The great historical debate and question, who is ones REAL Guru?

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

The great historical debate and question, who is ones REAL Guru?

 

 

DEVOTEE 2 – “I knew Peter a little bit. Of course he couldn't accept another guru, his faith was already there in Srila Prabhupada.

Like I have said, I accept the diksa ceremony as being necessary for temple altar work. No problem if the guru uses it to draw the disciple closer. Prabhupada after all was trying to create a brahminical class and he instituted formal Deity worship. He brought Vaisnavism in a traditional "Hindu" style.

I am against the way people have come to view the ceremony however. people think they have become Brahmans due to the ceremony when in fact the focus should be on developing the qualities characteristic of a Brahmins that we read about in the Gita. Both can work together but the qualities are indispensable and compared to those qualities the ceremony lacks real importance.

I believe cbrahma feels the same way and it is his style that people react to. That and his anti-GM stance. I believe he will come to soften that in time. Anyway, I don't share his feelings on that front.

DEVOTEE 3. - "The whole perception of my being anti-diksa because I don't capitulate to the religious arrogance of 'I got a fire sacrifice so I'm in' mentality is, alright I'll say it. As far as I'm concerned, that's what GM is. And I refuse to copy those incontrovertible quotes again".

DEVOTEE 2 -"No need. I heard them all long before you ever posted them. Time place circumstance is the way I look at it. As for myself I am quite happy being a lone camper".

DEVOTEE 4 - "I find it both hilarious and sad that all these devotees who deify Prabhupada have such unequivocal criticism towards the men he himself chose as the leaders of his society, and entrusted them with giving diksa to both current and future devotees in Iskcon. Unbelievable!

DEVOTEE 3 -"Ahhh. So, we judge the guru by his disciples. Poor NM and Sridhar Maharaj. Of course, your hidden premise, that Prabhupada intended these men to be gurus on their own behalf, is a lie. BTW, it makes more sense to deify (treat as good as God) a pure devotee, than a formal ritual (formal diksa).

DEVOTEE 4 - "Not really, you just missed my point completely, and on purpose too. Point is that these 11 were not just ordinary disciples. These were first leaders hand picked by Prabhupada, and later the people he himself chose to carry on with initiating new people and be 'initiating gurus' of one sort or another - that part is indisputable. Can you judge the guru by the appointments he makes? It is not quite the same as 'judging gurus by their disciples', is it?

 

DEVOTEE 1 – “No you can’t judge a Guru like that in fact, Prabhupada once said that even if just one pure devotee is reclaimed, then his mission is successful. Anyway, my main question is, how do we find a genuin bonafide Guru, were do we look?”

 

DEVOTEE 6 - "An interesting ISKCON pastime I heard recently in Vrndavana about a hippie in 1966 that used to travel around in Ken Kesey’s psychodelic bus dance group, travelling around America handing out Kool-Aid drink laced with LSD.

Somehow, one of Srila Prabhupada’s original Srimad Bhagavatam’s was in a small library section on the bus and read by such future devotee’s like Mohanananda dasa who was only 14 or 15 years of age at the time.

One young hippie on that bus however, was not satisfied in just reading the book; he was determined to find the author of this wonderful Srimad Bhagavatam and was prepared to travel all around India until he found this amazing Sadhu.

When they reached New York, Kesey and the Pranksters visited Leary in Millbrook, NY, at his psychedelic retreat called "The International Federation for Internal Freedom."; it was founded when Leary was fired from Harvard University for doing research with his students on the hallucinogenic drugs LSD-25 and Psilocybin.

This young hippie had had enough of LSD, realized God can NEVER be found in a pill, and decided to go on a spiritual quest to India in search of the ‘swami’ who wrote the Srimad Bhagavatam.

He then decided to leave the merry pranksters and leave for India; he bought a ticket and was on his way to the Kennedy airport. On the way however, he had sometime to spare and went by Tompkins Square Park to see what the acidhead hippies were up to.

As he went by in the taxi, he saw this big crowd and all the hippies dancing, he was curious and told the taxi driver to stop, then went over, investigated, and found an elderly Sadu leading the chanting of Hare Krishna.

He watched with some curiosity and wondered if the Sadhu he would eventually find in India, who wrote the Srimad Bhagavatam, would be like this Sadhu. Anyway the kirtan stopped and this Sadu began reading from the same book he was reading on ken Kesey’s Bus.

Now this young hippie just was even more determined to seek out the writer of the Srimad Bhagavatam seeing this Sadu also reading it. Eventually the reading stopped and this young hippie went over to the Sadhu and said

‘I am also reading this book and I am now just on my way to the airport to fly out to India, I am determined to look all over India for this Sadhu’.

The elderly gentlemen Sadhu chuckled to himself and said to the young hippie

‘I am the translator of this book the beautiful Srimad Bhagavatam, you do not have to go to India, I am here in New York”

The young hippie was ecstatic and had tears in his eyes. Then Srila Prabhupada, the elderly Sadu said ‘Just see, if you are completely sincere and genuine, then you do not have to find Guru, he will find you”

DEVOTEE 7 - "When you think about it, Srila Prabhupada came to the West because there was a deep longing among the 50s and 60s LOST youth for answers to what in the hell is going on within the material world.

 

Why are we here?

Where did we come from?

Where are we going?

 

I Know I had that desire to find the answers. One evening while listening to George Harrison singing 'My Sweet Lord', I happened to watch Srila Prabhupada arriving at an airport surrounded by loving devotees on TV, I new at that moment that this holy man is my Spiritual Master.

 

The fact is he came to the West because we all were desperately seeking the truth.

SRILA PRABHUPADA - "God is within your heart. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam. God is not far away. If you are sincere, God sends you a spiritual master. Therefore, God is also called caitya-guru, the spiritual master within the heart. God helps from within and from without. Everything is thus described in Bhagavad-gita.

This material body is like a machine, but within the heart is the soul, and with the soul is the Supersoul, Krsna, who gives directions. The Lord says, "You wanted to do this; now here is the chance. Go and do it." If you are sincere, you say, "Now, God, I want You." Then He will give you directions. "Yes, now you come and get Me like this."

This is His kindness. However, if we want something else, that is all right. We can have it. God is very kind. When I want something, He is in my heart directing me and telling me how to have it. So why should He not give directions on how to have a spiritual master?

 

First of all we must again be eager to revive our God consciousness. Then God will give us a spiritual master". Back to Godhead #67, 1974: "An Awareness of What is Best and Most Beautiful

DEVOTEE 8 -"Disciple: Once I remember John Lennon asked you, "How will I know who is the genuine guru?" And you answered, "Just find out the one who is most addicted to Krsna. He is genuine."

SRILA PRABHUPADA - "Yes. The genuine guru is God's representative, and he speaks about God and nothing else. The genuine guru is he who has no interest in materialistic life. He is after God, and God only. That is one of the tests of a genuine guru: brahma-nistham. He is absorbed in the Absolute Truth.

In the Mundaka Upanisad it is stated, srotriyam brahma-nistham: [MU 1.2.12] "The genuine guru is well versed in the scriptures and Vedic knowledge, and he is completely dependent on Brahman." He should know what Brahman [spirit] is and how to become situated in Brahman.

These signs are given in the Vedic literature. As I said before, the real guru is God's representative. He represents the Supreme Lord, just as a viceroy represents a king. The real guru will not manufacture anything.

Everything he says is in accordance with the scriptures and the previous acaryas. He will not give you a mantra and tell you that you will become God in six months. This is not a guru's business.

A guru's business is to canvass everyone to become a devotee of God.

 

That is the sum and substance of a real guru's business. Indeed, he has no other business. He tells whomever he sees, "Please become God conscious." If he canvasses somehow or other on behalf of God and tries to get everyone to become a devotee of God, he is a genuine guru".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prabhupada

 

 

[cbrahma]

Don't get the point of copying all these arguments. They are easily read from their own thread. If you think that together they make some kind of point, then you need to show that.

[Kulapavana]

why does it have to be just one guru? I have several gurus in my life and manage to find a good harmony between them.

[Bishadi]

 

why does it have to be just one guru? I have several gurus in my life and manage to find a good harmony between them.

 

Honesty!

[Sarva gattah]

 

why does it have to be just one guru? I have several gurus in my life and manage to find a good harmony between them.

 

 

 

Good point however, it is advisable to have a stand out instructing living Guru, 'a person' above all others who links you with loving effection, like a son or daughter with their father, to the Parampara.

 

 

 

 

Also you cannot get that advanced 'personalism' just from reading books, in fact, if one is sincere, that sincerity will attract a Spiritual Master to guide one.

 

If we have firm faith that Krsna is in our hearts, then why not believe He will help us climb out of this 'stagnated' mundane 'chewing the chewed vomit of words', over and over and over again in this delusional cyber-space extention of the illusionary material creation we call the internet?

 

[♣♣♣]

 

why does it have to be just one guru? I have several gurus in my life and manage to find a good harmony between them.

 

Exactly, those who try and preach a one and only Guru show a lack of understanding and small mindedness, completely against Gaudiya Siddhanta and the teachings of Srila Prabupada AND the Gosvamis.

 

These are usually people who have never spent time in Braja and seen the mood that is prevalent there among various Vaishnavas.

 

[cbrahma]

 

 

 

Good point however, it is advisable to have a stand out instructing living Guru, 'a person' above all others who links you with loving effection, like a son or daughter with their father, to the Parampara.

 

 

 

 

Also you cannot get that advanced 'personalism' just from reading books, in fact, if one is sincere, that sincerity will attract a Spiritual Master to guide one.

 

 

 

 

 

If we have firm faith that Krsna is in our hearts, then why not believe He will help us climb out of this 'stagnated' mundane 'chewing the chewed vomit of words', over and over and over again in this delusional cyber-space extention of the illusionary material creation we call the internet?

 

 

It would be nice to be able to find one as good as Prabhupada.

[Kulapavana]

 

It would be nice to be able to find one as good as Prabhupada.

 

I do not compare them, or judge them which one is better. They are all part of the same gift from Sri Guru. I just try to learn from them.

[cbrahma]

 

I do not compare them, or judge them which one is better. They are all part of the same gift from Sri Guru. I just try to learn from them.

There are some critical differences in the siddhanta unfortunately, especially on the subject of physically present guru. I haven't found any need to move 'laterally' from Prabhupada. I have read Bhaktisiddhanta and Bhaktivinode Thakur, however. These are what Rocana dasa calls 'Sampradaya acaryas'

[♣♣♣]

" I haven't found any need to move 'laterally' from Prabhupada"

 

You have only waffled between him and Jesus!

 

HA HA

[Sarva gattah]

 

Exactly, those who try and preach a one and only Guru show a lack of understanding and small mindedness, completely against Gaudiya Siddhanta and the teachings of Srila Prabupada AND the Gosvamis.

 

These are usually people who have never spent time in Braja and seen the mood that is prevalent there among various Vaishnavas.

 

 

A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden.

 

There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept.

 

Generally a spiritual master who constantly instructs a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.

 

Srila Prabhupada said, we would have something like this -

 

"The direct disciple of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, who accepted Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti as his servitor. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura accepted Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, who initiated Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, the spiritual master of Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji, the spiritual master of Om Visnupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja, the divine master of our humble self."

 

 

 

 

[Kulapavana]

 

There are some critical differences in the siddhanta unfortunately, especially on the subject of physically present guru.

 

There are also differences in both 'siddhanta' and practice between Praghupada and Bhaktisiddhanta. Real sampradaya siddhanta is something that crystalizes over generations. minor differences are not a reason to reject anybody in the sampradaya. what really counts is the purity of their motives, their level of personal devotion to Krsna, and inspiration they provide to us with their lives.

[krsna]

One Does Not Find Guru...

Guru Finds You!

[cbrahma]

 

There are also differences in both 'siddhanta' and practice between Praghupada and Bhaktisiddhanta. Real sampradaya siddhanta is something that crystalizes over generations.

There are significant differences? What are they? These are considered Sampradaya acaryas because of their siksa. It is their knowledge that is being transmitted in the sampradaya. Why should it take generations to ... crystallize. In the Vedic system which honors the process of descent rather than ascent, that doesn't make sense

[Kulapavana]

 

There are significant differences? What are they? These are considered Sampradaya acaryas because of their siksa. It is their knowledge that is being transmitted in the sampradaya. Why should it take generations to ... crystallize. In the Vedic system which honors the process of descent rather than ascent, that doesn't make sense

 

The siddhanta of our sampradaya is based on the writings of Six Goswamis, not the writings of Madhva for example. We do not follow Madhva's 'siddhanta' that Radharani is a jiva for a specific example. Anyway, we are getting sidetracked.

[cbrahma]

 

The siddhanta of our sampradaya is based on the writings of Six Goswamis, not the writings of Madhva for example. We do not follow Madhva's 'siddhanta' that Radharani is a jiva for a specific example. Anyway, we are getting sidetracked.

I said I read Bhaktisiddhanta and Bhaktivinode Thakur and you said there were differences as recently as they. What are these significant differences?

[Kulapavana]

 

I said I read Bhaktisiddhanta and Bhaktivinode Thakur and you said there were differences as recently as they. What are these significant differences?

 

First of all 'siddhanta' is a big word, often reserved just for the core philosophical issues of our sampradaya. Doctrine is a more general term. The most significant recent differences in doctrine relate to the issue of the fall of jiva, literality of Puranic descriptions, and the understanding of guru tattva. BVT, BST, and SP were all very independent thinkers and unabashed reformers. Yet the changes they implemented in the GV tradition were often controversial, especially in the light of previous tradition. Nobody prior to BVT would ever dare to question shastra and previous acharyas the way he did. Nobody prior to BST would ever construct the line of disciplic succession the way he did. And nobody prior to SP would claim that jivas fall down from Vaikutha or even Krsnaloka, or dared to have a daily guru-puja in front of the Deities in the temple. Yet the disciples of Prabhupada are flat out scared of thinking for themselves and in many ways are philosophically more orthodox than babajis in Vraja. So you see the doctrine IS changing, often in small but relevant steps.

[cbrahma]

 

First of all 'siddhanta' is a big word, often reserved just for the core philosophical issues of our sampradaya. Doctrine is a more general term. The most significant recent differences in doctrine relate to the issue of the fall of jiva, literality of Puranic descriptions, and the understanding of guru tattva. BVT, BST, and SP were all very independent thinkers and unabashed reformers. Yet the changes they implemented in the GV tradition were often controversial, especially in the light of previous tradition. Nobody prior to BVT would ever dare to question shastra and previous acharyas the way he did. Nobody prior to BST would ever construct the line of disciplic succession the way he did. And nobody prior to SP would claim that jivas fall down from Vaikutha or even Krsnaloka, or dared to have a daily guru-puja in front of the Deities in the temple. Yet the disciples of Prabhupada are flat out scared of thinking for themselves and in many ways are philosophically more orthodox than babajis in Vraja. So you see the doctrine IS changing, often in small but relevant steps.

Questioning sastra is quite different from changing its meaning.

One can play off guru, sastra and sadhu, criticizing one in favor of the other. I've seen that game played in Christianity as well.

No doctrine AS IT IS??? Everything Prabhupada says decries such changes.

Again you seem engrossed in a thoroughly mundane conception of a religious process.

[realist]

 

 

 

 

if one is sincere, that sincerity will attract a Spiritual Master to guide one. If we have firm faith that Krsna is in our hearts, then why not believe He will help us climb out of this 'stagnated' mundane material creation by sending us His beloved representative??

 

 

 

 

 

[cbrahma]

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if one is sincere, that sincerity will attract a Spiritual Master to guide one. If we have firm faith that Krsna is in our hearts, then why not believe He will help us climb out of this 'stagnated' mundane material creation by sending us His beloved representative??

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Where does this opinion come from? And exactly what does that mean - that those who have found a physically present diksa guru are sincere?

That those who abstain from entering into the institutional concept of religion by diksa are insincere?

There are so many initiates that have wreacked havoc in the community with criminal and debased activities. The same applies to some of the gurus themselves. So where is this rule manifest?

[Svarupa]

I quess this is the Answer and those questions, only we can answer, I'm looking for a Guru but I also understand it's got a lot to do with me of how to find one, or him finding me. It's a difficult thing to comprehend, but thats part of the journey.

 

Maybe we shouldn't worry about why others have or have not a initiating Guru. Even with Prabhupada, some took initiation in the 60s to 72 after being in the Temple a few weeks, only to leave and never be seen again when 'My Sweet Lord' dropped out of the top 40. (In other words the guru thing was just a passing fad to many made famous by the Beatles, Ginsburg, LSD and a fasination of Indian religion and music)

 

See back then it was the 'in thing' to have a guru, it went with the peace, brown rice, love and flower power. So what about those young kids who took initiation off Prabhupada and left when the novelty wore off, were they genuin? Well they may of been when they met Prabhupada, but then they chose to fall back into Maya.

 

Actually no matter how pure or surrendered we are, that choice is always there and that's why so many aspiring devotees do leave after a few years of being tested to see if it is teally Krishna they want to serve. Some just stopped being sincere and forget how much they had previously struggled and suffered in the material world.

 

So it's just not being sincere when Guru finds us, we must stay sincere, protect our sincerity with the principles of Krishna Consciousness ALWAYS otherwise we simply fall away.

 

This is a very personally deep subject

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SRILA PRABHUPADA - "God is within your heart. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam. God is not far away. If you are sincere, God sends you a spiritual master. Therefore, God is also called caitya-guru, the spiritual master within the heart. God helps from within and from without.

if one is sincere, that sincerity will attract a Spiritual Master to guide one. If we have firm faith that Krsna is in our hearts, then why not believe He will help us climb out of this 'stagnated' mundane material creation by sending us His beloved representative??

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[cbrahma]

 

I quess this is the Answer and those qustions, only we can answer, I'm looking for a Guru but I aso understand its got a lot t do with me of how to find one, or him find me

 

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SRILA PRABHUPADA - "God is within your heart. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam. God is not far away. If you are sincere, God sends you a spiritual master. Therefore, God is also called caitya-guru, the spiritual master within the heart. God helps from within and from without.

 

 

 

 

if one is sincere, that sincerity will attract a Spiritual Master to guide one. If we have firm faith that Krsna is in our hearts, then why not believe He will help us climb out of this 'stagnated' mundane material creation by sending us His beloved representative??

 

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It's very simple then. The Vaisnava I've learned the most from, the one who got me to practice sadhana would be - Prabhupada.

Problem solved.

[Svarupa]

 

It's very simple then. The Vaisnava I've learned the most from, the one who got me to practice sadhana would be - Prabhupada.

Problem solved.

 

Thats cool man however, a time will come when we will be sent a living Guru who stands for everything Prabhupada is. To love Prabhupada more than your living instructing Guru will be not only obvious but natural because he is who told us about Krishna.

 

That genuin love or bhakti will be recipticated with a living Guru eventually

[cbrahma]

 

Thats cool man however, a time will come when we will be sent a living Guru who stands for everything Prabhupada is. To love Prabhupada more than your living instructing Guru will be not only obvious but natural because he is who told us about Krishna.

 

That genuin love or bhakti will be recipticated with a living Guru eventually

Here we go again with the living Guru doctrine. Prabhupada lives in his vani. He said so. His spiritual master said so. What's up with this church membership idea? That is religiosity pure and simple.

[Kulapavana]

 

Questioning sastra is quite different from changing its meaning.

 

When Bhaktivinoda was saying that Vanaras were actually the dark skinned south Indians, he was changing the meaning of Ramayana. Not the main meaning of this book, but part of the meaning. It was no small thing and it did not go well with the majority of Vaishnavas at the time. The real lesson from this guru and this issue IMO is that one does not have to blindly accept shastra and guru, but should examine them usin our logic, experience, and rationality.