mleccha or yavana families. Even in India this point has been enunciated by Srila Sanatana Goswami in His books Hari-Bhakti-Vilasa, which is smrti and is the authorized Vedic guide for Vaishnavas" (32)

 

7) Srila Prabhupada gave Brahminical initiations to unmarried women on a large scale.

 

Indian man. Srila Prabhupada, since there is no distinction between "man" and "woman" these are both designations - is it possible for a woman to become a Brahmana?

Brahmananda: Is it possible for a woman to become a Brahmana.

Srila Prabhupada: He is...Woman is a Brahmana's wife. Then she is automatically a Brahmana.

Indian man: suppose she doesn't want to get married for the rest of her life, just wants to serve the Lord.

Srila Prabhupada: so in his spiritual position everyone is a Brahmana.

Brahmananda: But you give brahminical initiation to unmarried women.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes but on the spiritual platform she is a Brahmana. On the spiritual platform, there is no such distinction. (33)

 

Rigid legalistic adherence to Vedic rituals is religiosity merely and religiosity is simply for the personal distinction and material advancement of the religionist.

[Kulapavana]

 

You were running two arguments simultaneously.

1 That Prabhupada always did it, therefore it is necessary.

2 That Hari-bhakti-vilasa speaks of initiation and therefore formal diksa is necessary.

 

Answers (one more time)

1. is not ought

2. begs the question of what initiation means.

 

Now you're talking about a specific Gayatri and I was talking about the MahaMantra.

Try to stay with me.

 

Look at the title of the thread: it is about DIKSA. Diksa means getting a Vaishnava Gayatri mantra, not Maha-mantra. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta introduced the formal hari-nama initiation with maha-mantra for the first time in GV tradition. That is NOT diksa. diksa is when you receive the smapradaya Gayatri mantra.

 

Haribhakti Vilasa (1.55) says gRhIta-viSNu-dIkSAko viSNu-pUjA-paro naraH vaiSNavo’bhihito’bhijnair itaro’smAd avaiSNavaH - it is the diksa mantra that is spoken of in this verse, a Gayatri mantra.

[cbrahma]

 

Look at the title of the thread: it is about DIKSA. Diksa means getting a Vaishnava Gayatri mantra, not Maha-mantra. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta introduced the formal hari-nama initiation with maha-mantra for the first time in GV tradition. That is NOT diksa. diksa is when you receive the smapradaya Gayatri mantra.

 

Haribhakti Vilasa (1.55) says gRhIta-viSNu-dIkSAko viSNu-pUjA-paro naraH vaiSNavo’bhihito’bhijnair itaro’smAd avaiSNavaH - it is the diksa mantra that is spoken of in this verse, a Gayatri mantra.

This thread began with a definition of diska with which you differed. So again you beg the question. I was talking about the Mahamantra, because you are quoting 'tradition' that mantras have to be given by diksa to be effective and quite frankly, if the Mahamantra is not part of the equation I have no interest in participating in religious Hinduism.

[Beggar]

 

Rigid legalistic adherence to Vedic rituals is religiosity merely and religiosity is simply for the personal distinction and material advancement of the religionist.

 

When you can't figure out a good defense for a meaningless argument - go on the attack. The above argument by cbrahma makes sense in a general way but not in the context of what's being discussed. It is just a smokescreen. When you don't know what to say just accuse those who don't agree with you as being rigid and legalistic adherants to Vedic rituals, as if this is what Kulapavana is proposing, because he is not. In cbrahma's view those who receive the gayatri mantras in the right ear from a qualified guru and the sacred thread are Vedic religionists. Of course then there is the fire sacrifice and this whole thing is a system that Srila Prabhupada passed on from his guru with some slight adjustments. But never mind that, just sling accusations which in total ignorance ultimately are offenses to Srila Prabhupada and the entire guru varga. And then when your done, show us again how you are the most loyal follower of Srila Prabhupada.

[suchandra]

 

so every time you read a book written by a different Vaishnava you get a diksa from him???

 

the divya-jnana is the diksa MANTRA, and it is the mantra which destroys sin.

Depends. If you read a book written by a different Vaishnava like a puffed up rascal then no, probably as you say, nothing will happen when reading a book by "a different Vaishnava". However, a rare soul, reading a book by "a different Vaishnava" in submissive and humble mood will surely find out that this "book written by a different Vaishnava", has changed his life. Some kind of change for what many ISKCONITES obviously seem to still be waiting for.

 

"Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja prays that all envious persons may undergo a change of heart and think of the welfare of others. If the Krishna consciousness movement spreads all over the world, and if by the grace of Krishna everyone accepts it, the thinking of envious people will change. Everyone will think of the welfare of others. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja prays, śivaṁ mitho dhiyā. In material activities, everyone is envious of others, but in Krishna consciousness, no one is envious of anyone else; everyone thinks of the welfare of others. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja prays that everyone’s mind may become gentle by being fixed at the lotus feet of Krishna (bhajatād adhokṣaje). As indicated elsewhere in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ) and as advised by Lord Krishna in Bhagavad-gītā (18.65), man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, one should constantly think of the lotus feet of Lord Krishna. Then one’s mind will certainly be cleansed (ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]). Materialists always think of sense gratification, but Prahlāda Mahārāja prays that the Lord’s mercy will change their minds and they will stop thinking of sense gratification. If they think of Krishna always, everything will be all right.

SB 5.18.10"

[Kulapavana]

 

This thread began with a definition of diska with which you differed. So again you beg the question. I was talking about the Mahamantra, because you are quoting 'tradition' that mantras have to be given by diksa to be effective and quite frankly, if the Mahamantra is not part of the equation I have no interest in participating in religious Hinduism.

 

In a typical Iskconite fashion you make a mish-mash of terms, concepts, and assumptions and then you expect other people to adjust to this confused mess.

 

Beat it into your head: Maha-mantra has no connection to diksa in any of the Vaishnava traditions. Diksa mantras are the Gayatri mantras.

 

Without diksa you are essentially an aspiring Vaishnava, and even with diksa you are not automatically a Vaishnava - it is not cheap, but also diksa is not some empty ritual that Prabhupada followed to appease close-minded ritualists. It is a VERY important part of developing Krsna consciousness.

[cbrahma]

 

In a typical Iskconite fashion you make a mish-mash of terms, concepts, and assumptions and then you expect other people to adjust to this confused mess.

 

Beat it into your head: Maha-mantra has no connection to diksa in any of the Vaishnava traditions. Diksa mantras are the Gayatri mantras.

 

Without diksa you are essentially an aspiring Vaishnava, and even with diksa you are not automatically a Vaishnava - it is not cheap, but also diksa is not some empty ritual that Prabhupada followed to appease close-minded ritualists. It is a VERY important part of developing Krsna consciousness.

 

I don't need to beat anything into my head since I am quite capable of processing logically, which is how I have navigated through your confused arguments. It is painfully obvious that the Mahamantra has nothing to do with diksa as you describe it, yet on the general principle that you have cited that mantras are ineffective without diksa, it is a contradiction.

It's not my principle but one you laid down on behalf of all Vaisnavas.

I have nothing to do with ISKCON or I would agree with the "physically present diksa guru" party line. Ironically it is what the Gaudiya Math gurus have in common with ISKCON not suprisingly because they helped architect the guru mess.

What is fascinating about your religionist stance, is that chanting the names of Krsna has nothing to do with being a Vaisnava, since it has nothing to do with diksa (see your comment I quoted above). That by the way is the logical conclusion of your inconsistent diatribe.

Religionist rationalizations are soooo funny. ROFL

[Beggar]

Someone should quote this since cbrahma is blocking my posts.

 

September 14, 1969:

Tittenhurst Park Estate

London. England

Srila Prabhupada: ...Evam parampara-praptam: In this way, by disciplic succession, the knowledge is coming down. Sa kaleneha mahata yogo nastah parantapa: But in the course of time the succession was broken. Therefore, Krsna says, I am speaking it to you again. So a mantra should be received from the disciplic succession. The Vedic injunction is sampradaya-vihina ye mantras te nisphala matah. If your mantra does not come through the disciplic succession, it will not be effective. Mantras te nisphala. Nisphala means that it will not produce the desired result. So the mantra must be received through the proper channel, or it will not act. A mantra cannot be manufactured. It must come from the original Supreme Absolute, coming down through the channel of disciplic succession. It has to be received in that way, and only then will it act. According to our Krsna consciousness philosophy, the mantra is coming down through four channels of disciplic succession: one through Lord siva, one through the goddess Laksmi, one through Lord Brahma, and one through the four Kumaras. The same thing comes down through different channels. These are called the four sampradayas, or disciplic successions. So, one has to take his mantra from one of these four sampradayas; then only is that mantra active. If we receive the mantra in that way, it will be effective. And if one does not receive his mantra through one of these sampradaya channels, then it will not act; it will not give fruit.

 

Yoko Ono: If the mantra itself has such power, does it matter where you receive it, where you take it?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, it does matter. For instance, milk is nutritious. That's a fact; everyone knows. But if milk is touched by the lips of a serpent, it is no longer nutritious. It becomes poisonous.

Yoko Ono: Well, milk is material.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, it is material. But since you are trying to understand spiritual topics through your material senses, we have to give material examples.

Yoko Ono: Well, no, I don't think you have to give me the material sense. I mean, the mantra is not material. It should be something spiritual; therefore, I don't think anybody should be able to spoil it. I wonder if anybody can actually spoil something that isn't material.

Srila Prabhupada: But if you don't receive the mantra through the proper channel, it may not really be spiritual.

John Lennon: How would you know, anyway? How are you able to tell? I mean, for any of your disciples or us or anybody else who goes to any spiritual master how are we to tell if he's for real or not?

Srila Prabhupada: You shouldn't go to just any spiritual master.

John Lennon: Yes, we should go to a true master. But how are we to tell one from the other?

Srila Prabhupada: It is not that you can go to just any spiritual master. He must be a member of a recognized sampradaya, a particular line of disciplic succession.

John Lennon: But what if one of these masters who's not in the line says exactly the same thing as one who is? What if he says his mantra iscoming from the Vedas and he seems to speak with as much authority as you? He could probably be right. It's confusing like having too many fruits on a plate.

Srila Prabhupada: If the mantra is actually coming through a bona fide disciplic succession, then it will have potency.

John Lennon: But the Hare Krsna mantra is the best one?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

[suchandra]

 

Ironically it is what the Gaudiya Math gurus have in common with ISKCON not suprisingly because they helped architect the guru mess.

 

 

Could be that here lies the answer why there're hardly anymore Westerners accepting this kind of initiation system. As soon an initiation system is pure, bonafide and efficient, people line up to receive their ticket for returning back home to the eternal kingdom of God.

ISKCON's answer to the "nobody is joining anymore" debacle is, only rare souls after many births will surrender.

This however stands there like a duck in a thunder with what Lord Caitanya Himself is stating, "My Holy Name will be chanted globally in every town and village".

Time to clear the way for Lord Caitanya Mahaprabh's prediction!

[Beggar]

 

I have nothing to do with ISKCON or I would agree with the "physically present diksa guru" party line. Ironically it is what the Gaudiya Math gurus have in common with ISKCON not suprisingly because they helped architect the guru mess.

 

 

Blame, blame. Hate, hate. Blame the Gaudiya Math that from your angle of vision, that not all gurus are saksad hari or blame the concept of the requirement of physically present guru.

 

Then there's Suchandra's statement implying that a system of taking initiation from a bona fide physically present guru is requirement that's holding back Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan Mission,

 

Time to clear the way for Lord Caitanya Mahaprabh's prediction!

 

As Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur said, "religion means proper adjustment." Of course if cbrahma read this quote he would flip. Maybe he would ever accuse Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur of being a mundane religionist. These guys cannot adjust the idea of receiving Krsna nama from the lips of a pure devotee and the fact that the sastra states that the Nama is so powerful that diksa may not be required. Who can but a pure devotee. I can't, but at least we should not blame, blame, hate, hate. This was not Srila Prabhupada's program, only a very confused person would go in that direction.

[Kulapavana]

 

It is painfully obvious that the Mahamantra has nothing to do with diksa as you describe it, yet on the general principle that you have cited that mantras are ineffective without diksa, it is a contradiction.

 

 

I am describing diksa as it is known among all Vaishnava sampradayas.

 

The statement that 'mantra is ineffective without diksa' is a shastric statement. It means that mantra MUST BE RECEIVED through proper diksa, and not simply taken from a book or heard from an unauthorized source, and the mantra here refers to the Gayatri mantra.

[cbrahma]

 

I am describing diksa as it is known among all Vaishnava sampradayas.

 

The statement that 'mantra is ineffective without diksa' is a shastric statement. It means that mantra MUST BE RECEIVED through proper diksa, and not simply taken from a book or heard from an unauthorized source, and the mantra here refers to the Gayatri mantra.

You speak so ignorantly without proper evidence on the behalf of tradition and so much against what Prabhupada and his spiritual master have said and accomplished that it only re-affirms the uselessness of your claims to Indian Vaisnavism by some prissy pietism that has obviously withered on the vine and become impotent to engage others in the Yuga-dharma but rather to celebrate its exclusivity and esoteric isolation.

Who needs it.

[bija]

Kulupavana, didn't Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada offer asraya/shelter initiation into the maha-mantra, and then later give gayatri-mantra diksha when the disciple was ready.

 

As far as I understand Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada was one of the first to give actual (formalized) diksha into the maha-mantra in our line.

 

cbrahma and Kula my spiritual master says both processes (naam siksha and naam diksha) are valid in our line as per Hari Naam Cintamani by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

 

 

cbrahma we need to look at Sri Caitanya. He received mantra diksha from his Guru and exhibited bliss afterward. Sri Caitanya's Guru gave him siksha into Hari-Naam. He also instructed Sri Caitanya to broadcast this Naam.

[Kulapavana]

 

Kulupavana, didn't Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada offer asraya/shelter initiation into the maha-mantra, and then later give gayatri-mantra diksha when the disciple was ready.

 

As far as I understand Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada was one of the first to give actual (formalized) diksha into the maha-mantra in our line.

 

 

You are correct. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta found the people so fallen that he introduced an initiation into the Maha-mantra (hari nama) as the first step on the road to becoming a Vaishnava, by giving people japa beads, kanthi mala, and a spiritual name. By some accounts he gave hari nama initiation to about 20,000 people, usually requesting them to chant 4 rounds of japa daily. He also gave diksa to a very selected group of his disciples, giving them the GV Gayatri mantras and requesting them to chant 64 rounds.

 

Srila Prabhupada never called the first initiation 'diksa' and his disciples should respect that. He placed a lot of emphasis on the first initiation, and introduced the fire yajna in conjunction with that ceremony. He gave the women the same Gayatri mantras as he gave men, which was different than the GM standard introduced by BST.

 

These are all good systems, but one should not confuse the hari nama initiation with diksa, or claim that you can get a diksa from a book. That is not what Prabhupada did or said.

[theist]

I have to agree with the main thrust of cbrahma's arguement.

 

 

 

Madhya 15.105 - Upon hearing this, Satyaraja said, “How can I recognize a Vaishnava? Please let me know what a Vaishnava is. What are his common symptoms?”

 

Madhya 15.106 - Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, “Whoever chants the holy name of Krishna just once is worshipable and is the topmost human being.

 

Madhya 15.107 - “Simply by chanting the holy name of Krishna once, a person is relieved from all the reactions of a sinful life. One can complete the nine processes of devotional service simply by chanting the holy name.

Madhya 15.108 - “One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

Madhya 15.109 - “By chanting the holy name of the Lord, one dissolves his entanglement in material activities. After this, one becomes very much attracted to Krishna, and thus dormant love for Krishna is awakened.

Madhya 15.110 - “‘The holy name of Lord Krishna is an attractive feature for many saintly, liberal people. It is the annihilator of all sinful reactions and is so powerful that, save for the dumb who cannot chant it, it is readily available to everyone, including the lowest type of man, the candala. The holy name of Krishna is the controller of the opulence of liberation, and it is identical with Krishna. When a person simply chants the holy name with his tongue, immediate effects are produced. Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or the purascarya regulative principles generally observed before initiation. The holy name does not wait for any of these activities. It is self- sufficient.’”

 

Madhya 15.111 - Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu then finally advised, “One who is chanting the Hare Krishna mantra is understood to be a Vaishnava; therefore you should offer all respects to him.”

 

[theist]

Diksa as process

 

TRANSLATION CC Madhya 15.108

“One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

 

PURPORT

Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksha in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

divyam jnanam yato dadyat kuryat papasya sankshayam

tasmat diksheti sa prokta desikais tattva-kovidaih

 

“Diksha is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksha.”

[bija]

Thank you Kula, it is really very interesting to see empowered acaryas like Sri Srila Prabhupada and Srila Prabhupada introduce process at their discretion. Srila Prabhupada reflects his own gurus mood in so many ways, a sincere practicioner can surely see these things.

 

If we can find harmony in all this with our own sadhana and bhajan, we are fortunate. And with such balance our movement becomes dynamic and free flowing.

 

I agree Theist, Naam is free to act, as it is non-different from Nami.

 

In regards to why mantra diksha is implemented with such high regard in our lineage I cannot comment. Maybe if we have received mantra diksha, and have meditated on these gayatris for some years, along with deep Naam bhajan...we may be able to comment from realization. I am not qualified yet:pray:.

 

The acaryas performed this dual path of pancaratrika and bhagavata. Surely they followed these processes because of the benefits for all of us who would follow.

[Beggar]

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 15.110

 

 

 

ākṛṣṭiḥ kṛta-cetasāḿ su-manasām uccāṭanaḿ cāḿhasām

ācaṇḍālam amūka-loka-sulabho vaśyaś ca mukti-śriyaḥ

no dīkṣāḿ na ca sat-kriyāḿ na ca puraścaryāḿ manāg īkṣate

mantro 'yaḿ rasanā-spṛg eva phalati śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmātmakaḥ

 

 

SYNONYMS

ākṛṣṭiḥ — attraction; kṛta-cetasām — of saintly persons; su-manasām — of the most liberal-minded; uccāṭanam — annihilator; ca — also; aḿhasām — of sinful reactions; ā-caṇḍālam — even to the caṇḍālas; amūka — except the dumb; loka-su-labhaḥ — very easy to achieve for all persons; vaśyaḥ — full controller; ca — and; mukti-śriyaḥ — of the opulence of liberation; na u — not; dīkṣām — initiation; na — not; ca — also; sat-kriyām — pious activities; na — not; ca — also; puraścaryām — regulative principles before initiation; manāk — slightly; īkṣate — depends upon; mantraḥ — mantra; ayam — this; rasanā — tongue; spṛk — touching; eva — simply; phalati — is fruitful; śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāma-ātmakaḥ — consisting of the holy name of Lord Kṛṣṇa.

TRANSLATION

 

"'The holy name of Lord Kṛṣṇa is an attractive feature for many saintly, liberal people. It is the annihilator of all sinful reactions and is so powerful that, save for the dumb who cannot chant it, it is readily available to everyone, including the lowest type of man, the caṇḍāla. The holy name of Kṛṣṇa is the controller of the opulence of liberation, and it is identical with Kṛṣṇa. When a person simply chants the holy name with his tongue, immediate effects are produced. Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or the puraścaryā regulative principles generally observed before initiation. The holy name does not wait for any of these activities. It is self-sufficient.'"

PURPORT

This verse is found in the Padyāvalī (29), an anthology of verses compiled by Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī.

 

 

 

What a beautiful verse. Of course it was written by Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī.

If Krsna nama wants to merge someone in ecstacy, He can do what ever He wants. This is an example of krpa siddha. But the formal system of hare nama initiation and diksa goes on. The reason is the example given by Srila Prabhupada that most persons will have to go to four years of college to get a degree. Occasionally a person will receive an honorary degree, but we can't count on it and that is why we must follow the process given by the acaryas.

[bija]

 

This is an example of krpa siddha. by beggar

The reservoir of rati can be divided into two:

 

 

(taken from sri bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu chart)

 

1/sadhaka (bhava bhaktas)

2/siddha (prema bhaktas)

 

siddha can further be divided into two:

 

nitya siddha (eternally perfect)

 

and

 

samprapti siddha (those who attained perfection)

 

samprapti siddha can further be divided into two:

 

1/sadhana siddha (attained perfection through sadhana)

 

2/ kripa siddha (attained perfection through mercy)

[suchandra]

double post

[suchandra]

 

Diksa as process

 

TRANSLATION CC Madhya 15.108

“One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

 

PURPORT

Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksha in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

divyam jnanam yato dadyat kuryat papasya sankshayam

tasmat diksheti sa prokta desikais tattva-kovidaih

 

“Diksha is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksha.”

Thanks Theist, nice quotes! It should be always a great feeling of joy to see when people start to chant Hare Krsna. Now they critizise HH Hridayananda Goswami because he wears shoes, while giving diksa to new disciples.

 

 

However, when a devotee has brought so many souls to the state of daily chanting the Holy Name, why not just overlook such irregularieties?

http://www.acharyadeva.com/cgi-bin/disciples_en.cgi

[AncientMariner]

 

You speak so ignorantly without proper evidence on the behalf of tradition and so much against what Prabhupada and his spiritual master have said and accomplished that it only re-affirms the uselessness of your claims to Indian Vaisnavism by some prissy pietism that has obviously withered on the vine and become impotent to engage others in the Yuga-dharma but rather to celebrate its exclusivity and esoteric isolation.

Who needs it.

 

 

I just disregard the prissy pietism aspects of Krishna Consciousness and take the simple stuff like what theist posted. I find the simple stuff to be very beautiful and worthwhile but the complicated ritualism just is not my cup of tea but if it has some use for people who am I to critisize. That is why I find the story of Jada Bharata so entertaining because his father was trying to teach him to become the perfect brahmana and a perfect expert in the Vedas and Jada Bharata acted like a deaf dumb idiotic madman so his father would leave him alone so he could continue to think about Krishna and chant the Hare Krishna mantra.

[theist]

 

TRANSLATION CC Madhya 15.108

“One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

 

 

I do not see this as a special or unusual case at all. I see it as the power of the Holy Name as it acts in every case.

 

It is not that in the vast majority of cases the Holy Name does depend on the purifing process leading up to mantra initiation and then after mantra initiation the Holy Name gains potency. No I don't accept that even remotely.

 

The other processes of sadhana only serve to help keep one associated with the holy name otherwise the nine processes of devotional service are all fulfilled simply by chanting the holy name.

 

 

Madhya 15.107 - “Simply by chanting the holy name of Krishna once, a person is relieved from all the reactions of a sinful life. One can complete the nine processes of devotional service simply by chanting the holy name.

 

The holy name is self-sufficent.

[AncientMariner]

 

I do not see this as a special or unusual case at all. I see it as the power of the Holy Name as it acts in every case.

 

It is not that in the vast majority of cases the Holy Name does depend on the purifing process leading up to mantra initiation and then after mantra initiation the Holy Name gains potency. No I don't accept that even remotely.

 

The other processes of sadhana only serve to help keep one associated with the holy name otherwise the nine processes of devotional service are all fulfilled simply by chanting the holy name.

 

 

 

The holy name is self-sufficent.

 

 

Yeah, the way I look at it if the holy name is not self-sufficient there was no point to the incarnation of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Him showing special mercy to the fallen souls of the Kali-yuga. If it is not self-sufficient then Caitanya Mahaprabhu didn't really have any special mercy and might as well just have been a mundane religionist.