krsna Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 No shmos in the parampara please! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 Diska is always present because there is always somebody claiming to be in the parampara by virtue of diksa. With ample supply of mantra purveyors, the salvation brokerage is always open for business. Corruption is lucrative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 "Initiation is a formality. If you are serious, that is real initiation. My touch is simply a formality. It is your determination. That is initiation." (morning walk, Seattle, 02/10/68) Since Srila Prabhupada has left our material vision - one must be very cautious in considering taking ritual Initiation from any presently-available guru. If a guru is not an utterly pure devotee of Lord Krishna - as Srila Prabhupada is - there can be devastating spiritual consequences to both the diksa-guru and the initiate. Numerous post-Prabhupada diksa-"gurus" have manifested their inability to handle the spiritual weight of such a role, by devastating "fall-downs" from spiritual life - and even worse consequences. Because of the spiritual ties binding diksa-guru and initiate, every person who takes initiation from such spiritually unprepared "gurus" suffers severe reactions due to these "fall-downs." This has been well-proven by the (literally) thousands of good-hearted, pious devotees who have left the movement altogether, after losing their diksa-"gurus" to the allurements of Maya-Devi (material illusion, personified) . -Where Does This Leave Us Now ? - "Sometimes a diksa-guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the siksa-guru." (Srila Prabhupada: lecture - Bhagavad-gita 17.1-3, Honolulu, 07/04/73) There have been many times throughout history, during which there has been no available diksa-guru. It is at such times that sincere devotees must be tolerant, taking full shelter of the holy name and of the empowered shiksa-guru, while trusting in the unimaginable mercy and compassion of Lord Krishna to make all things right. With Srila Prabhupada no longer available - and with no other persons yet proven to be spiritually pure enough to offer diksha without harsh karmic reactions - we are presently in such an admittedly difficult situation. Yet, we do continue to be blessed with Srila Prabhupada's presence as the self-effulgent jagat shiksa-guru for this time, in his incomparable writings. As he promised, he will live forever in his books! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted June 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 This painting is worth a million words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 This is general preaching. By understanding the problems of life [birth, death, disease and old age] one will desire to find a solution. In order to find the solution one must surrender to the spiritual master which is the doorway or basis of bhakti. But this is certainly a very preliminary stage of vaidhi sadhana bhakti. This means that one should not consider a real spiritual master to be like some sort of a doll. We must hear hari katha from him and not just try to get close to him in some sort of [mundane] sentimental fashion. Association by vibration means to hear through submissive aural reception. Again hearing means with the ears, from the lotus like mouth of gurudeva. (2) guru-mukha-padma-vakya, chittete koriya aikya ar na koriho mane asha shri-guru-charane rati, ei se uttama-gati je prasade pure sarva asha (2) My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth. Attachment to his lotus feet is the perfection that fulfills all desires. Krsna's body is aprakata or transcendental. It is never prakata like the imitationist prakrta [prakata] sahajiyas maintain. We cannot see Krsna's swarupa or form with our prakata or mundane eyes. We will have to be given spiritual eyes to see Krsna. But before that stage we can hear about Krsna from the lotus mouth of the spiritual master. In that way we will develop some greed or laulyam to meet with Krsna and serve him in our transcendental swarupa, or spiritual body. If hearing is only through the ears then why do the acaryas write books? What is the purpose of them writing books and distributing them to the public if the message of the spiritual master can only be transmitted through aural reception? Wouldn't they be better off using a loudspeaker at college campuses or airports rather than handing out books? If a legitimate physically embodied guru is going to be saying essentially the same thing that Prabhupada would say then why is reading Prabhupadas books not a legitimate form of association with Krishna? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 If hearing is only through the ears then why do the acaryas write books? What is the purpose of them writing books and distributing them to the public if the message of the spiritual master can only be transmitted through aural reception? Wouldn't they be better off using a loudspeaker at college campuses or airports rather than handing out books? If a legitimate physically embodied guru is going to be saying essentially the same thing that Prabhupada would say then why is reading Prabhupadas books not a legitimate form of association with Krishna? Remember that Krsna is bhagavan and He is therefore non-dual like brahman and paramatma. vadanti tat viddha...brahmeti, paramatmameti, bhagavan iti shabyate. So as Srila Sridhar Maharaj paraphrases Krsna in Bhagavad Gita, "I, am here but I am not here." So there is always this acintya or inconceivable nature of the Absolute. He would also say, "Krsna is not a sweetball that you can have in your hand." The books of the bonafide spiritual master are very important, very powerful and very potent to deliver the association of guru and Krsna. But within those books we will find so many times it is told that we should hear with our ears from the lotus mouth of Sri guru. So if we read the books then we must follow their advice and seek out sadhu sanga. It is only common sense. When there is no sadhu sanga then we can always take shelter of the holy name and the books of the bonafide spiritual master (and this doesn't mean that they will be neglected within sadhu sanga).. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 Remember that Krsna is bhagavan and He is therefore non-dual like brahman and paramatma. vadanti tat viddha...brahmeti, paramatmameti, bhagavan iti shabyate. So as Srila Sridhar Maharaj paraphrases Krsna in Bhagavad Gita, "I, am here but I am not here." So there is always this acintya or inconceivable nature of the Absolute. He would also say, "Krsna is not a sweetball that you can have in your hand."The books of the bonafide spiritual master are very important, very powerful and very potent to deliver the association of guru and Krsna. But within those books we will find so many times it is told that we should hear with our ears from the lotus mouth of Sri guru. So if we read the books then we must follow their advice and seek out sadhu sanga. It is only common sense. When there is no sadhu sanga then we can always take shelter of the holy name and the books of the bonafide spiritual master (and this doesn't mean that they will be neglected within sadhu sanga).. I can accept that answer. Maybe someday I will seek out more sadhu sanga. If I ever do I am going to try and make sure that they really are on the brahmanical platform or above because it seems the Kali-yuga is full of danger even in religous association so to speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishadi Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 This painting is worth a million words is the name of the painting; The evolution of knowledge or maybe; the progression of Guru; the student takes over! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That is real association. “(Lectures SB, 68/08/18) “It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.” (SB 3:31:48) “Paramahamsa: My question is, a pure devotee, when he comments on Bhagavad-gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with the commentary, explanation, is this the same thing? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. You can associate with Krsna by reading Bhagavad-Gita. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty?” (Morning Walk, Paris 11/6/74) “The influence of the pure devotee is such that if someone comes to associate with him with a little faith, he gets the chance of hearing about the Lord from authoritative scriptures like Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita. This is the first stage of association with the pure devotee.” (Nectar of Devotion, (1982 Ed.), p146) “So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living.” (General lectures, 69/01/13) “These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads, he is hearing.” (Letter to Rupanuga Das, 19/10/74) “Krsna and his representative are the same. Similarly, the spiritual master can be present wherever the disciple wants. A spiritual master is the principle, not the body. Just like a television can be seen in thousands of place by the principle of relay monitoring.” (Letter to Malati, 28/5/68) “Narayana: So those disciples who don't have the opportunity to see you or speak with you... Srila Prabhupada: That he was speaking, vani and vapuh. Even if you don't see his body, you take his words, vani.” (Room conversation, 21/7/75) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 Here This Is Our Preceptorial Line (In REAL Time With Real Gurus) In "Gaura-ganodesa-dipika" Srila Kavi Karnapura lists the parampara of the Gaudiya Vaisnavas from Lord Brahma up to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as follows: tatra madhvi sampradayah prastavad atra likhyate paravyomesvarasyasic chisyo brahma jagat-patih tasya sisyo narado'bhud vyasas tasyapa sisyatam suko vyasasya sisyatvam prapto jnanavarodhatat tasya sisyah prasisyas ca bahavo bhutale sthitah vyasal labdha-krsna-dikso madhvacaryo maha-yasah cakre vedan vibhajyasau samhitam sata-dusanim nirgunad brahmano yatra sa-gunasya pariskriya tasya sisyo'bhavat padmanabhacaryo mahasayah tasya sisyo naraharis tac-chisyo madhava-dvijah aksobhyas tasya sisyo'bhut tac-chisyo jayatirthakah tasya sisyo jnanasindhus tasya sisyo mahanidhih vidyanidhis tasya sisyo rajendras tasya sevakah jayadharma-munis tasya sisyo yad-gana-madhyatah srimad-visnupuri yas tu bhakti-ratnavali-krtih jayadharmasya sisyo'bhud brahmanah purusottamah vyasa-tirthas tasya sisyo yas cakre visnu-samhitam sriman laksmipatis tasya sisyo bhakti-rasasrayah tasya sisyo madhavendro yaddharmo'yam pravartitah kalpa-vrksasyavataro vraja-dhamani tis��hitah prita-preyo vatsalatojjvalakhya phala-dharinah tasya sisyo'bhavac chriman isvarakhya-puri-yatih kalayamasa sr��garam yah sr��gara-phalatmakah advaitah kalayamasa dasya-sakhye phale ubhe sriman ra��gapuri hy esa vatsalye yah samasritah isvarakhya-purim gaura urarikrtya gaurave jagad aplavayamasa prakrtaprakrtatmakam "I shall now begin this book by describing the disciplic succession descended from Sripada Madhvacarya. Lord Brahma, the creator of the universe became the disciple of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Narayana. Brahma's disciple was Narada. Narada's disciple was Vyasa. Vyasa then transmitted transcendental knowledge to his disciple Sukadeva. Sukadeva taught the same knowledge to his many disciples and grand-disciples in this world. The famous Madhvacarya received initiation from Vyasa personally. Madhvacarya carefully studied all the Vedas from Vyasa, and later wrote his book 'Mayavada-sata-dusani', where he proved that the Absolute Truth is the Supreme Person, full of all transcendental qualities, and not the quality-less impersonal Brahman. Madhvacarya's disciple was the exalted Padmanabhacarya. Padmanabhacarya's disciple was Narahari. Narahari's disciple was Madhava-dvija. Madhava-dvija's disciple was Aksobhya. Aksobhya's disciple was Jaya Tirtha. Jaya Tirtha's disciple was Jnanasindhu. Jnanasindhu's disciple was Mahanidhi. Mahanidhi's disciple was Vidyanidhi. Vidyanidhi's disciple was Rajendra. Rajendra's disciple was Jayadharma Muni. Among Jayadharma Muni's disciples was Sriman Visnupuri, the famous author of the 'Bhakti-ratnavali'. Another disciple of Jayadharma was Brahmana Purusottama. Purusottama's disciple was Vyasa Tirtha, who wrote the famous book Sri Visnu-samhita. Vyasa Tirtha's disciple was Sriman Laksmipati, who was like a great reservoir of the nectar of devotional service. Laksmipati's disciple was Madhavendra Puri, a great preacher of devotional service. Madhavendra Puri was the incarnation of a kalpa-vrksa tree in the abode of Vraja. This tree bears as its fruits the mellows of servitude to Lord Krsna, friendship with Lord Krsna, parental love for Lord Krsna, and conjugal love for Lord Krsna. Madhavendra Puri's disciple was Sriman Isvara Puri Svami. Isvara Puri carefully understood the mellows of conjugal love for Lord Krsna, and was able to distribute that fruit to others. Sri Advaita Acarya displayed the sentiments of servitorship and friendship for the Lord, and Sriman Ranga Puri manifested the sentiment of parental love for Lord Krsna. Lord Caitanya accepted Sriman Isvara Puri as His spiritual master. The Lord proceeded to flood the entire world with spontaneous transcendental love for Krsna." (Gaura Ganodesa-dipika 22-25) The above-mentioned disciplic succession given by Kavi Karnapura has been accepted by Bhaktivinoda Thakura and this is evident from the following statement: ei samasta vakyadvara spasta pratita haya ye, Sri brahma sampradayai Sri Krsna Caitanya -dasadiganer guru-pranali. Sri Kavi Karnapura Gosvami ei anusarre drta kariya sviyakrta 'Gaura Ganodesa-dipika' ya guru-pranalir krama likhiyachen. Vedanta-sutra-bhasyakara Sri Vidyabhusana u sei pranalike sthira rakhiyacchen. Yahara ei pranalike asvikara karen, tahara ye Sri Krsna Caitanya-carananucara-ganer pradhana satru, ihate ara sandeha ki? "It is evident that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu belonged to the Brahma sampradaya, as it descends through Madhvacarya. Kavi Karnapura confirmed this line of disciplic succession in his Gaura Ganodesa-dipika, and the writer of the commentary of the Vedanta, Sri Baldeva Vidyabhusana, did so again (in his Prameya Ratnavali ). Is there any doubt that those who do not accept this line of disciplic succession are the principle enemies of the followers of Sri Krsna Caitanya?" (Bhaktivinoda Thakura - Sri Mahaprabhur-siksa, Ch.2) Bhaktivinoda further states in Chapter Two of Sri Mahaprabhur-siksa that anyone who does not accept these statements is an atheist: Sri Krsna Caitanya sampradaya svikara karata gopane guru- parampara siddha-pranali svikara Karen na, tahara kalir guptacara. Ihate sandeha ki? "Anyone who refuses to accept such statements is a promoter of atheism. Those who accept the authority of Sri Krsna Caitanya but secretly do not accept this disciplic succession of spiritual preceptors are actually agents of Kali. Can there be any doubt about this?" (Bhaktivinoda Thakura - Sri Mahaprabhur-siksa, Ch.2) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted June 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 http://www.vedaveda.com/gitagita/en/prabhupada/100.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Letter to: Kirtanananda — Los Angeles 25 January, 1969 69-01-25 My Dear Kirtanananda, Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated 18, January 1969, and I have carefully noted the contents. I am encouraged to know that you are very enthusiastic about our projects for developing New Vrindaban. So far as the school goes, we have many qualified teachers, and they are all enthusiastic about going there and beginning their teaching work. The only thing is that there is as of yet no place to accommodate these teachers. So as soon as these facilities are constructed we can at once start at full force in setting up our Krishna Consciousness school program. You have asked some questions, and I will answer them herewith. The first question is, "When making arati offerings, is it proper to meditate on the different parts of the Lord's Body?'' The answer is that there is no need to meditate in that way. The Lord is actually there with you, and you are seeing all of His parts of the Body, so there is no need to meditate in that way. In regard to the other questions, food should be offered before arati. In the morning, after arati, you can offer some food and then perform kirtana. Regarding your question about the disciplic succession coming down from Arjuna, it is just like I have got my disciples, so in the future these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession. So in one line of disciples we may not see another name coming from a different line. But this does not mean that person whose name does not appear was not in the disciplic succession. Narada was the Spiritual Master of Vyasadeva, and Arjuna was Vyasadeva's disciple, not as initiated disciple but there was some blood relation between them. So there is connection in this way, and it is not possible to list all such relationships in the short description given in Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. The conclusions which we have tried to explain in our Bhagavad-gita As It Is is the same as those conclusions of Arjuna. Arjuna accepted Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and we also accept the same truth under the disciplic succession of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another. This is an axiomatic truth. So there is no difference of opinion of understanding Krishna between ourselves and Arjuna. Another example is that a tree has many branches, and you will find one leaf here and another leaf there. But if you take this leaf and the other leaf and you press them both, you will see that the taste is the same. The taste is the conclusion, and from the taste you can understand that both leaves are from the same tree. Regarding the problem with your father, it is not good to fight with one's father, but if he is not going to give you the money, it may be necessary to take legal steps. Since the money is to be used in Krishna's service, you should try to get it. I have heard from Syama Dasi that she has infected her finger, and I will be glad to know of the particulars so I may give her advice in this matter. I hope this will meet you in good health. Your ever well-wisher, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami NB: I understand from Hayagriva that you have at New Vrindaban an edited manuscript of Easy Journey To Other Planets. Send this copy to me immediately because in London, Mukunda is attempting to have this published and I would like to read the edited version and send it on to him. So far as your idea of editing the lectures which you started to edit in Montreal, the idea is very nice. ACB P.S. You will be pleased to know that I have got now my immigration visa card (___ Blue Card) ACB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 What is succession? The abbreviated definition of "initiation" is the admission of a neophyte disciple into the unadulterated philosophical and transcendental mysteries handed down by a succession of past Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya Acaryas. As Srila Prabhupada stated: "Well initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge... knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing." Srila Prabhupada Press Interview, 10-16-76, Chandigarh The past Acaryas have established the principle that a sincere candidate can be connected to the Sampradaya via the advanced siksa guru. In fact, one of the distinguishing common features of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and Srila Prabhupada is that both emphasized and reinforced the concept and principle of siksa guru being as important as diksa. "Thakura Bhaktivinoda was not official Spiritual Master of Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji Maharaja. Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji Maharaja was already renounced order, Paramahamsa, but Thakura Bhaktivinoda, while He was even playing the part of a householder, was treated by Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji Maharaja as Preceptor, on account of His highly elevated spiritual understanding, and thus He was always treating Him as His Spiritual Master. The Spiritual Master is divided into two parts; namely, siksa guru and diksa guru. So officially Bhaktivinoda Thakura was like siksa guru of Gaura Kisora das Babaji Maharaja." Srila Prabhupada Letter to Dayananda, 05-01-69: Over 100 years ago, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura challenged the religionists of his day, which he identified as Caste Goswamis, Smarta Brahmins, mundane intellectuals, western scholars, and even those purporting to be in direct disciplic succession to associates of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura introduced the relevance, significance and importance of the siksa guru as a bonafide initiator into our Sampradaya. His own brother, Lalita prasad, sided with the representatives of traditional diksa lines that traced their linage clear back to the Caitanya Lila. These "Goswami lineage" successions claimed that initiation through them was the only possible way to link to Lord Caitanya’s Sampradaya. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati dismissed this self-serving concept, stating that regardless of one's spiritual genealogy, the prerequisite qualifications for successfully linking up to the Sampradaya are achieved wholly and solely upon the genuine advancement in Krsna consciousness by contacting a genuine Sampradaya Acarya. As such, he included Jagannatha dasa Babaji and Gaura Kisora das Babaji as qualified members of the Sampradaya, and he excluded all the established diksa lines who traced themselves back to the Caitanya Mahaprabhu lila period Rocana dasa (ignore Beggar) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. But those persons in the line of siksa gurus coming through Srila Saraswati Thakur were all the direct disciples of someone, even if that guru was not a significant contributor to the line or was not in "the" diksa line as was the case of Srila Baladeva Viyabusana Thakur. It's not that the process of formal diksa is neglected, but rather we see that even Krsna and Mahaprabhu also had a formal relationship with a guru parampara. Yet clearly the line of thought or siddhanta overshadows (really over-illuminates) the consideration of formal diksa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. The traditional notion of formal diksa intiation dies hard. It is the cornerstone of religious Hinduism. I don't think any amount of pounding Prabhupada's unambiguous statement will work. There's just too much prestige to be squeezed from that ritual. (ignore religionist Beggar) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. The traditional notion of formal diksa intiation dies hard. It is the cornerstone of religious Hinduism. I don't think any amount of pounding Prabhupada's unambiguous statement will work. There's just too much prestige to be squeezed from that ritual. cbrahma thinks that Srila Prabhupada wanted to destroy the process of having a disciple receive the holy name from a guru, yet Srila Prabhupada chanted on tulasi japa malas for his initiates who were recommended after senior disciples (usually the TP) observed their behavior for six months (the Seventies). At the hare nama initiation ceremony the new initiates promised to chant at least 16 rounds and follow the 4 regulative principles Then after six months or a year the TP would recommend the disciple for diksa or second initiation. We all know the famous quote where Srila Prabhupada says that, at first initiation the disciple accepts the guru and at the second initiation, the guru accepts the disciple. We are personalists not impersonalists. When the devotee is accepted by the bonafide guru, it is supposed to form a deep bond. That bond is based on the feeling that at first, "I am like a soldout animal and I am the property of my guru", then later the feeling becomes so intense that the advanced disciple feels that, "gurudeva is mine". The silent chanting of the diksa mantras or gayatris are meant to nourish and hasten on this process of attachment to guru or asraya vigrah and Krsna, visaya vigrah. In cbrahma's world the so-called follower is left to imagine whether or not they are accepted by guru. Since such persons treat everyone with suspicion they consult no higher authority to see if their service is pleasing or not [to guru and Krsna]. So in essence such persons are their own guru and they have twisted Srila Prabhupada's words to attempt to genuinely destroy the real conception of guru tattva. They make their propaganda to try to dissuade the innocent from surrendering to a spiritual preceptor. The basis of their fallacious thinking is that they mistake transcendental knowledge for empiric knowledge, so on one level they are correct. Yes, cbrahma, if you want empiric knowledge of Krsna Consciousness like a professor of Comparative Religions then you only need "the books". yaha, bhagavata pada vaisnavera sthane ekanta asraya kara caitanya-carane, but if you want to understand the bhagavat books and achieve real bhakti or real Krsna Consciousness (anyabhilasita sunyam) they you must approach a self realized devotee with a straw between your teeth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Well either way, whoever is right or wrong in this argument that has been going on for years. There is just no question that Krishna is a pretty neat deal. Can't help but like him on some level even though I am in no way capable of meeting the standards required to maintain association with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Either way, there is just no getting around it. Wether Prabhupada was a hardcore living guru advocate or wether Prabhupada was a preceptorial guru advocate. He was an extraordinary person, I just cannot deny that even if he did get some scientific knowledge backwards or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 ... Wether Prabhupada was a hardcore living guru advocate or wether Prabhupada was a preceptorial guru advocate... He was both. Just like the color pink is made up of the colors red and white. The problem is that you have to mix them exactly the right way to come out with the correct color. This is what it means to harmonize. It's interesting that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur's fortnightly was called, The Harmonist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 He was both. Just like the color pink is made up of the colors red and white.The problem is that you have to mix them exactly the right way to come out with the correct color. This is what it means to harmonize. It's interesting that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur's fortnightly was called, The Harmonist. Interesting indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 He was both. Just like the color pink is made up of the colors red and white.The problem is that you have to mix them exactly the right way to come out with the correct color. This is what it means to harmonize. It's interesting that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur's fortnightly was called, The Harmonist. "The Harmonist" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted June 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Give up the search, for if ya find someone, it may well be from the senses that you make the decision. This guru tattwa process is the descending process, meaning that guru comes to the disciple upon the sincerity level. "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free". We never went to India, Srila Prabhupada came to the gutter of the Bowery in the winter, in poor health. This is a physical demonstration of how guru tattwa descends to the sincere person. Keep this in mind, become sincere by following the process of sadhana bhakti. In a way, the hippie revolution of the 60s began the process of sadhana bhakti in an offensive way without even knowing it. The hippies lost attraction to matter, wanting a love that was not based on material considerations. They lost attraction to dogs eating dogs, unbridled materialistic competition, etc. This may have led to Srila Prabhupadas journey descending into their realm with FURTHER instructions. Instruction comes from Supersoul, when these instructions are FOLLOWED, more instruction comes directly from guru without, the manifestation of Sesa Balarama, the Vaisnava Acarya. There is no climbing. The Guru will find you if you are where he is looking, below the starw in the street, because this is where authentic gurus reside, as servants of servants, yes, even the servant of his own disciplkes. Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa What a marvellous realization dear chaps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted June 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 The genuine guru does not make anyone his disciple. Rather, he makes everyone his guru by turning those who have no interest in Krishna into devotees. He tries to give Krishna pleasure by engaging everyone in his service. The guru's vision is that everything has importance; thus his every action is an act of devotion. The spiritual master sees the guru everywhere and everything related to Krishna. For him nothing is insignificant; nothing is seen as an object of the senses. He does not see this world as a mundane creation. The guru's work is a lot like that of a medical professor in the university: he is not making students, but doctors. Similarly, the guru is making other gurus. If the Vaishnavas do not play the role of spiritual master, then the transcendental family of Vaishnavas will dwindle and disappear. The problem is that as soon as one becomes guru, he ceases to be a Vaishnava. Therefore it is not proper to act as guru if one is not qualified. This means only inauspicious results for the disciple and falldown for the guru. The spiritual master does not identify himself as a guru, for his inner identification as a servant of God is too powerful. If the spiritual master thinks of himself as guru, then the first vowel of his name changes and he becomes goru-a cow. The genuine guru is engaged twenty-four hours a day in Lord Krishna's service. He acknowledges no duty other than serving Krishna. Thus the only person who is qualified to do the work of a guru is the devotee who is completely committed to his own spiritual master and has made service to him his life. One has to be devoted to the spiritual master in the same way one is devoted to Krishna. One should think of the spiritual master in the same way that one thinks of Krishna, for he is in no way less than or inferior to Krishna. It is the duty of a pious person to recognize the spiritual master as equal to Krishna and to worship him and serve him in that way. If one does not do so, then is destituted of his status as a disciple. Those who see the guru and Krishna as the same will be able to understand the essence of the scriptures. They alone will be able to chant the Holy Names and they alone will be able to speak on Krishna. Sri Krishna himself has descended in the form of the spiritual master in order to teach service to himself. Those on whom fortune smiles will be able to understand this spotless scriptural truth. If not, their doubting minds will plunge them into the ocean of samsara. The spiritual master is neither the ultimate object of devotion, viSaya-vigraha, nor the original reservoir of devotion, Azraya-vigraha. He is a manifestation or prakAza-vigraha of the original reservoir of devotion. Sri Krishna is the supreme object of all love, whereas the guru is the reservoir of divine love. Krishna is the predominating absolute, the bhoktA bhagavAn, while the guru is the predominated absolute, or sevaka-bhagavAn; he is God as worshiper or servant. Even though the spiritual master is the reservoir of love, he is Krishna himself; at the same time he is the most beloved of Krishna. This is the inconceivable paradox of guru tattva. Krishna is the complete omnipotent and the spiritual master is his complete potency. The spiritual master is not an ordinary living entity, he is master of all living entities. The spiritual master is the supreme consciousness, the plenary manifestation of the Lord's potency, his internal potency. We ordinary jivas on the other hand are atomic particles of consciousness, Krishna's marginal potency and separated parts. -- Here Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is clear who is the spiritual master exactly, no jiva soul can ever occupy the post of spiritual master: "The spiritual master is not an ordinary living entity, he is master of all living entities. The spiritual master is the supreme consciousness, the plenary manifestation of the Lord's potency, his internal potency. We ordinary jivas on the other hand are atomic particles of consciousness, Krishna's marginal potency and separated parts." Like a transformer just passes on the power from the Electric station, the Spiritual Master, who can be a jiva acting on the platform of Krishna (His representative), simply passes knowledge of Krishna to others unchanged, just like the transformer passes on electricity unchanged from its Power station source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 But those persons in the line of siksa gurus coming through Srila Saraswati Thakur were all the direct disciples of someone, even if that guru was not a significant contributor to the line or was not in "the" diksa line as was the case of Srila Baladeva Viyabusana Thakur. It's not that the process of formal diksa is neglected, but rather we see that even Krsna and Mahaprabhu also had a formal relationship with a guru parampara. Yet clearly the line of thought or siddhanta overshadows (really over-illuminates) the consideration of formal diksa. Way to sidestep the point Srila Prabhupada is making very plainly and clearly. Why can't you take this statement, "Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person ,"on it's face. directly, as it is stated? As soon as you said the "But" you started the smokescreen. This statement,Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person , means exactly what it says. Do you accept it on it's face yes or no Beggar? Please be very clear with a yes or no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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