The great historical debate and question, who is ones REAL Guru?

[theist]

 

Srila Sanatana Goswami was born brahmana but lost that status by being in the employ of the Muslim king. Later in Vraja he had a diety and would put him in a tree and feed him a baked wheat ball without even salt. We all know the story how the diety of Krsna complained about this by talking directly to Srila Sanatana Goswamipada. This iillustrates that there is not much of a brahminical standard in raganuga bhakti diety worship.

 

 

 

Yes but that was his personal Deity. I am speaking about Temple Deity worship. It seems that just dispensing with formal diksa might be too whimsical. I wonder what Bhaktisiddhanta died concerning that. Perhaps even in the temple setting it is not so important as I am making it out to be.

[Sarva gattah]

This thread has become quite interesting, thanks for all of your glorious association. It’s a new era now in history and not only can we associate with each other via the Internet, we can also HEAR Prabhupada's chanting and lectures direct from him as if his body was still here. Technology changes everything

[Beggar]

 

I didn't know that. thanks. How would they handle Temple Deity worship?

I really don't know. Maybe they had Vaisnava brahmanas who also handled that. Anyway I don't think that the babajis of the 19th century had maths where so much formal worship took place although I'm not sure.

[theist]

 

I really don't know. Maybe they had Vaisnava brahmanas who also handled that. Anyway I don't think that the babajis of the 19th century had maths where so much formal worship took place although I'm not sure.

 

Babaji's surely didn't but I wasn't thinking of them. Temple Deity worship is there more those of us who have no rati for the Holy Name mostly. Even though that takes in about everyone in the world I have never been that attracted to taking care of Deities. My initial brief stay in a temple was before Deities and we worship a large picture of the panca tattva. The emphasis was on street chanting even if we had to lock the temple while we were downtown in the day. Now my local temple stays in the temple during the day and locks the doors "to protect the Deities".

 

In these two scenarios I would think it better to chant before a large picture of pancha tattva and go on sankirtan without fear of offending the Deities then to cloase the temple off from the public and worship Radha/Krishna Deities.

[Bhaktiasitis]

<TABLE cellSpacing=10 cellPadding=20 width=750 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle bgColor=#e4efef>“ISKCON” Gurus, Initiations, and Party Men

 

By Kailasa Candra dasa

</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#e4efef>“. . . do not try to initiate. You are not in a proper position now to initiate anyone. . . Don't be allured by such maya. . . Don't be allured by cheap disciples. Go on steadfastly to render service first.

 

If you immediately become guru, then the service activities will be stopped; and as there are many cheap gurus and cheap disciples, without any substantial knowledge, and manufacturing new sampradayas, and with service activities stopped, and all spiritual progress choked up.”

 

Letter to Acyutananda/Jaya Govinda on Aug. 21, 1968 from Montreal (emphasis added)

 

Secretary: What about the so-called gurus that take a little bit here, a little bit there?

 

Prabhupada: So-called gurus, they are so-called gurus. They are not gurus.

That is already explained. If one does not speak what Krishna speaks, he is not guru. If you accept so-called guru, that is your misfortune. What can be done?

 

Secretary: Some of them will say some things that Krishna says, but they'll take from other places also. What is the position of such persons?

 

Prabhupada: He's most dangerous. He's most dangerous. He is opportunist.

He's finding out customer, something here... According to the customer he is giving something, as the customers will be pleased.

 

Answers to Questionnaire Room Conversation on June 28, 1976 (emphasis added)

 

 

 

 

vidyam cavidyam ca yas

tad vedobhayam saha

avidyaya mrtyum tirtva

vidyayamrtam asnute

 

 

 

 

 

“Only one who can learn the process of nescience and that of transcendental knowledge side by side can transcend the influence of repeated birth and death and enjoy the full blessings of immortality.”Sri Isopanisad Mantra 11 (emphasis added)

 

 

 

 

During the final years of the preaching activities of His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaj Prabhupada Thakura, who was both shaktyavesh-avatar and Sampradaya-Acharya, one of his favorite initiated disciples was Professor Sanyal, a learned intellectual and an accomplished writer. Even during his manifest lila, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Gosvami Prabhupada--who was and remains a direct associate of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu (along with his illustrious father, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)--approved of Professor Sanyal’s book.

 

 

 

 

This book, entitled Krishna Chaitanya, was entirely bona fide according to the Sampradaya Acharya. I once possessed it, but the mahant of the Radha-Raman temple, Visvambhara Gosvami, asked me in Vrindavan to give it to him in 1984. I acquiesced to the request. His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the most recent Sampradaya-Acharya and our initiating spiritual master, allowed that this book be consulted and read by his disciples, along with Bon Maharaj's Bhaktirasamritasindhu.

 

 

 

 

I had the actual quote (referenced below) by Prabhupada about Professor Sanyal, and it was used in my preaching in 1980, specifically at the beginning of a manuscript I co-authored back then entitled In The Measure of Our Conviction.

 

 

 

 

The quote is not to be found in any later edition of the Bhaktivedanta Vedabase; perhaps, it has never been included in any ISKCON databases. If so, that is a shame. The quote is very important and should not be lost in the oblivion of time.

 

 

 

 

Now, I am going to share with you this quote from Srila Prabhupada as per my personal memory; what is written in bold italics is exact. The gist of the entire quote, as per its follow-up paragraph, is accurate and in context. Srila Prabhupada did not at all approve of this Professor Sanyal after the final day of 1936 (the disappearance of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta), neither did Srila Prabhupada approve of any of Professor Sanyal's writings after that time.

 

 

 

 

"Professor Sanyal, he was a very nice man. But he was a Party Man . . . “

That statement has been attributed to Srila Prabhupada. I do not exactly remember the wording of the rest of the quote, but I do remember what it meant and indicated. It indicated that, due to his having become a Party Man, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati arranged to have Professor Sanyal leave the scene very quickly.

 

 

 

 

A recent posting on the INTERNET, by someone who apparently has researched Professor Sanyal, states that he died a natural death. If you have access to the exact quote, send it our way; we shall recognize it immediately and post it.

 

 

 

 

Apparently, Professor Sanyal joined the Party of Ananta Vasudeva (later called Puri Maharaj), as opposed to the Bagh Bazaar Party of Tirtha Maharaj. As such, his writings, after the disappearance of his Guru Maharaj, backed that (Vasudeva’s) party line.

 

 

 

 

In the “ISKCON” movement a different course was followed, although there were parallels. Instead of declaring one mahabhagavat, it was declared by the “GBC” (just as falsely) that there were eleven of them. Of course, Ananta Vasudeva was a very learned scholar in the Vaishnava siddhanta, unlike the eleven Zonal Acharyas of the post-modern era. Still, despite his erudition and previous approval from the Acharya, Srila Prabhupada did not condone the writings of this Professor Sanyal after the disappearance of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura.

 

 

 

 

The most important thing to consider is that Srila Prabhupada did not approve of Party Men. He in effect condemned this kind of functionary. Currently, the original ISKCON movement is covered by the "ISKCON" sheath, just as our original mind, intelligence, and ego is covered by the material ego (ahankara), material intelligence, and material mind.

 

 

 

 

The "ISKCON" movement is dominated by Party Men, and this has been the case since the late Seventies. The Party Men cooperated with the Zonals (of course, the Zonals themselves were all Party Men) and helped to empower them. The Party Man faction is a multi-faceted dynamic, composed of fanatics, sycophants, henchmen, and temple officers. It always has been.

 

 

 

 

There is Krishna Consciousness and then there is a perverted reflection of Krishna Consciousness. The Party Men of “ISKCON” represent, at best, only a reflection of Krishna Consciousness. The dynamic of the Party Man is found in what he thinks constitutes the recognition, approval, and blessings of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

 

 

 

Party Men measure these ideals in terms of their position in the corporate structure of their institution. As long as they remain a somebody like a Temple President or a “GBC”—and as long as there is adequate revenue flow to continue in their status and with their project—then whatever they are doing or saying is considered spiritual by them. Krishna Consciousness means to see as Lord Krishna sees, to see as the Chaitya-guru or Paramatma sees. To become Krishna Conscious means to see the Party Men for what they really are.

 

 

 

 

The Party Men shift with the ever-changing winds of corporate doctrine. They are "GBC" loyalists. The "ISKCON" movement is completely under the control of the "GBC." Unlike ISKCON, however, the real GBC no longer exists—and, as far as that goes, it never did function in a bona fide way for a great deal of time even while Srila Prabhupada was still with us. The devolution of this governing body has been long in duration, the offenses have been very great, and the GBC has been ruined, permanently warped and perverted into the "GBC."

 

 

 

 

The Party Man is a particularly nasty piece of work. He sometimes comes in the form of a sannyasi. He is often completely without genuine conscience. His intelligence always works to ponder the Party Line and the current momentum; he always wants to make sure that he will be on the side that is winning. His shibboleth is: "'ISKCON'--with all thy faults--I still love thee!" He backs the current transformation, and we are now in the Second Transformation

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[theist]

Yes, the Real and the Apparant. Maya's job is to always create and manifest a false representation of any manifestation of the Absolute Truth. There must always be a Paundraka with his paper mache extra arms pretending to be Visnu. It is simply the nature of this mirage like material world.

 

This is why in our search for guru and proper teaching we must begin with and maintain our focus on Caitya guru for even though we may not be able to hear Him clearly He hears us as our innermost desires and will fulfill those desires especially of someone trying to find HIM. It's a guaruntee that we can be sure of. He will protect us from the evil Party Men aka boogeymen aka Tan Tan Makut

[cbrahma]

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=10 cellPadding=20 width=750 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle bgColor=#e4efef>“ISKCON” Gurus, Initiations, and Party Men

 

By Kailasa Candra dasa

 

 

</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#e4efef>

 

During the final years of the preaching activities of His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaj Prabhupada Thakura, who was both shaktyavesh-avatar and Sampradaya-Acharya, one of his favorite initiated disciples was Professor Sanyal, a learned intellectual and an accomplished writer. Even during his manifest lila, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Gosvami Prabhupada--who was and remains a direct associate of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu (along with his illustrious father, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)--approved of Professor Sanyal’s book.

 

 

 

 

 

This book, entitled Krishna Chaitanya, was entirely bona fide according to the Sampradaya Acharya. I once possessed it, but the mahant of the Radha-Raman temple, Visvambhara Gosvami, asked me in Vrindavan to give it to him in 1984. I acquiesced to the request. His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the most recent Sampradaya-Acharya and our initiating spiritual master, allowed that this book be consulted and read by his disciples, along with Bon Maharaj's Bhaktirasamritasindhu.

 

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

The use of the term Sampradaya-Acarya is here used in the same way as Rocana dasa used it in the thread that I started on the subject.

[theist]

That may only mean Krsna Chandra das reads Rocana also.

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Who is our real Guru?

The real guru is inside- in the head of all beings- in the Gurumandala just above ajna chakra.

 

The gurus that we find outside are the ones whose gurumandala is active. Without this guru-centre in side one-self active no one can be a genune guru. Once the inner guru is activated the need and role of an external guru comes to an end as spiritual lessions and knowledge spontaniously springs from this inner guru-centre.

 

K.Ravindran

[krsna]

 

 

 

 

Get Intiated By A Real ISKCON Diksa Guru And Be Happy!

 

[cbrahma]

 

That may only mean Krsna Chandra das reads Rocana also.

Well since he doesn't own the reference, that would seriously damage his credibility, don't you think?

[cbrahma]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Get Intiated By A Real ISKCON Diksa Guru And Be Happy!

 

 

Show me some 'real' ones - and I'll think about it.

[cbrahma]

 

Who is our real Guru?

The real guru is inside- in the head of all beings- in the Gurumandala just above ajna chakra.

 

The gurus that we find outside are the ones whose gurumandala is active. Without this guru-centre in side one-self active no one can be a genune guru. Once the inner guru is activated the need and role of an external guru comes to an end as spiritual lessions and knowledge spontaniously springs from this inner guru-centre.

 

K.Ravindran

Do you have shastric support for this? This is not a challenge. I'm just interested. Guru is one.

[bija]

This actual part of the brain contains DMT. DMT is one of the most powerful entheogens known to man, that is in plants and yes the third eye part of the brain.

 

Science thinks DMT is involved with brain states such as NDE and mystical encounter. DMT has been used in plant form in many cultures, especially indigenous of South America. Some call it Santo Daime (saint give me). The experience is a teacher...a teacher who gives what we need to know to grow.

 

When the fetus is first developing in the womb, this part of the brain activates. Some scientists seem to think this is the fetus' first trauma. Like the Bhagavatam says of the fetus' suffering in the womb. As the fetus develops this tissue is initially in the upper palate of the forming mouth, and slowly as the fetus matures the tissue (containing DMT) moves to the position of the third eye.

 

Guru can peel back the layers for us. To show us what we really are...then the spiritualists (or shamans) become healers...once they have done their own work.

 

Nice coincidence of the wonder teacher...which is built in every human. Believe it or not, God has created nature as perfect as this.

 

It is not necessary to take substances for the DMT to activate. Cultures throughtout history have developed many rituals, dance, song, mantra, ritual, etc which seem to activate self knowledge and then healing (wholeness and integration). Trance states or non-ordinary states of consciousness. Some say these transpersonal states are more real than our day to day ordinary conscious awareness.

 

Infact science is studying DMT now, after many years of prohibition, and hoping to make psychiatric drugs....so people can awaken and self actualize. Modern day soma! Definately not a tranquilizer!

 

Some radical thinkers are of the opinion, if man does not rediscover his original connection to his environment, that the environment will diminish and degrade.

 

So maybe ritual is not such a taboo cbrahma...but a catalyst to higher awareness and knowledge. The great healer.

 

This knowledge of various psychotropics, was in some cultures was kept secret, a secret for the initiated. A personal encounter. A way to re-awaken to wholeness. A way to move toward that Wholeness.

 

 

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the road to eleusis - unveiling the secrets of the mysteries - Upload a Document to Scribd

 

Read this document on Scribd: the road to eleusis - unveiling the secrets of the mysteries

[cbrahma]

I'm not categorically opposed to ritual. But to believe the power is in the ritual is being a magician as opposed to a spiritual practioner.

[theist]

 

Well since he doesn't own the reference, that would seriously damage his credibility, don't you think?

 

Why? I don't even know this person. I have no opinion on his credibility or the term for that matter.

[cbrahma]

 

Why? I don't even know this person. I have no opinion on his credibility or the term for that matter.

 

Here is a reference from Rocana's site. Rocana certainly seems to know him.

Considering this devotee is an independant thinker criticizing the ISKCON's guru policies, his endorsment of the Sampradaya acarya has a lot of credibility, and not just parroting what he read.

 

Most of the intellectuals who formed the inner circle of this cell were unceremoniously excommunicated from ISKCON for publicly voicing their subversive ideas. To the best of my knowledge, the membership included Pradyumna dasa, Jadurani devi dasi, Kailasa candra dasa, and Yasoda nandanana dasa. This school of radical thought wrote, printed and circulated many confrontational tracts in the early days, with limited results. Initially, they did not try to promote the return of the Rtvik process, but rather focused on the advanced spiritual qualifications required to become a bonafide diksa guru

[stonehearted]

You may have Krsna Candra confused with Kailasa Candra. I don't think they're the same person. Kailasa Candra doesn't hang out on forums such as this one, as far as I know. He does his own thing in his own arena.

[cbrahma]

 

You may have Krsna Candra confused with Kailasa Candra. I don't think they're the same person. Kailasa Candra doesn't hang out on forums such as this one, as far as I know. He does his own thing in his own arena.

Who said anything about forums?

http://therealexplanation.org/article/CHEAP_GURUS10.html

[stonehearted]

I thought the context was this:

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by theist

That may only mean Krsna Chandra das reads Rocana also.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Well since he doesn't own the reference, that would seriously damage his credibility, don't you think?

If I'm mistaken, pardon me for intruding.

[suchandra]

 

 

 

 

Get Intiated By A Real ISKCON Diksa Guru And Be Happy!

 

In the Krsna book chapter 78, Srila Prabhupada says that the sages said this to Lord Balarama: "Dear Lord Yadunandana, we may inform You that we brahmanas posted Romaharsana Suta on that exalted position for the duration of this great sacrifice. He was seated on the Vyasasana by our election."

 

This is how it works. An Acharya can be elected by the brahmanas and given the Vyasasana, the seat of Vyasa. Yet if the Guru deviates from dharma then he will suffer for that. He may even be killed by God.

 

According to Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.22-23 all the Puranas and histories that we have were passed on by Romaharshana Suta to his disciples. Srila Vyasadeva was his Guru. Srila Suta Goswami, the speaker of Srimad Bhagavatam, was his disciple. Romaharshana committed an offense, Romaharshana is not mentioned in the parampara, but he was the Guru of Suta Goswami and there is no mention in the scriptures that Suta Goswami took initiation from a new Guru after his Guru was killed. Who is ones real Guru? In case above, someone who was elected.

[theist]

I would say that Suta Gosvami's real guru was Sukadeva Gosvami because that is who he heard from and the knowledge he gained he passed on.

"Real" guru to me does not imply official intiation but rather who has impressed transcendental knowlege upon your mind and brought about your enlightenment by virtue of those impressions.

 

Impressions. Srila Prabhupada said his initiation from Bhaktisiddhanta came at their first meeting when SBS impressed upon him the need to preach Mahaprabhu's message in the West.

 

To consider Sukadeva Gosvami as Suta Gosvami's only guru would be absurd as he surely learned from many throughout his life. But who was the most influential or made the largest transcendental impression upon him?

[krsna]

 

 

Krishna's Miracle

 

 

 

 

 

"Yes, from the very beginning I went to New York because I thought that Krishna Consciousness is the most important idea in the world, so let me go to that place, New York, which is the most important city in the world, and if I am able to do anything for Krishna and my Spiritual Master, even I am at the fag-end of my life, at least let me try for it there.

 

 

 

 

So my dreams have all come true, and all of you nice boys and girls are getting the credit. When I was alone in your New York, I was thinking, who will listen to me in this horrible, sinful place? All right, I shall stay little longer, at least I can distribute a few of my books, that is something.

But Krishna was all along preparing something I could not see, and He brought you to me one by one, sincere American boys and girls, to be trained-up for doing the work of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Now I can see that it is a miracle.

Otherwise, your city of New York, one single old man, with only a few books to sell for barely getting eatables, how he can survive, what to speak of introducing God-consciousness movement for saving the humankind? That is Krishna's miracle. Now I can see it."

(Srila Prabhupada letter, December 23, 1972)

 

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

You couldn’t get a place further away from the rest of the world than down under Melbourne Australia. There is a story of one young 17 year old boy who never went looking for never Prabhupada' date=' [b']Prabhupada came all the way down there to Melbourne and found him.

 

We ALL need the personal 'embodied touch of a Guru' as well, simply for the purpose of helping us with their personal association and instructions.

Krsna is in the heart that we must NEVER forget.

 

God’s representative will come to us in the embodied form if we want, if we pray unconditionally, if we learn to have faith in Krsna in the heart. We do not have to look for Guru, he wiil find us.

 

Why not? Krsna is standing always right in front of us. He is in our hearts?”

[cbrahma]

 

He has found us. His name is Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada.