the minimum that isn't

[cbrahma]

One problem I have with the so-called sadhana, at least how it's taught in ISCON - is the claim that the 'minimum' sadhana is chanting 16 rounds and following the four regulative principles.

But nobody accepts that really - it's just what is publicized.

You find out after accepting that sadhana that you have to not eat bhoga, which means you either have to eat food prepared and offered by a devotee or do it yourself. That is not as simple as it sounds, if you lead a life in the working world.

Then there's the whole issue about ghostyanandi and bhajananandi, preaching over chanting.

That is time and money expense right there, since in ISKCON at least, it means selling (and therefore buying) books.

Over and above that we have the initiation pressure - etc....

 

So there is no mininum sadhana. Even though sadhana implies regularity, there isn't one that seems acceptable other than full second intiation preacher who chants all his/her rounds. of course, being in that state of life pretty much precludes very much else (like making a living in the working world).

[krsna]

 

 

Money, is it the root of all evil and no real sadhana?

 

 

 

Money, get away

Get a good job with more pay and you're okay.

 

Money it's a gas

Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash.

 

New car, caviar, four star daydream,

Think I'll buy me a football team.

Money get back

I'm alright Jack keep your hands off my stack.

 

Money it's a hit

Don't give me that do goody good b**@~!%t

 

I'm in the hi-fidelity first class travelling set

And I think I need a Lear jet.

Money it's a crime

Share it fairly but don't take a slice of my pie.

 

Money so they say

Is the root of all evil today.

 

But if you ask for a raise it's no surprise that they're

giving none away.

 

Artist (Band):Pink Floyd

[cbrahma]

"Money is the honey" - (Prabhupada)

[bhaktajan]

Grasshopper,

 

Just do the Weekend-warrior routine:

 

Just show up once a month [or for a given Festival Day and/or an Ekadasi day].

 

This is why we all HAD to join when we were young --because other "occupational duties/obligations" would have us dedicate our energies toward divergent activities.

 

But isn't that why one would go to an ashram setting for "retreats" --so that one's consciousness would be dovetailed in spiritual revelry for the duration of the time after the "pilgramage".

 

Re-charge your taste for nectar at the temple--then leave the temple and return the the greater-world outside to carry the (sanatana) dharma within your heart.

 

"Just do it!" -- and keep the change.

[theist]

Prabupada's temple program was perfect. When I joined every minute was engagement. I lasted about six months and then couldn't handled the tightly regulated life anymore. It was too austere for me. But I have always known that if I had had the proper mind set for bhakti-sadhana then I could have made wonderful advancement in this life.

 

The reality is I was just too much a hippie. Nevertheless those 5 or 6 months were far more than a blown oppurtunity. Even though I was attracted out of sentiment and didn't really understand what was going on and couldn't hang with it there is no loss or diminution and that little advancement will protect from the greatest of fearful things.

 

I had no business living in one of your temples Srila Prabhupada but you allowed me entrance anyway. Thank You for your grace.

 

Best to just be thankful for what we have all gained by coming in contact with the Krishna consciousness movement of Lord Caitanya.

[suchandra]

 

One problem I have with the so-called sadhana, at least how it's taught in ISCON - is the claim that the 'minimum' sadhana is chanting 16 rounds and following the four regulative principles.

But nobody accepts that really - it's just what is publicized.

You find out after accepting that sadhana that you have to not eat bhoga, which means you either have to eat food prepared and offered by a devotee or do it yourself. That is not as simple as it sounds, if you lead a life in the working world.

Then there's the whole issue about ghostyanandi and bhajananandi, preaching over chanting.

That is time and money expense right there, since in ISKCON at least, it means selling (and therefore buying) books.

Over and above that we have the initiation pressure - etc....

 

So there is no mininum sadhana. Even though sadhana implies regularity, there isn't one that seems acceptable other than full second intiation preacher who chants all his/her rounds. of course, being in that state of life pretty much precludes very much else (like making a living in the working world).

Prabhupada surely saw a big difference of living in the temple, living a monastic life-style, or living outside since he himself didn't live within a GM temple. Although his godbrothers tried for years to make him join and live in the temple, he considered to become a successful pharmaceutical manufacturer and when getting rich use that money for efficient spiritual projects. He used to repeatedly regret how the confectioner shops were disappearing in India and instead tea shops opened, what says that he considered that people buy Kacuris, Samosas, Hot jalebis, Laddhus etc. He says his father Gour Mohan De (1849-1930) was a Vaishnava but he also says that his father used to rise around 7-8, late. Any ISKCON devotee living within the temple and rising so late would be told to live outside. That chanting on beads is difficult - so many Christians chant their rosary.

Practising bhakti-yoga outside an institution is rather to find a means for one's own individual situation and stick to this or gradually expand when things get more favorable.

 

Prabhupada: Yes, up to one o’clock, two o’clock, he was engaged only with his puja, my father. He was going late, at twelve o’clock, to bed. Then he was to… He used to rise little late, at about seven, eight. Then taking bath, sometimes purchasing. Then from ten o’clock to one o’clock he was engaged in puja. Then he would take his lunch and go to business. And in the business shop he was taking little rest for one hour. And he’d come from business at ten o’clock at night, and then again puja. Regularly. Actually his business was puja. For livelihood he was…

 

Room Conversation

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

February 18, 1977, Mayapura

 

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/770218r4.may.htm

[bija]

 

Best to just be thankful for what we have all gained by coming in contact with the Krishna consciousness movement of Lord Caitanya. posted by theist

 

Thank you Theist.

[cbrahma]

hmmmm. I didn't start out thinking it was about living in the temple, but I guess that's what is amounts to.Temple life is ok if you're in your twenties, thirties, maybe even forty. After that, the stress is way too much. Most presidents want to see productivity , money coming in etc...

It's really sad to see how many older devotees have been disenfranchised, even kicked out.

There is no retirement program - other than hitting the street. It's cold-blooded and scary. If you've spent most of your life in a temple without building a job resume, or retirement fund, you're basically homeless. Like I say, it's cold-blooded. I thank my lucky stars I didn't stay.

[stonehearted]

 

Best to just be thankful for what we have all gained by coming in contact with the Krishna consciousness movement of Lord Caitanya.

 

Thanks, theist, for your eloquent response. There's a Bengali saying that Srila Krishna das Kaviraj quotes in the first chapter of Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita: mitam ca saram ca vaco hi vagmita. Real eloquence means to say what's essential concisely.

 

The "minimum standard" is a little like the dealer's initial ploy: the first one's free. The fact is that Bhakti, being a person, is alive, dyanamic, not static. Once you let her in the door, she eventually takes over your life. Nice, eh?

[cbrahma]

 

Thanks, theist, for your eloquent response. There's a Bengali saying that Srila Krishna das Kaviraj quotes in the first chapter of Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita: mitam ca saram ca vaco hi vagmita. Real eloquence means to say what's essential concisely.

 

The "minimum standard" is a little like the dealer's initial ploy: the first one's free. The fact is that Bhakti, being a person, is alive, dyanamic, not static. Once you let her in the door, she eventually takes over your life. Nice, eh?

One has to be practical, live in a normal state of life. It's not about the 'taking over' so that practical living becomes impossible and I never believed it was about living in the temple. Beyond the sixteen rounds and the four regs, everything becomes impractical.

[cbrahma]

 

“The austerity in our Gaudiya-sampradaya is very simple: following the four principles, restriction, avoiding the offenses, and chanting regular beads. That’s all. And hearing.”

–from lecture on SB 6.3.18 — Gorakhpur, February 11, 1971

 

“Our first business to every initiated devotee is to chant daily sixteen round of beads without fail, and to follow the regulative principles rigidly, and our literatures must be studied with great attention. “

–from a letter to: Jayapataka — 1975 So. La Cienega Blvd. Los Angeles, Cal. 90034 February 13, 1970

 

“The Governing Body Commission’s duty is therefore to see that every member is following the rules and regulations and chanting sixteen round regularly on the beads.”

–from a letter to: Bali-mardana — Tokyo 25 August, 1970

 

"Under My order, you become a spiritual master and deliver the people of your country." And what is that order? That yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "Whomever you meet, you simply speak what Krsna has said, or what is spoken about Krsna."

 

That is Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. So every one of you follow the instruction, as you have received. Chant sixteen rounds regularly, without fail, and follow the regulative principles, and hear about Krsna, and preach about Krsna. Every one of you become a spiritual master. Simple thing. No education required. Because we are hearing about Krsna, so we can speak the same thing. What is the difficulty? If I hear from my spiritual master or from any learned man that "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," so if I say by hearing that "Krsna is Supreme Personality of Godhead," so I haven't got to search out whether Krsna is Personality of Godhead or not, but if I accept the authority, then I speak the real truth. This is our Krsna consciousness movement. Therefore sometimes, when people say in India, "Swamiji, you have done wonderful." And yes, I do not know. I'm not a magician. But, so far I am confident that I did not adulterate the words of Krsna.

 

[stonehearted]

Depending, I suppose, on what you mean by "practical" and "normal," you're right. If you mean living a workaday, tax-paying consumer's life, a dynamic sadhana can certainly mess up your plan. I've had a strong, steady sadhana for nearly 39 years. When I married more than 35 years ago, our idea was to go to South America and introduce Krishna consciousness to a country where devotees had never been, Peru. When ISKCON politics screwed that up, we went back to Honolulu and served as the head pujaris and later helped open the first Govinda's restaurant. We then moved to the Big Island, where we kept our sadhana, including mangala-arati, daily Deity dressing, Bhagavatam and Gita classes, and festivals for big days. Later I worked as a paralegal in Honolulu for a couple of years, maintaining our sadhana at home and doing service at the temple. However, after Srila Prabhupada's passing from our vision, I was inspired to start a gurukula in Honolulu and later to work at another in California. After leaving ISKCON at the end of 1985 (if you were around then, you could probably guess why), I kept up my sadhana as I worked, helped my wife raise our kids, and got a graduate degree. My sadhana increased while I worked--hard--teaching English at colleges and universities in California and Hawaii. I got a tenure-track position (not an easy thing to accomplish) while maintaining a progressively dynamic sadhana. I also had several strands of service to devotees going--and growing--at the same time. The problem is that this dynamic sadhana continually grew until I was no longer really able to channel the energy needed to grow my academic career. So at 60 I find myself not regularly employed, fairly useless for economic development, intersted mainly in growing my sadhana further and sharing Krishna consciousness, and moving out of family life. This can be somewhat disconcerting, of course, epecially for my wife and kids. It would have been even more disconcerting if I had become similarly useless 15 or 20 years ago, when my wife and kids depended on me more for their maintenance.

 

This seems impractical if I see myself as a white man with English degrees who belongs to a particular little family. It's quite practical, though, if I see myself as someone whose purpose in life is to serve my guru and cultivate love for Krishna. The real question, I guess, is who are you, what do you want, what do you consider success?

[cbrahma]

 

Depending, I suppose, on what you mean by "practical" and "normal," you're right. If you mean living a workaday, tax-paying consumer's life, a dynamic sadhana can certainly mess up your plan. I've had a strong, steady sadhana for nearly 39 years. When I married more than 35 years ago, our idea was to go to South America and introduce Krishna consciousness to a country where devotees had never been, Peru. When ISKCON politics screwed that up, we went back to Honolulu and served as the head pujaris and later helped open the first Govinda's restaurant. We then moved to the Big Island, where we kept our sadhana, including mangala-arati, daily Deity dressing, Bhagavatam and Gita classes, and festivals for big days. Later I worked as a paralegal in Honolulu for a couple of years, maintaining our sadhana at home and doing service at the temple. However, after Srila Prabhupada's passing from our vision, I was inspired to start a gurukula in Honolulu and later to work at another in California. After leaving ISKCON at the end of 1985 (if you were around then, you could probably guess why), I kept up my sadhana as I worked, helped my wife raise our kids, and got a graduate degree. My sadhana increased while I worked--hard--teaching English at colleges and universities in California and Hawaii. I got a tenure-track position (not an easy thing to accomplish) while maintaining a progressively dynamic sadhana. I also had several strands of service to devotees going--and growing--at the same time. The problem is that this dynamic sadhana continually grew until I was no longer really able to channel the energy needed to grow my academic career. So at 60 I find myself not regularly employed, fairly useless for economic development, intersted mainly in growing my sadhana further and sharing Krishna consciousness, and moving out of family life. This can be somewhat disconcerting, of course, epecially for my wife and kids. It would have been even more disconcerting if I had become similarly useless 15 or 20 years ago, when my wife and kids depended on me more for their maintenance.

 

This seems impractical if I see myself as a white man with English degrees who belongs to a particular little family. It's quite practical, though, if I see myself as someone whose purpose in life is to serve my guru and cultivate love for Krishna. The real question, I guess, is who are you, what do you want, what do you consider success?

It depends what you mean by sadhana.

[stonehearted]

 

It depends what you mean by sadhana.

What I mean by sadhana is the processes given by the acharyas and the spiritual master for uncovering the soul's inherent inclination to love Krishna. It's described in the scriptures, quite systematically in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu and repeated in Lord Chaitanya's teachings to Sanatan Goswami in Madhya-lila of Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita, beginning with taking shelter of a spiritual master, inquiring from him about spiritual advancement, accepting initiation from him, serving him with faith and confidence, etc. There are 64 items of vaidhi-sadhana bhakti discussed, as well as process for raganuga-sadhana bhakti.

 

And what do I mean by faith? Nothing different from what we hear from Mahaprabhu and the acharyas: conviction that by serving Krishna all other attainments are fulfilled. This is manifest practically by the six aspects of surrender discussed quite thoroughly by Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

[Kulapavana]

"the minimum that isn't"

 

advancement in Krsna consciousness is not mechanical. it does not depend on the level of your sadhana or the number of books you distribute. Sadhana and service are essential to our advancement yet in themselves are not a guarantee of success. It is all about changes in our consciousness, changes in our desires. The most important part of the sadhana is actually sadhu-sanga, maintaining the favourable association with devotees. we change based on that association.

 

do not be worried about meeting the 'minimum requirements' list - just be with other devotees and have fun. so what that it may take you several lifetimes to get out of this world? You are already on the train out of here. Never, ever forget that.. and enjoy the ride.

[AncientMariner]

 

"the minimum that isn't"

 

advancement in Krsna consciousness is not mechanical. it does not depend on the level of your sadhana or the number of books you distribute. Sadhana and service are essential to our advancement yet in themselves are not a guarantee of success. It is all about changes in our consciousness, changes in our desires. The most important part of the sadhana is actually sadhu-sanga, maintaining the favourable association with devotees. we change based on that association.

 

do not be worried about meeting the 'minimum requirements' list - just be with other devotees and have fun. so what that it may take you several lifetimes to get out of this world? You are already on the train out of here. Never, ever forget that.. and enjoy the ride.

 

 

I like the thought you are expressing here and this post kind of reminds me of the kind hearted sensibility that theist expresses a lot. I find this approach to be much more brahmanical and representative of Prabhupada then some of the guru dogmatism that a lot of the so called "living guru" advocates seem to sometimes express.

[stonehearted]

 

"the minimum that isn't"

 

advancement in Krsna consciousness is not mechanical. it does not depend on the level of your sadhana or the number of books you distribute. Sadhana and service are essential to our advancement yet in themselves are not a guarantee of success. It is all about changes in our consciousness, changes in our desires. The most important part of the sadhana is actually sadhu-sanga, maintaining the favourable association with devotees. we change based on that association.

 

do not be worried about meeting the 'minimum requirements' list - just be with other devotees and have fun. so what that it may take you several lifetimes to get out of this world? You are already on the train out of here. Never, ever forget that.. and enjoy the ride.

 

Nicely said. This is the heart of sadhana. I've often asked if it isn't fun, what's the point? What I do doesn't have to be what you do. In the 11th Canto of the Bhagavatam we find a verse that Srila Bhaktivinoda often quotes that tells us real piety, real beauty means to know where you are and behave accordingly. So figure out what works for you and embrace it. That attitude will ensure real progress. Find devotees you like and trust and associate with them as much as possible. Find aspects of service that appeal to you and embrace them. Remember that you're an individual, with an individual relationship with Krishna. Move forward in realizing that relationship without fear. That's when the process becomes fun.

 

So figure out where you are, what will help you progress, and embrace that, without feeling you need to compare yourself to anyone else. That's what we see in theist that makes us all like and respect him--his humility and candor.

[bhaktajan]

So enlivening.

Youz guys got me crying.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~