Prabhupada's Way or the Highway!

[bija]

 

So bob has spoken dismissing the entire Abrahamic tradition. Ok. cbrahma

lol (silly hey)...must be close to my snooze time. good-night.

 

*maybe we should count our blessings that the 'traditions' are not shedding blood for atonement still. A sprinklin' here a sprinklin' there...kinda messy! sweet dreams!

 

[Kulapavana]

 

I don't have to study the history. I was there. I know the spirit, the intention, the siddhanta that Prabhupada was preaching. There are things that can be adjusted and things that should never be adjusted and he knew the difference. Now everything is up for grabs.

 

That was my orginal point: WHO decides what EXACTLY is the actual 'Prabhupada's way'? There are obviously various opinions on that.

[cbrahma]

 

That was my orginal point: WHO decides what EXACTLY is the actual 'Prabhupada's way'? There are obviously various opinions on that.

You wish it were just a matter of opinion. There also a lot of traditionalist opinions, but they get touted as gospel.

Prabhupada was rarely ambiguous. Read his books, his letters, listen to the tapes, those that haven't been tampered with.

[Kulapavana]

 

You wish it were just a matter of opinion. There also a lot of traditionalist opinions, but they get touted as gospel.

Prabhupada was rarely ambiguous. Read his books, his letters, listen to the tapes, those that haven't been tampered with.

 

It IS to a very large extent a matter of opinion. And Prabhupada was not only sometimes ambiguous, but also practical, pragmatic, and willing to make a 180 degrees turn on his 'way' to correct the course.

[cbrahma]

 

It IS to a very large extent a matter of opinion. And Prabhupada was not only sometimes ambiguous, but also practical, pragmatic, and willing to make a 180 degrees turn on his 'way' to correct the course.

I already admitted that he flexed according to time and circumstance on some things. But making it all things is just your wishful thinking.

[Kulapavana]

 

I already admitted that he flexed according to time and circumstance on some things. But making it all things is just your wishful thinking.

 

I never said that 'all things' are up for editing. The core of his mission as presented in ISKCON's original incorporation statements is non-negotiable, but precisely what form our efforts take to achieve these goals is very much flexible and a matter of pragmatic opinion.

[cbrahma]

 

I never said that 'all things' are up for editing. The core of his mission as presented in ISKCON's original incorporation statements is non-negotiable, but precisely what form our efforts take to achieve these goals is very much flexible and a matter of pragmatic opinion.

Your speculative hopefulness that Prabhupada can be questioned at every turn is only exceeded by your naivety in believing that the current ISKCON presents Prabhupada's 'core' mission.

[Kulapavana]

 

Your speculative hopefulness that Prabhupada can be questioned at every turn is only exceeded by your naivety in believing that the current ISKCON presents Prabhupada's 'core' mission.

 

I personally know scores of good, dedicated devotees in current Iskcon, and yes, they represent the core of Prabhupada's mission. The top is mostly rotten, but I am very optimistic about the future.

[Bishadi]

 

It IS to a very large extent a matter of opinion. And Prabhupada was not only sometimes ambiguous, but also practical, pragmatic, and willing to make a 180 degrees turn on his 'way' to correct the course.

 

these types of humility (able to turn around) is a good indicator in observering a compassionate human being

 

On course but the course is not there's; and capable of knowing that

[cbrahma]

 

I personally know scores of good, dedicated devotees in current Iskcon, and yes, they represent the core of Prabhupada's mission. The top is mostly rotten, but I am very optimistic about the future.

When those in charge are rotten, you are optimistic - naive would be a more appropriate word.

Those who are in charge, namely the centralized GBC, are steering ISKCON - it's core mission - and its NOT in the direction that Prabhupada intended.

[cbrahma]

 

The actual Krishna consciousness movement had nothing whatsoever to do with change. It was a movement of spiritual rejuvenation, which is a completely different process from change or transformation. Srila Prabhupada was relegated to the position of a figurehead in the last months (or even years), and then eleven powerful men—under the ultimate influence of TKG—created the First Transformation. TKG was very instrumental in the coup of the spring of 1978, and an “Acharya Board" was created as an independent subset of the “GBC.” Yes, Swami B.R. Sridhar was also instrumental; he served as the soil for those eleven seeds of personal glory (“The poison is personal ambition”). There would have been no Zonal Acharyas, however, without the directed influence of TKG. The eleven Zonals constituted just short of half of the votes of the “GBC” during the spring of 1978, but they wielded far, far more than half of the influence on that governing body. The other Commissioners failed us, and they did not stop the eleven pretender mahabhagavats from their takeover of the movement. This was the First Transformation.

Kailasa Candra dasa

 

[Kulapavana]

 

When those in charge are rotten, you are optimistic - naive would be a more appropriate word.

Those who are in charge, namely the centralized GBC, are steering ISKCON - it's core mission - and its NOT in the direction that Prabhupada intended.

 

The devotees I'm talking about regularly go out on harinam and book sankirtan, hold Sunday feasts in temples they maintain and manage, preach to people, organize open festivals, and run farms aimed at economic viability. They care very little about the often rotten top of Iskcon power pyramid. They are not stupid. They may not be able to influence the GBC decisions but they do carry on with Prabhupada's mission.

 

One day, when the corrupt old-timers now in GBC leave this world, these devotees will take over. They are not ex-hippie power junkie pseudo-sannyasis. They are practical, sincere devotees who understand the past mistakes and know the needs of the present day people. That is why I am optimistic about Prabhupada's mission. Prabhupada's 'children' are the brake. When his 'grand-children' take over, it will be a completely different Iskcon, IMO much closer to what Prabhupada intended.

[cbrahma]

 

The devotees I'm talking about regularly go out on harinam and book sankirtan, hold Sunday feasts in temples they maintain and manage, preach to people, organize open festivals, and run farms aimed at economic viability. They care very little about the often rotten top of Iskcon power pyramid. They are not stupid. They may not be able to influence the GBC decisions but they do carry on with Prabhupada's mission.

 

One day, when the corrupt old-timers now in GBC leave this world, these devotees will take over. They are not ex-hippie power junkie pseudo-sannyasis. They are practical, sincere devotees who understand the past mistakes and know the needs of the present day people. That is why I am optimistic about Prabhupada's mission. Prabhupada's 'children' are the brake. When his 'grand-children' take over, it will be a completely different Iskcon, IMO much closer to what Prabhupada intended.

By corrupt old-timers are you referring to the gurus of these devotees who are 'managing' and supposedly carrying out Prabhupada's mission?

Last time I was regularly associating was only a year ago. It didn't look like Prabhupada's mission at all.

[Kulapavana]

 

By corrupt old-timers are you referring to the gurus of these devotees who are 'managing' and supposedly carrying out Prabhupada's mission.

Last time I was regularly associating was only a year ago. It didn't look like Prabhupada's mission at all.

 

Some of the devotees I was talking about are on their second or third 'guru'. Do you think they are 'guru fanatics'? They often took another 'initiation' just because they were pressured from above to do so. Others have a guru they really like, but do not see him as an absolute authority on everything. Yet another group have gurus which are quite reasonable. But they all know what is important: the mission. I associate with these people every day. Directly and through the web.

[Bishadi]

 

At their first meeting, in 1922, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura requested Srila Prabhupada to broadcast Vedic knowledge through the English language. In the years that followed, Srila Prabhupada wrote a commentary on the Bhagavad-gita and in 1944, without assistance, started an English fortnightly magazine.

 

 

Recognizing Srila Prabhupada's philosophical learning and devotion, the Gaudiya Vaisnava Society honored him in 1947 with the title "Bhaktivedanta." In 1950, at the age of fifty-four, Srila Prabhupada retired from married life, and four years later he adopted the vanaprastha (retired) order to devote more time to his studies and writing. Srila Prabhupada traveled to the holy city of Vrndavana, where he lived in very humble circumstances in the historic medieval temple of Radha-Damodara. There he engaged for several years in deep study and writing.

 

perhaps a few ideas may stand out on how a continued progress furthers in knowledge and understanding, by example of course.

 

So if the leaders are sitting around telling every body what everybody needs to do, because the old teacher said to do it, then what progress is being led; hence the young often have the ignited intent to further the progress, as the old words can be absorbed must quicker now and before the new is old enough to walk, they can be carrying the load in the trust our teachers should be encouraging.

 

If the power is held by the top without the intent of the total (good); then have then sit with us a while.

 

each are but dust unless becoming firm within the pyramid of truth

[cbrahma]

 

Some of the devotees I was talking about are on their second or third 'guru'. Do you think they are 'guru fanatics'? They often took another 'initiation' just because they were pressured from above to do so. Others have a guru they really like, but do not see him as an absolute authority on everything. Yet another group have gurus which are quite reasonable. But they all know what is important: the mission. I associate with these people every day. Directly and through the web.

Sounds like a mess and you believe this is Prabhupada's mission to have gurus just cause one is forced?

[Kulapavana]

 

Sounds like a mess and you believe this is Prabhupada's mission to have gurus just cause one is forced?

 

That part is not what Prabhupada would have liked. The mess is there now, made by some egotistical and manipulative disciples of Prabhupada. It will not be like that forever. Most of these 'gurus' are being ignored by the more mature devotees. Yet, there are also gurus I consider legitimate, useful, and very inspiring. So it is a mixed bag.

 

Anyway, Krsna is in charge and He will force the changes.

[cbrahma]

 

That part is not what Prabhupada would have liked. The mess is there now, made by some egotistical and manipulative disciples of Prabhupada. It will not be like that forever. Most of these 'gurus' are being ignored by the more mature devotees. Yet, there are also gurus I consider legitimate, useful, and very inspiring. So it is a mixed bag.

 

Anyway, Krsna is in charge and He will force the changes.

These gurus are authorized by the GBC - that is their claim. This is not how gurus should be selected. It isn't a post one applies for and then gets approved. Prabhupada would be furious.

[Kulapavana]

 

These gurus are authorized by the GBC - that is their claim. This is not how gurus should be selected. It isn't a post one applies for and then gets approved. Prabhupada would be furious.

 

I'm not so sure about that. Prabhupada had an idea at one time to hold exams for the Bhaktivedanta title as a qualification to be a guru:

 

68-12-03 Letter: Hamsaduta

" Another examination will be held sometimes in 1971 on the four books, Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, and Nectar of Devotion. One who will pass this examination will be awarded with the title of Bhaktivedanta. I want that all of my spiritual sons and daughters will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta, so that the family transcendental diploma will continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program. "

 

That program was never put in place, but the idea (and thus a sanction), of passing some sort of a benchmark test to be a guru, is clearly something he introduced in Iskcon.

[ce moi]

 

Lord only knows how much I love people that speak in such a plain straightforward way! And the fact that I totally agree with him makes it even that much more enjoyable!

--------------

 

Prabhupada's Way or the Highway!

BY: GOVINDA DASA

 

Jun 24, USA (SUN) —

Prabhus! What is this talk about the Modernist's way or the Guru's way or the middle way? I don't know about you, but I joined the movement in the early seventies because of Srila Prabhupada. I chose his way.

 

If someone does not like that, what are they doing here? Heavy words you may say, but think about it. How many possible ways are there? I remember a joke I read - If there were ten 'new agers' in a room there would be fifteen different philosophies (ways)!

 

Either we are here because we want to follow Srila Prabhupada's way or we are here to cause trouble. It is as simple as that, folks. The 'Pro Choicers' would have us believe that Srila Prabhupada's instructions are too complicated for our little brains and intelligence. But they are lying. They are complicating things to confuse us. Prabhupada's way is simple. In our hearts we all know that!

 

Our history is full of devotees who wanted to do things their way. See how many philosophical deviations / murders / abuses of children / cover-ups / managerial miss-directions / College Going Gurus / changes to our books, ad infinitum have happened and are happening in ISKCON.

 

They are all lead by devotees who wanted to do things their way.

 

I say it is about time we cleaned this movement up. Those who want to do it their way should do just that. They should set up their own movement. They could call it - ISK-CONS International Society for Krishna Cons - The Pros and the Cons. A whole society for people who are against ISKCON - the Conners, ISKCOners.

 

For that is what they are. Let's not be sentimental about it. Either you are Pro Prabhupada or you are Pro Choice! If you think that you know better, then do it yourself. SOMEWHERE ELSE. !!!!!

 

I am sick of hearing 'O ISKCON is not the same anymore.' They are right! It is not the same because of these people changing everything that they can get away with.

 

Where will we be in ten years time if we are thinking like this now?

 

All the devotees who are loyal to Srila Prabhupada should stand up and be counted. The 'pro choicers' should be asked to leave and form their own movement or be humble and accept Srila Prabhupada's way.

 

Govinda das

 

 

 

What does it all means in these repeated time-loops of just few years now?

Are we on Earth?

or under the?

or inside the BIG MOON ?

 

btw.. what is that your way, op?

 

..and WHO IS that YOU ?

[theist]

 

What does it all means in these repeated time-loops of just few years now?

Are we on Earth?

or under the?

or inside the BIG MOON ?

 

btw.. what is that your way, op?

 

..and WHO IS that YOU ?

 

First locate and then identify yourself lost soul, then you can worry about who I am.

[Sarva gattah]

 

One day, when the corrupt old-timers now in GBC leave this world, these devotees will take over. They are not ex-hippie power junkie pseudo-sannyasis. They are practical, sincere devotees who understand the past mistakes and know the needs of the present day people. That is why I am optimistic about Prabhupada's mission. Prabhupada's 'children' are the brake. When his 'grand-children' take over, it will be a completely different Iskcon, IMO much closer to what Prabhupada intended.

 

The tree will always be shaken and the rotten fruit will fall of therefore we must never forget the motto of Lord Caitanya which is patita-pavana. Everyone will be tested whether they came in 1966 or come in 2066.

It is all coming from the heart based on the intensity of our sincerity and genuin prayers. The point is those sincere prayers in a hapless state at the lotus feet of Lord Krishna, must ALWAYS go on otherwise one will fall down, be him a pot washer, sannyasi, Guru or second generation 'grand-children'

Frankly, the first generation did amazing preaching, I travelled with Buddhimanta Prabhu and his dedication, and spiritual potency was amazing. Even those who did have difficulty like Madhudvisa and Hari Sauri, both ex-Swami's, have used their failures as something to learn from and pass on to others.

I don't fully agree with your attitude towards the first generation. The problem was immaturity and arrogance due to that immaturity which is something we have to learn from. There is a saying

'Often failure is the pillar of success'

All pioneers go through difficulties in establishing a society, look at the America's and Australia. ISKCON pioneers are no different; it will take time to 'grow' in a Western Culture of materialism and mundane religions

On top of all that, when Prabhupada came to Australia in 1971, the average age of his disciples was 19 years of age. I was initiated in 1972 at the age of 17 years of age. When Madhudvisa (Swami) came in 1972, we all thought this 'old' devotee was coming to Australia. Old?? He was 24 years of age for pets sake!

Yes, a lot of mistakes were made due to immaturity and some forgetting where they had came from within western society, only to be become puffed up ISKCON bullies, but there were also many dedicated humble devotees as well, who were not strong enough nor mature during the 1980s to challenge the 11 ‘masters’

But because of there sincerity from within the heart, the lie did not last and the rebuilding and attempts to mature continue to this day.

[cbrahma]

 

I'm not so sure about that. Prabhupada had an idea at one time to hold exams for the Bhaktivedanta title as a qualification to be a guru:

 

68-12-03 Letter: Hamsaduta

" Another examination will be held sometimes in 1971 on the four books, Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, and Nectar of Devotion. One who will pass this examination will be awarded with the title of Bhaktivedanta. I want that all of my spiritual sons and daughters will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta, so that the family transcendental diploma will continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program. "

 

That program was never put in place, but the idea (and thus a sanction), of passing some sort of a benchmark test to be a guru, is clearly something he introduced in Iskcon.

 

When it became painfully obvious to most of us that these men were in fact not pure then they began their system of watering down the position of acarya. Gurus do sometimes fall down, they said. In other words they sometimes cheat, make mistakes, are illusioned and have imperfect senses. This philosophy did not come into being overnight because NOBODY in 1978 would have accepted it but was gradually introduced... Janardana das (02-01-01)

</STRONG>

 

Prabhupada:. . . Now, to take such guidance means the spiritual master should also be a very perfect man. Otherwise, how can he guide? Now, here Arjuna knows that Sri Krsna is the perfect person. So therefore he is accepting Him as sisyas te ham sadhi mam tvam prapannam: I am just surrendering unto You, You self, Yourself, and You accept me as Your disciple because friendly talks cannot make a solution of the perplexity." Friendly talks may be going on for years together, but there is no solution. Here, accepting Krsna as the spiritual master means whatever Krsna will decide, he has to accept. One cannot deny the order of a spiritual master. Therefore one has to select a spiritual master whose order, carrying, you ll not commit a mistake. You see? Now, suppose if you accept a wrong person as spiritual master, and if you, if he guides you wrongly, then your whole life is spoiled. So one has to accept a spiritual master whose guidance will make his life perfect. That is the relation between spiritual master and disciple. It is not a formality. It is a great responsibility both for the disciple and for the spiritual master. And... Yes?

[cbrahma]

 

The tree will always be shaken and the rotten fruit will fall of therefore we must never forget the motto of Lord Caitanya which is patita-pavana. Everyone will be tested whether they came in 1966 or come in 2066.

It is all coming from the heart based on the intensity of our sincerity and genuin prayers. The point is those sincere prayers in a hapless state at the lotus feet of Lord Krishna, must ALWAYS go on otherwise one will fall down, be him a pot washer, sannyasi, Guru or second generation 'grand-children'

Frankly, the first generation did amazing preaching, I travelled with Buddhimanta Prabhu and his dedication, and spiritual potency was amazing. Even those who did have difficulty like Madhudvisa and Hari Sauri, both ex-Swami's, have used their failures as something to learn from and pass on to others.

I don't fully agree with your attitude towards the first generation. The problem was immaturity and arrogance due to that immaturity which is something we have to learn from. There is a saying

'Often failure is the pillar of success'

All pioneers go through difficulties in establishing a society, look at the America's and Australia. ISKCON pioneers are no different; it will take time to 'grow' in a Western Culture of materialism and mundane religions

On top of all that, when Prabhupada came to Australia in 1971, the average age of his disciples was 19 years of age. I was initiated in 1972 at the age of 17 years of age. When Madhudvisa (Swami) came in 1972, we all thought this 'old' devotee was coming to Australia. Old?? He was 24 years of age for pets sake!

Yes, a lot of mistakes were made due to immaturity and some forgetting where they had came from within western society, only to be become puffed up ISKCON bullies, but there were also many dedicated humble devotees as well, who were not strong enough nor mature during the 1980s to challenge the 11 ‘masters’

But because of there sincerity from within the heart, the lie did not last and the rebuilding and attempts to mature continue to this day.

Prabhupada would never rationalize the existence of corruption in his movement as the necessity of failure - for success -

[Sarva gattah]

 

Prabhupada would never rationalize the existence of corruption in his movement as the necessity of failure - for success -

 

You are not understanding the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Failure is the pillar of success, so especially in spiritual life, this failure is not discouraging. Even one fails in completing his spiritual course, still, there is no loss on his part".

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "As we have sometimes heard the proverb, that Failure is the pillar of success, so especially in spiritual life, this failure is not discouraging. This failure is not discouraging. Krishna says that: Even one fails in completing his spiritual course, still, there is no loss on his part". His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (05-10-08)

 

 

What Happens to a Fallen Devotee? MP3 Audo Bhagavad-gita 6.40-44