The great historical debate and question, who is ones REAL Guru?

[Vigraha]

 

Bodily conception is ignorance.

 

Krishna is in our hearts and is always accompanying us EVERYWHERE, therefore He can also externally manifest here on the planet in the representative form of the Guru – if you really want.

 

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq-fspWt8FE

[cbrahma]

 

Krishna is in our hearts and is always accompanying us EVERYWHERE, therefore He can also externally manifest here on the planet in the representative form of the Guru – if you really want.

 

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq-fspWt8FE

 

He doesn't have to manifest externally. Bodily conception is ignorance.

[Vigraha]

 

He doesn't have to manifest externally. Bodily conception is ignorance.

 

The material vessel is ignorance, but not if you are a pure devotee. Remember all of us as jiva are bodily formed vigraha devotees of Krishna, presently the awareness of our nitya-siddha bodily form is covered by conscious ignorance known as the baddha jiva that becomes covered in the 'forms' of the subtle and gross material bodies.

 

Only the two material bodies are ignorance, not the 'spiritualized' vessels or bodies that krishna sends His representative in to help us regain and re-establish our original relationship wirth Krishna.

 

In fact the only way to achieve initiation is via a embodied devotee of Krsna who personally accepts us as his disciple

[AncientMariner]

 

cbrahma represents those who endorse Srila Prabhupada but use the failures of ISKCON to rationalize their own doubts. This is just the opposite strategy than that of a real disciple. But how can one be a real disciple if they cannot accept any correction from Srila Prabhupada's or any real Gaudiya Vaisnava's followers?

Srila Sridhar Maharaj said, "I am a faith maker not a faith breaker." Chipping away at faith in guru tattva on a mad campaign in the name of Om Visnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacarya Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is a great travesty. To go in the opposite direction of bhakti in the name of an imaginary Prabhupada - amazing. It just shows the power of the external energy of the Lord..

 

 

I guess it all comes down to a matter of interpretation on who exactly are the real followers and representatives of Srila Prabhupada and Gaudiya Vaisnavism. There always seem to be different philosophical interpretations of Prabhupada and Gaudiya Vaisnavism and consequently people seem to have some serious conflicts in these interpetations. I don't know how you ultimately resolve these different issues but one thing I have learned about Krishna Consciousness is that it seems the philosophical headbutting will most likely continue unless Prabhupada appears and ultimatelys sets the issues straight once and for all or Krishna or something like that. I know I am in no position to determine who is and who is not in the good graces of Krishna and Prabhupada.

[bhaktajan]

 

cbrahma represents those who endorse Srila Prabhupada but use the failures of ISKCON to rationalize their own doubts.

 

This is just the opposite strategy than that of a real disciple.

 

But how can one be a real disciple if they cannot accept any correction from Srila Prabhupada's or any real Gaudiya Vaisnava's followers?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj said, "I am a faith maker not a faith breaker."

 

Chipping away at faith in guru tattva on a mad campaign in the name of Om Visnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacarya Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is a great travesty.

 

To go in the opposite direction of bhakti in the name of an imaginary Prabhupada - amazing.

 

It just shows the power of the external energy of the Lord..

 

Now this is atomic powered thinking!

Wow!

Watch out,

as it may pass right over our head,

and we'll have to wait till the next comet passes!

[cbrahma]

A travesty of logical inference.

[Beggar]

 

... I don't know how you ultimately resolve these different issues but one thing I have learned about Krishna Consciousness is that it seems the philosophical headbutting will most likely continue unless Prabhupada appears and ultimatelys sets the issues straight once and for all or Krishna or something like that. I know I am in no position to determine who is and who is not in the good graces of Krishna and Prabhupada.

It's not exactly, "who is and who is not in the good graces of Krishna and Prabhupada." It is who is giving the proper devotional conclusions or siddhantas. The answer is - guru, sadhu, sastra vakhya citte te koriya aikya. Whatever guru says will be seen in relation to sadhu and sastra. Whatever sadhu says will be seen in relation to guru and sastra. Whatever sastra says will be seen in relation to guru and sadhu.

You or I may not be the determiners of siddhanta but we can at least apply this principle and if we cannot apply it we can at least understand it. And perhaps if we cannot understand it then we can accept and appreciate it.

[AncientMariner]

 

It's not exactly, "who is and who is not in the good graces of Krishna and Prabhupada." It is who is giving the proper devotional conclusions or siddhantas. The answer is - guru, sadhu, sastra vakhya citte te koriya aikya. Whatever guru says will be seen in relation to sadhu and sastra. Whatever sadhu says will be seen in relation to guru and sastra. Whatever sastra says will be seen in relation to guru and sadhu.

You or I may not be the determiners of siddhanta but we can at least apply this principle and if we cannot apply it we can at least understand it. And perhaps if we cannot understand it then we can accept and appreciate it.

 

No disagreement but even in what you say people come up with different interpetations and ultimately it seems they take sides and start condemning the other side. Then you have one group of Vaisnavas saying they are the "real" Vaisnavas and so on. It just becomes a big philosophical headbutting session that ultimately probably will not end until the Kali-yuga ends.

[cbrahma]

 

I guess it all comes down to a matter of interpretation on who exactly are the real followers and representatives of Srila Prabhupada and Gaudiya Vaisnavism. There always seem to be different philosophical interpretations of Prabhupada and Gaudiya Vaisnavism and consequently people seem to have some serious conflicts in these interpetations. I don't know how you ultimately resolve these different issues but one thing I have learned about Krishna Consciousness is that it seems the philosophical headbutting will most likely continue unless Prabhupada appears and ultimatelys sets the issues straight once and for all or Krishna or something like that. I know I am in no position to determine who is and who is not in the good graces of Krishna and Prabhupada.

I don't need credentials to speak from experience. Prabhupada is the guru I quote almost exclusively and not in a negative way. My personal status has nothing to do with the accuracy of my statements. That kind of argument is 'ad hominem'. It is both allacious and non-Vaisnava at the same time.

[Beggar]

 

A travesty of logical inference.

Go back late last year and read the posts of cbrahma expressing doubts in the holy name of Krsna and the entire process of sadhana bhakti as given by Srila Rupa Goswami. Then it is easy to see the connections between those doubts and his doubts in guru tattva. This is all justified in an atmosphere where the guru tattva principle has been politicized by those promoting a mundane conception in the name of Krsna bhakti. How do such things become politicized? By looking at everything from an external viewpoint, na te viduh svartha gatim hi visnu [sB 7.5.31].

[AncientMariner]

 

I don't need credentials to speak from experience. Prabhupada is the guru I quote almost exclusively and not in a negative way. My personal status has nothing to do with the accuracy of my statements. That kind of argument is 'ad hominem'. It is both allacious and non-Vaisnava at the same time.

 

 

Don't know for sure but I think what beggar is saying is that you basically are not qualified to interpet the statements Prabhupada made unless you get initiated by a living guru and become a real vaisnava so he apparently feels you are trying to undermine Prabhupada or something. Don't know for sure.

[Sarva gattah]

Prabhupada -

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=JFoTICJ0WeE

[AncientMariner]

 

Go back late last year and read the posts of cbrahma expressing doubts in the holy name of Krsna and the entire process of sadhana bhakti as given by Srila Rupa Goswami. Then it is easy to see the connections between those doubts and his doubts in guru tattva. This is all justified in an atmosphere where the guru tattva principle has been politicized by those promoting a mundane conception in the name of Krsna bhakti. How do such things become politicized? By looking at everything from an external viewpoint, na te viduh svartha gatim hi visnu [sB 7.5.31].

 

In all fairness to cbrahma there does seem to be a lot of confusion when it comes to the process of bhakti. It starts out with a simple just chant and be happy and then turns into a real complicated thing it seems. That causes me confusion as well but I don't mean it as an attack on Krishna Consciousness as the essence of Krishna Consciousness is undoubtedly a beautiful thing.

[cbrahma]

 

Don't know for sure but I think what beggar is saying is that you basically are not qualified to interpet the statements Prabhupada made unless you get initiated by a living guru and become a real vaisnava so he apparently feels you are trying to undermine Prabhupada or something. Don't know for sure.

Of course that is what he is saying. That's all he ever says, in spite of the fact that there are Prabhupada disciples that will not even associate with GM disciples. It's all about status and position etc..Being on the inside... But that goes back to the traditional religious system - which for all intents and purposes Bhaktisiddhanta rejected.

There are a lot of ways in which the GM gurus and disciples undermine Prabhupada - so it's all a matter of what side of the fence you're on. I dont' want to continue with this side-dialogue with beggar. I have him on ignore for a reason. Because his one and only ploy is to make wholesale personal attacks - 'ad hominem' - conveniently dismissing everything anybody could say. It's kind of a brain-dead tactic which I'm not interested in pursuing. (ignore beggar)

[Beggar]

 

...there does seem to be a lot of confusion when it comes to the process of bhakti.

Was Srila Prabhupada confused about the process of bhakti? His principle criticism of his prominent godbrothers was over the acaryaship in relation to the Gaudiya Matha institution, but it was never over siddhanta or devotional conclusions for they were never confused about the process of bhakti. Was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati or Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur confused about the process of bhakti? So the line of disciplic succession is made up of those who have passed far beyond the level of confusion. Just because we are confused it doesn't mean that everyone else is, especially the great devotees. Otherwise how would they be great devotees?

Bhagavad Gita As It Is 2.7:

 

 

karpanya-dosopahata-svabhavah

prcchami tvam dharma-sammudha-cetah

yac chreyah syan niscitam bruhi tan me

shishyas te ’ham sadhi mam tvam prapannam

 

 

Translation

 

Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of miserly weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me for certain what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me.

 

Persons like cbrahma are disciples of the Prabhupada of their imagination. They do not submit to a anyone including the balancing agents of sadhu and sastra. On the other hand there are those like theist who had association with Srila Prabhupada but didn't take formal initiation for some reason or other. I know cbrahma is in a similar position, but the difference between him and theist is that cbrahma writes mostly nonsensical apasiddhanta whereas generally, theist has a good understanding of Krsna Consciousness. So if you want to listen to an experienced person who doesn't over-empahsize formal diksa don't listen to cbrahma but rather listen to theist. Yes, I'm dropping out of the race and endorsing theist for President of Audarya Fellowship, Spiritual Discussions. Now maybe he'll help me pay my campaign debts!

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

 

 

Here is a nice story told by Srila Prabhupada personally about having selfless faith in the Lord

Prabhupada - http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=JFoTICJ0WeE

Krsna is in our hearts, if he can put an elephant through the eye of a needle, he can send us a Guru if we want, we just have to ask and pray. If that is what we really want, above everything else, Krishna will send the embodiment of Guru even if it seems there are few around or even none around due to so many bogus gurus.

I have experienced this a long time ago. Krishna is in our hearts, there is ALWAYS His embodied representative on the planet, even if that means one person. If we are really sincere, then Krishna in the heart will send us that one pure embodied Guru to reclaim us regardless of the fallen condition of this world or ourselves.

If we really want Guru, Krishna WILL sends him

Trust Krishna in our heart and pray. You do not think He will manifest externally for us no matter how corrupt and fallen this world is. He WILL send His embodied representative to us if we pray and look within our own heart. It is not magic, it is recognising what real reality is, seeing with clear eyes. The word magic is simply another word for ignorance.

Look within our own heart and Krishna will respond by sending us an embodied bonafide Guru we can trust to initiate us and personally take you back home back to Godhead.

 

Krishna is in our hearts and is always accompanying us EVERYWHERE, therefore He can also externally manifest here on the planet in the representative form of the Guru and come to us personally and claim us and help us regain our Krishna Consciousness– the choice is always ours. Krishna will send His representative to us if we desire such guidance and are unconditionally sincere. That is up to us.

And yes, he will appear just like a miracle, a phenomenon beyond our present understanding of Spiritual life. Krishna can do anything, he can send Guru to appear through the connection we all have through in our own hearts. We have to look within ourselves. In other words, look within the heart and trust the power of prayer, the power of chanting Hare Krishna. Only then can we begin to understand Sadhu, shastra and Guru

When Prabhupada came we knew nothing, we only had the first three volumes of the Bhagavatam and an abridged version of The Bhagavad Gita as it is and Krsna Book. We never even new what Sadhu, Shastra or Guru meant, we just new Prabhupada had come to help us; he was all we knew and all we prayed for. Prabhupada came to us and taught us everything.

Many advanced quickly, while others like myself, even though very, very sincere to begin with, always struggled with due to forgetfulness caused by the pressure of the material urges of the senses and mind causing me to constantly not understanding ‘I am not this material vessel’, but am actually the soul within. You see, the high level of sincerity must always be there otherwise one just falls into Maya, no matter how sincere they were to begin with or how advanced they may have become.

On the other hand, I did get the wonderful the association of Srila Prabhupada, of whom I was one of the guards when he visited Sydney and Melbourne. I used to stand and sleep out the front of his room every time he visited and spoke to him on many occasions.

His magnificent association was so powerful that even a fallen rascal fool like me is allowed to always remember Prabhupada in the midst of my selfish trials and self inflicted tribulations during this mad life. But now at 54 I must become serious

I understand clearly now, that such pain in the past was caused by the forgetfulness, that sent me chasing <b>‘mirages in the desert’</b>, so to speak. This meant I forgot Krishna and my own unique sincerity I originally had to begin with that only foolishly cause us to take ‘Spirituality’ for granted. We always must be sincere and never ever drop our guard for even a moment.

This means we must always chant 16 rounds every day and follow the four principles if we are to have the Spiritual strength to not be disillusioned by bodily identity, lust, anger, greed, pride, selfishness, envy, arrogance, reputation good or bad, and death.

If we stop being sincere, then we forget and loose our spiritual strength and begin to cause havoc. In such a forgetful state, we deceitfully exploit the material world that houses so many trapped souls who desperately NEED Krishna and not exploitation. How selfish have I been!! To exploit others for the pleasures of the mundane senses of this vessel I am trapped in, cursed by not be able or willing, on many occasions, to not give them Krishna for so many births!!

I am therefore convinced that one must look in ones own heart to find, not only Krishna, but also His representative Guru, who can reveal to us who we are by showing us how to regain our original Krishna Consciousness. I can only say that is what I did and Krsna sent Me Prabhupada, three times now. There are some things only the father will forgive because you are his son. Others are not so merciful and rightly so.

We all therefore need an embodied Spiritual Master

The Answer is within our hearts.

 

 

 

[cbrahma]

Wonderful:rolleyes:

[cbrahma]

 

Physical presence is immaterial. Presence of the transcendental sound received from the Spiritual Master should be the guidance of life. That will make our spiritual life successful. If you feel very strongly about my absence you may place my pictures on my sitting places and this will be source of inspiration for you.

 

(SP Letter to Brahmananda and other students, 19/1/67)

 

But always remember that I am always with you. As you are always thinking of me, I am always thinking of you also. Although physically we are not together, we are not separated spiritually. So we should

be concerned only with this spiritual connection.

 

(SP Letter to Gaurasundara, 13/11/69)

 

So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That is real association.

 

(SP Lectures SB, 68/08/18)

 

There are two conceptions, the physical conception and the vibrational conception. The physical conception is temporary. The vibrational conception is eternal.[...] When we feel separation from Krishna or the Spirirual Master, we should just try to remember their words or instructions, and we will no longer feel that separation. Such association with Krishna and the Spiritual Master should be association by vibration not physical presence. That is real association.

 

(SP in Elevation to Krishna Consciousness,(BBT 1973), Page 57)

 

Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarsavati Thakura Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the last day of December 1936, I still consider his Divine Grace to be always present with me by his vani, his words. There are two ways of association - by vani and by vapuh. Vani means words and vapuh means physical presence. Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but Vani continues to exist eternally. Therefore, one must take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence.

 

(SP in CC, Antya 5 Conclusion)

 

Therefore we should take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence.

 

(SP Letter to Suci Devi Dasi, 4/11/75)

 

I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not physically present, as I am getting guidance from my Guru Maharaja.

 

(SP Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 14/7/77)

 

It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.

 

(SP in SB 3:31:48)

 

I am always with you. Never mind if I am physically absent.

 

(SP Letter to Jayananda, 16/9/67)

 

Paramananda: We're always feeling your presence very strongly, Shrila Prabhupada, simply by your teachings and your instructions. We're always meditating on your instructions.

 

Shrila Prabhupada: Thank you. That is the real presence. Physical presence is not important.

 

(SP Room Conversation, Vrndavana, 6/10/77)

 

You write that you have desire to avail of my association again, but why do you forget that you are always in association with me? When you are helping my missionary activities I am always thinking of you, and you are always thinking of me . That is real association. Just like I am always thinking of my Guru Maharaja at every moment, although he is not physically present, and because I am trying to serve him to my best capacity, I am sure he is helping me by his spiritual blessings. So there are two kinds of association: physical

and preceptorial. Physical association is not so important as preceptorial association.

 

(SP Letter to Govinda Dasi, 18/8/69)

 

As far as my blessing is concerned, it does not require my physical presence. If you are chanting Hare Krishna there, and following my instructions, reading the books, taking only Krishna prasadam etc.,

then there is no question of your not receiving the blessings of Lord Chaitanya, whose mission I am humbly trying to push on.

 

(SP Letter to Bala Krishna, 30/6/74)

 

'Anyone who has developed unflinching faith in the Lord and the Spiritual Master can understand the revealed scripture unfolding before him'. So continue your present aptitude and you will be successful in your spiritual progress. I am sure that even if I am not physically present before you, still you will be able to execute

all spiritual duties in the matter of Krishna Consciousness, if you follow the above principles.

 

(SP Letter to Subala, 29/9/67)

 

So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living.

 

(SP General lectures, 69/01/13)

 

Devotee: ...so sometimes the Spiritual Master is far away. He may be in Los Angeles. Somebody is coming to Hamburg Temple. He thinks 'How will the Spiritual Master be pleased?'

 

Shrila Prabhupada: Just follow his order, Spiritual Master is along with you by his words. Just like my Spiritual Master is not physically present, but I am associating with him by his words.

 

(SP SB Lectures, 71/08/18)

 

Just like I am working, so my Guru Maharaja is there, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Physically he may not be, but in every action he is there. To serve master's word is more important than to serve physically.

 

(SP Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 2/5/77)

 

So that is called prakata, physically present. And there is another phrase, which is called aprakata, not physically present. But that does not mean, Krishna is dead or God is dead. That does not mean,

prakata or aprakata, physically present or not present, it does not matter.

 

(SP Lectures SB 73/12/11)

 

So, spiritually, there is no question of separation, even physically we may be in far distant place.

 

(SP Letter to Syama Dasi, 30/08/68)

 

I went to your country for spreading this information of Krishna Consciousness and you are helping me in my mission, although I am not physically present there but spiritually I am always with you.

 

(Letter to Nandarani, Krishna Devi and Subala, 3/10/67)

 

We are not separated actually. There are two - Vani or Vapuh - so Vapu is physical presence and Vani is presence by the vibration, but they are all the same.

 

(SP Letter to Hamsadutta, 22/6/70)

 

So in the absence of physical presentation of the spiritual master, the Vaniseva is more important. My Spiritual Master Sarsavati Goswami, may appear to be physically not present, but still because I try to serve his instruction, I never feel separated from him.

 

(SP Letter to Karandhara, 22/8/70)

 

 

Is this enough to dispel the sentimentality of the bodily conception? Not being a mundane religionist/traditionalist I don't wish for something I don't need. Whew (enough already)

[Sarva gattah]

 

Is this enough to dispel the sentimentality of the bodily conception? Not being a mundane religionist/traditionalist I don't wish for something I don't need.

 

Interesting reading, you heart is in the right place, don't let others get to you. In fact I just read some interesting essays at Planet ISKCON, do you go there at all?

[AncientMariner]

Physical presence is immaterial. Presence of the transcendental sound received from the Spiritual Master should be the guidance of life. That will make our spiritual life successful. If you feel very strongly about my absence you may place my pictures on my sitting places and this will be source of inspiration for you.

 

(SP Letter to Brahmananda and other students, 19/1/67)

 

But always remember that I am always with you. As you are always thinking of me, I am always thinking of you also. Although physically we are not together, we are not separated spiritually. So we should

be concerned only with this spiritual connection.

 

(SP Letter to Gaurasundara, 13/11/69)

 

So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That is real association.

 

(SP Lectures SB, 68/08/18)

 

There are two conceptions, the physical conception and the vibrational conception. The physical conception is temporary. The vibrational conception is eternal.[...] When we feel separation from Krishna or the Spirirual Master, we should just try to remember their words or instructions, and we will no longer feel that separation. Such association with Krishna and the Spiritual Master should be association by vibration not physical presence. That is real association.

 

(SP in Elevation to Krishna Consciousness,(BBT 1973), Page 57)

 

Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarsavati Thakura Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the last day of December 1936, I still consider his Divine Grace to be always present with me by his vani, his words. There are two ways of association - by vani and by vapuh. Vani means words and vapuh means physical presence. Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but Vani continues to exist eternally. Therefore, one must take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence.

 

(SP in CC, Antya 5 Conclusion)

 

Therefore we should take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence.

 

(SP Letter to Suci Devi Dasi, 4/11/75)

 

I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not physically present, as I am getting guidance from my Guru Maharaja.

 

(SP Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 14/7/77)

 

It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.

 

(SP in SB 3:31:48)

 

I am always with you. Never mind if I am physically absent.

 

(SP Letter to Jayananda, 16/9/67)

 

Paramananda: We're always feeling your presence very strongly, Shrila Prabhupada, simply by your teachings and your instructions. We're always meditating on your instructions.

 

Shrila Prabhupada: Thank you. That is the real presence. Physical presence is not important.

 

(SP Room Conversation, Vrndavana, 6/10/77)

 

You write that you have desire to avail of my association again, but why do you forget that you are always in association with me? When you are helping my missionary activities I am always thinking of you, and you are always thinking of me . That is real association. Just like I am always thinking of my Guru Maharaja at every moment, although he is not physically present, and because I am trying to serve him to my best capacity, I am sure he is helping me by his spiritual blessings. So there are two kinds of association: physical

and preceptorial. Physical association is not so important as preceptorial association.

 

(SP Letter to Govinda Dasi, 18/8/69)

 

As far as my blessing is concerned, it does not require my physical presence. If you are chanting Hare Krishna there, and following my instructions, reading the books, taking only Krishna prasadam etc.,

then there is no question of your not receiving the blessings of Lord Chaitanya, whose mission I am humbly trying to push on.

 

(SP Letter to Bala Krishna, 30/6/74)

 

'Anyone who has developed unflinching faith in the Lord and the Spiritual Master can understand the revealed scripture unfolding before him'. So continue your present aptitude and you will be successful in your spiritual progress. I am sure that even if I am not physically present before you, still you will be able to execute

all spiritual duties in the matter of Krishna Consciousness, if you follow the above principles.

 

(SP Letter to Subala, 29/9/67)

 

So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living.

 

(SP General lectures, 69/01/13)

 

Devotee: ...so sometimes the Spiritual Master is far away. He may be in Los Angeles. Somebody is coming to Hamburg Temple. He thinks 'How will the Spiritual Master be pleased?'

 

Shrila Prabhupada: Just follow his order, Spiritual Master is along with you by his words. Just like my Spiritual Master is not physically present, but I am associating with him by his words.

 

(SP SB Lectures, 71/08/18)

 

Just like I am working, so my Guru Maharaja is there, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Physically he may not be, but in every action he is there. To serve master's word is more important than to serve physically.

 

(SP Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 2/5/77)

 

So that is called prakata, physically present. And there is another phrase, which is called aprakata, not physically present. But that does not mean, Krishna is dead or God is dead. That does not mean,

prakata or aprakata, physically present or not present, it does not matter.

 

(SP Lectures SB 73/12/11)

 

So, spiritually, there is no question of separation, even physically we may be in far distant place.

 

(SP Letter to Syama Dasi, 30/08/68)

 

I went to your country for spreading this information of Krishna Consciousness and you are helping me in my mission, although I am not physically present there but spiritually I am always with you.

 

(Letter to Nandarani, Krishna Devi and Subala, 3/10/67)

 

We are not separated actually. There are two - Vani or Vapuh - so Vapu is physical presence and Vani is presence by the vibration, but they are all the same.

 

(SP Letter to Hamsadutta, 22/6/70)

 

So in the absence of physical presentation of the spiritual master, the Vaniseva is more important. My Spiritual Master Sarsavati Goswami, may appear to be physically not present, but still because I try to serve his instruction, I never feel separated from him.

 

(SP Letter to Karandhara, 22/8/70)

 

___________

 

 

 

 

These quotes do seem to speak for themselves. I suppose it is possible there is a greater context to those quotes that I am just not getting or something but they seem to be pretty straight forward.

[Beggar]

 

Physical presence is immaterial. Presence of the transcendental sound received from the Spiritual Master should be the guidance of life. That will make our spiritual life successful. If you feel very strongly about my absence you may place my pictures on my sitting places and this will be source of inspiration for you.

 

(SP Letter to Brahmananda and other students, 19/1/67)

Why is Brahmananda feel very strongly about Srila Prabhupada's absence?

Maybe its because he experienced his vapuh presence. Do we want to meet Krsna or do we want to remain separated?

 

 

But always remember that I am always with you. As you are always thinking of me, I am always thinking of you also. Although physically we are not together, we are not separated spiritually. So we should be concerned only with this spiritual connection.

 

(SP Letter to Gaurasundara, 13/11/69)

Did Gaurasundara have direct personal association with Srila Prabhupada?

Yes, it is an historical fact. Was he accepted by Srila Prabhupada and did he take diksa or second initiation? Obviously he did, so Srila Prabhupada's statements are in this context.

 

 

 

 

Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarsavati Thakura Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the last day of December 1936, I still consider his Divine Grace to be always present with me by his vani, his words. There are two ways of association - by vani and by vapuh. Vani means words and vapuh means physical presence. Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but Vani continues to exist eternally. Therefore, one must take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence.

 

(SP in CC, Antya 5 Conclusion)

Why didn't Srila Prabhupada say that he still considered Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur to be present with him in his (the Thakur's) vani? Was it perhaps that he had hare nama and diksa directly from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur? Didn't he also directly receive instructions from his guru to preach in English, especially in the West?

 

 

 

 

 

These quotes do seem to speak for themselves. I suppose it is possible there is a greater context to those quotes that I am just not getting or something but they seem to be pretty straight forward.

Sure you interpretation is correct if you ignore all the ideas that I just presented.

[AncientMariner]

"Sure you interpretation is correct if you ignore all the ideas that I just presented."

 

 

That is a reasonable argument you make about those disciples but what do you make of the following statement by Prabhupada?

 

 

It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.

 

(SP in SB 3:31:48)

 

 

and some others

 

So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical

presence. That is real association.

(Lectures SB, 68/08/18)

 

There are two conceptions, the physical conception and the

vibrational conception. The physical conception is temporary. The

vibrational conception is eternal.[...] When we feel separation from

Krsna or the Spirirual Master, we should just try to remember their

words or instructions, and we will no longer feel that separation.

Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master should be

association by vibration not physical presence. That is real

association. (Elevation to Krsna Consciousness,(BBT 1973), Page

 

 

So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be

accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we

have heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living. (General

lectures, 69/01/13)

 

So that is called prakata, physically present. And there is another

phrase, which is called aprakata, not physically present. But that

does not mean, Krsna is dead or God is dead. That does not mean,

prakata or aprakata, physically present or not present, it does not

matter. (Lectures SB 73/12/11)

 

 

 

____

 

These statements seem to have been made in general lectures. Does that mean these general lectures were only intended to the initiated disciples or were they open to the public?

[Beggar]

 

 

It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.

 

(SP in SB 3:31:48)

 

This is general preaching. By understanding the problems of life [birth, death, disease and old age] one will desire to find a solution. In order to find the solution one must surrender to the spiritual master which is the doorway or basis of bhakti. But this is certainly a very preliminary stage of vaidhi sadhana bhakti.

 

 

 

 

So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical

presence. That is real association.

(Lectures SB, 68/08/18)

This means that one should not consider a real spiritual master to be like some sort of a doll. We must hear hari katha from him and not just try to get close to him in some sort of [mundane] sentimental fashion.

 

 

There are two conceptions, the physical conception and the

vibrational conception. The physical conception is temporary. The

vibrational conception is eternal.[...] When we feel separation from

Krsna or the Spirirual Master, we should just try to remember their

words or instructions, and we will no longer feel that separation.

Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master should be

association by vibration not physical presence. That is real

association. (Elevation to Krsna Consciousness,(BBT 1973)

 

Association by vibration means to hear through submissive aural reception.

 

 

 

So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be

accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we

have heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living. (General

lectures, 69/01/13)

 

Again hearing means with the ears, from the lotus like mouth of gurudeva.

 

 

(2)

guru-mukha-padma-vakya, chittete koriya aikya

ar na koriho mane asha

shri-guru-charane rati, ei se uttama-gati

je prasade pure sarva asha

(2) My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth. Attachment to his lotus feet is the perfection that fulfills all desires.

 

 

 

So that is called prakata, physically present. And there is another

phrase, which is called aprakata, not physically present. But that

does not mean, Krsna is dead or God is dead. That does not mean,

prakata or aprakata, physically present or not present, it does not

matter. (Lectures SB 73/12/11)

 

Krsna's body is aprakata or transcendental. It is never prakata like the imitationist prakrta [prakata] sahajiyas maintain. We cannot see Krsna's swarupa or form with our prakata or mundane eyes. We will have to be given spiritual eyes to see Krsna. But before that stage we can hear about Krsna from the lotus mouth of the spiritual master. In that way we will develop some greed or laulyam to meet with Krsna and serve him in our transcendental swarupa, or spiritual body.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Is this enough to dispel the sentimentality of the bodily conception? Not being a mundane religionist/traditionalist I don't wish for something I don't need. Whew (enough already)

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Physical presence is immaterial. Presence of the transcendental sound received from the Spiritual Master should be the guidance of life. That will make our spiritual life successful. If you feel very strongly about my absence you may place my pictures on my sitting places and this will be source of inspiration for you.

 

(SP Letter to Brahmananda and other students, 19/1/67)

 

But always remember that I am always with you. As you are always thinking of me, I am always thinking of you also. Although physically we are not together, we are not separated spiritually. So we should

be concerned only with this spiritual connection.

 

(SP Letter to Gaurasundara, 13/11/69)

 

So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That is real association.

 

(SP Lectures SB, 68/08/18)

 

There are two conceptions, the physical conception and the vibrational conception. The physical conception is temporary. The vibrational conception is eternal.[...] When we feel separation from Krishna or the Spirirual Master, we should just try to remember their words or instructions, and we will no longer feel that separation. Such association with Krishna and the Spiritual Master should be association by vibration not physical presence. That is real association.

 

(SP in Elevation to Krishna Consciousness,(BBT 1973), Page 57)

 

Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarsavati Thakura Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the last day of December 1936, I still consider his Divine Grace to be always present with me by his vani, his words. There are two ways of association - by vani and by vapuh. Vani means words and vapuh means physical presence. Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but Vani continues to exist eternally. Therefore, one must take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence.

 

(SP in CC, Antya 5 Conclusion)

 

Therefore we should take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence.

 

(SP Letter to Suci Devi Dasi, 4/11/75)

 

I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not physically present, as I am getting guidance from my Guru Maharaja.

 

(SP Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 14/7/77)

 

It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.

 

(SP in SB 3:31:48)

 

I am always with you. Never mind if I am physically absent.

 

(SP Letter to Jayananda, 16/9/67)

 

Paramananda: We're always feeling your presence very strongly, Shrila Prabhupada, simply by your teachings and your instructions. We're always meditating on your instructions.

 

Shrila Prabhupada: Thank you. That is the real presence. Physical presence is not important.

 

(SP Room Conversation, Vrndavana, 6/10/77)

 

You write that you have desire to avail of my association again, but why do you forget that you are always in association with me? When you are helping my missionary activities I am always thinking of you, and you are always thinking of me . That is real association. Just like I am always thinking of my Guru Maharaja at every moment, although he is not physically present, and because I am trying to serve him to my best capacity, I am sure he is helping me by his spiritual blessings. So there are two kinds of association: physical

and preceptorial. Physical association is not so important as preceptorial association.

 

(SP Letter to Govinda Dasi, 18/8/69)

 

As far as my blessing is concerned, it does not require my physical presence. If you are chanting Hare Krishna there, and following my instructions, reading the books, taking only Krishna prasadam etc.,

then there is no question of your not receiving the blessings of Lord Chaitanya, whose mission I am humbly trying to push on.

 

(SP Letter to Bala Krishna, 30/6/74)

 

'Anyone who has developed unflinching faith in the Lord and the Spiritual Master can understand the revealed scripture unfolding before him'. So continue your present aptitude and you will be successful in your spiritual progress. I am sure that even if I am not physically present before you, still you will be able to execute

all spiritual duties in the matter of Krishna Consciousness, if you follow the above principles.

 

(SP Letter to Subala, 29/9/67)

 

So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living.

 

(SP General lectures, 69/01/13)

 

Devotee: ...so sometimes the Spiritual Master is far away. He may be in Los Angeles. Somebody is coming to Hamburg Temple. He thinks 'How will the Spiritual Master be pleased?'

 

Shrila Prabhupada: Just follow his order, Spiritual Master is along with you by his words. Just like my Spiritual Master is not physically present, but I am associating with him by his words.

 

(SP SB Lectures, 71/08/18)

 

Just like I am working, so my Guru Maharaja is there, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Physically he may not be, but in every action he is there. To serve master's word is more important than to serve physically.

 

(SP Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 2/5/77)

 

So that is called prakata, physically present. And there is another phrase, which is called aprakata, not physically present. But that does not mean, Krishna is dead or God is dead. That does not mean,

prakata or aprakata, physically present or not present, it does not matter.

 

(SP Lectures SB 73/12/11)

 

So, spiritually, there is no question of separation, even physically we may be in far distant place.

 

(SP Letter to Syama Dasi, 30/08/68)

 

I went to your country for spreading this information of Krishna Consciousness and you are helping me in my mission, although I am not physically present there but spiritually I am always with you.

 

(Letter to Nandarani, Krishna Devi and Subala, 3/10/67)

 

We are not separated actually. There are two - Vani or Vapuh - so Vapu is physical presence and Vani is presence by the vibration, but they are all the same.

 

(SP Letter to Hamsadutta, 22/6/70)

 

So in the absence of physical presentation of the spiritual master, the Vaniseva is more important. My Spiritual Master Sarsavati Goswami, may appear to be physically not present, but still because I try to serve his instruction, I never feel separated from him.

 

(SP Letter to Karandhara, 22/8/70)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

All these quotes refer to those already initiated by Prabhupada.

 

Initiation is important because the Spiritual Master takes one as his disciple and you accept him as your Guru. It is not a wishy-washy think one can 'dream' that have had while sleeping at not. There has to be reciprocation between disciple and Guru who walks amongst us. It is not possible to take initiation from Srila Bhaktivenode, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, Srila Prabhupada or Srila Sridhar Maharaj for the obvious reasons.

It does not always have to be formal. For example, Prabhupada always said that George Harrison was already his disciple. The point is there was the embodied reciprocation between disciple George and Guru Prabhupada even, if that meeting is only once, which wasn’t in Georges case.

For the parampara to be bonafide there has to be that embodied link, otherwise any shmo can say they are in that parampara .

There must be initiation from an embodied Guru to be part of the Brahma Madhava Gaudiya Sampradaya. Just reading books can never make that link

If one is seriously sincere, they will take initiation from a Guru who walks amongst us

[cbrahma]

 

For the parampara to be bonafide there has to be that embodied link, otherwise any shmo can say they are in that parampara

 

Says who?

Gosh and the fire sacrifice prevents them from being shmos? ...All those unqualified ISKCON gurus falling like a summer shower.

Note very carefully To date the diksa lineage is corrupted (read caste goswami)

 

News flash---the parampara is a siksa not a diksa parampara.