The great historical debate and question, who is ones REAL Guru?

[cbrahma]

 

When Bhaktivinoda was saying that Vanaras were actually the dark skinned south Indians, he was changing the meaning of Ramayana. Not the main meaning of this book, but part of the meaning. It was no small thing and it did not go well with the majority of Vaishnavas at the time. The real lesson from this guru and this issue IMO is that one does not have to blindly accept shastra and guru, but should examine them usin our logic, experience, and rationality.

 

These are not essential to the philosophy of Gaudiya Vaisnavism - it isn't even doctrine, though I disklike that word because it sounds like the product of jnani speculation.

Using logic and reason - I would certainly opt out of a blind religious subjection of my intellect to a diksa guru.

[Svarupa]

 

Here we go again with the living Guru doctrine. Prabhupada lives in his vani. He said so. His spiritual master said so. What's up with this church membership idea? That is religiosity pure and simple.

Some already are loving Prabhupada more than a living instructing Guru. That will be not only obvious but also natural because Prabhupada's books are who told us about Krishna.

Can’t argue with that logic. Therefore, if we keep worshiping Prabhupada, then eventually, due to the fact Guru is one in purpose and simultaniously within the heart representing Krishna, then we may down the tract, find some nice devotee association and be attracted to THEIR love also for Prabhupada.

 

You see it is inherent in human nature to love personally, associate and serve someone you respect as a fine example of a great devotee’. Don’t get me wrong; it is alright to worship Prabhupada as Guru.

 

However, we must also develop the faith that he may direct us to ‘the good association of advanced living devotee ‘down the tract’ to 'instruct' us and initiate us into the parampara.

[cbrahma]

 

Some will and already are loving Prabhupada more than a living instructing Guru will be not only obvious but also natural because he is who told us about Krishna”.

Can’t argue with that logic. Therefore, if we keep worshiping Prabhupada, then because Guru is one in purpose and simultaneously within the heart representing Krishna, then we may down the tract, find some nice devotee association and be attracted to THEIR love also for Prabhupada.

You see it is inherent in human nature to love personally, associate and serve someone you respect as a fine example of a great devotee’. Don’t get me wrong; it is alight to worship Prabhupada as Guru. However, we must also mature and develop the faith that he may direct us to ‘the good association of advanced living devotee ‘down the tract’ to 'instruct' us and intiate us into the parampara.

There it is again - the club mentality - the literal religious membership into the 'parampara' - a formal credential. What does that have to do with the association?

[Bishadi]

 

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if one is sincere, that sincerity will attract a Spiritual Master to guide one. If we have firm faith that Krsna is in our hearts, then why not believe He will help us climb out of this 'stagnated' mundane material creation by sending us His beloved representative??

 

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Where does this opinion come from?

 

Perhaps your post that assimilated anothers idea?

 

 

And exactly what does that mean - that those who have found a physically present diksa guru are sincere?

That they can reflect as a mirror.

 

 

 

That those who abstain from entering into the institutional concept of religion by diksa are insincere?

About the teachers requisites; yes!

 

There are so many initiates that have wreacked havoc in the community with criminal and debased activities. The same applies to some of the gurus themselves. So where is this rule manifest?

 

By a sects form of creed.

[Svarupa]

You see it is inherent in human nature to personally serve, associate and love someone you respect as a fine example of a great devotee. This is what Bhakti is.

 

Don’t get me wrong; it is alright to worship Prabhupada as the only Guru if one wants until such a living Guru reveals himself.

We must also develop the faith that Prabhupada will direct us to the good association of advanced living devotee ‘down the tract’ to 'instruct' us and initiate us into the parampara.

 

 

[cbrahma]

 

You see it is inherent in human nature to personally serve, associate and love someone you respect as a fine example of a great devotee. This is what Bhakti is.

 

Don’t get me wrong; it is alright to worship Prabhupada as the only Guru if one wants until such a living Guru reveals himself.

We must also develop the faith that Prabhupada will direct us to the good association of advanced living devotee ‘down the tract’ to 'instruct' us and initiate us into the parampara.

 

 

Prabhupada lives - I don't need a membership card.

[theist]

I don't accept the vaidity of the term "living guru." It implies there is something call a dead guru. One should consider using the term 'embodied guru' or something like that.

 

Vani was emphasised by Srila Prabhupada even when he carried a human form so why would vani be less important then vapu now? It makes no sense.

 

And what is it about vapuh that is so important? Hearing from the vapu is the most important thing and other things like serving his form etc. are there also. Serving the form, cleaning cothes, cooking etc. are transcendental activities butof them all hearing is most important.

 

The point is the most important thing about being in the associationof guru in vapu is the VANI that comes from his mouth. In every sense vani rules over vapuh in importance.

 

To think differently would mean you think you can take advantage of guru's vapuh by being in the same room with him, hearing him speak, and then ignoring his instructions. This is of course ludicrous.

 

People say they can't find guru and that only means they can't recognize guru when they see Him. How do we see Caitya guru? Through the verses in Bhagavad-gita and elsewhere where He is described. We see through the eyes of scripture.

 

So now that we can see Him in that way what do we do? We approach Caitya guru through prayer, "Please O'Lord guide me to You, help me recognize your Divine Self when you appear as guru and in the shastra. Please reveal Yourself to me in all the manifestations You have taken to enlighten mankind."

Start with Caitya guru. It is by the grace of Caitya guru that we recognize Him in human form. It is by His grace that we can see Him as he is in the verses of shastra and the instructions the spiritual masters left for us as they passed through this world.

 

If we hear from the lips of a devotee without the grace of Caitya guru we will never be able to understand what he says. If we hear the words of the devotee as tapes or books we will not be able to enter into the spiritual understanding they contain without the grace of Caitya guru.

 

Transcendental guru ultimately means Caitya guru who sometimes comes to us in one of His jiva forms. This is why we are told the perfect guru is to be accepted as God Himself because he indeed is the transparent via medium and Krsna's voice comes through him.

 

He may even have his relative side but it is the transcendental side we are most concerned with.

 

We don't accept guru as something apart from Krishna as in I'll accept guru now and later add Krishna to the equation. If we think like this we have not really accepted guru as he is but rather as we think him to be. This means we only have superficially accepted guru or it can be said we have not really accept guru yet.

 

Accepting guru is also a process. It is much more than offering a pledge of allegiance during a ceremony. If we think we have realized guru but are not yet Krishna conscious then we fool ourselves. Accepting guru and accepting Krishna is exactly the same process, and this process is known as diksa.

 

The word PROCESS cannot be emphasised enough IMO.

[Svarupa]

 

I don't accept the vaidity of the term "living guru." It implies there is something call a dead guru. One should consider using the term 'embodied guru' or something like that.

 

Vani was emphasised by Srila Prabhupada even when he carried a human form so why would vani be less important then vapu now? It makes no sense.

 

And what is it about vapuh that is so important? Hearing from the vapu is the most important thing and other things like serving his form etc. are there also. Serving the form, cleaning cothes, cooking etc. are transcendental activities butof them all hearing is most important.

 

The point is the most important thing about being in the associationof guru in vapu is the VANI that comes from his mouth. In every sense vani rules over vapuh in importance.

 

To think differently would mean you think you can take advantage of guru's vapuh by being in the same room with him, hearing him speak, and then ignoring his instructions. This is of course ludicrous.

 

People say they can't find guru and that only means they can't recognize guru when they see Him. How do we see Caitya guru? Through the verses in Bhagavad-gita and elsewhere where He is described. We see through the eyes of scripture.

 

So now that we can see Him in that way what do we do? We approach Caitya guru through prayer, "Please O'Lord guide me to You, help me recognize your Divine Self when you appear as guru and in the shastra. Please reveal Yourself to me in all the manifestations You have taken to enlighten mankind."

 

Start with Caitya guru. It is by the grace of Caitya guru that we recognize Him in human form. It is by His grace that we can see Him as he is in the verses of shastra and the instructions the spiritual masters left for us as they passed through this world.

 

If we hear from the lips of a devotee without the grace of Caitya guru we will never be able to understand what he says. If we hear the words of the devotee as tapes or books we will not be able to enter into the spiritual understanding they contain without the grace of Caitya guru.

 

Transcendental guru ultimately means Caitya guru who sometimes comes to us in one of His jiva forms. This is why we are told the perfect guru is to be accepted as God Himself because he indeed is the transparent via medium and Krsna's voice comes through him.

 

He may even have his relative side but it is the transcendental side we are most concerned with.

 

We don't accept guru as something apart from Krishna as in I'll accept guru now and later add Krishna to the equation. If we think like this we have not really accepted guru as he is but rather as we think him to be. This means we only have superficially accepted guru or it can be said we have not really accept guru yet.

 

Accepting guru is also a process. It is much more than offering a pledge of allegiance during a ceremony. If we think we have realized guru but are not yet Krishna conscious then we fool ourselves. Accepting guru and accepting Krishna is exactly the same process, and this process is known as diksa.

 

The word PROCESS cannot be emphasised enough IMO.

 

Interesting well thought out realizations. Someone who has been around as long as you can only see Prabhupada as there Guru. I understand that.

[theist]

 

Interesting well thought out realizations. Someone who has been around as long as you can only see Prabhupada as there Guru. I understand that.

 

No Svarupa that is not my point at all. The point I am trying to say is Caitya guru is the one universal guru and someone like Srila Prabhupada is His manifestation. If I can attain this vision for real then I am free to acknowledge Caitya-guru in any of His other manifestations as spirtual master. This includes Srila Prabhupada's current disciples or anyone the Lord chooses to empower.

 

So I am pro-embodied guru. But he MUST be realized and not just appointed or voted in by ecclesiastical body. But just as valid is the vani from a realized soul in book or tape form.

 

I am trying to say we need to take advantage of Guru in the form that is already before us no matter of offical hook up or none. Everyone can approach Caitya guru right now in their heart. We need to stop mystfying the process of finding Guru. He is in our heart and in the external world also in a varietyof forms and the only way to recognize Him wherever He is is by His grace. So to find Guru within or without or both one must pray.

 

Such a simple concept. Why all fuss and debates year after year. This is Krishna consciousness 101 IMO.

 

I have not accepted Srila Prabhupada as my spiritual master. I have not in truth accepted Caitya guru as my spiritual master or Lord Caitanya or Lord Jesus Christ. This is all a work in progress. And the years I have been around mean nothing when it is understood that in those years I have done much more nonsense then sadhana bhakti.

 

Somehow this subject mattr has caught my interest but as of yet I have no real standing in authentic God consciousness. It all remains a work in progress. Slow progress I admit but progress nonetheless.

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Svarupa

Interesting well thought out realizations. Someone who has been around as long as you can only see Prabhupada as there Guru. I understand that.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist No Svarupa that is not my point at all.

The point I am trying to say is Caitya guru is the one universal guru and someone like Srila Prabhupada is His manifestation.

 

If I can attain this vision for real then I am free to acknowledge Caitya-guru in any of His other manifestations as spirtual master. This includes Srila Prabhupada's current disciples or anyone the Lord chooses to empower.

 

 

So I am pro-embodied guru. But he MUST be realized and not just appointed or voted in by ecclesiastical body.

 

But just as valid is the vani from a realized soul in book or tape form.

 

I am trying to say we need to take advantage of Guru in the form that is already before us.

 

Everyone can approach Caitya guru right now in their heart.

 

We need to stop mystfying the process of finding Guru.

 

He is in our heart and in the external world also in a variety of forms and the only way to recognize Him, wherever He is, is by His grace.

So to find Guru within or without or both one must pray.

 

Such a simple concept. Why all fuss and debates year after year.

 

This is Krishna consciousness 101 IMO

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[Sarva gattah]

:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist - If I can attain this vision for real then I am free to acknowledge Caitya-guru in any of His other manifestations as spirtual master. This includes Srila Prabhupada's current disciples or anyone the Lord chooses to empower.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

SRILA PRABHUPADA - "God is within your heart. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam. God is not far away. If you are sincere, God sends you a spiritual master. Therefore, God is also called caitya-guru, the spiritual master within the heart. God helps from within and from without”.

 

How I understand this -

If one is sincere, that sincerity will attract a Spiritual Master to guide one. If we have firm faith that Krsna is in our hearts, then why not believe He will help us climb out of this 'stagnated' mundane material creation by sending us His beloved representative??

Some today just worship Prabhupada, however eventually, due to the fact Guru is one in purpose and simultaneously within the heart representing Krishna, then we may down the tract, find some nice devotee association and be attracted to THEIR love also for Prabhupada

it is inherent in human nature to personally serve, associate and love someone you respect as a fine example of a great devotee. This is what Bhakti is.

Don’t get me wrong; it is all right to worship Prabhupada, as the only Guru if one wants until such a living Guru reveals himself.

We must also develop the faith that Krsna in the heart then will direct us to the good association of advanced living devotee ‘down the tract’ to 'instruct' us and initiate us into the parampara.

[krsna]

 

 

The Reprehensible Delusions of Guruship

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Vaishnava teacher who gave these cautionary instructions for gurus wrote many important works on the practise of bhakti. When the sacred town of Sri Rangam was being attacked by Mogul invaders, who eventually slaughtered 12,000 people, he made a daring plan to escape with the utsava murti of Ranganatha (smaller deities above).

- The Reprehensible Delusions of Guruship - it is from a mediaeval south Indian saint and guru, in this case Sri Pillai Lokacarya (1217-1323).

 

 

Pillai Lokacharya has described in Srivachana Bhushan (308 - 310) three reprehensible delusions which must be avoided by the guru at all costs. These are:-

 

 

1. The delusions of ‘preceptorship’ -

thinking of oneself as the preceptor - a guru should think of himself as simply a conduit of the Lord’s Grace and not as a teacher of sacred lore, this awareness prevents the guru from developing the egotistical notion of being a great and learned person and having custodianship of spiritual knowledge.

 

2. The delusions about the role of the disciple -

thinking of the disciple as one’s own personal adherent - the disciple should rather be thought of as a co-disciple of the same acharya. Thus the guru avoids the potential for exploitation inherent in the relationship.

 

3. The delusions arising from the process of instruction of a sisya - these are of four categories:-

 

a. seeking to gain financially from the disciple, either by tuition fees or dakshina.

 

b. the delusion that one is actually facilitating the liberation of the disciple.

 

c. the delusion that one is assisting the Lord in his salvific agenda.

 

d. seeking or expecting social companionship or service from disciples.

[theist]

 

Don’t get me wrong; it is all right to worship Prabhupada, as the only Guru if one wants until such a living Guru reveals himself.

We must also develop the faith that Krsna in the heart then will direct us to the good association of advanced living devotee ‘down the tract’ to 'instruct' us and initiate us into the parampara.

 

 

advanced living devotee

 

You are talking as if Srila Prabhupada is not now living. We are just not on the same page. No problem. But you are still emphasising an embodied guru necessity that doesn't exist IMO.

[Kulapavana]

 

 

The Reprehensible Delusions of Guruship

 

 

1. The delusions of ‘preceptorship’ -

thinking of oneself as the preceptor - a guru should think of himself as simply a conduit of the Lord’s Grace and not as a teacher of sacred lore, this awareness prevents the guru from developing the egotistical notion of being a great and learned person and having custodianship of spiritual knowledge.

 

2. The delusions about the role of the disciple -

thinking of the disciple as one’s own personal adherent - the disciple should rather be thought of as a co-disciple of the same acharya. Thus the guru avoids the potential for exploitation inherent in the relationship.

 

3. The delusions arising from the process of instruction of a sisya - these are of four categories:-

 

a. seeking to gain financially from the disciple, either by tuition fees or dakshina.

 

b. the delusion that one is actually facilitating the liberation of the disciple.

 

c. the delusion that one is assisting the Lord in his salvific agenda.

 

d. seeking or expecting social companionship or service from disciples.

 

very, very relevant!

[Bishadi]

 

very, very relevant!

 

then why this line about the responsibility of diksha:

 

"at least in case of Vaishnava diksha, as per Hari Bhakti Vilasa 1.70:

 

raji catmatyaja dosah patni-papam sva-bhartari

tatha sisyartjitam papam guruh prapnoti niscita

 

"The faults of the counselor fall on the king, and the sins of a wife fall on her husband. In the same way a spiritual master attains the sins of his disciple. That is certain."

 

 

so as them lines above share how foolish these responsibilities are; this diksha suggests the exact opposite

 

as well to see how bhakti is conveyed by acharya; again shares a conflict of responsibility.....

 

Or simply be real careful with the twists of faith

 

When a requisite is maintained to answer in faith rather than comprehension; that guru be just another rascal!

[Laulyam]

TEXT 39

nimittani ca tasyeha

proktany anagha-suribhih

svato jnanam kutah pumsam

bhaktir vairagyam eva va

SYNONYMS

nimittani--the source of knowledge; ca--also; tasya--of such knowledge; iha--in this world; proktani--mentioned; anagha--spotless; suribhih--by devotees; svatah--self-sufficient; jnanam--knowledge; kutah--how; pumsam--of the living entity; bhaktih--devotional service; vairagyam--detachment; eva--certainly; va--also.

TRANSLATION

Spotless devotees of the Lord have mentioned the source of such knowledge. How could one have knowledge of devotional service and detachment without the help of such devotees?

PURPORT

There are many inexperienced persons who advocate self-realization without the help of a spiritual master. They decry the necessity of the spiritual master and try themselves to take his place by propagating the theory that a spiritual master is not necessary. Srimad-Bhagavatam, however, does not approve this viewpoint. Even the great transcendental scholar Vyasadeva had need of a spiritual master, and under the instruction of his spiritual master, Narada, he prepared this sublime literature, Srimad-Bhagavatam. Even Lord Caitanya, although He is Krsna Himself, accepted a spiritual master; even Lord Krsna accepted a spiritual master, Sandipani Muni, in order to be enlightened; and all the acaryas and saints of the world had spiritual masters. In Bhagavad-gita Arjuna accepted Lord Krsna as his spiritual master, although there was no necessity of such a formal declaration. So, in all cases, there is no question about the necessity of accepting a spiritual master. The only stipulation is that the spiritual master should be bona fide; i.e., the spiritual master must be in the proper chain of disciplic succession, called the parampara system.

Suris are great scholars, but they may not always be anagha, or spotless. The anagha-suri is one who is a pure devotee of the Lord. Those who are not pure devotees of the Lord, or who want to be on an equal level with Him, are not anagha-suri. Pure devotees have prepared many books of knowledge on the basis of authorized scriptures. Srila Rupa Gosvami and his assistants, under the instructions of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, have all written various literatures for the guidance of prospective devotees, and anyone who is very serious about raising himself to the standard of a pure devotee of the Lord must take advantage of those literatures.

[Laulyam]

TEXT 58

 

jive saksat nahi tate guru caittya-rupe

siksa-guru haya krsna-mahanta-svarupe

 

SYNONYMS

 

jive--by the living entity; saksat--direct experience; nahi--there is not; tate--therefore; guru--the spiritual master; caittya-rupe--in the form of the Supersoul; siksa-guru--the spiritual master who instructs; haya--appears; krsna--Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead; mahanta--the topmost devotee; sva-rupe--in the form of.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as a liberated devotee. Such a spiritual master is none other than Krsna Himself.

PURPORT

 

It is not possible for a conditioned soul to directly meet Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but if one becomes a sincere devotee and seriously engages in devotional service, Lord Krsna sends an instructing spiritual master to show him favor and invoke his dormant propensity for serving the Supreme. The preceptor appears before the external senses of the fortunate conditioned soul, and at the same time the devotee is guided from within by the caittya-guru, Krsna, who is seated as the spiritual master within the heart of the living entity.

[Laulyam]

<CENTER>TEXT 97

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

surya candra bahirera tamah se vinase

bahir-vastu ghata-pata-adi se prakase

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>surya--the sun; candra--the moon; bahirera--of the external world; tamah--darkness; se--they; vinase--destroy; bahih-vastu--external things; ghata--waterpots; pata-adi--plates, etc.; se--they; prakase--reveal.

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>The sun and moon dissipate the darkness of the external world and thus reveal external material objects like pots and plates.

 

 

<HR>

 

<CENTER>TEXT 98

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

dui bhai hrdayera ksali' andhakara

dui bhagavata-sange karana saksatkara

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>dui--two; bhai--brothers; hrdayera--of the heart; ksali'--purifying; andhakara--darkness; dui bhagavata--of the two bhagavatas; sange--by the association; karana--cause; saksat-kara--a meeting.

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>But these two brothers [Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda] dissipate the darkness of the inner core of the heart, and thus They help one meet the two kinds of bhagavatas [persons or things in relationship with the Personality of Godhead].

 

 

<HR>

 

<CENTER>TEXT 99

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

eka bhagavata bada----bhagavata-sastra

ara bhagavata----bhakta bhakti-rasa-patra

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>eka--one; bhagavata--in relation to the Supreme Lord; bada--great; bhagavata-sastra--Srimad-Bhagavatam; ara--the other; bhagavata--in relation to the Supreme Lord; bhakta--pure devotee; bhakti-rasa--of the mellow of devotion; patra--the recipient.

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>One of the bhagavatas is the great scripture Srimad-Bhagavatam, and the other is the pure devotee absorbed in the mellows of loving devotion.

 

 

<HR>

 

<CENTER>TEXT 100

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

dui bhagavata dvara diya bhakti-rasa

tanhara hrdaye tanra preme haya vasa

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>dui--two; bhagavata--the bhagavatas; dvara--by; diya--giving; bhakti-rasa--devotional inspiration; tanhara--of His devotee; hrdaye--in the heart; tanra--his; preme--by the love; haya--becomes; vasa--under control.

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>Through the actions of these two bhagavatas the Lord instills the mellows of transcendental loving service into the heart of a living being, and thus the Lord, in the heart of His devotee, comes under the control of the devotee's love.

 

 

<HR>

 

<CENTER>TEXT 101

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

eka adbhuta----sama-kale donhara prakasa

ara adbhuta----citta-guhara tamah kare nasa

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>eka--one; adbhuta--wonderful thing; sama-kale--at the same time; donhara--of both; prakasa--the manifestation; ara--the other; adbhuta--wonderful thing; citta-guhara--of the core of the heart; tamah--darkness; kare--do; nasa--destruction.

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>The first wonder is that both brothers appear simultaneously, and the other is that They illuminate the innermost depths of the heart.

[Laulyam]

TEXT 32

 

yatha hy avahito vahnir

darusv ekah sva-yonisu

naneva bhati visvatma

bhutesu ca tatha puman

SYNONYMS

yatha--as much as; hi--exactly like; avahitah--surcharged with; vahnih--fire; darusu--in wood; ekah--one; sva-yonisu--the source of manifestation; nana iva--like different entities; bhati--illuminates; visva-atma--the Lord as Paramatma; bhutesu--in the living entities; ca--and; tatha--in the same way; puman--the Absolute Person.

TRANSLATION

The Lord, as Supersoul, pervades all things, just as fire permeates wood, and so He appears to be of many varieties, though He is the absolute one without a second.

PURPORT

Lord Vasudeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, by one of His plenary parts expands Himself all over the material world, and His existence can be perceived even within the atomic energy. Matter, antimatter, proton, neutron, etc., are all different effects of the Paramatma feature of the Lord. As from wood, fire can be manifested, or as butter can be churned out of milk, so also the presence of the Lord as Paramatma can be felt by the process of legitimate hearing and chanting of the transcendental subjects which are especially treated in the Vedic literatures like the Upanisads and Vedanta. Srimad-Bhagavatam is the bona fide explanation of these Vedic literatures. The Lord can be realized through the aural reception of the transcendental message, and that is the only way to experience the transcendental subject. As fire is kindled from wood by another fire, the divine consciousness of man can similarly be kindled by another divine grace. His Divine Grace the spiritual master can kindle the spiritual fire from the woodlike living entity by imparting proper spiritual messages injected through the receptive ear. Therefore one is required to approach the proper spiritual master with receptive ears only, and thus divine existence is gradually realized. The difference between animality and humanity lies in this process only. A human being can hear properly, whereas an animal cannot.

[Bishadi]

 

TEXT 32

 

yatha hy avahito vahnir

darusv ekah sva-yonisu

naneva bhati visvatma

bhutesu ca tatha puman

SYNONYMS

yatha--as much as; hi--exactly like; avahitah--surcharged with; vahnih--fire; darusu--in wood; ekah--one; sva-yonisu--the source of manifestation; nana iva--like different entities; bhati--illuminates; visva-atma--the Lord as Paramatma; bhutesu--in the living entities; ca--and; tatha--in the same way; puman--the Absolute Person.

TRANSLATION

The Lord, as Supersoul, pervades all things, just as fire permeates wood, and so He appears to be of many varieties, though He is the absolute one without a second.

 

 

Perhaps another purport can be mentioned? As even Bhaktivinoda Thakura Prabhupada's son Bimala Prasada was thinking and writing purports, as it is said, by age 7.

 

If all of existence including all time is Vishnu 'incarnate', then it all makes sense. As He is in all, and recognizing that all can offer a lesson (the birds and the bees analogy), then we can be absolute with nothing other than natures truth with no second (man).

 

meaning with the hindu idea of Varna "to choose" is of each interaction we experience; see God in each interaction rather than remain with 'clouds' of man's words imposed to mind.

 

To simplify the choice; keep Love as the pure guide (honor existence; the total, first) in which at each interaction; is it to support life?

 

Good: supports life

 

Bad: loss to the common

 

To experience life with eyes of understanding; then each interaction experienced is with Vishnu; what is the choice?

[Sarva gattah]

 

You are talking as if Srila Prabhupada is not now living. We are just not on the same page. No problem.

 

Yes, I understand your point, Prabhupada is always with us in our hearts and in his Books instructing those who take shelter of him. The word 'living' is probably not the best word.

 

 

But you are still emphasising an embodied guru necessity that doesn't exist IMO.

I just remember the story of the boy who went into the big old Cathedral in Melbourne in 1972. He entered that church in a totally helpless condition, prayed, and begged to God to ‘please’ show him the way. He felt totally useless and lost in this world and believed no one on the planet has any real understanding of Spiritual life. He had experienced so many from Christianity, TM, Yogananda, Kahlil Gibran, Mere Baba and Timothy Leary to Lennon. But something was missing.

What could he do? Who could he turn too as a ‘personal’ guide? He tried so many paths, realizing he was not enlightened enough to just accept God in the heart as his only Guru and guide, he needed someone to be there embodied right in front of him.

He new so many people were already his Guru’s or teacher by showing him so many tasks from day to day in different fields, but there was still something missing, he never had a initiating Spiritual Mater.

There was something not quite right. Something that Books just could never give him, that would help him advance to the next stage of Spiritual renewal.

He needed that personal touch to eulogize the teachings of God he was searching for within his own heart.

So here is was, on his hands and knees in this marvellous old Cathedral praying for guidance, for leadership, for association. It was during those prayers he heard this low pitched mumbling sound; he looked up and saw a devotee of Krsna standing there looking at religious artefacts. Something just fell into place for this young boy, call it intuition or whatever, but he new that God in the heart had answered his prayer for the ‘personal embodied guidance’ that he desperately needed.

What’s more, the power of God in his heart was a truly amazing experience, that seemed unbelievable, or more to the point, no less than a miracle. The young Krsna devotee left a magazine on the seat; he picked it up, found where the Temple was and left the Cathedral knowing exactly what to. The date was February 18 1972.

On arriving at the Temple, he found a festive atmosphere; it was the Appearance day of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Some will say that was a coincidence however, this boy knew from deep within his heart, it was Krsna IN the heart directing him to the most auspicious day of the Vaishnava calendar.

The young boy shaved up that day and moved into the Temple. A week and a half later His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada arrived in Melbourne. With tears in eye, the young boy presented Srila Prabhupada with a beautiful red rose at the Melbourne Airport.

This boy also was previously convinced before entering the Cathedral, that an embodied guru just doesn't exist. He had now realized that Krsna is in the heart can do anything, even put an elephant through the eye of a needle Why not? He is God <?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p>

This means if one looks deep enough within their own heart, believing it necessary to have an embodied Guru instructing them as a prominent initiating teacher above all others, then Krsna, from within the heart, will direct a bonafide Guru to you, WITHOUT A DOUBT.

Remember, the boy never went searching for Krsna, he just prayed to God within his own heart and God sent him Krsna and Guru, twice. At the Cathedral where he was directed by a devotee (Sharmananda das) to Lord Caitanya’s Appearance day (where he was asked to play the part of Haridas Thakur and Kurma dasa as Lord Nityananda, in a play) and Srila Prabhupada coming to Melbourne 10 days later.

The point here is the embodiment of Guru does exist if you want. Krsna will sent him if you want. It all depends on us. If we are convinced we do not need an embodied Guru, then Krsna from within the heart will not send one, as you desire.

But even if you’re in the faraway corner of the planet, if you REALLY want the help and association of an embodied Guru, then Krsna from within the heart WILL send you one.

You couldn’t get a place further away from the rest of the world than down under Melbourne Australia. This young boy never found Prabhupada, Prabhupada came all the way down there and found him.

Although to be satisfied with the Guru in the form of his books can also be very personal and instructing, I just believe some of us need the personal embodied touch of a Guru as well, simply for the purpose of helping us with his/hers personal association and instructions, because we are really not that advanced to do it on our own just with books..That's how I feel anyway. Krsna is in the heart that we must NEVER forget.<u1:p></u1:p>

Gods representative will come to us in the embodied form if we want, if you pray unconditionally, if we learn to have faith in Krsna in the heart. Why not? Why does it have to be Prabhupada? His embodied pastimes on this planet finished in 1977, you don't think Krsna also has other great devotees here waiting for us to attract them by our helplessness? Do we genuinely feel helpless and materially exhausted like that boy did in the Church?

The young boy in the story previously found many ‘gurus’ but none of them found him. He eventually saw through them all and just kept praying and new His Guru (Prabhupada), who found him eventually, was the answers to his helpless prayers back then 36 years ago

It's a question of what one really wants. This may mean that one can only accept Prabhupada through his books because of ISKCON's recent Crisis but remember, that has nothing to do with Krsna in our heart.

The world is always in crisis but the Guru ALWAYS represents Krishna within our own hearts, and is always somewhere here on the planet. Krsna WILL send an embodied initiating Guru when we are individually ready, when we think we need such association and personal embodied guidance

If we are presently happy with book guidance and worshiping a photo of Prabhupada, then he is your instructing Guru

[cbrahma]

 

The point here is the embodiment of Guru does exist if you want. Krsna will sent him if you want. It all depends on us.

 

So if I want Prabhupada to appear physically and he doesn't I'm not sincere.

[Sarva gattah]

 

So if I want Prabhupada to appear physically and he doesn't I'm not sincere.

 

Prabhupada's representative you mean? Yes God representative will come to you in the embodied form if you want, if you pray, if you learn to have faith in Krsna in the heart. Why not? Why does it have to be Prabhupada? His embodied pastimes on this planet finished in 1977, you don't think Krsna also has other great devotees here waiting for us to attract them by our helplessness? Do we genuinely feel helpless materially exhausted like that boy did in the Church?

The young boy in the story previously found many ‘gurus’ but none of them found him. He eventually saw through them all and just kept praying and new His Guru (Prabhupada), who found him eventually, was the answers to his helpless prayers back then 36 years ago

It's a question of what one really wants. This may mean that one can only accept Prabhupada through his books because of ISKCON's recent Crisis but remember, that has nothing to do with Krsna in our heart.

The world is always in crisis but the Guru ALWAYS represents Krishna within our own hearts, and is always somewhere here on the planet. Krsna WILL send an embodied initiating Guru when we are individually ready, when we think we need such association and personal embodied guidance.

If we are presently happy with book guidance and worshiping a photo of Prabhupada, then he is your instructing Guru

[Bishadi]

 

So if I want Prabhupada to appear physically and he doesn't I'm not sincere.

 

 

reminded me of a madonna song............. living in a material world!

 

Who needs a picture, a statue, any rendition what so ever?

 

Why even seek such a symbol into the physical?

 

know the teacher by the gift of compassionate understanding; (the words entangling him with you)

[bhaktajan]

Bishadi, you do know that you are an atheist.

 

Your idea of God and knowledge equates to Zero-ness/The empty void/A black void.

 

Do you realize this?

 

Your intellectual capacity does not remind one of Kalil Kabran or Blake.

 

The "words" are "what came in the beginning" --henceforth, came all other forms.

 

Your sense of religion and Dharma and Godhead is atheistic.

 

So, I am telling you this, 'out-of-compassion' for you.

 

Stop babbling and Chant the name of Krishna and teach your neighbors to Chant the name of Krishna until you die.

 

You do not possess philosophical truths --you are speculating and hiding behind poetic prose as an excuse to appear sincere with a license to be whimsical.

 

"Absolute" is a universal truth that is real --even if you are bereft of a real teacher who has revealed real truth.

 

There is religious faith in three modes:

 

1. religious faith in goodness.
   
2. religious faith in passion.
   
3. religious faith in ignorance.

These modes of operation allow all levels of beasts and animated life forms to do something progressive during each life time while thus progressing toward future births ultimately leading up an "Absolute Truth".

 

This is the revelation from God to Humanity. So at the end of the day you will bow to Krishna, Yes?

 

ham'dhula habibi,

Bhaktajan