spirituality and religion - any thoughts on this cbrahma (thx)

[bija]

from the book

'New Perspectives (observations from modern consciousness research) - click here

 

"....To prevent misunderstanding and confusion...it is critical to make a clear distinction between spirituality and religion. Spirituality is based on direct experiences of non-ordinary aspects and dimensions of reality. It does not require a special place or an officially appointed person mediating contact with the divine. The mystics do not need churches or temples. The context, in which they experience the sacred dimensions of reality, including their own divinity, are their bodies and nature. And instead of officiating priests, the mystics need a supportive group of fellow seekers or the guidance of a teacher who is more advanced on the inner journey than they are themselves.

 

Spirituality involves a special kind of relationship between the individual and the cosmos and is, in its essence, a personal and private affair. By comparison, organized religion involves institutionalized group activity that takes place in a designated location, a temple or church, and involves a system of appointed officials who might or might not have had personal experiences of spiritual realities. Onec a religion becomes organized, it often completeley loses the connection with its spiritual source and becomes a secular institution that exploits human spiritual needs without satisfying them.

 

Organized religions tend to create hierarchial systems focusing on the pursuit of power, control, politics, money, possessions, and other secular concerns. Under these circumstances, religious hierarchy as a rule dislikes and discourages direct spiritual expereinces in its memebers, because they foster independence and cannot be effectively controlled...."

[AncientMariner]

It seems to me in some sense Krishna Consciousness is somewhat organized like the Catholic Church but then the acaryas like Prabhupada sometimes say stuff that totally seems to transcend any sort of religous hierarchy so I have to admit I am often confused by these aparent contradictions in Krishna Consciousness but I still find the essence of Krishna Consciousness to be quite fascinating and especially I like the stories about Lord Rsabadheva and Jada Bharata.

 

I enjoyed the excerpt above and found it to have a lot of truth to it.

[bija]

Yeah, Hare Krsna movement as we know it in the west seems to be a mix of religion and spirituality. I like the spirit part Ancient Mariner.

 

Once we have a real spiritual encounter, we will know very clearly what is religion and what is spirituality.

 

I wrote a song the other day that expresses my religion, I have not written one to express my spirituality yet;).

 

 

'Mother earth is my religion,

What Mother earth say,

mother earth do.

 

Mother earth is my religion,

What Mother earth say I do.'

 

This is my eco friendly song of surrender to the lord's energy! Ashes to ashes! Maybe that kind of religion is close to spirit.

[cbrahma]

Bhaktisiddhanta said it best:

 

 

The idea of an organized church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dikes and dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bona-fide spiritual teacher. The people of this world understand preventive systems, they have no idea at all of the unprevented positive eternal life. Neither can there be any earthy contrivance for the permanent preservation of the life eternal on this mundane plane on the popular scale.

Those are, therefore, greatly mistaken who are disposed to look forward to the amelioration of the worldly state in any worldly sense from the worldly success of any really spiritual movement. It is these worldly expectants who become the patrons of the mischievous race of the pseudo-teachers of religion, the Putanas, whose congenial function is to stifle the theistic disposition at the very moment of its suspected appearance. But the theistic disposition can never be stifled by the efforts of those Putanas. The Putanas have power only over the atheist. It is a thankless but salutary task which they perform for the benefit of their unwilling victims.

But as soon as theistic disposition proper makes its appearance in the pure cognitive essence of the awakened soul, the Putanas are decisively silenced at the very earliest stage of their encounter with the new-born Krishna. The would-be slayer of herself slain. This is the reward of the negative services that the Putanas unwittingly render to the cause of theism by strangling all hypocritical demonstrations against their own hypocrisy. But Putana does not at all like to receive her reward in only form which involves the total destruction of her wrong personality. King Kamsa also does not like to lose the services of the most trusted of his agents. The effective silencing of the whole race of pseudo-teachers of religion is the first clear indication of the appearance of the Absolute on the mundane plane. The bona-fide teacher of the Absolute, heralds the Advent of Krishna by his uncompromising campaign against the pseudo-teachers of religion.

 

 

[bija]

 

Once a religion becomes organized, it often completeley loses the connection with its spiritual source and becomes a secular institution that exploits human spiritual needs without satisfying them. Stanislav Grof

 

The idea of an organized church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement....They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada

Spirituality is based on direct experiences of non-ordinary aspects and dimensions of reality. It does not require a special place or an officially appointed person mediating contact with the divine. The mystics do not need churches or temples. The context, in which they experience the sacred dimensions of reality, including their own divinity... SG

 

But as soon as theistic disposition proper makes its appearance in the pure cognitive essence of the awakened soul, the Putanas are decisively silenced at the very earliest stage of their encounter with the new-born Krishna. BSTP

[cbrahma]

The cornerstone of religion or I should say religiosity is mediation. Somebody or something stands in for God. In Hinduism it is diksa. One must be formally admitted into the kingdom of God, as the rightful and credentialed recipient of his grace. In Catholicism it is the priesthood and ultimately the Pope.

The supplicant or neophyte must sacrifice himself in trade for the precious commodity of grace. In Catholicism one actually had to pay for such 'indulgences'. Once you have membership earned through so many ritual sacrifices granted by those who have the 'keys to the kingdom', one can consider one's self justified and 'saved', a legal citizen in the kingdom of God.

It is all about a controlling clergy, a priestly elite who are the gatekeepers , in short - a cult. They grow fat and prosperous on the voluntary (and some points in history, coerced) labor and support of large numbers of disciples and inductees.

I don't have to elaborate the history of such religious power and its devasting effects, but corruption is and has been proven inevitable, its signature crime for some reason always being child abuse.

I find the very idea that a person or collection of persons can be authorized merchants and traders in divine favors, is primitive, repulsive and preposterous.

[Bishadi]

 

from the book

'New Perspectives (observations from modern consciousness research) - click here

 

"....To prevent misunderstanding and confusion...it is critical to make a clear distinction between spirituality and religion. Spirituality is based on direct experiences of non-ordinary aspects and dimensions of reality. It does not require a special place or an officially appointed person mediating contact with the divine. The mystics do not need churches or temples. The context, in which they experience the sacred dimensions of reality, including their own divinity, are their bodies and nature. And instead of officiating priests, the mystics need a supportive group of fellow seekers or the guidance of a teacher who is more advanced on the inner journey than they are themselves.

 

Spirituality involves a special kind of relationship between the individual and the cosmos and is, in its essence, a personal and private affair. By comparison, organized religion involves institutionalized group activity that takes place in a designated location, a temple or church, and involves a system of appointed officials who might or might not have had personal experiences of spiritual realities. Onec a religion becomes organized, it often completeley loses the connection with its spiritual source and becomes a secular institution that exploits human spiritual needs without satisfying them.

 

Organized religions tend to create hierarchial systems focusing on the pursuit of power, control, politics, money, possessions, and other secular concerns. Under these circumstances, religious hierarchy as a rule dislikes and discourages direct spiritual expereinces in its memebers, because they foster independence and cannot be effectively controlled...."

 

Thx.... you hit the nail on the head

 

 

Yeah, Hare Krsna movement as we know it in the west seems to be a mix of religion and spirituality. I like the spirit part Ancient Mariner.

 

Once we have a real spiritual encounter, we will know very clearly what is religion and what is spirituality.

 

 

All talk.....

 

so once you have that 'encounter'... then you have the ability to speak in the first; otherwise....... we all see what you represent, just fine

[bija]

 

All talk.....

 

so once you have that 'encounter'... then you have the ability to speak in the first; otherwise....... we all see what you represent, just fine by bishadi

What do you mean bishadi? Do you feel bija (second person) has not experienced spiritual lol? You may be right. Personally I represent very little, but hopefully reflect some good choice in life. Just the tiniest drop of the spiritual is enough to fill a simple heart with gratitude...for that drop we can hope someday for it (to manifest in the organism). Maybe we all have felt the touch of infinity a little.

 

Is it not possible that all humans are potentially capable of spiritual experience but often just too busy in the external? Each human realizing the spiritual dimension would surely be a blessing for humanity. Rather than just a religious experience (which in many cases seems to divide humanity).

[bija]

I grew up in religion cbrahma (that forbade spiritual discussion). Catholic school, abuse (sick priests and brothers both sexually and physically abusive) etc. It is definetly a much different encounter than the spiritual aspect of the self. The control and abuse of religion was awful, and infact stifeled spiritual awakening. It seems many who choose to remain religious in those structures remain blinded by the structure.

[cbrahma]

 

I grew up in religion cbrahma (that forbade spiritual discussion). Catholic school, abuse (sick priests and brothers both sexually and physically abusive) etc. It is definetly a much different encounter than the spiritual aspect of the self. The control and abuse of religion was awful, and infact stifeled spiritual awakening. It seems many who choose to remain religious in those structures remain blinded by the structure.

Authoritarian hierarchies , at least in the history of the Western world, have always been abusive, especially to the weakest members, women and children. This is regardless of whether they are religious or political. That is the essence of Bhaktisiddhanta's essay - that real spirituality cannot be controlled and traded like a mundane commodity.

It is what ISKCON and the Catholic church have in common.

[bija]

cbrahma, why do you think there has been need to develop religious structures?

 

Why after the manifestation of a great saint or mystic do the religious structures eventually form?

 

As humans in this 21st century, do we need religion? Or can the organism live spiritually and 'whole' without the hierarchy etc?

[bija]

'religion seems to be an addiction'

'building walls so high it becomes an exclusive structure'

oh lordie, happy day when we do not need those structures

[cbrahma]

 

cbrahma, why do you think there has been need to develop religious structures?

 

Why after the manifestation of a great saint or mystic do the religious structures eventually form?

 

As humans in this 21st century, do we need religion? Or can the organism live spiritually and 'whole' without the hierarchy etc?

There are basically two kinds of people - devas and asuras. It isn't always that easy to tell them apart. In Kali Yuga they exist in the same person. But the devil often comes disguised as an angel of light. Egotism is often more effective wearing the mask of benevolence. The religion that should be the via media for the dissemination of God's mercy so easily turns into a demonic mechanism for the exploitation of the innocent. Deadly hypocrisy - the Pharisees- the Smarta Brahmanas - the 'official' ISKCON gurus, the hereditary caste Goswamis all wolves in sheep's clothing. All you have to do is question their superior status and watch the fangs comes out.

[bija]

Some experiences of religion:

 

Terms like 'backslider' and 'fringie' seem to be applied sometimes in religious movements to those who do not adhere to the principles fully. Often there can be a dividing line and the so-called backslider can begin to feel marginalized from the religious body and its people. The religious structure seems to enforce a silent authority that the backslider must conform. A subtle pressure that has no face.

 

This seems to go on in religious structures alot, and very few of the religious seem to be willing to talk about it. Personally I have found that kind of power play to be an awful face of religion. When infact the fringie may be experiencing personal internal spiritual growth in accord with higher will.

[cbrahma]

 

Some experiences of religion:

 

Terms like 'backslider' and 'fringie' seem to be applied sometimes in religious movements to those who do not adhere to the principles fully. Often there can be a dividing line and the so-called backslider can begin to feel marginalized from the religious body and its people. The religious structure seems to enforce a silent authority that the backslider must conform. A subtle pressure that has no face.

 

This seems to go on in religious structures alot, and very few of the religious seem to be willing to talk about it. Personally I have found that kind of power play to be an awful face of religion. When infact the fringie may be experiencing personal internal spiritual growth in accord with higher will.

Actually that is what sadhu sanga is supposed to address. You will find of course that is an empty phrase in a cult-controlled environment where the relieving of the mind is forbidden.

[bija]

 

Actually that is what sadhu sanga is supposed to address. posted by cbrahma

I dont know about that. Touchy point for me...bhakti hopefully is sweeter and bigger than conformity. Maybe my drifting has already begun, many years ago...

 

 

And instead of officiating priests, the mystics need a supportive group of fellow seekers or the guidance of a teacher who is more advanced on the inner journey than they are themselves. quoted grof by bija

This seems more like sangha.

I can understand why people walk away from all religious structure in due course...whether for right or wrong reasons.

The craving for wholeness and spiritual seems to be much deeper in humankind, than the craving for religion. Religion can be let go of, spirit unfolds. But until we discover a particle of spirit and the vision of that, we may possibly continue to look for God in religion and like structures (I guess).

 

Personally if I do not discover more of spirit, sangha will never appear, let alone wholeness of being. But only isolation. The journey continues...

 

[Beggar]

 

There are basically two kinds of people - devas and asuras. It isn't always that easy to tell them apart. In Kali Yuga they exist in the same person. But the devil often comes disguised as an angel of light. Egotism is often more effective wearing the mask of benevolence. The religion that should be the via media for the dissemination of God's mercy so easily turns into a demonic mechanism for the exploitation of the innocent. Deadly hypocrisy - the Pharisees- the Smarta Brahmanas - the 'official' ISKCON gurus, the hereditary caste Goswamis all wolves in sheep's clothing. All you have to do is question their superior status and watch the fangs comes out.

 

Here I completely agree with cbrahma. While all these things are true it is no reason to reject the process given by Srila Rupa Goswami in Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu. The general way to think about such "wolves in sheep's clothing", is "there but for the grace of God, go I." It is also proper to warn others who's spiritual life may be in jeopardy, but it is not proper to obsess about the faults of others, for they will come into our mental system.

[cbrahma]

 

I dont know about that. Touchy point for me...bhakti hopefully is sweeter and bigger than conformity. Maybe my drifting has already begun, many years ago...

 

 

I can understand why people walk away from all religious structure in due course...whether for right or wrong reasons.

The craving for wholeness and spiritual seems to be much deeper in humankind, than the craving for religion. Religion can be let go of, spirit unfolds. But until we discover a particle of spirit and the vision of that, we may possibly continue to look for God in religion and like structures (I guess).

 

You are a good person - sincere and spiritually inclined. The 'sandhu sanga' imperative when it comes from a religious institution is just another control mechanism. I feel that proper association, not self-righteous, but proper truly spiritual association is what you are craving. I think it's what we all are craving , but it's very rare.

[bija]

I think it's what we all are craving , but it's very rare. cbrahma

Exactly cbrahma...

[AncientMariner]

 

You are a good person - sincere and spiritually inclined. The 'sandhu sanga' imperative when it comes from a religious institution is just another control mechanism. I feel that proper association, not self-righteous, but proper truly spiritual association is what you are craving. I think it's what we all are craving , but it's very rare.

 

 

 

Wow, that hits the nail on the head.

[bija]

'...Organized religions tend to create hierarchical systems focusing on the pursuit of power, control, politics, money, possessions, and other secular concerns. under these circumstances, religious hierarchy as a rule dislikes and discourages direct spiritual experiences in its members, because they foster independence and cannot be effectively controlled. When this is the case, genuine spiritual life continues only in the mystical branches, monastic orders, and ecstatic sects of the religions involved...' New Dimensions - Grof.

[cbrahma]

 

'...Organized religions tend to create hierarchical systems focusing on the pursuit of power, control, politics, money, possessions, and other secular concerns. under these circumstances, religious hierarchy as a rule dislikes and discourages direct spiritual experiences in its members, because they foster independence and cannot be effectively controlled. When this is the case, genuine spiritual life continues only in the mystical branches, monastic orders, and ecstatic sects of the religions involved...' New Dimensions - Grof.

 

Submersion of the individual experience into the collective hierarchy is essential to the prosperous control of the priviledged priestly class. Jesus attacked the temple system

 

Jesus entered the temple and began to drive out those selling and buying things there, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those selling doves, and refused to allow anyone to carry things through the temple. That is at least Mark's brief description of what happened (11,15–16), to which he adds the doubtless interpretative frame story of the cursing of the fig tree (11,12–14.20–21) together with Jesus' quotations from Isa 56,7 and Jer 7,11 (11,17). Some see, too, a link to 15,38: Jesus' act is for Mark ratified by the rending of the temple screen, which in turn symbolizes God's departure from the temple.

<!-- /abstract content --><!-- fulltext content --><!-- /fulltext content -->

 

 

Jesus says in John 4:24, "God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."

[bija]

Jesus seems to be like many of the 'great personalities,' radicals and reformers of their traditions. The temple system practiced at the time must have looked like dead religion to Christ; even showing anger at the counterfeit.

 

Strong story from the bible for sure.

 

I have not come to a conclusion yet cbrahma, as to what place religion holds for me in this time and place and my own personal spiritual encounter. But I will say from what I have seen there is much negative aspect to religion, even if it is necessary and serves a purpose. Even to the point of self-reflection and questioning if religion serves any purpose for me and my relation with Spirit.

 

What do you think?

[cbrahma]

 

Jesus seems to be like many of the 'great personalities,' radicals and reformers of their traditions. The temple system practiced at the time must have looked like dead religion to Christ; even showing anger at the counterfeit.

 

Strong story from the bible for sure.

 

I have not come to a conclusion yet cbrahma, as to what place religion holds for me in this time and place and my own personal spiritual encounter. But I will say from what I have seen there is much negative aspect to religion, even if it is necessary and serves a purpose. Even to the point of self-reflection and questioning if religion serves any purpose for me and my relation with Spirit.

 

What do you think?

Signing up with any formal religion that is non-sectarian should be fine, but try and find one -it's almost a contradiction in terms.

[Bishadi]

 

What do you mean bishadi? Do you feel bija (second person) has not experienced spiritual lol? You may be right. Personally I represent very little, but hopefully reflect some good choice in life. Just the tiniest drop of the spiritual is enough to fill a simple heart with gratitude...for that drop we can hope someday for it (to manifest in the organism). Maybe we all have felt the touch of infinity a little.

is Godlike thinking.

 

 

Is it not possible that all humans are potentially capable of spiritual experience but often just too busy in the external?

Yes...

 

 

Each human realizing the spiritual dimension would surely be a blessing for humanity.

what beauty of words

 

 

Rather than just a religious experience (which in many cases seems to divide humanity).

 

even this little 'i' feels;

 

there is more than just hope on the horizon; Peace to you!