Prabhupada's Way or the Highway!

[theist]

 

 

Lord only knows how much I love people that speak in such a plain straightforward way! And the fact that I totally agree with him makes it even that much more enjoyable!

--------------

 

Prabhupada's Way or the Highway!

BY: GOVINDA DASA

 

Jun 24, USA (SUN) —

Prabhus! What is this talk about the Modernist's way or the Guru's way or the middle way? I don't know about you, but I joined the movement in the early seventies because of Srila Prabhupada. I chose his way.

 

If someone does not like that, what are they doing here? Heavy words you may say, but think about it. How many possible ways are there? I remember a joke I read - If there were ten 'new agers' in a room there would be fifteen different philosophies (ways)!

 

Either we are here because we want to follow Srila Prabhupada's way or we are here to cause trouble. It is as simple as that, folks. The 'Pro Choicers' would have us believe that Srila Prabhupada's instructions are too complicated for our little brains and intelligence. But they are lying. They are complicating things to confuse us. Prabhupada's way is simple. In our hearts we all know that!

 

Our history is full of devotees who wanted to do things their way. See how many philosophical deviations / murders / abuses of children / cover-ups / managerial miss-directions / College Going Gurus / changes to our books, ad infinitum have happened and are happening in ISKCON.

 

They are all lead by devotees who wanted to do things their way.

 

I say it is about time we cleaned this movement up. Those who want to do it their way should do just that. They should set up their own movement. They could call it - ISK-CONS International Society for Krishna Cons - The Pros and the Cons. A whole society for people who are against ISKCON - the Conners, ISKCOners.

 

For that is what they are. Let's not be sentimental about it. Either you are Pro Prabhupada or you are Pro Choice! If you think that you know better, then do it yourself. SOMEWHERE ELSE. !!!!!

 

I am sick of hearing 'O ISKCON is not the same anymore.' They are right! It is not the same because of these people changing everything that they can get away with.

 

Where will we be in ten years time if we are thinking like this now?

 

All the devotees who are loyal to Srila Prabhupada should stand up and be counted. The 'pro choicers' should be asked to leave and form their own movement or be humble and accept Srila Prabhupada's way.

 

Govinda das

 

 

[Kulapavana]

And of course the writer is the guy who determines what precisely is the "Prabhupada's way"...

[Bishadi]

a

[Bishadi]

 

Prabhupada's Way or the Highway! BY: GOVINDA DASA

Jun 24, ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:country-region><st1:place>USA</st1:place></st1:country-region> (SUN) — Prabhus! What is this talk about the Modernist's way or the Guru's way or the middle way? I don't know about you, but I joined the movement in the early seventies because of Srila Prabhupada. I chose his way.

A choice.

If someone does not like that, what are they doing here?

Same question as why did Prabhupada come to the <st1:country-region><st1:place>USA</st1:place></st1:country-region>?

Heavy words you may say, but think about it. How many possible ways are there? I remember a joke I read - If there were ten 'new agers' in a room there would be fifteen different philosophies (ways)!

So then the previous question was moot? “If someone does not like that, what are they doing here?”<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

 

Either we are here because we want to follow Srila Prabhupada's way or we are here to cause trouble. It is as simple as that, folks.

or to learn, consider and then share questions not even the best of the best, may not have been exposed to. such that prior to Srila, there was not usage of the internet and the volumes of material available times 100k that was available back then.

 

The 'Pro Choicers' would have us believe that Srila Prabhupada's instructions are too complicated for our little brains and intelligence.

Rather the other way around; as it appears the faithful are too busy being stuck on One set of beliefs rather than maintain the precept of compassion and honor the forum of articulation in which all parties can associate for the benefit of others, the future.

 

But they are lying. They are complicating things to confuse us. Prabhupada's way is simple. In our hearts we all know that!

As you confirmed; the truth will open up frames of reference a belief cannot append or relate too.

Our history is full of devotees who wanted to do things their way.

such that to convey the vedic beliefs and conveyances into English; was new, different and of the cause of promoting the quality of a teaching within a world of various religions that do not fit or assimilate the same ideals.

We should all be thankful are of the compassion to ‘do’ for the development of what is ‘good’ by intent.

 

I am sick of hearing 'O ISKCON is not the same anymore.'

ISKCON is not a ‘corporate’ faith as even Srila, said remove the collective unity of each site. Each site must develop within its own environment. So ISKCON is not supposed to have a governing position; as a religious entity.

 

They are right! It is not the same because of these people changing everything that they can get away with.

Such as this thread; barking as if a kid whining about getting his way.

Where will we be in ten years time if we are thinking like this now?

Maybe go back to the books; look up kali yuga and the return of the kalki; it was written; it is reroute like a freight train. Don’t get mad with self as the defensive mechanism but humble yourself to commit to God (existence)

Grow up and learn a bit and get off the high horse as if you are really something special to existence.

[Bishadi]

 

And of course the writer is the guy who determines what precisely is the "Prabhupada's way"...

 

that's a scary thought

[theist]

It's just like the Catholics who disagree with the church's stance on abortion. Instead of finding another church or even starting their own they make trouble for others by hanging around and trying to impose their views over the Popes.

 

Don't like Prabhupada's program then do your own version of sadhana. Don't like what he says in HIS books then don't read them. The point is keep your ****ing hands off them and write your own.

[Bhaktiasitis]

 

Lord only knows how much I love people that speak in such a plain straightforward way! And the fact that I totally agree with him makes it even that much more enjoyable!

--------------

 

Prabhupada's Way or the Highway!

BY: GOVINDA DASA

 

Jun 24, USA (SUN) —

Prabhus! What is this talk about the Modernist's way or the Guru's way or the middle way? I don't know about you, but I joined the movement in the early seventies because of Srila Prabhupada. I chose his way.

 

If someone does not like that, what are they doing here? Heavy words you may say, but think about it. How many possible ways are there? I remember a joke I read - If there were ten 'new agers' in a room there would be fifteen different philosophies (ways)!

 

Either we are here because we want to follow Srila Prabhupada's way or we are here to cause trouble. It is as simple as that, folks. The 'Pro Choicers' would have us believe that Srila Prabhupada's instructions are too complicated for our little brains and intelligence. But they are lying. They are complicating things to confuse us. Prabhupada's way is simple. In our hearts we all know that!

 

Our history is full of devotees who wanted to do things their way. See how many philosophical deviations / murders / abuses of children / cover-ups / managerial miss-directions / College Going Gurus / changes to our books, ad infinitum have happened and are happening in ISKCON.

 

They are all lead by devotees who wanted to do things their way.

 

I say it is about time we cleaned this movement up. Those who want to do it their way should do just that. They should set up their own movement. They could call it - ISK-CONS International Society for Krishna Cons - The Pros and the Cons. A whole society for people who are against ISKCON - the Conners, ISKCOners.

 

For that is what they are. Let's not be sentimental about it. Either you are Pro Prabhupada or you are Pro Choice! If you think that you know better, then do it yourself. SOMEWHERE ELSE. !!!!!

 

I am sick of hearing 'O ISKCON is not the same anymore.' They are right! It is not the same because of these people changing everything that they can get away with.

 

Where will we be in ten years time if we are thinking like this now?

 

All the devotees who are loyal to Srila Prabhupada should stand up and be counted. The 'pro choicers' should be asked to leave and form their own movement or be humble and accept Srila Prabhupada's way.

 

Govinda das

 

 

 

 

 

'AS IT IS' IS THE ONLY WAY AND SHOULD ALWAYS BE THAT WAY

[Bishadi]

 

It's just like the Catholics who disagree with the church's stance on abortion. Instead of finding another church or even starting their own they make trouble for others by hanging around and trying to impose their views over the Popes.

 

Don't like Prabhupada's program then do your own version of sadhana. Don't like what he says in HIS books then don't read them. The point is keep your ****ing hands off them and write your own.

 

again scary when to read the old works, the teachers knew something maybe even today's teacher's do not

 

 

 

 

eko devah sarva-rupi mahatma

gauro rakta syamala-sveta-rupah

caitanyatma sa vai caitanya-saktir

bhaktakaro bhakti-do bhakh-vedyah

 

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the master of all transcendental potencies, and who may be known only by devotional service, [bhakti vedyah] appears in innumerable transcendental forms. He has appeared in red, white and black complexions, [gauro rakta syamala sveta rupah] and He will also appear in the golden form of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He will assume the role of a perfect devotee [bhakta akarah] and He will teach the conditioned souls the path of pure devotional service [bhakti dah]."

Sri Caitanya Upanisad, Text 6 (3)

 

that it is when the four colors of mankind (honoring each with compassion) that the final words are completed

 

if it was all about the 'me' the words would already be done

 

but the commitment to existence (God) far outweighs anything call 'me'

 

so the process of change is the experience to enjoy until then

 

 

 

[Kulapavana]

 

It's just like the Catholics who disagree with the church's stance on abortion. Instead of finding another church or even starting their own they make trouble for others by hanging around and trying to impose their views over the Popes.

 

 

Just like the Catholics have an amazing flexibility of belief and practice developed over 2000 years of existence, ISKCON will continue to evolve over time, despite the desires of people like the author of this text.

 

The claims of such people to posess the 'only valid way' are laughable and merely reflect their desire for control.

 

Instead of conducting real takeover of power from the current ruling elite, they merely whine about returning to the 'good old days', where of course people like them would be in charge...

[bhaktajan]

 

 

Hey Everybody?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

 

 

Do you all start your japa-mala chanting with the following:

 

 

 

 

çré-kåñëa-caitanya

prabhu-nityänanda

çré-advaita gadädhara

çréväsädi-gaura-bhakta-vånda

???

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

 

 

Well, if you all do--then welcome

 

 

 

to

 

 

 

the

 

 

 

International Society for Krishna Conscousness.

:bounce::bounce:

 

 

 

 

Sorry to interupt your ferver--just thinking aloud

 

[theist]

 

'AS IT IS' IS THE ONLY WAY AND SHOULD ALWAYS BE THAT WAY

Yes the point being even in ordinary material life the author of a book has a right to speak his own mind. The founder of a religious institution and one that bears his name as founder acarya has a right to set the doctrines of that institution.

 

Just witness the care not to allow any change and tampering with the works of Rabindranath Tagore his estates caretakers take now that he has passed.

[cbrahma]

There are so many other interests that Prabhupada's way does not serve.

He is criticized from all fronts.

The traditionalists don't even believe he is properly initiated into the parampara.

There are a variety of GM disciples who need to throw his whole credibility into question, in order pass over him as just some mundane personality.

There are even his own disciples who make apologies for him, 'correcting' his books and his instructions. Whatever the case, since his samadhi a subtle wave of apharada has swept to try to diminish his purity and importance. Those who see him as a threat to their religionist agenda have moved in for the kill.

[Bishadi]

 

There are so many other interests that Prabhupada's way does not serve.

He is criticized from all fronts.

The traditionalists don't even believe he is properly initiated into the parampara.

There are a variety of GM disciples who need to throw his whole credibility into question, in order pass over him as just some mundane personality.

There are even his own disciples who make apologies for him, 'correcting' his books and his instructions. Whatever the case, since his samadhi a subtle wave of apharada has swept to try to diminish his purity and importance. Those who see him as a threat to their religionist agenda have moved in for the kill.

 

if the credibility of the man is in question then question the content of what was conveyed; as it is real easy to see the intent has always been good.

 

meaning; was he hiding a mercedes or concubines or what ever for the self?

 

most likely not; the issues of questions are caused because the realities of what life is?, what makes us breath?, how we exist eternal?.... the physical truths of reality are becomming in direct conflict with some of the teachings. And these realities are why most pursue a religion (belief) in the first place.

 

Just as now; these conflicts or additional knowledge now upon the world often allow a mind comprehension beyond what a teacher believes true and then when a teacher, says "NO" the rebellion is not so much the students fault but often the teachers failures to prepare the knowledge or learn before the students; just to make sure.

 

the teacher must never stop the pursuits otherwise the students (children) will be way beyond the capacity for the teacher to ever catch up..

 

In basic business; ever note how some manufacturers will hire a newby straight out of college before and old timer with antiquated method of working through issues?

[bija]

 

Just like the Catholics have an amazing flexibility of belief and practice developed over 2000 years of existence, ISKCON will continue to evolve over time, despite the desires of people like the author of this text. by kulapavana

Well lets see in 9,900 years from now. A different time and place for sure.

 

Will the 'no change' policy makers 9,900 years from now have kept the 'original truth' intact. Or will they have 'stifled' it thousands of years before, making it impotent because they thought they were still living in the 20th century. Seeing change as an offence to Srila Prabhupada. (Just imagine Srila Prabhupada's and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's innovations 200 years before their time - the world was not ready - they would have been ridiculed.) It seems maddness that these Iskcon people speak of these books as 10,000 year books with no change. In my humble opinion keep the books unchanged - but dont stop innovation, dont stop dynamism, dont stop moving with the current of time. 10,000 years is a long time!!

 

Anyway, my space rocket to Mars is waiting and the Japa Mala has fasted way to long. Somethings never change!

 

We will see if the no change, no comment on books people do great good or harm to the future of Iskcon. Personally I feel as Iskcons fundamentalist exclusivism grows, big walls will be built, and hard to penetrate! Ofcourse if one does not hurdle the walls, then the faithful will say 'you did not receive the devotees mercy - humble yourself!'

 

 

....Either you are Pro Prabhupada or you are Pro Choice! If you think that you know better, then do it yourself. SOMEWHERE ELSE. !!!!! by govinda dasa

An odd mercy it will be indeed! Full of power and play!

 

I would prefer something simple, so I choose elsewhere. Too many walls even now in the 21st century for me. I could not pass the pre-requisite. The local Catholic Church (who new I was Hare Krsna devotee) was more open and welcoming than the Iskcon centre. That is my encounter, and it saddens me!

 

The 'no change' agenda is possibly just another smokescreen for something much deeper, and those in leadership and position do not wish to look at it - 'The need to control'. Very few humans will go deep enough within to see the deep afflictions of the unconscious, and how these afflictions are the roots of our conditioning. Almost guiding us like robots with 'no choice'. This need to control is one of the deepest afflictions of the conditioned human - even in the robes of institution or aspiring saint.

 

What disappoints me is that if one does not 'conform' he/she is labelled. I find nothing much pleasing in Govinda dasa's article and vision. Just a huge smokescreen. Its time for us to get real Govinda dasa. Many of us have deep seated anarthas still (I know I do).

[bija]

 

The claims of such people to posess the 'only valid way' are laughable and merely reflect their desire for control. posted by kulapavana

This need to control is one of the deepest afflictions of the conditioned human - even in the robes of institution or aspiring saint. posted by bija

Think about it. Scripture and Srila Prabhupada's teaching back these statements up.

 

This need for control has tainted many religious movements during the course of history, not just individuals.

 

If we can get back to basics, and by grace see the unconscious workings of our minds...maybe then we can 'accept change', and let go of the need to control and the fear involved in that need. Why should fear be the catalyst for decisions?

 

Decisions as important as Iskcon's future should be made from 'clear mind' when possible. Then the movement will never stifle, will always be dynamic...and fully dependant upon Lord Nitaai in surrender. (and ofcourse that may involve no change if the Lord wills - personally I doubt it).

[theist]

bija somehow it seems you do not understand the point being discussed.

 

 

Will the 'no change' policy makers 9,900 years from now have kept the 'original truth' intact. Or will they have 'stifled' it thousands of years before, making it impotent because they thought they were still living in the 20th century. Seeing change as an offence to Srila Prabhupada. (Just imagine Srila Prabhupada's and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's innovations 200 years before their time - the world was not ready - they would have been ridiculed.) It seems maddness that these Iskcon people speak of these books as 10,000 year books with no change. In my humble opinion keep the books unchanged - but dont stop innovation, dont stop dynamism, dont stop moving with the current of time. 10,000 years is a long time!!

Amongst the large quantity of sound good speculation in your post there is this. You speak of the innovations Bhaktisiddhanta put in place and Srila Prabhupada also as if that is some license for any mundane person in a devotee suit to suddenly make changes to their innovations. One point is that the nature of those innovations was put in place by them BY STARTING THEIR OWN MATHA!!!!! Get the point. That is what Govinda das is advocating.

 

Another point is that their is a scarcity of such highly elevated devotees as SBS and SP to do make the correct innovations. Making change is easy in the material world which is charaterized as the place of constant change. You sound a Barack Obama groupie who cheers when Obama says "Change" even though he has no idea what the nature of the change will be.

 

What is needed is stripping back all the crap (CHANGE) that has already been done to Prabhupada's program by all the change junkies that think they know so much they can correct their spiritual master desires concerning his own Matha and life's work.

 

 

Decisions as important as Iskcon's future should be made from 'clear mind' when possible. Then the movement will never stifle, will always be dynamic.

 

 

"Clear mind"? The only clear mind is a Krsna conscious mind. "When possible"? Yeah everyone advocating changing his books and teachings thinks he speaks from a clear mind. Not even all of Srila Prabhupada's attempts were successful. The sannyasi program for instance and he was even considering dropping the second or brahminical initiation because of all the unqualified getting threads and becoming brahmanas. You will find the basis both for the attempts and even for the eventual abandonment of some programs right there in the basics of his teachings.

 

The only change Iskcon needs to make now is to drop all the changes they have already put in place and get back to Prabhupada's program in which I see a great simplicity and purity.

 

There will never be anything more dynamic then sankirtan.

 

Strong tone I know but this is one subject that I am uncompromising on in my beliefs and I make no apologies for my stance or delivery.

[bija]

 

bija somehow it seems you do not understand the point being discussed. post by theist.

Yeah...on my own tangent Theist. A tangent of my own experience. Sorry about that.

 

I am glad you are strong and do not compromise. Your post is very clear and makes many correct excellent points. Thx.

 

Clear mind = Krsna conscious mind...yes!

 

I will simplify my point/stance in these small statements (its not pretty):

 

'God for me is not all this stuff'.

 

'All this stuff is a man made contrivance'.

 

I want to get back to basics...so the highway it is!!

 

I have lost faith in institutions and such structures!

 

Krsna is all around us. In the wind, in nature...in a persons smile. All this Iskcon institutional stuff simply conditions my already conditioned mind. Serves no useful purpose in this present moment for me. And has turned me off.

 

Some of the people within the institution seem so conditioned by key phrases, key ideas...so on and so on. I just can't see God in any of it anymore unfortunately.

 

'Institutional structure and concern has become an impersonal edifice - that does not reply to questioning or offer dialogue' - bija.

 

Maybe to be honest Theist....I have simply lost faith! So men like Govinda dasa can do what they must do. As I must do also what need be, to maintain my grip on KC. And leave what is not beneficial.

 

And I do think there are men in Iskcon qualified...but the group think will stifle them. So they leave and make their own path and maths, yes. So in that sense Govinda dasa speaks truth...eternal truth...no...just man made contrivances. While we live in this earthly realm. Practical maybe...exclusive...yes...

[bija]

 

Either we are here because we want to follow Srila Prabhupada's way or we are here to cause trouble. It is as simple as that, folks. posted by Govinda dasa

This is such a black and white statement. A fear/control driven statement. A key phrase.

 

Impossible to dialogue with. Because the label of 'trouble maker' has already been given. Infact many of these so called trouble makers, may have had deep love for Srila Prabhupada and his movement. Far from being 'non-subservients'.

 

Group think - is such a beast.

[bija]

 

I was a highwayman. Along the coach roads I did ride

With sword and pistol by my side

Many a young maid lost her baubles to my trade

Many a soldier shed his lifeblood on my blade

The bastards hung me in the spring of twenty-five

But I am still alive.

 

I was a sailor. I was born upon the tide

And with the sea I did abide.

I sailed a schooner round the Horn to Mexico

I went aloft and furled the mainsail in a blow

And when the yards broke off they said that I got killed

But I am living still.

 

I was a dam builder across the river deep and wide

Where steel and water did collide

A place called Boulder on the wild Colorado

I slipped and fell into the wet concrete below

They buried me in that great tomb that knows no sound

But I am still around..I'll always be around..and around and around and

around and around

 

I fly a starship across the Universe divide

And when I reach the other side

I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can

Perhaps I may become a highwayman again

Or I may simply be a single drop of rain

But I will remain

And I'll be back again, and again and again and again and again..

 

the man in black.

[cbrahma]

 

Think about it. Scripture and Srila Prabhupada's teaching back these statements up.

 

This need for control has tainted many religious movements during the course of history, not just individuals.

 

If we can get back to basics, and by grace see the unconscious workings of our minds...maybe then we can 'accept change', and let go of the need to control and the fear involved in that need. Why should fear be the catalyst for decisions?

 

Decisions as important as Iskcon's future should be made from 'clear mind' when possible. Then the movement will never stifle, will always be dynamic...and fully dependant upon Lord Nitaai in surrender. (and ofcourse that may involve no change if the Lord wills - personally I doubt it).

this is very funny. Religionists with their demands on formal membership and the hundred and one dry rules and requirements are not controlling. But with Prabhupada who gave Lord Caitanya's mercy freely, following his direction is control. This is just hilarious.

[bija]

ok...where is 'Pure Prabhupada' found?

 

That is funny. Everyone claiming to hold the pure essence, or claiming a need to control that essence.

 

I find these constant debates a turn off on the road toward Gaudiya Vaisnavism. I am sure some people outside of Hare Krsna circles would feel similar. And question what is all this discussion about.

 

I thought you were into simplicity cbrahma. Or are you a holder of the 'pure way' too?

 

Sorry, life is to short to have endless debates about Prabhupada and the original teaching. I wish I could just live the instructions...and surrender to them (but without sangha thats a big ask - and where is the sangha - its concealed in a divided fragmented institutional movement)! I would rather take the highway than listen to all these projections from others. And if that is rejecting Srila Prabhupada, in some peoples eyes, so be it!

 

It is funny. Its a joke.

[theist]

 

Yeah...on my own tangent Theist. A tangent of my own experience. Sorry about that.

 

I am glad you are strong and do not compromise. Your post is very clear and makes many correct excellent points. Thx.

 

Clear mind = Krsna conscious mind...yes!

 

I will simplify my point/stance in these small statements (its not pretty):

 

'God for me is not all this stuff'.

 

'All this stuff is a man made contrivance'.

 

I want to get back to basics...so the highway it is!!

 

I have lost faith in institutions and such structures!

 

Krsna is all around us. In the wind, in nature...in a persons smile. All this Iskcon institutional stuff simply conditions my already conditioned mind. Serves no useful purpose in this present moment for me. And has turned me off.

 

Some of the people within the institution seem so conditioned by key phrases, key ideas...so on and so on. I just can't see God in any of it anymore unfortunately.

 

'Institutional structure and concern has become an impersonal edifice - that does not reply to questioning or offer dialogue' - bija.

 

Maybe to be honest Theist....I have simply lost faith! So men like Govinda dasa can do what they must do. As I must do also what need be, to maintain my grip on KC. And leave what is not beneficial.

 

And I do think there are men in Iskcon qualified...but the group think will stifle them. So they leave and make their own path and maths, yes. So in that sense Govinda dasa speaks truth...eternal truth...no...just man made contrivances. While we live in this earthly realm. Practical maybe...exclusive...yes...

 

Well good. Sounds like you have come around. No changes from Prabhupada's teaching and no changing in the teachings (books). You want to do something differently well so do I. Therefore we walk outside the structure, we don't try to change what Prabhupada set up to suit our own whims.

[bija]

Here is a personal experience. Do with it what you want cbrahma.

 

I am a Hare Krsna devotee who never lived near a sangha. Just Prabhupada's books. Several years ago I got my first computer, to have some internet sangha.

 

The first impression on the net was, wow, I don't know if I like Hare Krsna people. All they do is argue and debate. Maybe that was just internet sangha.

 

I know one thing for sure. Constant debate about this and that, is not effective preaching!

[bija]

 

Therefore we walk outside the structure, we don't try to change what Prabhupada set up to suit our own whims. posted by theist

Yes exactly Theist. The managers and aspiring managers within those structures can take that role and responsibility.

 

Some seem to aspire to that side of religious/spiritual life. I don't envy their call...and I do think some are qualified...but the group may not think so of them. Especially if they are progressives.

[theist]

 

Sorry, life is to short to have endless debates about Prabhupada and the original teaching.

 

 

I know one thing for sure. Constant debate about this and that, is not effective preaching!

 

 

No one forced you to respond to Govinda das's letter.