Definition Of Diksha

[♣♣♣]

 

Real diksa is not necessarily formal according to Prabhupada. But then you know better.

 

[cbrahma]

 

We Prabupada disciples are all so grateful you finally came along to set us straight.

 

 

Since you don't know how to make the distinction,

you should speak for yourself - that is difficult enough.

[♣♣♣]

Stop pretending you know what your talking about here, your anger is evident more than your unjustified arrogance. You are so far off base it is silly and I cannot believe I am having a converstion with such a person as you, this is just nuts.

 

You want to believe this stuff so you grasp at as many things possible to support it and twist them and insult anyone who disagrees,

 

But little do you know you insult Prabupad himself in doing so and the entire Gaudiya sampradaya.

 

I'm done with you silly boy

[cbrahma]

 

Stop pretending you know what your talking about here' date=' your anger is evident more than your unjustified arrogance. You are so far off base it is silly and I cannot believe I am having a converstion with such a person as you, this is just nuts.[/quote']

Where do you think I got the quotes from. I'm not clinging cheaply to a ritual. The quotes also came from Prabhupada disciples who transmitted them faithfully. You are a perfect illustration on how formal diksa doesn't necessarily imply true discipleship. I know several Prabhupada disciples who agree with me because they know what they are talking about. No pretense necessary.

[suchandra]

 

No twisting required. You dont' know what I'm talking about obviously. I have quoted Prabhupada several times on this subject but for your much needed edification I will do so again.

 

 

 

You will have to get over your religious elitism, I'm afraid, since you obviously don't even understand what the formal ritual means.

Good points by Cbrahma, let people first of all start to chant. Who is actually chanting Hare Krsna nowadays? Guess there're much more people praying the rosary than Vaishnavas chanting Hare Krsna. Even so many ex-Iskconites, the first thing they skip is chanting the maha-mantra. Three Prabhupada disciples phoning me up recently say they stopped chanting. I said, but better give up anything else, why the chanting? So it is very rare that people are sincerely chanting, you have to get up early, make this and that adjustment, etc. etc.

Did Lord Caitanya perform initiation ceremonies? I heard He didn't.

Any suggestions? So far the tradition was that Vaishnavas never before would install institutions. Institutionalized Vaishnavism was introduced by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja. From whom people took initiation throughout the history of India? So far it seems people took initiation from very special outstanding effulgent Vaishnavas - Vaishnavas who performed such wonderful saintly activities, had such a transcendental charism that they became known for what they were doing and created such a strong faith that people had no doubt whatsoever to take initiation from such an exhalted Vaishnava acarya. Not that people were told you have to take initiation from such and such and this person was just like an appointed officer. In India this is unthinkable.

[♣♣♣]

"Did Lord Caitanya perform initiation ceremonies? I heard He didn't"

 

No but his direct associates did and HE himself took formal diksha from Isvara Puri and BTW he DID teach by example.

 

Krishna himself took diksha too ya know.

[cbrahma]

 

"Did Lord Caitanya perform initiation ceremonies? I heard He didn't"

 

No but his direct associates did and HE himself took formal diksha from Isvara Puri and BTW he DID teach by example.

 

Krishna himself took diksha too ya know.

 

Some took initiation, but not all.

Some not all means not necessary .

[Kulapavana]

 

Thing is George never got close to any kind of nishta really, he was into many different things spititually, sometimes into Krishna other times into SRF and again TM and other things. He was like a good life member. Iskcon Devotees idealize him as some special devotee (almost demi-god) when in fact he was a celebrity who gave some support and brought attention to the devotees with his celebrity status. However, George was a bit naive about certain aspects of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Don't get me wrong, he was a very spiritual person, I loved him immensely, it was his songs and devotion that brought me to Gaudiya vaishnavism.

 

Perhaps because he never accepted proper diksha his bhajan never crystalized to the point of nistha?

 

♣♣♣

 

Precisely! It even requires firm faith to take a proper diksa. There is no doubt that without proper diksa our bhajana never gets real deep.

 

Why would one not want to take a proper Vaishnava diksa??? Only whimsical people think like that.

[AncientMariner]

 

Precisely! It even requires firm faith to take a proper diksa. There is no doubt that without proper diksa our bhajana never gets real deep.

 

Why would one not want to take a proper Vaishnava diksa??? Only whimsical people think like that.

 

 

I think it might have something to do with the personality cult surrounding gurus and seeming pressure to take initiation from this or that guru when ultimately it seems that should be a personal decision and not be influenced by peer pressure etc. Just a guess on my part, don't know for sure.

[cbrahma]

 

Precisely! It even requires firm faith to take a proper diksa. There is no doubt that without proper diksa our bhajana never gets real deep.

 

Why would one not want to take a proper Vaishnava diksa??? Only whimsical people think like that.

 

Nonsense. George was following Prabhupada's instructions not to move into the ashrama and follow the usual process.

[AncientMariner]

I thought I read somewhere that George wasn't that much in Krishna Consciousness when he died or he was into Siva or something like that. Can't remember exactly. So on that front Mr. Spades or Clubs or whatever suit he is may have some merit to his statement but I don't know for sure, how can anyone know what George was thinking when he died.

[cbrahma]

 

I think it might have something to do with the personality cult surrounding gurus and seeming pressure to take initiation from this or that guru when ultimately it seems that should be a personal decision and not be influenced by peer pressure etc. Just a guess on my part, don't know for sure.

Kulapavana is interpreting according to his religionist bias. George appealed to Prabhupada about moving into the ashrama and following the usual process and Prabhupada told him to continue in the way he was.

 

 

They had a wonderful conversation, where at one point George asked him if he should move into the temple and shave his head. I believe he would have if Prabhupad had said yes. But Prabhupad said emphatically "No! You have a great gift for the world in your music. Just continue your music and Krishna will be greatly pleased and He will bless you." Then he said "I will give you some ideas for your songs" and he got out Srila Bhaktivinode's Songbook and went over a number of the songs, reciting the translations for George.

[cbrahma]

 

I thought I read somewhere that George wasn't that much in Krishna Consciousness when he died or he was into Siva or something like that. Can't remember exactly. So on that front Mr. Spades or Clubs or whatever suit he is may have some merit to his statement but I don't know for sure, how can anyone know what George was thinking when he died.

 

His death on Thursday was a quiet act. Two of his closest friends and fellow Krishna followers chanted quietly until the end. His friend and bodyguard Gavin De Becker had offered his Beverly Hills home as a sanctuary, and it was there that he died on Thursday at 1.30pm local time.

 

 

 

In accordance with his wishes, 20 minutes after his death he was carried away in a simple cardboard coffin in the back of a white van and taken for a simple $500 ((pounds) 350) funeral service held at the Hollywood Forever Cemetery and Crematorium in the shadow of the Hollywood sign.

 

After the cremation Olivia and son Dhani boarded a private jet, presumably to India to scatter his ashes on a holy river as Krishna teachings demand.

<p>>

Yesterday it emerged that Harrison had sombrely made preparations some weeks before his death to ensure his family's privacy and that his spiritual needs were met. Last week a final meeting was arranged between Harrison, Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr. Afterwards Harrison confessed that he had idolised McCartney throughout his entire career.

<p>

Harrison also spent time last week reconciling with his 70-year- old estranged sister Louise. He then arranged for the majority of his (pounds) 150million fortune to be passed over to his wife Olivia. Keen to avoid the Beatle mania that followed him throughout his life, Harrison decided that his death would be private.

 

Making a trip to America some months ago he realised he would never return to Liverpool again. Kripa Moya Das, of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, said: "George wanted to keep his death a private matter, just like his life."

 

Harrisons friends who chanted until his death, Shyamusundar Das and Mukunda Goswami, said in a joint statement: "During his last days, Krishna devotees were by his side and he left his body to the sounds of the Hare Krishna mantra."

 

 

[AncientMariner]

That is cool. Sounds like George was chanting right up to the end.

[mahak]

It doesnt matter what we think when we die, most of us will be thinking, "Oh s---". What matters is what krsna is thinking when we die. George Harrison was very pleasing to Srila Prabhupada. All the speculation about his smoking, his drug use, his SRF and TM leanings, none of this has anything to do with anything. Krsna was thinking of george harrison as he passed away.

 

Shastra confirms my statement here. Krsna thwarted Yama in the jurisdictional question in the ajamila matter. Yama confirms that George is not in his jurisdiction, because he was initiated by Chaitagurudeva.

 

haribol, ys, mahak

[AncientMariner]

 

It doesnt matter what we think when we die, most of us will be thinking, "Oh s---". What matters is what krsna is thinking when we die. George Harrison was very pleasing to Srila Prabhupada. All the speculation about his smoking, his drug use, his SRF and TM leanings, none of this has anything to do with anything. Krsna was thinking of george harrison as he passed away.

 

Shastra confirms my statement here. Krsna thwarted Yama in the jurisdictional question in the ajamila matter. Yama confirms that George is not in his jurisdiction, because he was initiated by Chaitagurudeva.

 

haribol, ys, mahak

 

 

That seems to be a fair point to me based on my limited understanding of Prabhupadas books.

[♣♣♣]

In the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, second vilasa, Sanatana and Gopala Bhatta Gosvamis give a very detailed explanation of the process of diksha. In this description the whole process is summarized by saying that the only necessary and indeed essential act in initiation, is the speaking or giving of the mantra, (not the Hare Krishna mantra which is referred to correctly as Hari nam and not mantra) but 'Klim Krishnaya Govindaya Gopijanavallabhaya Svaha', by the guru into the disciple's ear (Hari-bhakti-vilasa 2.243-6)

[bija]

'I dig love'

 

'ding dong ding dong'

 

George was not exclusive Gaudiya Vaisnava, Ancient Mariner. But he was an exclusive seeker of God's love. I would not dare to speculate how much he loved God.

 

I will say this. If devotees think he was exempt from deep feelings wthin his heart of love because he was not exclusive Gaudiya practicioner - then they just may not understand the wonder of God's love.

 

I am not going to speculate whether he went to Krsna loka!

 

George's music touched so many people including me. Srila Prabhupada knew this. Srila Prabhupada had a huge heart and great wisdom - and knew the total depth of Sri Gaura-Nitaai's mercy - and how far that would reach in George's life, my life, and countless other souls lives.

 

Maybe he was not nistha. But even God can break the rules in Madhurya-kadambini and give someone a taste of bhava before nistha. Even if it is just a small glimpse from association with a great sadhu. Maybe he was nistha - nistha does not mean adhering to a ritualistic day - nistha means an everday spirituality.

 

cbrahma - richness. Richness for me is not ritual. It is not even tradition so much. But richness contains all things that bring us to purity of heart, which in essence is simplicity, which is love. If you can taste that love of Sri Caitanya oneday passed on by his followers you will know what I mean by rich - like a big juicy cake of love mate! I agree with you simplicity is the key! But I must say Gaudiya Vaisnavism's goal and living in that goal and process is definately rich.

[♣♣♣]

 

It doesnt matter what we think when we die, most of us will be thinking, "Oh s---". What matters is what krsna is thinking when we die. George Harrison was very pleasing to Srila Prabhupada. All the speculation about his smoking, his drug use, his SRF and TM leanings, none of this has anything to do with anything. Krsna was thinking of george harrison as he passed away.

 

Shastra confirms my statement here. Krsna thwarted Yama in the jurisdictional question in the ajamila matter. Yama confirms that George is not in his jurisdiction, because he was initiated by Chaitagurudeva.

 

haribol, ys, mahak

 

mahak, George was of course a wonderful devotee and Prabupada loved him very much and I am sure Krishna did as well, however it is not speculation at all that he was into SRF, TM and others types of spirituality, even after he became a devotee. At one point he even considered giving the manor to the SRF people because of how burnt out he had become with all the harassment he got from devotess there.

 

[AncientMariner]

I never could understand why the Beatles were so popular. I thought their lyrics were just plain bad. I did like a lot of John Lennon's songs and I did like George Harrison as he did seem to be very humble and unassuming. I did like the Traveling Wilberrys or whatever their name was that contained Roy Orbison, Tom Petty, George Harrison and some other people, they were really good.

[cbrahma]

 

'I dig love'

 

'ding dong ding dong'

 

George was not exclusive Gaudiya Vaisnava, Ancient Mariner. But he was an exclusive seeker of God's love. I would not dare to speculate how much he loved God.

 

I will say this. If devotees think he was exempt from deep feelings wthin his heart of love because he was not exclusive Gaudiya practicioner - then they just may not understand the wonder of God's love.

 

I am not going to speculate whether he went to Krsna loka!

 

George's music touched so many people including me. Srila Prabhupada knew this. Srila Prabhupada had a huge heart and great wisdom - and knew the total depth of Sri Gaura-Nitaai's mercy - and how far that would reach in George's life, my life, and countless other souls lives.

 

Maybe he was not nistha. But even God can break the rules in Madhurya-kadambini and give someone a taste of bhava before nistha. Even if it is just a small glimpse from association with a great sadhu. Maybe he was nistha - nistha does not mean adhering to a ritualistic day - nistha means an everday spirituality.

 

cbrahma - richness. Richness for me is not ritual. It is not even tradition so much. But richness contains all things that bring us to purity of heart, which in essence is simplicity, which is love. If you can taste that love of Sri Caitanya oneday passed on by his followers you will know what I mean by rich - like a big juicy cake of love mate! I agree with you simplicity is the key! But I must say Gaudiya Vaisnavism's goal and living in that goal and process is definately rich.

George chanted the mahamantra regularly - he considered Prabhupada to be his spritual master. How is this not exclusive Gaudiya V.?

[cbrahma]

 

mahak, George was of course a wonderful devotee and Prabupada loved him very much and I am sure Krishna did as well, however it is not speculation at all that he was into SRF, TM and others types of spirituality, even after he became a devotee. At one point he even considered giving the manor to the SRF people because of how burnt out he had become with all the harassment he got from devotess there.

 

That is not true - The Beatles dropped TM long before George started chanting the Mahamantra. SRF or not he chanted regularly.

[bija]

What I mean cbrahma he was broad in spirituality. Not strictly just Hare krsna.

 

Have you listened to his last album that his son Dhani produced?

 

He was very gracious soul and has left a wonderful charity and legacy behind which his wife runs. He also left some funds for Self Realization Fellowship.

 

At various points in our life we have awakenings and growth spurts spiritually. It seems that George's personal spiritual feelings were not just confinded to the Hare Krsna movement. That's why I dig George. He was intelligent and could see the big picture.

 

I will not post anymore about George. I love him...and his personal internal spiritual life is sacred ground for me.

 

cheers;)

[cbrahma]

 

cbrahma - richness. Richness for me is not ritual. It is not even tradition so much. But richness contains all things that bring us to purity of heart, which in essence is simplicity, which is love. If you can taste that love of Sri Caitanya oneday passed on by his followers you will know what I mean by rich - like a big juicy cake of love mate! I agree with you simplicity is the key! But I must say Gaudiya Vaisnavism's goal and living in that goal and process is definately rich.

 

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OK. I have experienced it with Prabhupada and maybe a couple of his disciples. None of this has to do with religion and traditional ritualism.

In fact it is the transcendant nature of that experience that convinces me how easily it can be faked with external posturing - the formal credentials of diksa for instance.

[bija]

For sure cbrahma. At some point the flow goes internally. Somewhere in our bhajan activities (which begin externally) the flow goes inward. Taste is an inner feeling. And steady attachment is a deeper aspect of that inward experience.

 

If one does not have that inner flow, yep, all the robes and position will not maintain the appearance of advanced sadhu. What is in the heart will eventually bubble to the surface.

 

It is hard to tell what is in the devotees heart sometimes. Bhava may not very very visible. The heart can be grave or soft (according to sri-bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu). The grave heart is compared to a big ocean - and a spiritual emotion will not cause many waves. A soft heart is compared to a pond. Even a small pebble of emotion will be very visible in that pond.

 

The showman's tricks will eventually be exposed. Grossness can not be hidden for ever.

 

In relation to George, who are we to say what spiritual emotions inwardly flowed in his heart. Maybe by some good fortune we may glimpse real anubhava or sattvikabhava in another then we can be certain. But not all devotees are small soft ponds of love. A showman's show will expose itself in good time.