The great historical debate and question, who is ones REAL Guru?

[theist]

My point is Caitya guru is THE guru. Many people heard Srila Prabhupada speak but how many heard Caitya guru speaking as Srila Prabhupada at the same time Srila Prabhupada was speaking of the Supreme Lord. One and different remember.

 

The problem is we think we have a spiritual master who is apart from God. This means we are not really hearing guru's message either from the human form directly, or his writings and tapes etc.

[Bishadi]

 

Bishadi, you do know that you are an atheist.

Your idea of God and knowledge equates to Zero-ness/The empty void/A black void.

Kind of a funny way of recognizing that the ‘zero ness’ is actually a point with ‘no need of things.’

Perhaps as few may think they are guru; cannot understand. So then labeling begins; rather than ask questions. A selfish pursuit!

Do you realize this?

Your intellectual capacity does not remind one of Kalil Kabran or Blake.

OK you made an opinion that ‘I do not remind you of …….’

 

The words are "what came in the beginning" hence forth came all other forms.

and each idea is ‘light’….. remember, our species ‘creates’

now imagine if the ‘collective’ minds of mankind understood, equally……

then go back to chi (ying and yang) and find the change in time (the cycle)

 

…… if each can create and collective conscious can ‘create’ and we each are of this existence (God), then if a comment was made, that the evolution of knowledge is defining existence (the name of God) and this progression is purposed (brahman) and eventually the collective conscious combined can understand; what do you imagine ‘begets the beginning'?

Then maybe we have a responsibility to be pure with existence (Vishnu).

 

Your sense of religion and Dharma and Godhead is atheistic.

Because it does not fit your definition or do you have a question?

I am telling you so 'out-of-compassion' for you.

Telling me? This life is for this purpose; is yours?

Stop babbling and Chant the name of

ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and teach your neighbors to Chant the name of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> until you die.

No!

as a human of compassion does not fib to maintain a belief.

Meaning; what will chanting do for mankind? Perhaps make the teacher, the student, perhaps help the gathering feel good? Why? To be accepted?

Which means; all are to be rocks, making sounds. What is ever developed for tomorrow?

As the word, tone, intent and purpose have no grounds other than faith and misunderstandings, and as your request all people would be walking around making noise but doing NOTHING for existence (Vishnu)…..

nothing of today would be contributed for tomorrow.

 

Such that if Prabhupada followed the idea of simply chanting as you are preaching, then not a word of Thakura’s request to transcribe into English would never have been done

 

as atheistic as it sounds, the commitment is to the total (existence/God) rather than the self;

which is most important?

[bhaktajan]

 

Kind of a funny way?

 

Re-read my posts and learn how to be a human.

 

You MUST ask us questions--Not lecture us.

 

Read my posts and learn how to approach subjects which are foreign to us.

 

You are being contemptuous toward Hindu et al.

 

We are not amused by your efforts to conform to our way of speech whilst faking a poor grasp of english.

 

 

PS: You have earned the right to Chant Krishna's name always. You may now give away your possessions and live in a monestary. Don't respond to this just follow your elders' instructions. GO!

[Bishadi]

 

You do not possess philosophical truths --you are speculating and hiding behind poetic prose as an excuse to appear sincere with a license to be whimsical.

Sorry, it is just that only in these last couple years have any of the works (writing) been shared.

 

So since you cannot find a source, it must fit into one of your rascal style definitions.

 

Have you thought maybe you are debating with someone who can help; forget the name, forget the avatar and attitude; ask questions and make the fool of me.

 

 

"Absolute" is a universal truth that is real --

So by using your definition; either chanting is 'perfect' to all mankind or it is not real.

 

Don;t answer that as no one wants to see you impose a fib to existence.

 

 

even if you are bereft of a real teacher who has revealed real truth.

Existence itself and all the contributions mankinds has to offer; my teacher!

 

 

There is religious faith in three modes:

 

1. religious faith in goodness.
   
2. religious faith in passion.
   
3. religious faith in ignorance.

These modes of operation allow all levels of beasts and animated life forms to do something progressive during each life time while thus progressing toward future births ultimately leading up an "Absolute Truth".

 

THAT IS YOUR OPINION!

 

 

This is the revelation from God to Humanity. So at the end of the day you will bow to Krishna, Yes?

 

Krshna is not isolated from existence in a form to worship.

 

The revealing is when each can be equal in understanding for the 'collective conscious' to realize existence.

 

Maybe that equality is a little too personal, compassionate and of Love than you can observe with; "Good Passion and the removal of ignorance' ????

[bhaktajan]

Quote:

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Bishadi

 

 

Bhaktajan:

There is religious faith in three modes:

 

1. religious faith in goodness.
   
2. religious faith in passion.
   
3. religious faith in ignorance.

These modes of operation allow all levels of beasts and animated life forms to do something progressive during each life time while thus progressing toward future births ultimately leading up an "Absolute Truth".

 

------------

Bishadi:

THAT IS YOUR OPINION!

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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Mudha!

I am quoting the Bhagavad-gita.

 

There is so many seven-elevens in need of your assistance. Make yourself usefull, for God's sake.

[Bishadi]

 

Re-read my posts and learn how to be a human.

Not by assimilation.

 

 

You MUST ask us questions--Not lecture us.

Must?

 

 

Read my posts and learn how to approach subjects which are foreign to us.

r u the almighty salame

 

 

You are being contemptuous toward Hindu et al.

You do not represent existence (hindu et al)...

 

 

We are not amused by your efforts to conform to our way of speech whilst faking a poor grasp of english.

Not here for fun nor this line of arrogance and inequality of association

 

 

 

PS: You have earned the right to Chant Krishna's name always. You may now give away your possessions and live in a monestary. Don't respond to this just follow your elders' instructions. GO!

 

at this point, within months all of my possessions will be gone; a choice was made to quit all pursuits for the intent of conveying and from my house to my wife, father and kid, all know my choice even before becoming an adult; and this 'i' has nothing better to do than 'learn and share' every moment the eyes are open......

 

When a real guru suggests 'come'; then it will be obsevered in the context of the continuance of the truth; not a religion!

[cbrahma]

 

Prabhupada's representative you mean? Yes God representative will come to you in the embodied form if you want, if you pray, if you learn to have faith in Krsna in the heart. Why not? Why does it have to be Prabhupada? His embodied pastimes on this planet finished in 1977, you don't think Krsna also has other great devotees here waiting for us to attract them by our helplessness? Do we genuinely feel helpless materially exhausted like that boy did in the Church?

The young boy in the story previously found many ‘gurus’ but none of them found him. He eventually saw through them all and just kept praying and new His Guru (Prabhupada), who found him eventually, was the answers to his helpless prayers back then 36 years ago

It's a question of what one really wants. This may mean that one can only accept Prabhupada through his books because of ISKCON's recent Crisis but remember, that has nothing to do with Krsna in our heart.

The world is always in crisis but the Guru ALWAYS represents Krishna within our own hearts, and is always somewhere here on the planet. Krsna WILL send an embodied initiating Guru when we are individually ready, when we think we need such association and personal embodied guidance.

If we are presently happy with book guidance and worshiping a photo of Prabhupada, then he is your instructing Guru

If Prabhupada is my guru, he leaves his body so now I don't have a physically present guru. I really desire to have him present (like you say), so, if he doesn't appear, it means I'm not sincere.

[krsna]

Is that not the real question : to be a real disciple would automatically mean you have a real Guru.

 

Can there possibly be real bona-fide disciples of un-bona-fide real Gurus?

[Bishadi]

 

Is that not the real question : to be a real disciple would automatically mean you have a real Guru.

 

Can there possibly be real bona-fide disciples of un-bona-fide real Gurus?

 

Most who claim a faith are taught by the lessons left in writing.

 

So does a physical teacher need to be in presence? NO!

 

They just assist as the truth lives within as it combines with knowledge.

 

But to be literal in rendition; no truths can be realized without the comprehension of knowledge conveyed by a previous teacher, in time.

 

so knowledge can transcend without a guru's presence

 

Perhaps, this is why literature is of such importance as the teachers often write.

[krsna]

 

 

 

Murti of Vedanta Deshika

 

 

 

This is a piece from Sri Vedanta Deshika (1268-1387) and it appears in the Sishyakrityadhikara section of the Srimad Rahasyatrayasara, one of his most important works. The qualities required of the good disciple:

 

Six Essential Qualifications for a Good Disciple

 

1. The disciple should have the highest devotion for his preceptor.

 

2. The wise disciple spreads the good name and fame of his preceptor to others.

 

3. The good disciple takes care of the guru’s property and his posessions.

 

4. The good disciple protects his guru’s teachings with a view to transferring them to a worthy disciple of his own.

 

5. The good disciple is always grateful to his guru.

 

6. The good disciple leads a pure life untainted by wrong habits and practises. Indeed, he should have the eight virtues of the soul spoken of by the sage Gautama:

 

Compassion, Patience, Contentment, Purity, Earnest Endeavour, Noble Thoughts, Absence of Greed, Absence of Envy.

 

[Bishadi]

 

 

The qualities required of the good disciple:

 

 

 

 

 

Six Essential Qualifications for a Good Disciple

 

 

 

 

 

 

Isn't that term 'disciple' what the beliefs of Christianity uses?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. The disciple should have the highest devotion for his preceptor.

 

 

 

 

2. The wise disciple spreads the good name and fame of his preceptor to others.

 

 

 

 

3. The good disciple takes care of the guru’s property and his posessions.

 

 

 

 

4. The good disciple protects his guru’s teachings with a view to transferring them to a worthy disciple of his own.

 

 

 

 

5. The good disciple is always grateful to his guru.

 

 

 

 

6. The good disciple leads a pure life untainted by wrong habits and practises. Indeed, he should have the eight virtues of the soul spoken of by the sage Gautama:

 

 

 

Compassion, Patience, Contentment, Purity, Earnest Endeavour, Noble Thoughts, Absence of Greed, Absence of Envy.

 

Maybe Catholic?

 

Then again, most every preacher of a religion would seek them values in every student.

 

And as the progression continues it seems the teacher would most often be exceeded not only in the periods in time they experience but also in the knowledge and comprehension; as each teacher conveys a progression of understanding from the previous generations accumilation; seems knowledge evolves without much doubt!

 

The statue appears like the Buddha. Have you ever wondered why the ears are often unique on most all renditions of Buddha?

 

is that the requisite of the One true guru?

 

let me see...........?!?!?

 

could be, maybe you would have to come over and see for yourself

[cbrahma]

These are nice words and nice ideals -

Where are the 'real' gurus and 'real' disciples?

The one's who dish out and receive formal diksa?

O that's right, it's all about sincerity, isn't it?

[krsna]

 

These are nice words and nice ideals -

Where are the 'real' gurus and 'real' disciples/

The one's who dish out and receive formal diksa?

O that's right, it's all about sincerity, isn't it?

 

 

 

 

]

 

This is krsna das when he was a baby; he wasn't so sincere or serious then as he didn't get up early in the morning...

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

If Prabhupada is my guru, he leaves his body so now I don't have a physically present guru. I really desire to have him present (like you say), so, if he doesn't appear, it means I'm not sincere.

 

There is a little misunderstanding here. What I am referring to is initiation by a Spiritual Master to begin with. Association of devotees is always desired and if one is sincere, then Krsna will send his devotees to associate with us.

Have you not experienced this walking down some street in a big city and there in the middle of millions, you find, or rather, the devotees find you?

Initiation by a bonafide Spiritual Master establishes the link because he accepts us as his disciple. All of us must have an embodied Guru where the Spiritual Master or teacher has accepted us as his disciple. If one is sincere, then initiation by the physical presents of an embodied Guru is a must.

Sincerity has to be always there because of the living entities god given right to have free will, even in Vaikuntha

Just because one has been initiated because of sincerity does not mean they have ‘made it’ No it is not like that, one has to be always sincere because the material world is a dangerous place, as we have seen and experienced.

The most important thing about a Spiritual Master accepting us as his disciple is, he becomes like a father to us. We, through initiation, sign a contract with the Spiritual Teacher that actually gives us no choose after we are initiated -

 

Srila Prabhupada – “You have taken initiation from me, so actually you are obliged to do this. You have promised, therefore, there is no choice, — you must follow strictly. Otherwise, you are carving your pathway to hell”. Letter to Gauragopala dasa 25th May 1975 Honolulu

 

 

To have an embodied initiating Guru is very important, in fact all of us must seek such initiation.

[cbrahma]

 

To have an embodied initiating Guru is very important, in fact all of us must seek such initiation.

 

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So much discussion has taken place on the subject of formal initiation that I don't want to start it up again. The conclusion that is obvious from the evidence is that diksa does not have to be formal. In fact some people have claimed to have been initiated in a dream. Others have been initiated by 'proxy' (ritivik) etc...

So formal diksa aside, especially considering so many disciples have minimal interaction with their diksa guru, if at all, there really isn't a critical need to have a physically present spiritual master.

I stress this for two reasons.

 

1. There are almost no bona fide spiritual masters extant that I would trust as far as I could throw them.

2. Formal diksa is a religious obsession - that ties into traditional ideas of succession, the very ideas that Bhaktisiddhanta rejected.

[Sarva gattah]

 

These are nice words and nice ideals -

Where are the 'real' gurus and 'real' disciples?

The one's who dish out and receive formal diksa?

O that's right, it's all about sincerity, isn't it?

 

Yes, Krsna is in our hearts, if he can put an elephant through the eye of a needle, he can send us a Guru if we want, we just have to ask and pray. If that is what we really want, above everything else, Krishna will send the embodiment of Guru even if it seems there are few around or even none around due to so many bogus gurus.

 

I have experienced this a long time ago.Krishna is in our hearts, there is ALWAYS His embodied representative on the planet, even if that means one person. If we are really sincere, then Krishna in the heart will send us that one pure embodied Guru to reclaim us regardless of the fallen condition of this world.

 

If we really want Guru, Krishna WILL send him

[cbrahma]

What does he have special magic couriers that send gurus that are really bona fide? Do they just descend from some other planet? Cause I haven't seen any so far.

[Sarva gattah]

 

What does he have special magic couriers that send gurus that are really bona fide? Do they just descend from some other planet? Cause I haven't seen any so far.

 

Look in your heart because there you will find Krishna, he can do ANYTHING because it is His creation. And what He wants to do the most is please His devotees. If we look in our hearts He will help us

[cbrahma]

Oh goodie! I will wish really really hard and POOF - a guru will appear!

If it doesn't happen, it means I'm not sincere.

For what reason I don't know- since you don't need a guru to be physically present for so many reasons that have been repeated over and over again.

I will give you a hint - because they can't be two places at once - and eventually leave their body.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Oh goodie! I will wish really really hard and POOF - a guru will appear!

If it doesn't happen, it means I'm not sincere.

For what reason I don't know- since you don't need a guru to be physically present for so many reasons that have been repeated over and over again.

I will give you a hint - because they can't be two places at once - and eventually leave their body.

It’s a question of what one really wants.

This may mean that if one can only accept Prabhupada through his books because of a world in crisis, struggle, and suspicion in this age of Kai-yuga, that’s all right, but remember, that struggling world has nothing to do with Krsna in our heart who will send us an embodiment of Guru to help us understand Prabhupada’s teachings.

The material world is always in crisis but the Guru is ALWAYS one and represents Krishna within our own hearts, and is always somewhere externally here on the planet.

Krishna in our hearts is always accompanying us EVERYWHERE, therefore He can also externally manifest here on the planet in the representative form of the Guru – if you really want. That is up to us. And yes, he will appear just like magic, beyond the juvenile meaning of that word.

Krsna WILL send His embodied initiating Guru when we are ready, when we need such association and the personal embodied guidance to help us understand and then initiates us into the guru-shishya parampara

[Sarva gattah]

 

There are almost no bona fide spiritual masters extant that I would trust as far as I could throw them.

 

Then trust Krishna in you heart. You do not think He will manifest externally for you no matter how corrupt and fallen this world is?? He will send you His embodied representative to you if you pray and look within you own heart. It is not magic, it is recognising what real reality is, seeing with clear eyes.

 

The word magic is simply another word for ignorance.

Look within your own heart and Krishna will respond by sending you an embodied bonafide Guru you can trust to initiate you and take you back home back to Godhead.

[cbrahma]

It's magic you're talking - not reality. So many have a physical guru - so many have fallen due to religious arrogance. No thanks. Bodily conception is ignorance. ISKCON - the guru vendor.

[Beggar]

 

...ISKCON - the guru vendor.

cbrahma represents those who endorse Srila Prabhupada but use the failures of ISKCON to rationalize their own doubts. This is just the opposite strategy than that of a real disciple. But how can one be a real disciple if they cannot accept any correction from Srila Prabhupada's or any real Gaudiya Vaisnava's followers?

Srila Sridhar Maharaj said, "I am a faith maker not a faith breaker." Chipping away at faith in guru tattva on a mad campaign in the name of Om Visnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacarya Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is a great travesty. To go in the opposite direction of bhakti in the name of an imaginary Prabhupada - amazing. It just shows the power of the external energy of the Lord..

[Vigraha]

 

It's magic you're talking - not reality.

 

The word magic is simply another word for ignorance

 

Krishna is in our hearts and is always accompanying us EVERYWHERE, therefore He can also externally manifest here on the planet in the representative form of the Guru – if you really want.

 

He will send His representative to us if we desire. That is up to us. And yes, he will appear just like magic, but beyond the juvenile ignorant meaning of that word.

 

Look within our hearts and trust the power of prayer, the power of chanting Hare Krishna.

 

 

 

Krishna is in the heart, look within yourself to find God

 

[cbrahma]

Bodily conception is ignorance.