Prabhupada's Way or the Highway!

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada: ...namutra vinasas tasya vidyate, na hi kalyana-krt kascid durgatim tata gacchati.

Now, this verse we have been discussing last week that one who falls down... "Suppose one has entered for spiritual cultivation of life. Some way or other, he is not successful to complete the course.

Then what happens to him?" That was the question of Arjuna.

This is very nice question that “Suppose one enters for cultivation of spiritual life some way or other..." Sometimes we do not follow the rules and. (Break) Sometimes we are entrapped by some feminine attraction.

These are impediments. So, we may not be able to make complete progress. So Krishna says,

"My dear Arjuna," na hi kalyana-krt kascid durgatim: "Anyone who has attempted even one percent sincerely, culture of spiritual realization, he will never fall down. He will never fall down." That sincerity. Because we are weak, and the material energy is very strong, so to adopt spiritual life is more or less declare war against the material energy.

The material, the illusory energy, she is trying to curb this conditioned soul as far as possible. Now, when the conditioned soul tries to get out of her clutches by spiritual advancement of knowledge, oh, she becomes more stringent. Yes. She wants to test, "How much this person is sincere?" So there will be so many allurement offered by the material energy.

Now, there is a story. There are many stories. One of them I am citing. It is very interesting. Visvamitra Muni. Visvamitra Muni, he was a great king, ksatriya, but his priest, Vasistha Muni, he had great spiritual power. So, he renounced his kingdom. He wanted to advance. He was kingly, royal order, but still, he wanted to advance in the spiritual orders. So, he adopted yoga process, meditation.

That time it was possible for adopting this process, yoga process. So he was meditating in such a way that the Indra, who was the king of heaven, he thought, "This man is trying to occupy my post."

As there is competition... This is also... Heaven means that is also material world. So this competition--no businessman wants another businessman go ahead. He wants to curb down. Competition of price, quality. Similarly, that Indra, he thought that

"This man is so strongly meditating, it may be that I may be deposed and he come to my seat." Then he arranged one of his society girls, Menaka, to go there and allure this muni. So when Menaka approached that rsi, Visvamitra Rsi, he was meditating. And simply by the sound of her bangles, she (he) could understand,

"There is some woman." And as soon as he saw there was heavenly, celestial beauty, he was captivated. Then there was a result, that a great... Sakuntala. Perhaps some of you may know. There is a book made by Kalidasa, Sakuntala. This Sakuntala is supposed to be the most beautiful girl in the world, and she was born by this combination of Visvamitra Muni and Menaka.

So when this girl was born, then Visvamitra thought,

"Oh, I was advancing in my spiritual culture, and again I have been entrapped."

So, he was going out. At the same time, his wife Menaka brought this girl before her, and little child is always attractive. She showed that

"Oh, you have got such a nice girl, such beautiful girl, and you are going away? No, no. You should take care."

So there is a picture, very nice. That is a very famous picture. That Menaka is showing Visvamitra the girl, and the muni is like that,

"No more show me."

Yes. There is a picture. That is... Then he went away. So there are chances of failure. There are chances of failure. Just like a great sage like Visvamitra Muni, he also failed, failed for the time being. But Krsna says that this failure is not, I mean to say, unsuccessful. As we have sometimes the proverb, that "Failure is the pillar of success," so especially in the spiritual life, this failure is not discouraging. This failure is not discouraging.

So, Krsna says that "Even one fails in completing his spiritual course, still, there is no loss on his part." Partha naiva iha. Iha means in this world. Na amutra. Amutra means next world. Vinasas tasya vidyate: "He will never vanquish." Vinasas tasya vidyate, na hi kalyana-krt: "Anyone who takes this auspicious line of spiritual culture," kascid durgatim tata gacchati, "he'll never fall down." Yes. And why? Now,

 

 

prapya punya-krtam lokan

usitva sasvatih samah

sucinam srimatam gehe

 

yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate

 

 

Abhijayate. He says that this failure yogi... One who is successful, he enters into the kingdom of God. That is a different thing. But one who is a failed student, what happens to him? Now, prapya punya-krtam lokan: "He enters into the planets where pious living entities are allowed to enter." That means he gets into the higher planets. There are many planets within the universe, and the higher planets, there are more comforts, more duration of life, persons are more pious, religious, godly.

As you make progress to the higher planets, these facilities are there, thousand times better than this planet. So, Krsna says "Even if he is failure, still, he goes to such planets where pious men are elevated." Prapya punya-krtam lokan, and usitva sasvatih samah. And he remains there for a long duration of time.

Now, in the heavenly kingdom, it is said that our six months is... Six months are equal to their one day. And similarly, they live there for ten thousand years. This description we get from Vedic literatures. Just like in the Bhagavad-Gita, you have got the duration of life of Brahma. That is the highest planet. So Krsna says that "After... Even if he is a failure, he gets promotion to the higher planets." But in the higher planets, you cannot remain for all the time. Ksine punye punah martya-lokam visanti:

"When your pious balance is finished, then you are again fallen in this earth." Ksine punye punah martya-lokam visanti. Martya-lokam means, this martya-lokam, this earth.

Now, even when he comes back here, He says, Lord Krsna says, "He gets his birth..." Sucinam srimatam gehe yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate. He takes his birth in a family, two kinds of families. One family, srimatam. Srimatam means very rich family, very rich family.

So one who takes his birth in a very rich family, it should be understood that he was certainly a very pious man in his previous life. By good work, by pious work, we get.

In our next life, we get facilities, four kinds of facilities.

What are they?

Now, janma, aisvarya, sruta, sri. Janma, aisvarya, sruta, sri. Janma means to get birth in very aristocratic family, royal family, lord family, rich family, janma. Or acquires large extent of wealth, janmaisvarya-sruta. Sruta means becomes very learned scholar.

So one who is learned scholar, it is to be understood that it is due to his past deeds. One who is rich man, it is to be understood that it is due to his pious acts in his last life. Janmaisvarya-sruta-sri. Sri means beauty. And one who is very beautiful, either male or female, it is to be understood that this is the result of his or her pious work in the past lives.

So here it is said that sucinam srimatam gehe yoga-bhrasto... Sucinam means pious family. Pious family means brahmanas. They are suci. Suci means always pure. Suci means... A brahmana, means a cultured brahmana, they are always pure. Their habits, their behavior--everything is pure. That is called sucinam. That is a greater facility. And srimatam, rich, rich family.

So the yoga-bhrasta, after living for many, many days in the higher planets where pious people have entered, then, when he again comes to this earth, he gets birth in a, either in a brahmana family, sucinam, or in a great, rich, mercantile family. Sucinam srimata... Srimatam is generally meant: a rich mercantile family. Just like you have got in your country Rockefeller family, Ford family.

There are many. In India also there are Birla family, Bamar(?) family. Every country, there are rich families. So either in a purified family, just like brahmanas, or in a rich family... So at least, those who sincerely begin spiritual life, so their next life is guaranteed as human life, human form of life, for many days.

So those who are rich in this world, or those who have got birth in a very, I mean to say, pious family, brahmana family, they should understand that "It is God's grace that I have got my birth with such, so much facilities of life."

 

Why sucinam?

 

In a pious family one gets the chance of spiritual advancement. I shall say practically, from my whole life. I was fortunate to get my, I mean to say, birth, in a very pious family. Yes.

My father was very pious man, and I wanted to imitate him in my childhood. Of course, our family was not very poor, but we were not very rich men. But my father was very pious man. So, he was worshiping Krsna. So in my childhood, when I was five or six years old, I requested my father that "Father, give me this Deity. I shall worship."

So father purchased for me little Krsna, Radha, he gave me, and I was imitating. Whatever foodstuff I was getting, I was offering to Krsna and eating. In this way, I got my life developed. And there was a temple in our neighbourhood. So, I was seeing the Krsna Deity. Oh, I was thinking... I still remember. I was standing for hours together.

So, in this way, practically we can understand that these facilities are given by the Lord. The Lord is always prepared to give us facility. Simply He wants to see that we are sincere. That's all. There is nice verse in Srimad-Bhagavatam.

 

 

 

tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambujam harer

bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi

yatra kva vabhadram abhud amusya kim

 

ko vartha apto 'bhajatam sva-dharmatah

 

 

Abhajatam sva-dharmatah, yes. The purport of this verse is that tyaktva sva-

dharmam. Sva-dharmam means every particular person has got his prescribed duty of life, every particular person. Whatever he may be, in whatever country, or whatever society, everyone has got his some designated duty, that "You have to do this."

Now here it is said that if he gives up his duty, prescribed duty, and by sentiment, by association, or by craziness, or any way, he takes surrender unto Krsna, people may say,

"Oh, these people are crazy."

All right, even crazy, some way or other, if he takes shelter unto Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead... When I say Krsna that means God. Then what happens? Tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambujam hareh.

By sentiment or by any reason... There may be many reasons if one takes shelter of Krsna, the Supreme Lord. But bhajana, while he was worshiping or prosecuting spiritual rules and regulations, apakva, he does not become mature, but somehow or other falls down. Tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambujam harer bhajann. Bhajana means worshiping, apakva, immature, and falls down. So Narada says in this Bhagavata, tatra ko va and abhadram abhud amusya kim:

"So what is there inauspicious for him there?

Suppose he has fallen down. There is no inauspicity. But a person who does not approach God, but regularly makes his duties perfectly, what does he get?

What does he get, religious? He does not get any benefit of his life. But a person, even he falls down, because he has taken shelter of the Supreme Lord, "Oh, he is better."

 

COMMENT - Of course as devotees, even if we are fallen, we are not interested in taking birth on the heavenly planets or rich pious famlies because such opulant conditions makes it hard to rember Krishna. Better to be poor and struggling and still remembering Krishna than being rich, famous and wordly and not remember Krishna

 

 

 

[theist]

Fallen and corrupt are not the same thing. Arjuna asked about the fate of the unsuccessful yogi, "Does he not perish like a riven cloud with no position in any sphere."

 

Krishna:"One who does good my friend is never overcome by evil........"

 

This is someone whose good effort got cut short by time in this body or who got sidetracked due to wordly mindness. It is not referring to fake saviors and pompous priests who misdirected the flock for their own selfish gain.

[Kulapavana]

 

Yes, a lot of mistakes were made due to immaturity and some forgetting where they had came from within western society, only to be become puffed up ISKCON bullies, but there were also many dedicated humble devotees as well, who were not strong enough nor mature during the 1980s to challenge the 11 ‘masters’

But because of there sincerity from within the heart, the lie did not last and the rebuilding and attempts to mature continue to this day.

 

I agree that the first generation of Western devotees worked very hard to bring KC to people like myself - I am very, very grateful for that. But at one point they - as a group and with notable exceptions - turned into more of an obstacle than help.

 

And the lie has not died yet, because we still have so many of these fake sannyasis with silk underwear, clinging to power at all cost, still promoting fake understanding of guru tattva and neglecting the social issues.

[Kulapavana]

 

Prabhupada would never rationalize the existence of corruption in his movement as the necessity of failure - for success -

 

I think Prabhupada saw corruption in his movement (and there was plenty of that in his days) as an inevitable byproduct of his disciples conditioning. He actually tried to use it in spreading of his movement - motivating his materialistic disciples also with power, position, and distinction. They were his big monkeys. Why do you think he gave these people sannyasa? Because they were ready? LOL! He gave them what they wanted, so they would give him what he wanted: the facility to spread Lord Caitanya's movement. For him they collected money to build temples, produced and distributed his books, preached all over the world. And most (if not all) of the leaders he appointed were enjoying the perks of their position to the fullest.

[cbrahma]

 

You are not understanding the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Failure is the pillar of success, so especially in spiritual life, this failure is not discouraging. Even one fails in completing his spiritual course, still, there is no loss on his part".

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "As we have sometimes heard the proverb, that Failure is the pillar of success, so especially in spiritual life, this failure is not discouraging. This failure is not discouraging. Krishna says that: Even one fails in completing his spiritual course, still, there is no loss on his part". His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (05-10-08)

 

 

What Happens to a Fallen Devotee? MP3 Audo Bhagavad-gita 6.40-44

No doubt you are one of the rationalizing elite, making excuses for the damage so many pseudo-devotees have done to Prabhupada's movement.

Prabhupada was not tolerant of deviation in his movement. His standards were the highest, especially when it comes to the spiritual master.

 

“If one considers the spiritual master an ordinary human being, one is doomed... One may argue by saying that, since the spiritual master's relatives and men of his neighborhood consider him an ordinary human being, what is the fault on the part of the disciple to consider the spiritual master an ordinary human being?... He Must be accepted as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead...Even a slight deviation from this understanding can create disaster in the disciple's Vedic studies and austerities.”

S.B. 7.15.26

 

 

 

“Mistake, illusion, cheating, and imperfection, which are the flaws of all conditioned souls...

The liberated souls are above those flaws

.”

 

 

S.B. 1.3.24

 

[cbrahma]

 

I think Prabhupada saw corruption in his movement (and there was plenty of that in his days) as an inevitable byproduct of his disciples conditioning. He actually tried to use it in spreading of his movement - motivating his materialistic disciples also with power, position, and distinction. They were his big monkeys. Why do you think he gave these people sannyasa? Because they were ready? LOL! He gave them what they wanted, so they would give him what he wanted: the facility to spread Lord Caitanya's movement. For him they collected money to build temples, produced and distributed his books, preached all over the world. And most (if not all) of the leaders he appointed were enjoying the perks of their position to the fullest.

Your speculations about Prabhupada's inmost thoughts are inconsequential.

Did he say it? Did he do it? He was straightforward. Trying to read ambiguity where it doesn't exist is rascaldom, to use his favorite word.

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>“If one considers the spiritual master an ordinary human being, one is doomed... One may argue by saying that, since the spiritual master's relatives and men of his neighborhood consider him an ordinary human being, what is the fault on the part of the disciple to consider the spiritual master an ordinary human being?... He Must be accepted as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead...Even a slight deviation from this understanding can create disaster in the disciple's Vedic studies and austerities.”

S.B. 7.15.26

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Kulapavana]

 

Your speculations about Prabhupada's inmost thoughts are inconsequential.

Did he say it? Did he do it? He was straightforward. Trying to read ambiguity where it doesn't exist is rascaldom, to use his favorite word.

 

He gave sannyasa to completely unqualified people. Why? He knew very well that in his movement being a sannyasi was an automatic ticket to power, fame, and priviledge. Why would he do that knowing these people were nowhere near ready to be sannyasis?

[cbrahma]

 

He gave sannyasa to completely unqualified people. Why? He knew very well that in his movement being a sannyasi was an automatic ticket to power, fame, and priviledge. Why would he do that knowing these people were nowhere near ready to be sannyasis?

You're blaming the corruption of the sannyasis on Prabhupada? You really are despicable. The brahamanas fell down. For all intents and purposes ISKCON has fallen down. Your point being?

In an amazing short time he managed to take dirty drug-addicted hippies and turn them into pujaris who followed the principles and performed deity worship at a high standard. I know because I was there.

You continually rationalize the inadequacy of gurus and now you are criticizing the acarya.

[Kulapavana]

 

You're blaming the corruption of the sannyasis on Prabhupada? You really are despicable. The brahamanas fell down. For all intents and purposes ISKCON has fallen down. Your point being?

In an amazing short time he managed to take dirty drug-addicted hippies and turn them into pujaris who followed the principles and performed deity worship at a high standard. I know because I was there.

You continually rationalize the inadequacy of gurus and now you are criticizing the acarya.

 

Before you go beserk, read the last few posts again, yours included. You started by claiming that Prabhupada did not tolerate corruption. To which I replied that there certainly was corruption during his time. Nowhere did I say that I blame Prabhupada for this. Quite the opposite. I said it was due to conditioning of his disciples.

[Sarva gattah]

 

This is someone whose good effort got cut short by time in this body or who got sidetracked due to wordly mindness.

 

It is not referring to fake saviors and pompous priests who misdirected the flock for their own selfish gain.

 

Note the above two sentences

 

Actually wordly mindness and selfish gain ARE the samething.

 

Fallen and corrupt is the same because becoming lusty, selfish, envious, dictatorial, thief, manipulator or even a demon like jay and vijay is fallen who eventually became corrupt in there different material bodily manifestations.

 

Infact the biggest demons are fallen devotees

[Bishadi]

 

First locate and then identify yourself lost soul, then you can worry about who I am.

 

seems you are being questioned as to your capacity.

 

If memory serves it seems credentials are all that is important in the guru lineage of this site.

 

So unless you have proof of walking on water; you just a man!

[cbrahma]

 

Before you go beserk, read the last few posts again, yours included. You started by claiming that Prabhupada did not tolerate corruption. To which I replied that there certainly was corruption during his time. Nowhere did I say that I blame Prabhupada for this. Quite the opposite. I said it was due to conditioning of his disciples.

So what's your point?

[Kulapavana]

 

So what's your point?

 

The point is that Prabhupada knew about the corruption in his movement, saw it as inevitable given the fallen nature of his disciples, and tried to use it in Krsna's service.

 

IMO the Iskcon of today is not that much different from Iskcon in Prabhupada's times. Actually, we might even have fewer scandals now than in the 70's. I think Iskcon bottomed out in the 80's and 90's and is now getting better.

[theist]

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

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This is someone whose good effort got cut short by time in this body or who got sidetracked due to wordly mindness.

It is not referring to fake saviors and pompous priests who misdirected the flock for their own selfish gain.

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Note the above two sentences

 

Actually wordly mindness and selfish gain ARE the samething.

 

Fallen and corrupt is the same because becoming lusty, selfish, envious, dictatorial, thief, manipulator or even a demon like jay and vijay is fallen who eventually became corrupt in there different material bodily manifestations.

 

Infact the biggest demons are fallen devotees

 

 

 

Well Sarva I wish to vigoriously but respectfully disagree. Please consider the following points.

 

Yes wordly mindedness must be due to desire for selfish gain. But in your analysis you ignored the context of my sentences as a whole. Here is what I said again.

 

 

Even someone who was a faithful disciple and always did did his sadhana daily but died before he attained perfection was held back by selfishness worldly mindness. Everyone who is chanting hare krishna in a state below suddha nama is holding on to selfish desires which is what characterizes worldly mindedness.

 

The faithful disciple who is trying his best to overcome his past conditioning but occasionaly stumbles and falls is actually to be considered saintly. Krishna says He will preserve what they have and carry what they lack. That is His grace.

 

The second sentence describes fake saviors (false gurus) and showboat priests who are only after drawing cheap adoration unto themselves and have no problem adulterating the siddhanta of transcendence with religiousness and by doing so increase the perceived need for themselves as mediators between God and man and by so doing actually stand in the door to the chamber of God neither entering themselves or allowing others to pass through.

 

False gurus and pompous priests are both demonic mentalities dressed in the garb of holy men and are therefore immensely dangerous as they have positioned themselves to misdirect the innocent away from actually God consciousness.

 

The wolve on the hill who is eyeing the flock of sheep is dangerous and must be watched but the most dangerous is the wolve who clothed as a member of the flock has entered into the flock and is devouring them little by little and without being suspect.

 

Now how is it one can really consider these two types as being the same?

[theist]

 

seems you are being questioned as to your capacity.

 

If memory serves it seems credentials are all that is important in the guru lineage of this site.

 

So unless you have proof of walking on water; you just a man!

 

Walk on water? Hell, I am not even a strong swimmer anymore. Any distance past 50 yards and I will drown.

 

"glub glub"

[cbrahma]

 

The point is that Prabhupada knew about the corruption in his movement, saw it as inevitable given the fallen nature of his disciples, and tried to use it in Krsna's service.

 

IMO the Iskcon of today is not that much different from Iskcon in Prabhupada's times. Actually, we might even have fewer scandals now than in the 70's. I think Iskcon bottomed out in the 80's and 90's and is now getting better.

As I've said before I'm not interested in what you think Prabhupada knew or thought and you are absolutely wrong in your comparison between old ISKCON and new ISKCON since I have experienced both. You have a need to relativize it because you are a traditional religionist which is sooooo boring and sooooo dry and sooooo cheap.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Note the above two sentences

 

Actually wordly mindness and selfish gain ARE the samething.

 

"Fallen and corrupt is the same because becoming lusty, selfish, envious, dictatorial, thief, manipulator or even a demon like jay and vijay is fallen who eventually became corrupt in there different material bodily manifestations.

 

Infact the biggest demons are fallen devotees"

 

Well Sarva I wish to vigoriously but respectfully disagree. Please consider the following points.

 

Yes wordly mindedness must be due to desire for selfish gain. But in your analysis you ignored the context of my sentences as a whole. Here is what I said again.

 

Even someone who was a faithful disciple and always did did his sadhana daily but died before he attained perfection was held back by selfishness worldly mindness. Everyone who is chanting hare krishna in a state below suddha nama is holding on to selfish desires which is what characterizes worldly mindedness.

 

The faithful disciple who is trying his best to overcome his past conditioning but occasionaly stumbles and falls is actually to be considered saintly. Krishna says He will preserve what they have and carry what they lack. That is His grace.

 

The second sentence describes fake saviors (false gurus) and showboat priests who are only after drawing cheap adoration unto themselves and have no problem adulterating the siddhanta of transcendence with religiousness and by doing so increase the perceived need for themselves as mediators between God and man and by so doing actually stand in the door to the chamber of God neither entering themselves or allowing others to pass through.

 

False gurus and pompous priests are both demonic mentalities dressed in the garb of holy men and are therefore immensely dangerous as they have positioned themselves to misdirect the innocent away from actually God consciousness.

 

The wolve on the hill who is eyeing the flock of sheep is dangerous and must be watched but the most dangerous is the wolve who clothed as a member of the flock has entered into the flock and is devouring them little by little and without being suspect.

 

Now how is it one can really consider these two types as being the same?

 

Thanks Theist, that's clearer and well explained

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada - "But bhajana, while he was worshiping or prosecuting spiritual rules and regulations, apakva, he does not become mature, but somehow or other falls down. Tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambujam harer bhajann. Bhajana means worshiping, apakva, immature, and falls down. So Narada says in this Bhagavata, tatra ko va and abhadram abhud amusya kim:

"So what is there inauspicious for him there?

Suppose he has fallen down. There is no inauspicity. But a person who does not approach God, but regularly makes his duties perfectly, what does he get?

What does he get, religious? He does not get any benefit of his life. But a person, even he falls down, because he has taken shelter of the Supreme Lord, "Oh, he is better."

 

COMMENT - Of course as devotees, even if we are fallen, we are not interested in taking birth on the heavenly planets or rich pious famlies because such opulant conditions makes it hard to rember Krishna. Better to be poor and struggling and still remembering Krishna than being rich, famous and wordly and not remember Krishna

 

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Just one other point, the original 11 'masters' of those who have fallen, are not Demons as some foolishly and immaturely say. Demons would have cleverly and deceitfully lasted more than 10 years. They were sincere men who became intoxicated by the glitter of disciple worship and opulence, so I hope your 'second' sentence does not refer to them however, ignorance is no excuse

[Kulapavana]

 

As I've said before I'm not interested in what you think Prabhupada knew or thought and you are absolutely wrong in your comparison between old ISKCON and new ISKCON since I have experienced both. You have a need to relativize it because you are a traditional religionist which is sooooo boring and sooooo dry and sooooo cheap.

 

you do not think Prabhupada cheapened sannyasa by giving it freely to unqualified people? It was not relativism? He wanted them to preach so he facilitated their overblown egos. Sure, that was not a traditionalist approach, and it certainly made sannyasa relative. And it is still relative, just look at the more recent sannyasi scandals.

[theist]

 

Just one other point, the original 11 'masters' of those who have fallen, are not Demons as some foolishly and immaturely say. Demons would have cleverly and deceitfully lasted more than 10 years. They were sincere men who became intoxicated by the glitter of disciple worship and opulence, so I hope your 'second' sentence does not refer to them however, ignorance is no excuse

 

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Yeah I was thinking of a certain mental type that is not restricted to them by any means buy I consider what they did as demonic without question and they were in my mind when I wrote that. In january or maybe feb of 1978 Ramesvara came visiting my local temple and took the opputunity to ask him about all these rumors I was hearing. The initial understanding was that Prabhupada had left what is now known as ritvik but suddenly rumors of the 11 chosen ones started circulating. I wanted this cleared up and here was my chance to hear it straight from one of these 11.

 

So I humbly asked Ramesvar what was the truth of the matter. And that is when I learned of their demonic plot.he said only 11 men on the planet were fit to give initiations into krKshna consciousness!!! He claimed they had been appointed to that post by Srila Prabhupada and then he added,"I have a tape to prove it, unfortunately I left it in LA."

My mind was sent reeling because simulataneously I was hearing a quote from a CC puport where Srila Prabhupada states Acarya is not elected/appointed he is self effulgent. That is one time in my life when I knew Supersoul was speaking to me as He gave me the ears to hear.

 

I was shocked by what I was hearing from Ramesvar. I had known him to be a very intellectual person and thought of highly but hear he was talking like a new kanistha. I could see his motivation and I knew he was making his move to capture Srila Prabhupada's movement. Rather he consciously knew this himself or not is irrelevant because it exposed a demonic desire of his that Krishna was now fulfilling.

 

That had to be the case with the other ten also IMO. To me they were now all exposed as cheaters and highly dangerous men. Fortunately for me there was a sane voice in my neighborhood who kept teaching what Prabhupada had taught him about the Parampara. I haven't taken an Iskcon preacher seriously since that day.

 

I don't doubt the large amount of service that was done by all of the them but I don't turn a blind eye to their demonic activities also. Some of them were child rapers and all of them were trying to steal Prabhupada's mission which I see as even worse than child rape.

[suchandra]

 

you do not think Prabhupada cheapened sannyasa by giving it freely to unqualified people? It was not relativism? He wanted them to preach so he facilitated their overblown egos. Sure, that was not a traditionalist approach, and it certainly made sannyasa relative. And it is still relative, just look at the more recent sannyasi scandals.

This is a bit confusing saying, "to unqualified people".

Fact is that there was nobody else, no other people more qualified were around.

So, you might say, why did he just refuse to give them sannyas?

Could be that the result would have been that they would have left anyway, and additionally criticising Prabhupada for not having given them all facilities.

Something like why does God create a whole planet for human beings knowing very well that these human beings are not qualified for actually doing something useful. Instead turning this planet into hell. Why God is so foolish to create everything for such rascals, giving them so much power to exploit and cause havoc?

[Kulapavana]

 

This is a bit confusing saying, "to unqualified people".

Fact is that there was nobody else, no other people more qualified were around.

So, you might say, why did he just refuse to give them sannyas?

Could be that the result would have been that they would have left anyway, and criticizing Prabhupada for not having given them all facilities.

Something like why does God create a whole planet for human beings knowing very well that these human beings are not qualified for actually doing something useful. Instead turning this planet into hell. Why God is so foolish to create everything for such rascals, giving them so much power to exploit and cause havoc?

 

I honestly think that Prabhupada used their overblown egos to make them work harder for Krsna's mission, but I also accept your point. Based on some accounts, he gave sannyasa to Kirtanananda just to save him from his homosexual tendencies, and gave sannyasa to some devotees on the verge of blooping just to keep them in the movement a little bit longer.

 

Thus he traded the traditional sanctity and gravity of the sannyasa ashrama for some much needed service from these people.

[Kulapavana]

 

...I humbly asked Ramesvar what was the truth of the matter. And that is when I learned of their demonic plot.he said only 11 men on the planet were fit to give initiations into krKshna consciousness!!! He claimed they had been appointed to that post by Srila Prabhupada and then he added,"I have a tape to prove it, unfortunately I left it in LA."

 

My mind was sent reeling because simulataneously I was hearing a quote from a CC puport where Srila Prabhupada states Acarya is not elected/appointed he is self effulgent.

 

It all started with this incorrect assumption:

 

1. Only God-like uttama-adhikaris can give initiation.

 

Step 2. Prabhupada authorized me to initiate...

 

Step 3. Because 1 and 2 are true, I must be a God-like uttama adhikari!!

 

These people actually believed in all the above. It was not a demonic plot. It was just a case of ignorance and material desires for fame, profit, and distinction.

 

Many devotees still have the illusion that #1 is absolutly true. Thus they invent all kinds of bogus theories to explain REALITY.

[greg]

I do agree with govinda,keep things as they are it works...( did work ) prior to the changes every tom ,dick and harry implemented...

[greg]

i agree with govinda it works as it is ( it did worked) till every tom ,dick and harry tried to change every thing!!!!!

[Sarva gattah]

 

Yeah I was thinking of a certain mental type that is not restricted to them by any means buy I consider what they did as demonic without question and they were in my mind when I wrote that. In january or maybe feb of 1978 Ramesvara came visiting my local temple and took the opputunity to ask him about all these rumors I was hearing. The initial understanding was that Prabhupada had left what is now known as ritvik but suddenly rumors of the 11 chosen ones started circulating. I wanted this cleared up and here was my chance to hear it straight from one of these 11.

 

So I humbly asked Ramesvar what was the truth of the matter. And that is when I learned of their demonic plot.he said only 11 men on the planet were fit to give initiations into krKshna consciousness!!! He claimed they had been appointed to that post by Srila Prabhupada and then he added,"I have a tape to prove it, unfortunately I left it in LA."

 

My mind was sent reeling because simulataneously I was hearing a quote from a CC puport where Srila Prabhupada states Acarya is not elected/appointed he is self effulgent. That is one time in my life when I knew Supersoul was speaking to me as He gave me the ears to hear.

 

I was shocked by what I was hearing from Ramesvar. I had known him to be a very intellectual person and thought of highly but hear he was talking like a new kanistha. I could see his motivation and I knew he was making his move to capture Srila Prabhupada's movement. Rather he consciously knew this himself or not is irrelevant because it exposed a demonic desire of his that Krishna was now fulfilling.

 

That had to be the case with the other ten also IMO. To me they were now all exposed as cheaters and highly dangerous men. Fortunately for me there was a sane voice in my neighborhood who kept teaching what Prabhupada had taught him about the Parampara. I haven't taken an Iskcon preacher seriously since that day.

 

I don't doubt the large amount of service that was done by all of the them but I don't turn a blind eye to their deonic activities also. Some of them were child rapers and all of them were trying to steal Prabhupada's mission which I see as even worse than child rape.

 

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No lie can live forever

 

Personally, Bhavananda, the appointed guru in our region, treated me fine and over all the 9 years his guruship, was always kind and encouraging to and never ever demanded worship off me; NOT like some others who are still on the GBC.

In fact, in all fairness to him, it was his Godbrothers, including myself, who saw him as a substitute 'Prabhupada' so to speak, and then treated him like Prabhupada, building him up to be a 'Prabhupada' we called 'Vishnupada'. His Godbrothers gave him that name; he certainly never gave it to himself.

People can say what ever they like about him, but as far as I am concerned, I saw his love for Prabhupada and his sincerity. We have to take some of the blame for it all, as the saying goes,

 

•  

  'It's not just the bad people who cause problems in the world, but rather, it is all the good people who stand by and do nothing, letting bad things happen and just go on year after year'.

  
  

Devotees new what was going on in the 80s, but did nothing. It is certainly not ‘all’ Bhavananda’s fault either; his Godbrothers lavishly glorified him first before he had any disciples.

Yes, he never ever demanded respect and worship off me, although others always would DEMAND it with threats to kick you out of the Temple if you did not fall at there feet. It was these people who were building up Bhavananda. They were very conceited, demanding, and enigmatic and no one could ever get too close to them, they always treated others impersonally and always patronised devotees and guests.

 

One of them was a real foul mouthed backside, you would go out selling books in Adelaide in 1973, came back with 160 dollars for the day, then only collect 140 smackaroos the next, he would throw all these F and C words at you for not doing better. I came very close to ringing his neck.

 

My point is, it was these people who built Bhavananda up. Sadly, this Temple President was a clever bully to those who were not submissive to him and couldn’t collect at least 160 bucks a day (In today’s money that is about 1000 dollars a day). I look back now and see he or anyone I associated with were certainly not demons, immature and childish yes, but demons? No, that’s silly. Basically they were just still kids

Anyway, I never experienced that impersonalism with Bhavananda. .

Bhavananda was not demanding like that. His Godbrothers, including myself, are to fault by taking his worship way over the top.

Once again, when Bhavananda was away from his disciples, he was a reasonable person; he never ever raised his voice in anger to me, even though he did to others.

Bhavananda never ever saw himself as a great devotee, he always new he was playing a role, believing that imitating Prabhupada was his service, he believed that in time he would become purified and gradually become stronger and stronger in his sadhana, so that he could truly act as a Guru. He told me this when he sent me to see an old friend of his and present a garland to him (The famous singer Peter Allen)

Once Ramai Swami gave a class and explained that Bhavananda was a pure devotee. Later I told Bhavananda and he told me what Ramai had said is simply not true, "I am no pure devotee, I am just trying to please Prabhupada, and one day I might become pure and qualified”. That comment proves that he should not of initiated anyone!!

So unfortunately, as years progressed, Bhavananda became more and more intoxicated by the lavish, luxurious, magnificent wealthy worship his Godbrothers set up and supported. Strongly encouraging any new devotee to follow. So gradually, he became more and more inebriated proud and arrogant than he already was.

I already new in India back in 1978 of Bhavananda's problems with homosexuality. His incident in Mayapur a few years previous was well known in India, Prabhupada new about his homosexual problems but forgave him for his fall down and he worked very hard, doing amazing service in Mayapur, to again get Prabhupada's favour who added him to the list of appointed initiating gurus.

Could it happen again? One could ask. Those questions were not ever asked back then by anyone like it is today. I did not know in 1978 if he would again have problems in that area when I was Temple commander of Vrndavana, but as early as 1982 I did know, I just new he was again having problems, I think a few of us did, I know Chittahari Prabhu did, Bhavananda confided in him. No one back then new what to do with anyone who was having a sexual problem, it was mostly ignored and never talked about.

It seemed back in those early immature years, to have a ‘hero’, and then worship him as a pure devotee, even if he is not qualified, was more important at the time than having no hero at all.

This is because the search for paragons is a natural phenomenon within human society, if we cannot find one a qualified Guru, then we unfortunately manufacture one, just like we did after Prabhupada left us, we actually carried on the Guru worship as if Prabhupada had never left.

The appointed gurus where not qualified on the level of Prabhupada, yet we would worship them anyway ON THAT LEVEL with the hope they would become qualified, that’s how innocent we were but we genuinely believed that in time, due to the purification process of Bhakti-yoga, they would become pure devotees under the test of time.

We all quoted Prabhupada to support this by saying he gave Brahmin initiating to devotees saying.

 

• “Now that I have given you Brahmin initiation, now you must become Brahmana.” All of us Godbrothers put a new twist on Prabhupada’s comment. “Now, that I have given you the authority to become initiating Guru, now you must become Guru.”
  

You know, back then I was too uneducated in Spiritual life and very insecure at the time to say anything. So I just went along with the 'chosen guru' thing, most of us naïve Australian Prabhupada disciples did because we new nothing else.

We knew no better, the oldest devotees in the movement back in 1978 were in their thirties, it was kind of an innocent way we did this, our intentions were good, there was no plan to cheat anyone, we all wanted to see ISKCON grow. It’s a shame many tried to imitate Prabhupada back then rather than simply follow him. Back then we simply didn't know any better, calling people ‘demon’ is a bit rich. Immature is a more sensible word

You know, the preaching on the streets back then was way, way better and more effective than it is today, the devotees back then were very dedicated selling books, not that they are not today however back then EVERY TEMPLE DEVOTEE AND GUEST was into selling books.

It is important to note - Back then we simply didn't know any better, calling people ‘demon’ is a bit rich. Immature is a more sensible word

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