The great historical debate and question, who is ones REAL Guru?

[theist]

One thing I want to add although it probably needn't be said is that one who has not received a formal initiation really has no business giving out formal initiations to others.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Sarva, may I ask who is your "living embodied guru"? According to you we can't understand Srila Prabhupada's books without one so I take it you must have one.

 

Yes, good point, I already have an initiating Spiritual Master but he is no longer embodied on this planet. Now if I was pure enough, sincere enough, advanced enough, I could understand everything in Prabhupada's Books by his grace because, as his disciple, he is always in my heart.

However, sometime things in this material world cloud the heart and I am unable to see Prabhupada in my own heart or Krishna in the hearts of ALL living entities.

I am not that advanced, so I need not only Book Bhagavata, but also devotee Bhagavata, and yes, the devotee Bhagavata is something I neglect and is probably why I am not advancing in Spiritual Life.

There are many worthy of being Guru and also an instructing Guru to me to help me understand correctly, what I am reading. Just like, we took the Temple Presidents instructions to Prabhupada, which by the way, was scripturally correct (prasadam can never be contaminated) yet Prabhupada told us. 'No, do not eat left over prasadam from the rubbish bins' Now to some it appears Prabhupada went against his own teachings, but no, he only refined what is in his books according to our own level of advancement so that we do not foolishly imitate an advanced devotee

It is sometimes necessary to find someone who is advanced to help in this way. Just like the origin of the jiva issue. That person Krsna Also sends if we are sincere.

Presently I am reading a BOOK, yes book called A transcendental Diary. At the Temple a few days ago, a young devotee discussed this Book with me as we honoured prasadam.

I told him I’d really like to meet the author of that Book.

Ironically the devotee said ‘Krishna is in the heart, he guides us to those who can give us Bhakti’ because service to a pure embodied devotee is what it is all about. WE only advance by associating with and serving the devotee.

[theist]

 

Yes, good point, I already have an initiating Spiritual Master but he is no longer embodied on this planet. Now if I was pure enough, sincere enough, advanced enough, I could understand everything in Prabhupada's Books by his grace because, as his disciple, he is always in my heart.

However, sometime things in this material world cloud the heart and I am unable to see Prabhupada ib my own heart or Krishna in the hearts of ALL living entities.

I am not that advanced, so I need not only Book Bhagavata, but also devotee Bhagavata, and yes, the devotee Bhagavata is something I neglect and is probably why I am not advancing in Spiritual Life.

There are many worthy of being Guru and also an instructing Guru to me to help me understand correctly, what I am reading. Just like, we took the Temple Presidents instructions to Prabhupada, which by the way, was scripturally correct (prasadam can never be contaminated) yet Prabhupada told us. 'No, do not eat left over prasadam from the rubbish bins' Now to some it appears Prabhupada went against his own teachings, but know, he refined was is in his books

It is sometimes necessary to find someone who is advanced to help in this way. Just like the origin of the jiva issue. That person Krsna Also sends if we are sincere.

Presently I am reading a BOOK, yes book called A transcendental Diary. At the Temple a few days ago, a young devotee discussed this Book with me as we honoured prasadam.

I told him I’d really like to meet the author of that Book.

Ironically the devotee said ‘Krishna is in the heart, he guides us to those who can give us Bhakti’ because service to a pure embodied devotee is what it is all about. WE only advance by associating with and serving the devotee.

 

I agree with what you say. But even when Srila Prabhupada was on the planet he was directing newer devotees to seek answer from more experienced devotees. Nothing has changed. And that relationship is a siksa relationship and it does not require any sanction from an ecclesiastical body. We all need help in understanding so many things and there is no prohibition from receiving that help from an embodies person who one may develop a formal guru disicple relationship with.

 

At the same time there is no need for such a situation if you are remembering the teachngs of Srila Prabhupada through his books and tapes. The understanding always comes from Caitya-guru. One should pray to the Lord in the heart everytime he opens a book. "O' Lord, please enlighten me as to the proper meaning of Your pure devotees teachings. Without Your grace I have no hope of understanding this transcendental subject matter."

 

Now Krishna may directly implant that understanding into us or He may give it to us through some devotee. And that devotee could be anyone not just the offical "gurus in good standing in Iskcon". He may not even be very pure himself. Siksa guru does not always mean perfectly realized.

 

Please do not have the idea that I am knee jerk against a teacher just because he is in a body. That would just be reactionary and foolish. I am just saying that guru's most potent association is with vani, transcendental sound vibration and that is not diminished by his leaving his body.

 

Additionally the idea of embodied guru is also mistaken in the case of a transcendentalist. A self realized spiritsoul is never embodied even when he appears to be to us. Such terms are just a limitation of our language. A soul who thinks he is embodied is also not really embodied except in the sense that he thinks he is. The chains that bind us are only made of make believe stuff and have no binding power beyond what what we think they have.

[Ashvatama]

 

Oh man. Who cares what Iskcon gurus accept or not.

 

Theist what do you think of this doco and how can devotees protect themselves from the same type of emotional and Psychological abuse

 

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2008/20080623_bcf/interviews.htm

[cbrahma]

The whole controversy as I understood it, was about the absolute need for an 'embodied' guru, not the desirability of Vaisnava association.

The two are entirely different. The more proper association, the better. The question is where is this available? There have been devotees who were left without association without it being the case that they were insincere. That is a huge condemnation, especially in Kali Yuga, where real Vaisnavas are as rare as blue diamonds.

[theist]

 

Theist what do you think of this doco and how can devotees protect themselves from the same type of emotional and Psychological abuse

 

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2008/20080623_bcf/interviews.htm

 

Not sure what you mean. There appears to be several documentaries there. Better to give me a synopsis please.

[Ashvatama]

 

Not sure what you mean. There appears to be several documentaries there. Better to give me a synopsis please.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=8 width=496 align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top></TD><TD vAlign=top>"The God of Broken Hearts"

Watch Chris Masters' report, first broadcast 23 June, 2008.

Length: 45'05"

[Windows Broadband] [Windows Dialup]

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

This is very good and exposes the naivity in us all

[Beggar]

 

The whole controversy as I understood it, was about the absolute need for an 'embodied' guru, not the desirability of Vaisnava association.

The two are entirely different. The more proper association, the better. The question is where is this available? There have been devotees who were left without association without it being the case that they were insincere. That is a huge condemnation, especially in Kali Yuga, where real Vaisnavas are as rare as blue diamonds.

What does it mean to have the association of real Vaisnavas, sadhu sanga? Look at the word - sadhu or the sanga or association of one or more who is sat - as in sat cit ananda. So sat would really mean one who is satswarupa. (an no, I'm not referring to you know who) Satswarupa means one who is situated in their eternal swarupa or form (identity). So if one comes across a Vaisnava who is situated in their swarupa then who would not want to take the association of such a person? And if one was not yet initiated into Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's line, what a great opportunity it would be to receive hare nama and diksa from such a Vaisnava. But then there is the relative consideration: What if that Vaisnava is at the beginning stage of the manifestation of his swarupa? Wouldn't he still be far beyond the realization of 99.999 % of "embodied" devotees? And how would we measure this since it is actually beyond our experience? Obviously we cannot, yet their must be some measuring stick. When John Lennon asked Srila Prabhupada how to determine who is a real guru, Prabhupada replied that the person who is most addicted to Krsna is a genuine guru.

Srila Prabhupada:

[LA TIMES INTERVIEW, excerpt from "Science of Self Realization"]

 

The genuine guru is God's representative, and he speaks about God and nothing else. The genuine guru is he who has no interest in materialistic life. He is after God, and God only. That is one of the tests of a genuine guru: brahma-nistham. He is absorbed in the Absolute Truth. In the Mundaka Upanisad it is stated, srotriyam brahma-nistham: [MU 1.2.12] "The genuine guru is well versed in the scriptures and Vedic knowledge, and he is completely dependent on Brahman." He should know what Brahman [spirit] is and how to become situated in Brahman. These signs are given in the Vedic literature.

Alfred Lord Tennyson:

 

 

'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.

 

As Srila Sridhar Maharaj said, "no risk, no gain." Vaisnavas are the most optimistic people when it comes to spirituality. Again I quote Srila Sridhar Maharaj:

 

 

Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Srimad-Bhagavatam have taught us what to beg for, what to pray for, what to want. They have taught us, "If you beg, beg for Krishna, not for anything else." So the fate of the Vaishnavas, the students of the Bhagavat and the followers of Mahaprabhu, is sealed in the search for Sri Krishna. We want nothing else but Krishna. The Vedas say srnvantu visve amrtasya putrah -- "O, you sons of nectar, sons of the nectarine ocean sea: please listen to me. You were born in nectar; you were born to taste nectar, and you must not allow yourselves to be satisfied by anything but nectar. So, however misguided you may be for the time being, awake! Arise! Search for that nectar, that satisfaction." The Vedas tell us, "Om!" Om means a big "Yes!What you are searching for -- that is! Don't be disappointed." The Vedas say that the object of our inner search exists. The common search of all your hearts is existing, and your thirst will be quenched. By your constitution you are meant for that and you deserve that, so don't be afraid; don't be cowed down. It is already given in your being. And you can never be satisfied with anything else.

So prepare your self, after your long search, to receive that long missing nectar in its full form and quality. Awake! Arise! Search for your fortune and you cannot but have that. It is your birthright. It is the wealth of your own soul. It cannot but be within you. You have no other business, no other engagement but krsnanusandhana, the Search for Sri Krishna -- Reality the Beautiful.

<hr>

[jijaji]

That Bhaktivinode Thakur's diska guru is not mentioned by Prabhupada speaks for itself and his taking Jaganatha das Babaji to be Bhaktivinode Thakur's spiritual master, shows irrefutably that formal diksa is NOT the condition for membership in the parampara.

No it does not at all, it only shows Prabupada accepted the Gaudiya Math version of all this and loyal to BSS version of things.

 

Do you think BVT lied about Bipin Behari being his Guru..?

[jijaji]

Gaudiya Math claims diksha mantras contain ' gayatri mantra', this is wrong. Sri Chaitanyas sampradaya never used any diksha mantras mixed with gayatri before GV...

 

Sri Chaitanya never received gayatri from Isvara Puri at Gaya...

[Beggar]

 

That Bhaktivinode Thakur's diska guru is not mentioned by Prabhupada speaks for itself and his taking Jaganatha das Babaji to be Bhaktivinode Thakur's spiritual master, shows irrefutably that formal diksa is NOT the condition for membership in the parampara.

No it does not at all, it only shows Prabupada accepted the Gaudiya Math version of all this and loyal to BSS version of things.

 

Do you think BVT lied about Bipin Behari being his Guru..?

 

According to Srila Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada's guru bhai, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur never rejected Vipin Vihari Prabhu, its just that duing his his later years he became more attached to Srila Jagannatha das Babaji and his conception of Krsna bhakti.

[cbrahma]

 

That Bhaktivinode Thakur's diska guru is not mentioned by Prabhupada speaks for itself and his taking Jaganatha das Babaji to be Bhaktivinode Thakur's spiritual master, shows irrefutably that formal diksa is NOT the condition for membership in the parampara.

 

No it does not at all, it only shows Prabupada accepted the Gaudiya Math version of all this and loyal to BSS version of things.

 

Do you think BVT lied about Bipin Behari being his Guru..?

Obviously, it proves that the succession at least going backwards to Bhaktivinode were defining their membership to the parampara in this way.

 

 

Bhaktivinode writes: "The initiating spiritual master (diksa-guru) shows his cause-less mercy by giving his disciples instructions in chanting the mantra. By so doing, he points the disciples in the direction of the truths pertaining to the Supreme Lord, Sri Krsna. I consider the numerous instructing spiritual masters (siksa-gurus) to be more important, for they show more mercy by training the sadhakas in all the essential aspects of sadhana-bhakti." (Kalyana-kalpataru)

 

[cbrahma]

 

Gaudiya Math claims diksha mantras contain ' gayatri mantra', this is wrong. Sri Chaitanyas sampradaya never used any diksha mantras mixed with gayatri before GV...

 

Sri Chaitanya never received gayatri from Isvara Puri at Gaya...

We are told that the 'real' diksa is initiation into gayatri , which is termed the 'brahminical' initiation. What mantra would it be if not gayatri?

[Beggar]

 

We are told that the 'real' diksa is initiation into gayatri , which is termed the 'brahminical' initiation. What mantra would it be if not gayatri?

 

Including the first mantra, the brahma gayatri - om bhur buvah..., seven mantras are there. The sixth one is klim krsnaya govindaya..., also referred to as the Gopal mantra. It would be that mantra.

[jijaji]

 

We are told that the 'real' diksa is initiation into gayatri , which is termed the 'brahminical' initiation. What mantra would it be if not gayatri?

 

Try Gopal mantra for starters (which is what Sri Chaitanys got from Isvara Puri, not gayatri at all) that has been given in the Gaudiya Sampradaya for over 400 years prior to this inovation by Gaudiya Math.

 

There was never such a thing as 'brahminical' initiation in Gaudiya Vaishnavism before Gaudiya Math...NEVER

 

Study the history

 

[cbrahma]

 

Try Gopal mantra for starters (which is what Sri Chaitanys got from Isvara Puri, not gayatri at all) that has been given in the Gaudiya Sampradaya for over 400 years prior to this inovation by Gaudiya Math.

 

There was never such a thing as 'brahminical' initiation in Gaudiya Vaishnavism before Gaudiya Math...NEVER

 

Study the history

 

The abrupt disconnect between GM and traditional Vaishnavism is as deceptive as the current disconnect between the GM and ISKCON.

It unfortunately reflects badly on Vaisnavism in general. making it looks like a hotbed of infighting and religious hyprocrisy.

[bhaktajan]

Hey Everybody?

 

Do you all start your japa-mala chanting with the following:

 

 

çré-kåñëa-caitanya

prabhu-nityänanda

çré-advaita gadädhara

çréväsädi-gaura-bhakta-vånda

 

 

 

Well, if you all do--then welcome to the International Society for Krishna Conscousness.

 

Sorry to interupt your ferver--just thinking aloud.

 

[theist]

My uneducated speculation on the matter is that Bhaktisiddhanta was acting in response to the society he was in which respected brahmana threads and sannyasi staffs and in an attempt to make vaisnavism more respected and to rescue it from the unscrupluous he merged GV with some of these religious traditions. I heard that and it made sense to me although I could be way off base.

 

I also believe such a system is not workable in the west and causes more confusion then anything else. If not scrapped it should be deempasized in my opinion under the same principle in which it began, time place and circumstance.

 

If anything today's jet set, over weight, wealthy property owning "sanyasis" only make a mockery of the renounced order. It is having a reverse effect from Bhaktisiddhanta's original intent.

[cbrahma]

 

I also believe such a system is not workable in the west and causes more confusion then anything else. If not scrapped it should be deempasized in my opinion under the same principle in which it began time place and circumstance.

 

If anything today's jet set, over weight, wealthy property owning "sanyasis" only make a mockery of the renounced order. It is having a reverse effect from Bhaktisiddhanta's original intent.

 

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

 

I totally agree. But the whole guru system depends on this hierarchy of varna and ashrama. To remove it means to dismantle the diksa guru cadre.

[theist]

 

I totally agree. But the whole guru system depends on this hierarchy of varna and ashrama. To remove it means to dismantle the diksa guru cadre.

Not at all cbrahma. Guru is dependent only on Krsna. And the reality is we are all dependent on guru past and present from ord Bahma on down or we would never know enough to even talk of God let alone get back to Him.

 

If one wants to engage in temple Deity worship he should still have to develop him or herself as a brahmana and that should be accompanied by a diksa ceremony because temple deity worship is a public affair and needs proper structure. Problem is now it is being over sold as THE connection to the parampara which it is not.

 

Those who want to keep the old traditions should do so, including dhoti and sikha. No problem but everything has to be seen in proper perspective. The honey jar is not the honey.

 

Internal diksa will still occur also as tht is the hands of Krishna and His transcendental system. We just have to quit covering it over by confusing it with pomp and circumstance and ecclesiastical rubber stamping.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

Sri-krsna-caitanya

prabhu-nityananda

Sri-advaita gadadhara

Srivasadi-gaura-bhakta-vrinda

 

[Beggar]

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur wanted to give the idea to the religious Indian public that a Vaisnava is higher than a brahmana. Thiis is why he gave the sacred thread to diksa initiates. Previously Vaisnava's who were born brahmanas would take off their thread at the time of Vaisnava diksa.

[theist]

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur wanted to give the idea to the religious Indian public that a Vaisnava is higher than a brahmana. Thiis is why he gave the sacred thread to diksa initiates. Previously Vaisnava's who were born brahmanas would take off their thead at the time of Vaisnava diksa.

 

I didn't know that. thanks. How would they handle Temple Deity worship?

[stonehearted]

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur wanted to give the idea to the religious Indian public that a Vaisnava is higher than a brahmana. Thiis is why he gave the sacred thread to diksa initiates. Previously Vaisnava's who were born brahmanas would take off their thead at the time of Vaisnava diksa.

I'm curious: what evidence do we have for this, especially as a universal statement. This may have been the case in some instances, but the jati-gosais didn't. I know that when brahmana Gaudiyas took vesa (which, until Srila Sarasvati Thakura, meant babaji vesa), they removed their sacred threads, but I think brahmanas who took diksa from other brahmana Gaudiya vaishnavas kept their sacred threads. Does anyone have some evidence either way?

[Beggar]

 

I didn't know that. thanks. How would they handle Temple Deity worship?

Srila Sanatana Goswami was born brahmana but lost that status by being in the employ of the Muslim king. Later in Vraja he had a diety and would put him in a tree and feed him a baked wheat ball without even salt. We all know the story how the diety of Krsna complained about this by talking directly to Srila Sanatana Goswamipada. This iillustrates that there is not much of a brahminical standard in raganuga bhakti diety worship.

 

 

I'm curious: what evidence do we have for this, especially as a universal statement. This may have been the case in some instances, but the jati-gosais didn't. I know that when brahmana Gaudiyas took vesa (which, until Srila Sarasvati Thakura, meant babaji vesa), they removed their sacred threads, but I think brahmanas who took diksa from other brahmana Gaudiya vaishnavas kept their sacred threads. Does anyone have some evidence either way?

 

I don't know so much detail. Maybe you are correct and it applies to babaji vesa?