Prabhupada's Way or the Highway!

[cbrahma]

 

It all started with this incorrect assumption:

 

1. Only God-like uttama-adhikaris can give initiation.

 

Step 2. Prabhupada authorized me to initiate...

 

Step 3. Because 1 and 2 are true, I must be a God-like uttama adhikari!!

 

These people actually believed in all the above. It was not a demonic plot. It was just a case of ignorance and material desires for fame, profit, and distinction.

 

Many devotees still have the illusion that #1 is absolutly true. Thus they invent all kinds of bogus theories to explain REALITY.

2. is FALSE.

[cbrahma]

 

This is a bit confusing saying, "to unqualified people".

Fact is that there was nobody else, no other people more qualified were around.

So, you might say, why did he just refuse to give them sannyas?

Could be that the result would have been that they would have left anyway, and additionally criticising Prabhupada for not having given them all facilities.

Something like why does God create a whole planet for human beings knowing very well that these human beings are not qualified for actually doing something useful. Instead turning this planet into hell. Why God is so foolish to create everything for such rascals, giving them so much power to exploit and cause havoc?

We're supposed to believe that Prabhupad deliberately gave power to people he knew would either be child-molestors or harbor child-molestors and he did this to spread the mission. Right. This must also be true of Sridara Maharaj and NM because they definitely knew about the scandals. NM certainly did nothing to circumvent these crimes until the law stepped in.

[theist]

So who wrote that 'No lie can live forever' ? Anyway i don't care a fig who had a nice relationship with Bhavananda. Nice to that person maybe but a raper of little boys from what I hear. Serial killers are most often very nice to their neighbors. So what?

 

It is important to note - Back then we simply didn't know any better, calling people ‘demon’ is a bit rich. Immature is a more sensible word

You didn't know any better but many people did and these same people you were worshipping were at that time calling the people that would not kiss their asses demons.

 

Anyway these people accepted worship as pure via mediums to Krishna even though they knew they weren't. Their victims were innocent, naive and immature but they were demons.

 

You refer to them as innocent??? Some people seem to have learned little from that most graphic, tragic episode.

[suchandra]

 

We're supposed to believe that Prabhupad deliberately gave power to people he knew would either be child-molestors or harbor child-molestors and he did this to spread the mission. Right. This must also be true of Sridara Maharaj and NM because they definitely knew about the scandals. NM certainly did nothing to circumvent these crimes until the law stepped in.

Prabhupada must have been in that mood of feeling totally despaired and his goal of setting up a fully functioning management of his movement collapsed. But he couldnt tell anyone about his inner feelings. The only hint we get is at the end when he says, that he feels like someone who's getting poisoned. And again, he leaves us in total uncertainty - his claim of being poisened never proven.

Prabhupada's tenor rather embitterment and resentment but always making sure, like a father towards his ill-bred son, I have given them everything, sacrificed, climbed down, looked the other way, always hoping that a miracle will happen but at the same time clear feelings of having failed. In that rollercoaster mood of hope that his movement will go on and feelings of having failed even making high risk decisions of giving unqualified people sannyas, "here take" and one week later stating on a morning walk, it is not necessary and foolish to take sannyas.

And at the end stating, I feel that my most confidential disciples gave me poison. Indeed nothing of the poison claim was ever proven, but Prabhupada stating it clearly makes the point, I leave this world in a very precarious situation but don't want to disclose what I'm really thinking.

 

 

Pranavdas Gupta: The Samvat comes…because when the date is 1896 we have to add fifty-seven years, because when we want to get samvat, then we have to add fifty-seven years. So then we add fifty- seven years it comes 1953. Then he took out the very, very old man, and I saw that, that he took out that calendar, and pañcama, and then he calculated. He saw this. And I told him that “We can look at the date. I don’t know exactly what the date is, but just following Janmāṣṭamī.” No. Day I did not disclose. Then he said… Then he saw after Janmāṣṭamī that’s navamī. Then he said, “The day is Tuesday.” I knew the day is Tuesday. “That’s correct.” Then what is the date? And he said, “First September.” When we look here if it is 1st September then that must be adit-masa also, because we are getting Janmāṣṭamī 6th September. That year also it must be adit- masa. He said yes. Then he saw there were Jyeṣṭha, at that time, Jyeṣṭha or Asadhar. That was adit-masa He saw in your pañcama. Then he prepared all these things. Then he said according to rasi… “Do you know his name?” I said, “No, name I don’t remember,” because I am not to disclose anything…

 

 

Prabhupada: I’ll tell you, therefore, “Let him ask.”

 

 

 

Pranavdas Gupta: I did not disclose anything about… Where I have come from, for what…, even not of the temple, I said. And he was not going to prepare this. “Look here, I am from Govardhana Hotel. Whatever extra you want, I’ll pay you, but I want today. You sit down.” Then he said, “All right.” Then he did. So then he said according to the rasi the name comes to Kamala Nārāyaṇa. The name comes to Ka. “Means it is not Kamala? It may be ka, according to that ka.” Then I asked three questions. The Maharaji asked those three questions. Should I tell those three questions’ answers?

 

 

Then first I want… Because you know these days our sannyāsīs are going abroad for the preaching. I didn’t say anything. He also wants to go just like that people. Then he said “This year there is some doubt about him going abroad. But after the next year, 1978, he may go. But 1977 I have got doubt about his going.” Then I said “How you say about the I.M.H.?”

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Within two years he said he could go?

Pranavdas Gupta: Ah, yes. Within two years he may go abroad.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said not just now.

Pranavdas Gupta: But he may go. He may go. But not certain that way. About the age I inquired. He said look here, up to 7th September… One thing strike me very much, because I think the date of birth comes 7th September.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And your appearance day is on the 7th of September this year. And this man… I don’t know if he knew that, but he said…

Pranavdas Gupta: No, he didn’t knew that. No, he never calculated this year’s birthday. He said up to 7th September, his days are very difficult. And if he crosses 7th September, then up to 92, 10 years’ period is there. And if he crosses 92, then 102, another ten years. So these are his periods. So this period, to 7th September, is troublesome. “And what troubles he has got?” He said, “He must have complete pain in his body, he must have a stomach pain, and particularly on account of his stomach he has got throughout his body pain.” And what he did… Actually he’s a very elderly man. He’s from this hill area. So he also… He took a pretty long time, and he discussed with me so many things. Then he wanted my date of birth also, and when he came to me, “I belong to Govardhana Hotel. I am the proprietor.” Then he asked so many things about my how my all… “Look here. Your relation has increased with him, and if he is going, it is just possible you may also accompany him.” So many things. So these are the…

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then he did these charts.

Pranavdas Gupta: He has given in this chart. Mahārāji, your Śukra is very nice. Venus. Śukra means Venus. And in the seventh place Śukra is very, very… To him this is very good place of Śukra. But on the eleventh house, Rahu, “That has rather forced him to take sannyāsa. That has rather forced him to take… But what was he doing before taking sannyāsa?” “I actually do not know what he…” Because I had to say like that. “He might be in some good post,” he said. “He might be in good post. Then he has taken sannyāsa. Was he a married man?” “Yes, he was a married.” “Has he got issues?” “Yes, he has got issues.” Then all these calculations. “But his eleventh house, that Rahu, made him like that. But Śukra in the seventh house is very good for him. As regards the others, these are good, but this is the best, the Śukra, the Venus, in the seventh house.” So he has given this Janma Lagna and he has also given this Chandra Lagna. These are almost the same as now. But he was impressed that way, seeing all the horoscope. I did not disclose anything. I’m coming from Vṛndāvana, so he hold that I’m…

 

 

Room Conversation

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

July 19, 1977, Vṛndāvana

[Sarva gattah]

 

Their victims were innocent, naive and immature but they were demons

Gobbledygook! With all due respects you are completely WRONG on this issue because so were they. If you can learn to forgive Bhavananda, Ramesvara and others (You forgot to mention that some of their previous disciples committed suicide) then you could save the world

EVERYONE from women rapists, mass murders, little boy rapists to Cow and cafe slaughters are subject the 'causeless' mercy of Lord Caitanya, who is known as patita-pavana. By the way, Prabhupada new about the fall down of Bhavananda in Mayapur with a boy and still made him an initiating guru.

There is one line of WISDOM I carry with me from growing up as a Christian and that is "hate the sin, not the sinner'

The material body is simply a post for the 'pure soul' to be covered by. From the bigger picture, EVERYONE IS A DEVOTEE OF KRSNA, EVEN THOSE IN BOTH DEMON AND FALLEN BODIES (same thing)

Get off the mental platform and try to understand that not only are you not your material body, but everyone else you see are not theirs also.

‘No lie can live forever’ And the material body and mind is one big lie.

[AncientMariner]

 

I honestly think that Prabhupada used their overblown egos to make them work harder for Krsna's mission, but I also accept your point. Based on some accounts, he gave sannyasa to Kirtanananda just to save him from his homosexual tendencies, and gave sannyasa to some devotees on the verge of blooping just to keep them in the movement a little bit longer.

 

Thus he traded the traditional sanctity and gravity of the sannyasa ashrama for some much needed service from these people.

 

 

That is a trip if someone thinks getting awarded the title of sannyasi would keep them in the Krsna Consciousness Movement. Seems like that is indicative of a very superficial understanding of sannyasi even though I admit I don't completely know what it is, but I get the sense from Prabhupada's books that it has very little to do with being a religous title that would motivate someone to stay in a religous institution.

[theist]

 

Gobbledygook! With all due respects you are completely WRONG on this issue because so were they. If you can learn to forgive Bhavananda, Ramesvara and others (You forgot to mention that some of their previous disciples committed suicide) then you could save the world

 

You need to understand something Sarva it is not up to me to forgive or condemn anyone. That doesn't mean I can't call a saint a saint and a demon a demon. That has nothing to do with condemning or forgiving that is simply an observation.

 

You need to step away from the sentimentalism. Even the demigods and denizens of heaven have some demon in them.

 

EVERYONE from women rapists, mass murders, little boy rapists to Cow and cafe slaughters are subject the 'causeless' mercy of Lord Caitanya, who is known as patita-pavana. By the way, Prabhupada new about the fall down of Bhavananda in Mayapur with a boy and still made him an initiating guru.

 

Yes demons are subject to the causeless mercy of the Lord and so are saints and so what? A saint is still a saint and should be called a saint and a demon is stil a demon and should be called a demon. They are both temporay designations upon the pure self. The soul who played the role of Bhavananda the false guru and baby raper is as much a part of Krishna as I or you or Adolph Hitler or Mahatma Gandhi. Nevertheless the Bhavananda role as a zonal guru was one that was a direct assault on the teaching of Srila Prabhupada and that is why his actions should be called demonic.

 

Anyone can change and indeed we all will. He could be a pure devotee at this moment or he could be a more vile demon I don't know nor am I interested to know.

 

Why would you be upset to hear a child raper and a fraud guru called a demon is beyond me but that is your business.

 

You still think Prabhupada appointed Bhavananda and that crew "initiating gurus". That is absolutely astounding and makes me sad to hear. You are still under the spell that allowed them to be worshipped as good as God in the first place. Nothing I can say.

 

There is one line of WISDOM I carry with me from growing up as a Christian and that is "hate the sin, not the sinner'

 

So now you are calling me a hater. The fact is I turned my back on that whole scene. I never worshipped those frauds and I never hated them either, I simply went another direction. I once felt anger and great disappointment yes, but that is when Krishna reminded me solidly of where I was living at. The material world where nothing is as it seems, where mundane religions will always outdraw transcendental reality, where for every one pure teacher of God consciousness there will be a million frauds. So why waste my time hating every fraud I become aware of? That path only runs from one part of hell to the other and back again because there will always be another fraud showing up.

 

I simply need to purge myself of the tendency to defraud others I don't need to forgive the sins of the world or Bhavananda or anyone else I need to seek the Lord's forgiveness upon me and forgive those who seem to trespass directly upon me. If I had been duped by Bhavananda then I would hate him and need to learn to forgive him but thankful that dynamic was never a part of my life. I have other directions to work on.

 

The material body is simply a post for the 'pure soul' to be covered by. From the bigger picture, EVERYONE IS A DEVOTEE OF KRSNA, EVEN THOSE IN BOTH DEMON AND FALLEN BODIES (same thing)

That is correct but until you have the actual realization of this you must be careful and not imitate uttama adhikari's and concentrate on the becoming firmly fixed in the vision of the madhyama-adhikari who sees a distinction between the demons and the innocent and treats then differently. Realization of transcendental oneness will come but it can't be faked and sadhakas must be very careful in how they relate to others. Avoid the atheists and demons, enlighten and protect the innocent.

 

Get off the mental platform and try to understand that not only are you not your material body, but everyone else you see are not theirs also.

Good advice.

‘No lie can live forever’ And the material body and mind is one big lie.

 

Not exactly but I know what you mean. The actual lie is thinking oneself to be the material body and the materially molded mind. When we give up such false identification we will see the so-called material body and the mind stuff was composed of spirit all along.

 

Hare Krishna

[Sarva gattah]

 

You still think Prabhupada appointed Bhavananda and that crew "initiating gurus". That is absolutely astounding and makes me sad to hear. You are still under the spell that allowed them to be worshipped as good as God in the first place. Nothing I can say.

 

I don't think he did I know he did. Someone had to initiate new disciples. You have not read my previous thoughts on this issu placed on other web sites also like Sampridaya Sun. The deviation was they put themselves above the GBC and divided the world up. Being iniitating gurus was not their fall down, it was becoming more authoritive than the GBC.

[cbrahma]

 

DEMONS TAKE THE DRESS OF SANNYASA AND ENGAGE IN NONSENSE

Sometimes such demons take up the role of preacher,

mislead the people, and become known as religious reformers or as

incarnations of God. They make a show of performing sacrifices,

or they worship the demigods, or manufacture their own God.

Common men advertise them as God and worship them, and by the

foolish they are considered advanced in the principles of

religion, or in the principles of spiritual knowledge. They take

the dress of the renounced order of life and engage in all

nonsense in that dress.

(B.g. 16.17, purp.)

 

 

Our first business is not to forgive demons but to destroy the demonic mentality. The demon wants to kill Krsna and the spiritual master. That is unforgivable. BTW ISKCON persecuted disciples that were loyal innocent followers of Prabhupada and continue to do so to this very day. Because they don't accept the bogus gurus and the GBC they are not allowed even to set foot in an ISKCON temple.

[cbrahma]

 

The only hint we get is at the end when he says, that he feels like someone who's getting poisoned.

Yes in the end. That doesn't necessarily mean at the beginning he gave sannyasa to people he knew were child molestors. There is free will.

Its just like what I hear from people like Kula whose spiritual master falls down. They say 'Oh he was qualified to begin with. Really sincere but later..." So they see it like that- that one can begin sincerely and then decide to act demonically.

But to rationalize misrepresentation and crime as what 'comes with the territory' just to spread the mission is a demonic complacency.

Jesus said that those who would give scandal to the 'little ones', it would be better that a mill stone be tied around their neck and they be cast into the sea.

[krsna]

 

Srila Prabhupada:

 

If we want to advance actually, you take every word of Bhagavad-gita and try to apply in life. Then everyone will be happy. That is a fact.

 

The instruction is there. There is no difficulty to understand. There is no question of interpretation. Simply take it as it is and try to apply it in life -- you'll be happy. And your human life will be successful.

Morning Darsana and Room Conversation Ramkrishna Bajajand friends -- January 9, 1977, Bombay

 

[Sarva gattah]

Theist -"You still think Prabhupada appointed Bhavananda and that crew "initiating gurus". That is absolutely astounding and makes me sad to hear. You are still under the spell that allowed them to be worshipped as good as God in the first place. Nothing I can say".

Mr. Gattah –Yes, I do, also clearly, as everyone knows, Prabhupada new about the fall down of Bhavananda in Mayapur with a boy and still made him an initiating guru, still ask him to initiate on his behalf after Prabhupada would leave the planet. Prabhupada also new about the constant fall down to homosexuality of Upendra dasa, who molestered a 15 year old Australian Brahmacari in 1972. ******** dasa told me about this later in 1972 and how embarrassed he was and later died mysteriously in 1987. We both opened up Adelaide Temple together in late 1972 along with Kurma the barmy arrogant chef

There is one line of WISDOM I carry with me from growing up as a Christian and that is "hate the sin, not the sinner' that Prabhupada also taught

The material body is simply a post for the 'pure soul' to be covered by. From the bigger picture, EVERYONE IS A DEVOTEE OF KRSNA, EVEN THOSE IN BOTH DEMON AND FALLEN BODIES (same thing)

Those who were suppose to initiate new devotees deviated by first of all imitating Prabhupada, then by having their own elevated Vysa seat and acting above the authority of the GBC.

The initiation of new devotees was supposed to be a humble affair centred on the founder Acarya as this early stage of ISKCON's development. They made the disastrous mistake of acting on a level they were not qualified to be on.

They were asked to initiate new devotees into ISKCON; instead, they imitated Prabhupada and destroyed themselves, well, not all of them.

[theist]

 

I don't think he did I know he did. Someone had to initiate new disciples. You have not read my previous thoughts on this issu placed on other web sites also like Sampridaya Sun. The deviation was they put themselves above the GBC and divided the world up. Being iniitating gurus was not their fall down, it was becoming more authoritive than the GBC.

 

Well we disagree, that's all. Prabhupada's books are simply filled page after page with how the bhagvat parampara continues in fact the books themselves are examples of that way.

[theist]

Upendra's death was not a mystery. he was severly ill for years before he died. Liver disease he told me and he kept on drinking. He was caught up with really nasty association and was horribly conflicted over it, Besides what does Upendra have to do with what we are talking about? He never played guru.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Upendra's death was not a mystery. he was severly ill for years before he died. Liver disease he told me and he kept on drinking. He was caught up with really nasty association and was horribly conflicted over it, Besides what does Upendra have to do with what we are talking about? He never played guru.

 

The boys death in 1987 (suspected suicide) Upendra passed away at New Govardhana Murwillumbah Australia in 1996 from Hepatitis C

 

 

My point is Prabhupada new about these fall downs but never gave up on his disciples.

[theist]

Oh the boys death. Sounds suspicious.

[suchandra]

 

Yes in the end. That doesn't necessarily mean at the beginning he gave sannyasa to people he knew were child molestors. There is free will.

Its just like what I hear from people like Kula whose spiritual master falls down. They say 'Oh he was qualified to begin with. Really sincere but later..." So they see it like that- that one can begin sincerely and then decide to act demonically.

But to rationalize misrepresentation and crime as what 'comes with the territory' just to spread the mission is a demonic complacency.

Jesus said that those who would give scandal to the 'little ones', it would be better that a mill stone be tied around their neck and they be cast into the sea.

This might be true from your point of view. However, the bonafide acarya acts 100% under Krsna's order and as we see at kuruksetra there're sometimes things that look immoral or even demoniac. For example Krsna advising Arjuna how to kill Karna who was a stronger ksatriya than Arjuna. Agreed, you would say this is demoniac, many others also came to that conclusion. But somehow Krsna seems not to care, flies in the face of logic.

And we can squirm like an eel, Krsna and His pure devotee are right by default.

 

 

The slaying of Karna

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arjuna#The_slaying_of_Karna

Arjuna killed his uterine brother Karna, another formidable warrior who was fighting in aid of the Kauravas against the Pandavas. This act of fratricide was committed by him while in ignorance of the relationship. Karna and Arjuna form a terrible rivalry when Karna seeks to revenge himself upon Arjuna's guru and the princely order for casting him out and humiliating him. Arjuna is further provoked when Karna insults Arjuna and the other Pandava's wife Draupadi and has an indirect role in the murder of Arjuna's son Abhimanyu in battle. They both bring this terrible and personal rivalry to a climactic battle of terrifying proportions. For a long, long time, powerful weapons are discharged by the two warriors at terrifying pace without relent. The prowess and courage of both is marveled by the millions of other soldiers. Karna, knowing that he cannot kill Arjuna by any means, takes out his snake arrow to kill Arjuna. He uses this snake arrow against Arjuna but snake aswasena whose mother was killed by arjuna enters that arrow and tries to kill Arjuna. But the Lord Krishna saves his friend and devotee Arjuna at this crucial juncture. Then Arjuna becomes mad with anger and shame and rains innumerable arrows at Karna and wounds him. Then Arjuna is urged by Lord Krishna to kill Karna when he is attempting to raise his chariot, reminding him of Karna's own apparent lack of mercy and regard for the rules of war in the killing of Arjuna's son Abhimanyu in a terrible and brutal fashion. Arjuna thus kills Karna. In the end Karna's sins doom him, marking another instance in the Mahābhārata of how an individual's actions serve to mark his destiny, and the need to lead a virtuous life.

 

The slaying of Jayadratha

 

In another memorable battle, it was Arjuna who annihilated a whole akshouhini, or hundreds of thousands (109,350) of Kaurava soldiers in one day to avenge the terrible murder of his son Abhimanyu, who was killed by all of the strongest warriors of the Kaurava Army, attacking simultaneously and especially when Abhimanyu was exhausted and deprived of weapons and trapped in a formation impossible for anyone save the Kuru general Drona, Arjuna, Krishna and Krishna's son Pradyumna to escape from. Having pledged to enter the fire if he failed to kill the Sindhu king Jayadratha, whom he held principally responsible, by the end of the day, Arjuna in the process kills an entire akshauhini, or more than hundreds of thousands of soldiers. In the climactic moment, the sun is close to setting and thousands of warriors still separate Arjuna and Jayadratha. Seeing his friend's plight, the Lord Krishna, his charioteer, raises his Sudarshana Chakra to cover the Sun, faking a sunset. The Kaurava warriors rejoice over Arjuna's defeat and imminent death, and Jayadratha is exposed in a crucial moment, where upon the Lord's urging, Arjuna sets loose a powerful arrow that decapitates Jayadratha. This note of the act of protection of Krishna of his righteous friend and disciple will be incomplete without adding that Jayadratha's father, the old and sinful king Vridhakshtra had blessed his son that anyone who caused his head to fall to the ground would cause his own head to burst. Jayadratha's head is carried by the arrow to his own father's hands, who was meditating near the battlefield; who in his shock drops the head and himself dies of his own blessing.

 

[cbrahma]

 

This might be true from your point of view. However, the bonafide acarya acts 100% under Krsna's order and as we see at kuruksetra there're sometimes things that look immoral or even demoniac. For example Krsna advising Arjuna how to kill Karna who was a stronger ksatriya than Arjuna. Agreed, you would say this is demoniac, many others also came to that conclusion. But somehow Krsna seems not to care, flies in the face of logic.

And we can squirm like an eel, Krsna and His pure devotee are right by default

Oh yes keep feeding into the no-duality rationalization. ISKCON is in good order. All the bogus gurus are merely a pastime along the way, not to mention the child molestations. Collateral damage, like the rationalizations for the Iraq war.

 

Never mind that Prabhupada himself called the bogus sanyassis demons.

Never mind that he insisted that the spiritual master be perfect and untouched by the gunas , self-realized.

Nerve mind free will.

If you need quotes, they are easy to provide. It isn't a matter of my point of view.

[theist]

Prabhupada was given a very broad mission with many facets that all had to be initiated from scratch. Not only was he initiating individuals into sadhana bhakti who had no prior conception of what that meant he was initiating the the West into the practice of sadhana bhakti itself. He was simulataneously working on the individual and society as a whole.

 

Now consider the material he was working with. We were not neutral and society was not neutral we were deeply fallen so he had to simulataneously pull us out of the deep well while teaching us to dance with God.

 

Appreciating the Herculean efforts of Srila Prabhupada is important when trying to discuss his successes and apparant failures.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Never mind that Prabhupada himself called the bogus sanyassis demons..

 

You have to have some understanding of history here. When Prabhupada came to the West, there were so many bogus gurus and sannyasis in America. And India was inundated with them; he was not talking about those he gave sannyas to.

If you were there in America, Europe or Australia in 1970, you would understand.

One group, the Ananda marg caused Australia's first terrorist attack in 1975, they wore orange robs and were known for their women sannyasis.

They tried to assassinate the Indian Prime Minister at the Commonwealth heads of state. In the bomb blast, two police officers and a council worker where killed and made healines all over the world.

Because of the robes, many thought it was us. Prabhupada vigerously criticised these other sannyasi bogus groups so that ISKCON would not be lumped in with the 'bogus influx of sannyasi's' coming from India.

Back then so many who took LSD declared themselves as a Swami. Most of them died out by the late seventies. Prabhupada was not talking about those he gave sannyas to.

[cbrahma]

 

You have to have some understanding of history here. When Prabhupada came to the West, there were so many bogus gurus and sannyasis in America. And India was inundated with them; he was not talking about those he gave sannyas to.

If you were there in America, Europe or Australia in 1970, you would understand.

One group, the Ananda marg caused Australia's first terrorist attack in 1975, they wore orange robs and were known for their women sannyasis.

They tried to assassinate the Indian Prime Minister at the Commonwealth heads of state. In the bomb blast, two police officers and a council worker where killed and made healines all over the world.

Because of the robes, many thought it was us. Prabhupada vigerously criticised these other sannyasi bogus groups so that ISKCON would not be lumped in with the 'bogus influx of sannyasi's' coming from India.

Back then so many who took LSD declared themselves as a Swami. Most of them died out by the late seventies. Prabhupada was not talking about those he gave sannyas to.

 

Prabhupada did not consider himself above the standards he dictated.

 

 

 

Will Narayana Maharaja or his Followers Please Answer Directly?

BY: GEORGE A. SMITH

 

 

<CENTER>Kaccit tvam brahmanam balam

Gam vrddham roginam stryam

Saranopasrtam sattvam

Natyaksih sarana-pradah</CENTER>

 

• "You are ALWAYS the protector of the deserving living beings, such as brahmanas, children, cows, women and the diseased. Could you not give them protection when they approached you for shelter?
  PURPORT
  The brahmanas who are always engaged in researching knowledge for the societies welfare work, both materially and spiritually, deserve the protection of the king in all respects. Similarly the children of the state, the cow, the diseased person, the women and the old man specifically require the protection of the state or a ksatriya king. If such living beings do not get protection by the ksyatriya, or the royal order, or by the state, it is certainly shameful for the ksyatriya or the state. If such things had actually happened to Arjuna, Maharaja Yudhisthira was anxious to know about the discrepancies." (Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 1, Ch. 14, Text 41)

It is evident from the above noted verse and purport by the Sampradaya Acharya A.C. Bhaktivedanta Srila Prabhupada that the protection of women, children, etc., is indistinguishable from the highest cause, that it is the highest cause, and thus to say that Srila Prabhupada knew about the child molestation but did nothing to stop it because it was necessary for the good of the universe or the highest cause is complete and utter bullshit. The protection of the priestly class, of women, children, etc., is service to Krsna and for His satisfaction, and while a spiritual master may lie, cheat or even steal in order to protect them, it can never be the other way around, that a spiritual master can condone or tolerate any abuses of them for the sake of a higher cause because protecting them is the highest cause and service to Krsna.

 

Spare me the history lessons. I was in the movement before and during that time. Twisting transcendence to justify corruption is what the cheaters do.

My 'historical' research has led me to understand where this theory about Prabhupada's knowing about the corruption and doing nothing, inititiating sannyasi whom he knew where child molestors, came from. Narayana Maharaj. Of course that applies to NM without a doubt because by the time he was directly involved in ISKCON much of the corruption had been exposed.

 

 

Now Time to Take the Narayana Maharaja Bull by the Horns BY: BALAVIDYA

DASA

 

 

The case in point is the recent discussion about Srila Prabhupada's

knowledge of the misbehavior towards the gurukula students. We have seen

voluminous, unfocused, sastrically-inaccurate, and speculative

presentations by one personality, and the end result of his nonsense is

that Srila Prabhupada knew of the rampant child-abuse in the gurukula and

did nothing about it. To assert this is simply blasphemy. But the illogical

rambling presentations of this person are simply built upon the nonsense

conclusions of Narayana Maharaja. In trying to validate such nonsense, we

see him ready to use any kind of word-jugglery. Yet, he is only proving

that his association for "higher-instruction" with Narayana Maharaja has

simply taken him away from humble and chaste adherence to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Those that served in close association with Srila Prabhupada for many years

know that his overriding and deepest concern was undoubtedly for the

welfare of all those souls who had taken shelter of him. He was/is our

loving spiritual father, our "ever well-wisher". His heart was an ocean of

unlimited love and compassion, and even our tiny efforts at service he took

as a great treasure. When he arrived in the temple, we would see tears in

his eyes. His greatest joy, we knew, was for him to see us and smile. Even

when we were chastised, we knew his love was there.

 

For anyone to assert that this embodiment of transcendental love and

unbreakable morality knew about child-abuse and let it go on unchecked is

an idea of such idiocy that one becomes almost speechless. And to support

this idiocy with nonsense lies and word-jugglery, only serves to compound

the offense. And from where is this blasphemy coming: the camp of Narayana

Maharaja, and more accurately, its leader.

 

We also hear from the same leader that one needs a "living guru". Has one

ever read in any authoritative scripture that there is such a thing as a

'dead guru'? Every ISKCON devotee for years at every disappearance day

festival in the temple has heard the refrain of Srila Bhaktivinoda: "He

reasons ill who says that Vaisnava die, when thou art living still in

sound". And did not Srila Prabhupada firmly declare "I will live for ever

in my books"? Such basic tenets of Vaisnava philosophy are forgotten in the

camp of Narayana Maharaja; they are told and obediently parrot: "You need a

living guru". The blasphemy here is that Srila Prabhupada is a "dead guru"

along with, by implication, ever other acarya and devotee in our line. What

stupidity, what rascaldom.

 

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

My 'historical' research has led me to understand .........

 

How old are you? There is a BIG difference of living through history and studying history. Don't turn Prabhupada into some 'cult' personality and also stop blaming Narayana Maharaj.

 

My only argument with him is about the origin of the jiva soul, that he foolishly claims originates from the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. Other than that, I was there, I new what went on and this is EXACTLY how it was.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>You have to have some understanding of history here. When Prabhupada came to the West, there were so many bogus gurus and sannyasis in America. And India was inundated with them; he was not talking about those he gave sannyas to.

If you were there in America, Europe or Australia in 1970, you would understand.

One group, the Ananda marg caused Australia's first terrorist attack in 1975, they wore orange robs and were known for their women sannyasis.

They tried to assassinate the Indian Prime Minister at the Commonwealth heads of state. In the bomb blast, two police officers and a council worker where killed and made healines all over the world.

Because of the robes, many thought it was us. Prabhupada vigerously criticised these other sannyasi bogus groups so that ISKCON would not be lumped in with the 'bogus influx of sannyasi's' coming from India.

Back then so many who took LSD declared themselves as a Swami. Most of them died out by the late seventies. Prabhupada was not talking about those he gave sannyas to.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[cbrahma]

 

How old are you? There is a BIG difference of living through history and studying history. Don't turn Prabhupada into some 'cult' personality and also stop blaming Narayana Maharaj.

 

My only argument with him is about the origin of the jiva soul, that he foolishly claims originates from the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. Other than that, I was there, I new what went on and this is EXACTLY how it was.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>You have to have some understanding of history here. When Prabhupada came to the West, there were so many bogus gurus and sannyasis in America. And India was inundated with them; he was not talking about those he gave sannyas to.

If you were there in America, Europe or Australia in 1970, you would understand.

One group, the Ananda marg caused Australia's first terrorist attack in 1975, they wore orange robs and were known for their women sannyasis.

They tried to assassinate the Indian Prime Minister at the Commonwealth heads of state. In the bomb blast, two police officers and a council worker where killed and made healines all over the world.

Because of the robes, many thought it was us. Prabhupada vigerously criticised these other sannyasi bogus groups so that ISKCON would not be lumped in with the 'bogus influx of sannyasi's' coming from India.

Back then so many who took LSD declared themselves as a Swami. Most of them died out by the late seventies. Prabhupada was not talking about those he gave sannyas to.

 

 

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Suffice that I was there and witnessed Prabhupada and his disciples first hand. Living history is a lot better than believing your biased accounts of it. I am thoroughly familiar with the ISKCON history up to his samadhi at least. After that I studied it. There is nothing cultic about acknowledging Prabhupada's elevated status just because others can't measure up (like your fallen guru) and have to minimize him. What you think about what Prabhupada knew or thought (without a shred of evidence) is inconsequential. He gave sannyasa to those who at the time were candidates for it. They deceived him and over time without his knowledge took advantage of their position. It is as simple as that. NM is giving him God-like status by claiming he knew things omnisciently.

 

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Now Time to Take the Narayana Maharaja Bull by the Horns BY: BALAVIDYA

DASA

 

 

The case in point is the recent discussion about Srila Prabhupada's

knowledge of the misbehavior towards the gurukula students. We have seen

voluminous, unfocused, sastrically-inaccurate, and speculative

presentations by one personality, and the end result of his nonsense is

that Srila Prabhupada knew of the rampant child-abuse in the gurukula and

did nothing about it. To assert this is simply blasphemy. But the illogical

rambling presentations of this person are simply built upon the nonsense

conclusions of Narayana Maharaja. In trying to validate such nonsense, we

see him ready to use any kind of word-jugglery. Yet, he is only proving

that his association for "higher-instruction" with Narayana Maharaja has

simply taken him away from humble and chaste adherence to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Those that served in close association with Srila Prabhupada for many years

know that his overriding and deepest concern was undoubtedly for the

welfare of all those souls who had taken shelter of him. He was/is our

loving spiritual father, our "ever well-wisher". His heart was an ocean of

unlimited love and compassion, and even our tiny efforts at service he took

as a great treasure. When he arrived in the temple, we would see tears in

his eyes. His greatest joy, we knew, was for him to see us and smile. Even

when we were chastised, we knew his love was there.

 

For anyone to assert that this embodiment of transcendental love and

unbreakable morality knew about child-abuse and let it go on unchecked is

an idea of such idiocy that one becomes almost speechless. And to support

this idiocy with nonsense lies and word-jugglery, only serves to compound

the offense. And from where is this blasphemy coming: the camp of Narayana

Maharaja, and more accurately, its leader.

 

We also hear from the same leader that one needs a "living guru". Has one

ever read in any authoritative scripture that there is such a thing as a

'dead guru'? Every ISKCON devotee for years at every disappearance day

festival in the temple has heard the refrain of Srila Bhaktivinoda: "He

reasons ill who says that Vaisnava die, when thou art living still in

sound". And did not Srila Prabhupada firmly declare "I will live for ever

in my books"? Such basic tenets of Vaisnava philosophy are forgotten in the

camp of Narayana Maharaja; they are told and obediently parrot: "You need a

living guru". The blasphemy here is that Srila Prabhupada is a "dead guru"

along with, by implication, ever other acarya and devotee in our line. What

stupidity, what rascaldom.

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

(like your fallen guru) .

 

Let me tell you, my initiating Spiritual Master and eternal Guru is certainly not fallen.

 

Look, I admire your enthusiasm however it is better to glorify Prabhupada than ridicul others in the Gaudiya matha.

 

Jai Srila Prabhupada!!

 

[cbrahma]

 

Let me tell you, my initiating Spiritual Master and eternal Guru is certainly not fallen.

 

Look, I admire your enthusiasm however it is better to glorify Prabhupada than ridicul others in the Gaudiya matha.

 

Jai Srila Prabhupada!!

 

Excuses excuses. Oooh it's a different story when the truth comes out about your guru. If you can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen. Everything that was alleged about Prabhupada regarding the child abuse applies with solid proof to NM.

NM is the blasphemer, not I. I merely report the historical facts.