Modern science drawing closer to the Spirit factor

[bija]

Here is an excerpt from prominent psychiatrist, Stanislav Grof's, most recent views. I really appreciate this mans perspectives. It is exciting, as a spiritualist, to see modern science pointing to the validity of our personal spiritual practices, as being an essential core of our conscious experience.

 

I truly believe that oneday science and spirit will meet. Time will tell?

 

New Perspectives ebook - click here

 

 

From 'New Perspectives - (observations from modern consciousness research)' by Dr. Stanislav Grof.

 

....To distinguish transpersonal experiences from imaginary products of individual fantasy, Jungian psychologosts refer to this domain as 'imaginal'. French scholar, philosopher, and mystic, Henry Corbin, who first used the term 'mundas imaginalis', was inspired in this regard by his study of Islamic mystical literature (Corbin 2000). Islamic theosophers call the imaginal world, where everything existing in the sensory world has its analogue, 'alam mithal', or 'the eighth climate', to distinguish it from the 'seven climates', regions of traditional Islamic geography. The imaginal world possesses extension and dimensions, forms and colors, but these are not perceptible to our senses as they would be when they are properties of physical objects. However, this realm is in every respect as fully ontologically real and susceptible to consensual validation by other people as the material world perceived.

 

Spiritual experiences appear in two different forms. The first of these, experiences of the 'immanent divine', is characterized subtly, but profoundly transformed perception of the everyday reality. A person having this form of spiritual experiences sees people, animals, plants, and inanimate objects in the environment as radiant manifestations of a unified field of cosmic energy. He or she has a direct perception of the immaterial nature of the physical world and realizes that the boundaries between objects are illusory and unreal. This type of experience of reality has distinctly numinous quality and corresponds to Spinoza's 'deus sive natura', or nature as God. Using the analogy with television, this experience could be likened to a situation where a black and white picture would suddenly change into one vivid, 'living color'. When that happens, much of the old perception of the world remains in place, but is radically redefined by the addition of a new dimension.

 

The second form of spiritual experience, that of the 'transcendent divine', involves manifestation of archtypal beings and realms of reality that are ordinarily transphenomenal, that is unavailable to perception in the every day state of consciousness. In this type of spiritual experience, entirely new elements seem to 'unfold' or 'explicate' - to borrow terms from David Bohm - from another level or order of reality. When we return to the analogy with the television, this would be like discovering to our surprise that there exists channels other than the one we have been previously watching, believing that our TV set had only one channel.

 

The issue of critical imporatnce is, of course, the ontological nature of the spiritual experiences described above. Can they be interpreted and dismissed as meaningless phantasmagoria produced by a pathalogical process affliciting the brain, yet to be discovered and identified by modern science, or do they reflect objectively existing dimensions of reality, which are not accesible in the ordinary state of consciousness. Careful systematic study of transpersonal shows that they are ontologically real and contain information about important, ordinarily hidden dimensions of existence, which can be consensually validated (Grof 1998, 2000). In a certain sense, the perception of the world in holotropic states is more acurrate than our everyday perception of it....

[Bishadi]

 

Here is an excerpt from prominent psychiatrist, Stanislav Grof's, most recent views. I really appreciate this mans perspectives. It is exciting, as a spiritualist, to see modern science pointing to the validity of our personal spiritual practices, as being an essential core of our conscious experience.

 

I truly believe that oneday science and spirit will meet.

in a real sense, the idea that the sciences and spiritual observance will be combined.

 

That phenomenon of 'thing' interacting is as energy exchanges between mass, they are entangled; a physical reality in terms that can be defined in math.

 

On the other hand; we can all be rest assured the sciences will not be combined by a psychiatrist.

 

Maybe someone who should be psychiatrists patient, but not a doc in the field of.

 

Let me add; when a person comprehends how an exchange of mass works, then they can comprehend in a pure form to apply the mind with absolute spiritual commitment.

 

SO when the 2 do in fact become apparent and combine then know that foundation will roll through all knowledge.

 

Need I mention 'light' ?

[bija]

Let me add; when a person comprehends how an exchange of mass works, then they can comprehend in a pure form to apply the mind with absolute spiritual commitment. bishadi

[bija]

 

Maybe someone who should be psychiatrists patient, but not a doc in the field of. by bishadi

Please forgive me bishadi, I may misunderstand your comment and wit here, there seems to be a touch of ignorance.

 

A person who experiences a mystic awakening is often labelled psychiatrically with awful stigma for life. Whereas infact that mystical experience or so called 'non-ordinary state' is an integral part of his/her movement toward wholeness. Whether a man has a doctorate in psychiatry has very little to do whether he will integrate or not? Ofcourse unless you have some bias against psychiatry, or the person in questions choice of profession and his/her medium of conveying some truths.

 

I am optimistic that in this 21st century science and spiritual can use similar terminologies. Especially in the realm of psyche and spiritual study. Maybe the realm of mind and spirit is not such a great divide.

 

But societies actions of environmental degradation, mass consuming, war and nuclear armament etc are considered sane?

[bija]

 

Whether a man has a doctorate in psychiatry has very little to do whether he will integrate or not? posted by bija

Ofcourse Stanislav Grof was one of the early pioneers in LSD research. It seems to have given him direction....

 

 

 

 

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[AncientMariner]

I hope you are right about oneday science and spirit meeting but my experience with reality suggests otherwise but hopefully that is just my own jadedness and such an ideal will truly come to fruition.

[bija]

...some thoughts..

 

It has been said by Srila Prabhupada,

"Krsna consciousness is very scientific"

 

So could we then say, "Some science has spiritual dimension in its content"

 

If that is possible then we have hope for meeting, even if terminologies are somewhat different.

 

The bhakti yogin can then begin discourse with the more material influenced sciences that contain spiritual content. And hopefully explain that bhakti is an integral essential dynamic of the human organism/spirit soul. A most natural way of self-realization, and actualization of full potential.

[bija]

'...As scientific progress continues to lift the spell of the outdated seventeenth century materialistic worldview, we can see the general outlines of an emerging radically new comprehensive understanding of oursleves, nature, and the universe we live in. This new paradigm should be able to reconcile science with experientially based spirituality of a non-denominational, universal, and all-embracing nature and bring about a synthesis of modern science and ancient wisdom.' new dimensions - grof

[bija]

 

Let me add; when a person comprehends how an exchange of mass works, then they can comprehend in a pure form to apply the mind with absolute spiritual commitment.

 

SO when the 2 do in fact become apparent and combine then know that foundation will roll through all knowledge. posted by bishadi

You make some excellent observations here. Science seems to be moving toward research of how an exchange of mass occurs. Previously this has been the field of the mystic and cosmic energy. What is most interesting bishadi is the idea of absolute spiritual commitment, and what role does that play in the scientific view. I feel there is possibility and scope there, for it is what is.

 

I can see it rolling through all knowledge.

 

I also can see your understandings of 'choice' and 'responsibility' in this new paradigm. I appreciate your thoughts in this regard alot.

[Bishadi]

 

Please forgive me bishadi, I may misunderstand your comment and wit here, there seems to be a touch of ignorance.

 

A person who experiences a mystic awakening is often labelled psychiatrically with awful stigma for life. Whereas infact that mystical experience or so called 'non-ordinary state' is an integral part of his/her movement toward wholeness. Whether a man has a doctorate in psychiatry has very little to do whether he will integrate or not? Ofcourse unless you have some bias against psychiatry, or the person in questions choice of profession and his/her medium of conveying some truths.

 

I am optimistic that in this 21st century science and spiritual can use similar terminologies. Especially in the realm of psyche and spiritual study. Maybe the realm of mind and spirit is not such a great divide.

And that bridge comes from knowledge.

 

The comment was to share; this 'i' may appear to need a doctor but the doctors will not be the ones who finish building the bridges.

 

Only One pure revelation coming and it began with 'light' and placing into words the comprehension of how light is the life upon mass; is the bridge to bring the comprehension of spirit into the physical understanding of the experience; when the 2 meet in mind; enlightenment is known.

 

 

But societies actions of environmental degradation, mass consuming, war and nuclear armament etc are considered sane?

 

Strange question but let's ask; were you a policy maker? I wasn't; not my choice.

[Bishadi]

 

You make some excellent observations here. Science seems to be moving toward research of how an exchange of mass occurs. Previously this has been the field of the mystic and cosmic energy. What is most interesting bishadi is the idea of absolute spiritual commitment, and what role does that play in the scientific view. I feel there is possibility and scope there, for it is what is.

 

I can see it rolling through all knowledge.

 

I also can see your understandings of 'choice' and 'responsibility' in this new paradigm. I appreciate your thoughts in this regard alot.

 

Skippy....

 

this 'i' is not very responsive to being appreciated as it is not really 'my' or 'me' as what is to be appreciated; thank the total (existence) and begin answering question is the light of truth.

 

Lean on the 'me' when you need assistence but 'do' based on your choice; you have the basic foundation; now build bridges and soon no valley will be too deep; all 'true' knowledge will combine, eventually

[Sephiroth]

In my opinion, Modern Science cannot go hand-in-hand with Spiritualism. For one thing, the so-called Modern Science today, derived from the Western people who busy disproving God and their religion (Christianity). For nearly 200 years, Western Scientists have been trying hard to disprove that the World is as according to what the Bible taught them.

 

To them, Hindus are merely pagans; similar to those people like the Druids Europe and England or the native Red Indians (in US). No expect that they could love Hindus just because many of today's Scientific discoveries agrees with the Vedas and Gita.

 

Matter a fact, you could see European Scientists kissing the rear end of Muslims, claiming that they were smarter and more intellectual than European scientists were (200 years ago) than to agree that Muslims have stolen the knowledge from India and that most of their (Europeans') knowledge came from the Hindus.

 

Till their egos have been pushed aside and they admit who gave them their basic knowledge (then and now), Science and Spiritualism will never be together as it was long time ago.

[Bishadi]

 

In my opinion, Modern Science cannot go hand-in-hand with Spiritualism.

Another Opinion? Can you offer something material rather than mention stealing and calling all thinkers outside of religion irresponsible or simply bad people.

 

For one thing, the so-called Modern Science today, derived from the Western people who busy disproving God and their religion (Christianity). For nearly 200 years, Western Scientists have been trying hard to disprove that the World is as according to what the Bible taught them.

Ooops! Perhaps but there is not a scientist I personally observed or read about that was born who wakes up with ‘defile religion’ on their mind. Where as religious leaders may be more inclined to discredit science; hence the inquisitions. Do you realize how many people were killed as heretics, witches and alchemist just because they enjoyed tinkering and medically attending even the meek and old.

Perhaps maybe read a little about history. Find that Nostradamus for example probably saved more lives and assisted more people, hand to hand than Jesus himself a 100 times over. During the plague he lost 2 sets of families (wives and children) but would never leave because he knew the 'people' needed him. This man without having to read one line of his personal writings, was a saint to mankind.

To them, Hindus are merely pagans; similar to those people like the Druids Europe and

ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:country-region><st1:place>England</st1:place></st1:country-region> or the native Red Indians (in US). No expect that they could love Hindus just because many of today's Scientific discoveries agrees with the Vedas and Gita.

Much of science existing beyond the inquisitions was maintained by the eastern folk (i agree), not to mention Muslims as well; unlike Christian based religions, knowledge is highly important to many religious sects but you mentioned that science was used to discredit religion, yet science is a base precept of mankinds Love for existence (God).

 

Matter a fact, you could see European Scientists kissing the rear end of Muslims, claiming that they were smarter and more intellectual than European scientists were (200 years ago) than to agree that Muslims have stolen the knowledge from India and that most of their (Europeans') knowledge came from the Hindus.

Why is everyone stealing from <st1:country-region><st1:place>India</st1:place></st1:country-region>? Or the Gita when the west prefers Kama Sutra style knowledge. Is Intel or Nasa from <st1:country-region><st1:place>India</st1:place></st1:country-region>. Is Cern, MIT or Cal Tech in India? Did Gita build St Jude Hospice for to assist children with cancer?

Better still, why even bring up these lines of thinking? What opinion can any offer that shows how suggesting thievery; would offer any good for to address today’s current situations?

Till their egos have been pushed aside

You be point fingers in defense rather than offering intelligent opinions that can be built upon; who using the ego go go right now?

 

and they admit who gave them their basic knowledge (then and now), Science and Spiritualism will never be together as it was long time ago.

Then if this is the case, please give your computer to someone who will use it and go back to making noise to hear yourself being spiritual.

Such as that must have been the purpose of your post, as originally it seemed an opinion was to be observed but instead a reconcilliation that responsibility and ownership of knowledge belongs to <st1:country-region><st1:place>India</st1:place></st1:country-region>.

Shall we remind you that Hindu is a Persian name for the river <st1:place>Indus.</st1:place> Did you ever read about how many believe Zoroaster was a major influence to the Iran-Indo cultures (the core of Persian)? What about Alexander the Greats Hellenistic influence? As between Zoraster and Alex’s Hellenistic form; these are the only recorded religions that combined the East and West and in both the Eastern and Western sects; remains an influences of these forms.

In other words just as an opinion; maybe read a bit more and then share some opinions we can all build from.

 

Good 'contributes' for life to continue; not whinning about how knowledge and the sciences are against religions.

[bija]

thank you bishadi...we have unity...enjoyed your two posts (grateful)

 

Strange question but let's ask; were you a policy maker? I wasn't; not my choice. by bishadi

 

I was not a policy maker, but as a part of the whole, my integration involves responsibility. So in a sense I feel inter-connected with all choices, even if not directly mine.

[Sephiroth]

by Bishadi

 

Do you realize how many people were killed as heretics, witches and alchemist just because they enjoyed tinkering and medically attending even the meek and old.

 

And do you know how any Buddhist monks and Hindu scholars worked hand-by-hand for the past hundreds of years to perfect many of the Science which India had to offer? Yoga, Ayurvedic Medicine, War Surgery and many more are such example of such feats. Don't be clouded by the Europe Church's close-minded approach to Science to judge all beliefs in such way.

 

This man without having to read one line of his personal writings, was a saint to mankind.

 

ONLY when you compare Notradamus with a fictional character like Jesus.

 

knowledge is highly important to many religious sects but you mentioned that science was used to discredit religion, yet science is a base precept of mankinds Love for existence (God).

 

Knowledge without wisdom is useless. What Europeans have then and now are just Knowledge without any Wisdom. Which is why, then and now, they are busy trying to disprove God.

 

Better still, why even bring up these lines of thinking? What opinion can any offer that shows how suggesting thievery; would offer any good for to address today’s current situations?

Why? Because today, their stealing ways continues and many of the Hindus (and other races) are been fooled by lying tongues. Examples - Europeans have stolen many of the herbs used to heal the locals from West Malaysia around 1990s to the point that Malaysian government had banned researchers from entering and taking our samples.

Same decade, some researchers Phaumetical companies from East coast of America have went to South America and stole herbs to use to sythesiz drugs. This drugs worth millions of dollars, NOT one penny will be going to the people whose knowledge they have stolen from.

And I'm quite sure that Hindus here have not forgotten the attempts by Americans recently to patten Yoga practise which could make them rich by asking others to pay to learn and practise?

You be point fingers in defense rather than offering intelligent opinions that can be built upon; who using the ego go go right now?

 

Egostic and self-centred people like Christians and Muslims cannot be helped. They are leaves, carried by their own karmic current. Anyone tries to help them, will be in risk of been carried off by the same current.

 

Then if this is the case, please give your computer to someone who will use it and go back to making noise to hear yourself being spiritual.

 

Do not behave like an idiot. Computers alone do not make the person using it any clever. Nor does the car, bus, motorbike, modern medicine etc. This are mere tools. Even apes can use stone tools and even the most foolish person on the Planet can use a computer.

 

To know and understand Science, you must have intelligence and a certain level of wisdom. It is intelligence and wisdom which will enable you to understand things; and this understanding and wisdom is summarized into a form which others could understand, it is called Science.

 

 

 

[Bishadi]

 

And do you know how any Buddhist monks and Hindu scholars worked hand-by-hand for the past hundreds of years to perfect many of the Science which ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:PlaceName>Europe</ST1:PlaceName> <ST1:PlaceType>Church</ST1:PlaceType></st1:place>'s close-minded approach to Science to judge all beliefs in such way.

Then why have they stopped? Can you shared where the mathematical construct is to how phospholipid bilayers (cell walls) form? Simply the basis to how just about every cell in our body maintains a physical integrity?

This man without having to read one line of his personal writings, was a saint to mankind.

ONLY when you compare Notradamus with a fictional character like Jesus. <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 12pt; HEIGHT: 12pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href="http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/images/smilies/wink.gif" src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\TODDBI~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>

Does fictional also include a blue man with 16 thousand gopis? The point was not to discredit but share how a man by choice can do good and live, even when other discredit; the good lives.

knowledge is highly important to many religious sects but you mentioned that science was used to discredit religion, yet science is a base precept of mankinds Love for existence (God).

Knowledge without wisdom is useless.

in some senses; i.e.. look what Einstein did by releasing E=mc2.

 

What Europeans have then and now are just Knowledge without any Wisdom. Which is why, then and now, they are busy trying to disprove God.

Even Einstein said he wanted to know the mind of God. It is the religious nuts who think science is opposing God; when the truth is the science minded are a wee bit more honest than the religious; they evolve and the religious leadership will only evolve when the following begin to realize the oppression and lose practitioners. Look at history; note how the religions continue to evolve as well the sciences do. But now the divide is so vast; the science ‘business’ is governed by capitalism and the religious are too busy protecting their job and stopped seeking God. (tail end of kali yuga)

Not concerned about ‘your property’ of knowledge. It taint yours; existence owns everything but you did share your idea of loss.....

 

 

You be point fingers in defense rather than offering intelligent opinions that can be built upon; who using the ego go go right now?

Egostic and self-centred people like Christians and Muslims cannot be helped. They are leaves, carried by their own karmic current. Anyone tries to help them, will be in risk of been carried off by the same current.

are you creating an us against them? Why?

The Indians of the earth closest to God are living on reservations in the <st1:country-region><st1:place>USA as well in many unicorporated lands.</st1:place></st1:country-region>

<st1:country-region><st1:place></st1:place></st1:country-region>

Does that bother you to realize this truth? They own nothing and have nothing for any to take and most are the kindest folk any could come across; bliss.

To know and understand Science, you must have intelligence and a certain level of wisdom. It is intelligence and wisdom which will enable you to understand things; and this understanding and wisdom is summarized into a form which others could understand, it is called Science.

Nice closing comment!

And when a scientist understands the single form that combines all branches of the sciences; then the ‘absolute truth’ is realized.

Only one person I know that has combined each of the core branches; chemistry, biology, ecology, physics and even the correction to thermodynamic and cosmology; all within the universal Understanding within the parameters of science (pursuit of absolute truth)

Or how about the western view many do not know

 

Timothy 6:20-21

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding vain and profane babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee

Meaning the sciences are not the foolishness; it is the babbling of false accusations by the teachers of faith.

How about a reread of your teacher

 

"Those who are demons, those who are sinful, nature's law is to place him in such condition that he will become more and more a demon so that he will never be able to understand what is God. This is nature's law. If you want to forget God, then God will put you in such a condition that you can never understand what is God. That is demonic life. That time is also coming. At the present moment, still a few men are interested, what is God. Arto artharti jijnasu jnani. But time is coming ahead when there will be no sense to understand God. That is the last stage of Kali-yuga, and at that time Kalki avatara, Kalki avatara will come. At that time there is no preaching of God consciousness, simply killing, simply killing. Kalki avatara with His sword will simply massacre. Then again Satya-yuga will come. Again golden age will come."

Srila Prabhupada Lecture, <st1:date Month="8" Day="6" Year="1973">08-06-73</st1:date>, <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>

Rather good to repeat quality material.

Seems he wants to know ‘what is God’ and any who stop pursuing become more and more demonic (nature says so); which makes absolute sense such that to fib to retain a faith in the face of truth is simply self destruction and if them faith holders continue to teach in err….. oooops! Need any one suggest the term in vedic sutra?

[Sephiroth]

by Bishadi

 

 

Then why have they stopped?

 

Go ask your Indian Ruling Government why they are so busy kissing the backsides of Americans and Westerners by trying to emulate their way of behaviors. India today is not India as it was during the time when Hindus and Buddhists were together. India today are Westernized India.

 

Malaysia for example have known that 500 years ago, small kingdoms like Malacca and Gangga Negara in Perak were able to achieve great statues because of their trade and relationships with Indian Kingdoms as well as China (and Japan). Once Malaysia have acheved their independance, they severed the ties with Westerners and look toward their Asian neighbours for trade and exchange of values. India severed it's ties with Asian neighbours and tried to mimic the Westerners. That is why to this day, India in such a mess.

 

 

Does fictional also include a blue man with 16 thousand gopis?

 

If you think Sri Krishna is a fictional man, that what are you doing in a Hindu forum? Are you here to corrupt Hindus' mind with further evil from your own close-minded attitude? Most likely.

 

PS : Sri krishna is more real than Jesus. At least Hindus have found the city of Dwarka (both on land as well as the one submerged in the city) as well as follow Gita perfectly even so it have been 5,000 years. Jesus is a mythical figure, created by Romans in order to rope Romans who were leaving their society and becoming Christians.

 

 

Even Einstein said he wanted to know the mind of God.

 

Speaking is one thing, doing it is another thing.

 

 

Look at history; note how the religions continue to evolve as well the sciences do. But now the divide is so vast; the science ‘business’ is governed by capitalism and the religious are too busy protecting their job and stopped seeking God.

 

Except for Hindus and Buddhist, I have failed to see where in history did Religion and Science have went hand-to-hand. Religion itself have failed to bring about proper mentality in Humans. Religious wars and fanatics have brought more suffering to others due to their daydreaming of heaven.

 

Of course, to protect their precious (and some-what useless) religions, some people could blame capitalism for failure to promote proper use of Science.

 

 

are you creating an us against them? Why?

 

 

Read properly, I'm condemning Muslims and Christians, NOT the Red Indians.

 

 

And when a scientist understands the single form that combines all branches of the sciences; then the ‘absolute truth’ is realized.

 

 

Wrong ... there is no "absolute truth" to be found. Anyone looks for an "Absolute truth" will only find an illusion and fall to ignorance.

[Bishadi]

 

Go ask your Indian Ruling Government

Polish by name but rather a mutt. Not indigenous yet appreciate each color, race, creed.

 

 

India today is not India as it was during the time when Hindus and Buddhists were together. India today are Westernized India.

British occupying then Pakistan split; buddhist still there but not many see buddha as post krsna, in avatar lineage....

 

 

If you think Sri Krishna is a fictional man, that what are you doing in a Hindu forum? Are you here to corrupt Hindus' mind with further evil from your own close-minded attitude? Most likely.

Krsna 'incarnations' are vast.

 

The man born 5k years back, could be associated to Jesus in intent but when 'born' equal in mortality. These types of renditions such as suggesting equality and 'as men, we are simply human'....are where religions get in the way.

 

 

PS : Sri krishna is more real than Jesus.

seems more knowledge is available in regards to the eastern sects than christianity, that I will agree on.

 

 

Except for Hindus and Buddhist, I have failed to see where in history did Religion and Science have went hand-to-hand.

 

funny isn't it especially when the west talks about how great they are even in the areas of medicine; it's a business

 

 

Religion itself have failed to bring about proper mentality in Humans.

agreed. No responsibility. As well rebellion and loss of trust from the little people.

 

 

Of course, to protect their precious (and some-what useless) religions, some people could blame capitalism for failure to promote proper use of Science.

Capitalism (corporations) own most of the universities. Remember alumni were students sending money back to their root schools; this is a wheel that either owns or buys anything interfering with business. That is why that in-bred (cultural) set of priorities of capitalistic (western) ideals is so damaging; it makes sense to 'do' for a profit. Most anyone can agree but then by setting a tone to accept the 'profit' then we (people/a community) are required to follow certain conduct that ultimately corrupts in many levels of compassionate associations/ ie... a legal entity can remove people from property for to call a note by a business, so the human aspect is lost to the profit margin.

 

 

 

Wrong ... there is no "absolute truth" to be found. Anyone looks for an "Absolute truth" will only find an illusion and fall to ignorance.

That is like saying; everything is a lie.

 

That there is no reality to life or existence.

 

Please do not write that there is 'no absolute truth' as existence only works ONE way, and mankind is the only thing in existence that can cause a lie.

 

and every one of them fibs began from words....

 

everything is true to God (Vishnu/Brahman/Laws of nature)... yet mankind is the only thing that can create within an experience of choice.

 

The only thing that can isolate itself to become a living "I" within existence and cause the term 'profit' to even exist.

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Hey,

The divide between since and religion is purely a western conception. Because western religion is metaphysical - You cannot know god. ( Jesus could know god because he was god , he was the son of god. ordinary lesser mortals like us cannot know god) You need to accept the religious truths by faith and faith alone - no place for reason as reason is a quality of satan. You cannot prove gods existance by any emprical tests and experimentation.

 

Hence western religion sets it self against reason and science which is based on emprical proof. ( positivistic) . Westion religion is shroply anti positivistic (No rational or empirical proof for the existence of god and religious truths).

 

Easton religions, expecially Hndusism, has no such peoblem. Right from the begining there is no quarrels between reason and religion. Hindu tradition Puts forth reasoing as one of the major means of knowing god (jnana yoga). It also encourages scientific temper - You can know god - everybody can know god - Religious truths can be tested and proved by anyone- There is a method to find and validate its truth - This can be done with the science of rajayoga. That is prety scientific attituude isint it? Only the tools of scientific testing are not any external devices like microcoscope or telescope but youe owwn body and mind. Nonthe less it is scientific.

Hindu religion is very much positivistic - that is , If you wish to prove religious claims there are methods to do that. In fact one is encouraged to engage in this science of yoga for onself. No unreasonable demand on blind faith.

 

Hence the animocity and heated debate between scientific camp and religious camp is completely irrelevent in the case of Hinduism. It is valied only to westen forms of religions - more specifically to Cristionity.

 

K.Ravindran

[bija]

 

Hence the animocity and heated debate between scientific camp and religious camp is completely irrelevent in the case of Hinduism. It is valied only to westen forms of religions - more specifically to Cristionity. posted by ravindran

Yes.

 

In the west the Intelligent Design movement and pro-creation movement is mostly backed by christian fundamentalists. They essentially see science as a bad thing. I have often thought the Intelligent Design crowd would do well with some Vedic thought and perspective. These fundamentalists do themselves a dis-service rejecting the vedic model and other spiritual ways. They are very ethno-centric.

 

The reason I started this thread is to show some science - like transpersonal psychology - draws close to the spiritual model. Even using some of its terminologies.

 

If the west could move beyond its ethno-centric perspectives it may learn something of the bigger picture.

 

Some Hare Krsna's use Srila Prabhupada's teachings to show an anti-science sway. I think they are wrong - I feel Srila Prabhupada, being a very intelligent man - would have keen interest in some of todays scientific discovery. And would have utilized that new discovery to confirm the vedic viewpoint.

 

Science is not of satan.

[Amlesh]

 

Yes.

 

In the west the Intelligent Design movement and pro-creation movement is mostly backed by christian fundamentalists. They essentially see science as a bad thing. I have often thought the Intelligent Design crowd would do well with some Vedic thought and perspective. These fundamentalists do themselves a dis-service rejecting the vedic model and other spiritual ways. They are very ethno-centric.

 

The reason I started this thread is to show some science - like transpersonal psychology - draws close to the spiritual model. Even using some of its terminologies.

 

If the west could move beyond its ethno-centric perspectives it may learn something of the bigger picture.

 

Some Hare Krsna's use Srila Prabhupada's teachings to show an anti-science sway. I think they are wrong - I feel Srila Prabhupada, being a very intelligent man - would have keen interest in some of todays scientific discovery. And would have utilized that new discovery to confirm the vedic viewpoint.

 

Science is not of satan.

True, none of the aspects should be neglected. If we analyze our scriptures, we can see that The Vedas [Thesis] do speak a lot about Physical Nature and that the Upanishad [AntiThesis] is more focussed on the Spiritual platform. The Gita [synthesis], is the only scripture that brings these 2 extremities to a common ground, not neglecting anything.

 

Any of these scientific experiments should not be claimed to be false or seen with an envious eye. The reason is simple, all these scientific experiments gives proofs of the Credibility of the Vedas. Everything has already been said, we are only proving it.

[Dark Warrior]

If one wants to understand the relation between Science and Vedanta, please do not look at ISKCON books. No offense, Srila Prabhupada is a great devotee, but misrepresentation of texts is a major problem with ISKCON.

 

 

If you think Sri Krishna is a fictional man, that what are you doing in a Hindu forum? Are you here to corrupt Hindus' mind with further evil from your own close-minded attitude? Most likely.

 

PS : Sri krishna is more real than Jesus. At least Hindus have found the city of Dwarka (both on land as well as the one submerged in the city) as well as follow Gita perfectly even so it have been 5,000 years. Jesus is a mythical figure, created by Romans in order to rope Romans who were leaving their society and becoming Christians.

 

That is not for us to say. We have no right to call Jesus a myth because its the belief of the Christians. All I am against is the theology of Hare Christnas, who seek to integrate Vaishnavism and Christianity.

 

Coming to the 'truth' or 'myth', every individual has a right to believe or disbelieve. No questions asked. If you wish to believe that Krishna is fictional, and that our scripture is a lie, its your independence, and I don't care about it. What I do not like is:

 

- Saying that the Mahabharata is historical, but that Krishna is a human who was deified. This sort of 'middle ground' is detestable. Either accept or reject...do not compromise scripture.

 

- Saying that so-and-so event is an allegory, even when Scripture calls it historical. Again, accept or reject...do not take this stupid 'middle ground'.

 

The reason why I am against these two positions is as follows - The deeds of the Lord are intertwined with Philosophy. For instance, Krishna lifting the Govardhana is not a mundane 'miracle' to show proof of His divinity...it demonstrates how the Lord protects those who surrender to Him (the residents of Gokula). Krishna multiplying Himself and playing with Gopis is also not a magic trick...again, it shows the accessibility of the Lord, that He loves to mingle with people. Krishna killing Kalinga is not a display of prowess to make people worship Him...it is to show that He is always there for His devotees.

 

Some people say, that these acts are simply allegorical and only illustrate that God is merciful. Unacceptable because, if the Lord is so eager to mingle with us, He will really do it, rather than giving us useless allegories. If He is merciful, He will personally come down to show His mercy, rather than giving us myths to show how merciful He is.

 

If you say it is allegory and not real, you are a closet atheist. The Lord is not so lazy that He stays up in the sky and sends us myths to show how personal He is. If He is all that we think He is, then He takes avatara ONLY for us.

 

If you are a so called Vaishnava who thinks it is allegory and yet embraces Vaishnavism, then why did our acharyas prevent Vaishnavas from worshipping Shiva, or readng Shiva Purana? After all, an alllegory is an allegory...so, differentiating between fictional deities is not even needed. Hence, this position is negated.

 

The second position of saying, 'Krishna was a man who was deified' also is refuted. Let us take an example. Suppose it is proven that Jesus was not crucified, or that he did not walk on water, etc...or that Mohammed did not climb a rope ladder to heaven. Does it really affect the message of the Bible or Koran? Jesus says 'Turn the other Cheek'. Is this dependant on his ability to walk on water or heal people? Nope. Even the Bible does not show Jesus as God. Therefore, even if we think of Jesus as a man, it does not reduce the message of the Bible.

 

Come to Krishna. If we say that He did not do all the things He did, then what happens? Firstly, the whole Gita needs to be ignored, because it is completely BASED on Krishna's divinity. The Vishnu Sahasranama, which calls Vishnu as the Son of Devaki, needs to be ignored. All the acts I mentioned above, that of Rasa Lila, killing Kalinga, lifting Govardhana, etc. will have to be ignored.

 

So, take away these divine acts, and what do we know of 'Krishna'? Absolutely nothing. While in the case of Jesus, we can conclude that a philosopher named Jesus indeed existed, who was deified, we cannot do that for Krishna. If we reduce Him to human, what really is there that we know of Krishna the person? Nothing. We can't even accept Him as a normal human who killed Kamsa and became a King, because even the killing of Kamsa is based on supernatural aspects of His birth and purpose.

 

Thus, you have two choices - Accept Krishna as God. Or reject Him as a myth. I choose the former. If anyone chooses the latter, I could care less. The middle ground, ie, that our scriptures are allegory, or that Krishna is a human, is untenable, especially if we consider that Veda Vyasa insists that everything is historical. Of course, we will still get some people repeating statements such as 'How did Ugrasena have a Million Bodyguards?', or 'How did Ravana have 10 heads?' like a broken tape recorder, without understanding the basics.

 

It is as my acharya, Sri Manavala Mamunigal said, 'Astikas (believers) are fine, and Nastikas (non-believers) are OK as well, because we know where the latter stand. However, the most dangerous group are the Astika Nastikas, ie, believers who preach the wrong message'.

 

No offense intended.

[Amlesh]

At last Dark Warrior, get to hear something from you. I undersand your points, I cannot blame the Founder, but the ISKCON Bhaktas do have to make some progress in this field. But the SP taught the right lessons; many can't understand them.

[Bishadi]

 

True, none of the aspects should be neglected. If we analyze our scriptures, we can see that The Vedas [Thesis] do speak a lot about Physical Nature and that the Upanishad [AntiThesis] is more focussed on the Spiritual platform. The Gita [synthesis], is the only scripture that brings these 2 extremities to a common ground, not neglecting anything.

Thesis, anti-thesis and synthesis (combined)......

 

a development of knowledge and literature represented in a flow process, for the good of ........ us..

 

must appreciate the summary and say thank you; another contribution

 

question; am 'i' the only one getting rich from the developing knowledge?

 

 

Any of these scientific experiments should not be claimed to be false or seen with an envious eye.

Correct just and no sect, belief or culture can be credited with the perfect understanding, as each offer a little piece for the big collection of knowledge.

 

 

The reason is simple, all these scientific experiments gives proofs of the Credibility of the Vedas. Everything has already been said, we are only proving it.

Just as the 'Red' Indians offered proof of how mankind can live within nature without man created machines or even the wheel and have bliss.

 

Or better still; even in egypt and the old summarian writtings upon stone shared 'light' is the key of life ..... and within most all religions on this home (earth) each have represented to the various properties (entanglement/heat/motion/resonance),

 

identities of (the cross/anhk) as well, the ability (prophecies/consciousness) to know how 'light' is that life between mass.

 

soon each can have what knowledge mother earth and father (existence) have provided for to understand, in Peace.

[bija]

 

question; am 'i' the only one getting rich from the developing knowledge? by bishadi

No. In some unexplainable way your growing richness blesses the whole earth. Each particle that awakens contributes in service to the whole. Maybe is it like this? Bye...sleep time...tommorrow...