Can One's NAVAMSA be a BIRTH CHART of other?

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Dear Deepa,

 

To continue, on the quiries you have, on the role of god, spirituality, and karma, let me change gears and start the invistigation from a different angle. This little longish posting is the climax and can answer all the questions you have so far asked and unasked. Besides it could complety transform your self spiritually - if you get it. It is a spiritual Instruction. Let me start it with a spiritual question.

 

"Who Am I? "

 

Have you ever asked Who you are? Did you ever investigate the question seriously "Who Am I?" Ask different people "who are you?" and you will get different different answers. For example you might say You are Deepa. But if I bring to your notice that this answer - your name - is quite arbitary and unrevealing - it could have been any other name as well and this answer does not indicate anything substancial about you, then you might answer " I am a body of flesh blood, bone and nerve ", I am a women", "I am a hindu", "I am an Indian", "I am an astrologer" etc. etc. People answer differently. But what is common in all the answers to this question is a procedure of drawing a boundary of what you are and what you are not.

To answer this quistion you must draw a boundry- You must define yourself. And in that defining you draw a boundry indicating what is inside and what is outside- who you are and who you are not. For example when you define yourself as a women you exclude all Men from it. You are saying "I am a women and I am not a man". When you define tourself as a hindu, you are simultaniously defining who you are not - a muslim, Cristian, Jew etc.

 

All such definitions are arbitary as you could have defined differently. If you ask a number of people, people do define them differently. Some definitations could be so narrow that it include only one's biological organism - as in the case when you define yourself as your body. Some definitions are broder then this. For instance when you define youeself as a women your identification is not just with your body but with all women. You could define yourself broder than this too - "I am a human" includes males inside the boundry, "Iam a living being" Includes animals and plants in side the boundry. and so on.

 

Ken Wilber , in his book, 'No Boundries' ( Shambala publication) shows that all boundries are arbitary, there by, shows that the notion of your self -Who you are - is just an arbitary conception - you could draw your boundries anywhere you please. Actually there are no boundries.

 

Let us investigate this thesis rigorously , using a definition that we are our bodies - a very commonly believed answer.

 

Are you your body? Are you your flesh, blood, bone, hair and nail?

Okey, conduct this exercise. Cut your nail and some strand of your hairs. Put the cliping of your nail and strand of hair on the table and watch them and ask the quistion : "Am I this nail and hair?" Are you that nail? that hair?

Instantly you will know that you are not that nail or that hair- isint it?

Now the rest of the experiment you could do with your mind alone - no need to actually do it. Peele of a patch of your skin, and put that on the table and ask the question Are you that skin? No. Draw out some blood and keep in a test tube or bottle. Are you that? No. Cut out a piece of your bone and place it on the table? and ask - "Am I this?" No. Are you your kidny?, liver? heart?

Answer is NO, NO, NO. In fact you could transplant all parts of your body nowadays. You could change everything in your body by other's body parts or even synthetic body part. Yet you will not feel any different as to your sense of self. You will feel that you are same. The "I" sence in you will remain intact - you wont think you are that person whose body part you wear now - you remain intact the same you even after every thing in your body has changed.

 

Conclusion; you are not your body.

 

Then who are you or what are you?

Are you your mind then?

What you have done to your body - the imaginary experiment - you could do to your mind too. Take a specific thought or image or emotion and watch it and ask the question: Are you that thoght?, that image, that feeling? Thoughts come and go images apear and disappear, fealing arise and subside You are none of them . You are not a thought in the mind, you are not a feeling that you experience .You are not your happiness or your depression.

 

Much of the confusion that 'mind is the self ' arises out of the language that we speake. We say " I am angryI am depressed I am happy".

The word am is to be blamed for the confusion. This word am creats an illusion of identity between I and my anger, my depression and my happiness, giving the impression I am anger. I am depression I am happiness. If we replace the wrong usage am in our language and repharase rightly as below, the confusion disappears:

I experience anger,

I experience depression

I experience happyness.

 

Here we clearly perceive that "I" is distinct from what that "I" experiences . There is no mixing up with I with its object of experiences. I am not my mind. I experience my mind as an object .

 

Here I shall introduce a Philosophical trerminology; The "knower" and the "known" - also as the "subject" and the "object" . For example when you are reading this posting in your computer, there is a 'you' and a 'computer'. Your computer is not you - it is an object for you - you are the subject.

 

Strictly speaking when we say "I" we refer to the 'subject' the 'knower' and not to the object the known. "I" refers to the subject - the knower and not the object that it knows.

 

Keeping this distinction in mind if we investigate the question "Who Am I " lot of confusion gets cleared. I am not my body as my body is an object that I exoerience - that I happen to 'know' - just like any other object of the world. Just like I am different from my computer and the table on which the computer is placed and the room in which it occupies, ( I am not the computer, the table or the room but the knower -the experiencer - of the computer table and room) I am different from my body and mind which are objects that I happened to be knowing. I know my body in the same way as I know my table. To know the table I need to see it through the eye, touch it with hand etc The table enters the consciuosness through the five sences - Indrias. My body too enters the consciousness in the same way. It has to go through the senses.Then why do we assume the body which is just like the table, is us and the table is not us? Both table and body are objects of awareness for the Knower,- for the real "I"

 

You get it? You are not your body or your mind. You are the knower of your body and mind. You are not the object that you know of. You are the subject that knows the object. You are consciousness itself -Cit - Atman, the knower of all the objects. Your body mind complex is just one of the objects that the knower - the true you - knows.

 

If you are not the body and not the mind then what are you? Now you can establish easily that all answers givin to the question "who am I" are wrong answers. Because as we have shown earlier to answer this question you need to create a definition and all definitions are created out picking and choosing something from the realm of the known. This is the only way to define. But anything that we define in terms of the 'known' is a wrong answer as "I" is not anything that exists in the realm of Known It is the very knower itself and not the known. Hence All answers are wrong. The Question "Who am I?" has no answer and cannot be answered.

Let us demonstrate this with a couple of analogy.

 

The first analogy is the anology of tha camera.

A camera can take photograph of everything but it cannot take a picture of itself. That is, in the picture it has taken you cannot find the very camera itself. Even if this camera has taken the picture of everything in the entire universe, in that picture of the universe the camera will be missing. - A camera cannot take its own picture.

 

the second analogy is that of our Physical organ Eye. The eye can see everything but the seeing eye cannot see itself. ( you can argue that you can see it in a mirror. But what you see in the mirror is not the seeing eye. It is a image with out any power to see. it is not the real eye which sees everything.).

 

Just like the camera cannot tale a picture of itself, Just like the eye cannot see itself , the knower that knows everything cannot know itself . No aswer in terms of the objects of consciuusness is a real answer to the question who is the knower?- Who am I? Since The knower cannot know itself, any answer we give to this question is a wrong answer. Nothing from the universe or from the realm of objects of consciousness could be identified as "I" - though we make this mistake routinly . We define ourself as this or that from the realm of the known. We pick and choose some thing from the realm of objects and declare 'this is me' - this is what we do when we declare ourself as a body. All other answers that we create this way are equally wrong.

 

"Where Am I located ?"

 

We will investigate another question "Where am I?'

 

Many people, even those who have no difficulty of seeing that they are not their bodies, commit another mistake more difficult to correct. They think they are in their bodies - they locate the knower, the self, the subject, the consciousness , the atman inside the body. Some doctrine places the soul(Atman) in the heart some in the head, and so on. This is an error too.

Let us demonstrate. Again by an anology:

 

Think of a time when you were asleep and had a vivid dream. In the dream you saw and experienced many things. Perhaps there were landscapes . perhaps there were animals and people and temples and buildings. Are you in your dream? You will say yes , as you have a dream body too in your dream. In fact you experience the entire dream from the centre of your dream body, that is, in your dream you think and experience as if it is this dream bodty that sees the landscape, building and animals. That dream body gets exited by good events frightenrd by bad events like when a wild animal chases your dream body etc.

 

But the dream body has no real eye to see the other parts and contents of the deram world. It has no real harmons secreting in its body to feel the emotions. It is just like any other part of the dream - a picture, a shadow which cannot experience anything. The impression that this dream body is the centre of experiences and it experiences the rest of the dream contents is an illusion. the dream body as well as the other details of the dream are all experienced by a real body lying down and sleeping in your bed in a real space. The dream body is just a dream content like anything else in the dream and not the experiencer.

 

If you search who is the real experiencer - (here by this I mean your real physical body) inside your dream you will never find it. It does not exist in your dream space. It exists in the real space 'outside' the dream. ( You have to wake up to find it - you cannot find int in your dream world)

 

Just like your real body that is experiencing the dream is not to be found inside the deram world , and it cannot be located anywhere in the dream space (the space that exists in your dream -the land scape and all the rest of space) - you cannot locate the knower in side what you Know. The knower is to be located no where in the universe as the entire universe is the realm of the known . Just like the real dreamer lies outside the dream world, the real knower, the atman lies outside the realm of what it knows. You cannot locate it any where in the physical universe - which include your body. It is just an illusion - much like we experience the experiencer in our dream body.

 

Hence our startling conclution : The real knower - the atman - is a transcendental entity. (in the sense It transcendends the physical space. that is, it is beyond or away or above the entire physical existence.)

 

The Sanscrit word for this quality of the atman is Paramatman . The word 'Para' means transcentance, being beyond. Since the atman is beyond the emprical universe , it is called Paramatman (Transcendantal soul).

 

What about Time dimention?

 

Let us investicate one more matter. We concluded the real self transcendents space. What about time? Is it in time? Does time quordinates apply to it?

 

Time like space is an experience - an object,abstract though -experienced by the experiencer. Just like mater and space, Time is also an experience of the knower. Hence The experiencer -the consciuosness - the atman- transcends time too. That is, it is not to be located in time , or bound by time or in any way influnced by time. Time belongs to the emprical realm. Events of the emprical realm are determined by time and not the knower that knows the time itself . This has a drastic startling consequence. The Knower -the atman is in no way influenced by time as it is beyond time. It does not age and die- It is eternally same. It is immortal.

 

 

Paramatma, Jeevatma and karma .

 

Before we proceed Let us summarise our conclutions

The three startling conclusions are:

1) "I" - (the real you) - is not your body-mind complex

2) "I" cannot be known in emprical terms ( all answers to the question who am I? are wrong answers)

3) "I" is nowhere to be located in the emprical world of space time and causation . It belongs to the transcendantal world - the world beyond.

 

Thus truely, your true self "I" is already Paramatman. It is just that you dont know that, and you think mistakenly you are this or that in the emprical material world. This mistake of identifying yourself with some orbitary objects in the emprical world is called False Identification in Vedanta. By this illusory false identification you think of yourself as your body mind complex and a variety of other things -( like you are a woman., you are a dauter , a astrologer and the like). This state of false identification creates the ego - a narrow boundry of who you are. - a narrow self definition. Once you put on a self definition thus and restricted your self like this you have become a Jeevatman. Paramatman deluded by false identification is jeevatmam. Then forgetting your real identity, feel;ing trapped, you struggle and manipulate the natural qualities and events of the objects with you have identified yourself.

 

If you are established in the knowledge that you are not your body mind complex but a knower - a transcendantal experiencer nothing to do with any of the emprical things, - then you will become a neutral witness to everything that goes on in this emprical realm. - you will not struggle against them.

 

You can witness all the phases of a tree that is in front of your house- which grows, blooms, bear fruits , sheds its leaves and even dry and die- all this you could witness with out suffering and strugglind . The tree simply lives its life in conformity with the laws of nature and you understand that . Even you see beauty in all phases in the tree's life, including its dry dead state. (dry tree becomes an object of aesthics for many) . You could do this neutral witnessing as you are not identified with it.

 

The same thing happens when you are not identified with your body. With the knowledge that you are not a body and the body is just another object like the tree, you will serinely calmly and neutrally witness all the natural changes that happens to the body. When it become old, when the hair grays, when skin wringles you will let it be and will not suffer on that count ,struggle or manipulate the events. In your knowledge that your body is not you and it belongs to the emprical realm having its own laws, you let it be. Even the approaching death of the body will not let you loose your composure as you know you are not your body but the atman which is immortal. Body has its own laws - it changes ages and it dies. But you - the adman is eternally same and immortal. In this state of knowing you even cherish all phases of life. Let Sani come and go. Let all the nine planet come and stage their drama and go , What is it for you? as you are not affected , you are a witness of all this drama.

 

Do you see why spiritually advanced do not prescribe any astrological remedy? Prescribing a remedy is to take the drama of the emprical realm seriously and there by strengthening false identification and ego - it is detrimental to spiritual progress. True spirituality is to detach oneself from the emprical realm and establish firmly in the knowledge that is one is not the body mind compplex but t6he eternal changless Paramatman.

 

Jnana yoga Karma yoga Bhakti Yoga, and Moksha.

 

What we have been sofar doing is called Jana yoga. We have been inquiring the nature of self and grasped that this self in actuallity is Paramatman - religion calls it God. When you grasp this your attitude and reation to the world and events will undergo a drastic change. You no more would suffer and struggle against the natural unfolding - pragrti - of the emprical laws and you let it be. This does not mean that your emprical body mind complex become actionless- it will continue to act and react according to its own pragriti. It is a law bound thing and it goes on its own course. But now, from your part , you dont struggle and everything goes according to its own dharma( nature) Hense you dont manipulate as per the the ego's, whime and fancy and desires. The actions will be with out ego. ( as your false identification has been withdrawn, you will have no ego. - no self defined boundry)

 

This natural consequence of jnana of acting with out ego is called Karmayoga.

 

Since you know you are a transcendental self and nothing to do with material world automatically you will be established in Paramatma - God. You will desire and need nothing from the material realm. You will be one with god .This is Bakti yoga. The culmination of jnana is bakti.

 

Thus Jana yoga, karma joga and Bhakti yoga are all the same thing and reffer to the same state. However, while the essence is the same the perspectives differ.

 

Dear Dpeepa, if you have seen the truth of who you are really from this post than you have got it. If you have got it there is nothing else you need to get more - spiritually. All your doughts will fall off. The only thing remaining for you then is to stabilise in this understanding -in this witness consciousness . Even if you have got it perfectly now, you might , over a period of time, loose this insight and slowly fall back to the false identity. To counter that you need to engage in practicing it in life by way of karma yoga. Practice karma yoga of accepting things as they are and not desiring anything, while you go about doing your daily duity. It does not require renouncing the world. True renounciation is detatchment from the emprical realm , in the knowledge that you have nothing to do with the emprical. Like King Janaka the Raja Rishi, who did not renounce his kingdom but went about fulfilling all the duities that his kingly role demanded. But yet he is considered to be the greatest sage, as he did all that with detachment- without ego.

 

When you act like this, with out attachment and desiring, You will not creat new karma. Then all the old karma will exhaust by itself in due course. Then , the movement of karma, - like a potter wheel which is not again and again reinforced, or in modern analogy, a running fan whose electricity is cut off,- will eventually stop. You will live till that day in a jeevan mukta state. (Though you are a mukta, as you got the jnana of self , you will continue to live to exhaust the karmic force that has been already activated in your life. Hence that life where you live , without adding new karma, just for finishing the currently running karma is called jeevan mukti. ) And at the end, when your karma exhaust itself, when the body falls, the soul returns to the eternal free state- Mukti. You will not return again to this emprical world.

 

I hope I have answered your spiritual doubts

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[deepa.bhandari]

Respected Ravindran ji,

 

I am at a complete loss of breath and my mind is reeling - my mind - that I see as an entity outside of me - as in being the 'knower' of the same.. this post sets me thinking ... elevating me to an extent where I cannot find any counter argument to propose (not in terms of the negative argument - the kind which elevates understanding of the subject)

 

This post is enough food for thought, kindly allow me time to absorb..

 

Ravindran ji, having known so much, you ,might be well aware that I really do not know how to convey my boundless regards and gratitude, and reverence to you.

 

Thank you..

 

Best Regards

Deepa

[NAXSHATRA]

 

Warm greetings Lalit Sharma ji!

 

Dear Raj_an,

 

Kindly apply a balanced perspective. What Ravindran ji meant was that we must not (rather we cannot - and any such attempt is futile, irrelevant and uncalled for) - interfere with the natural karmic cycle.

 

Astrology should give us an understanding of the karmic cycle. Our karma are our own.

 

Lalitji wanted Ravindran ji to talk on the topic of karma and purusharth, I suppose now, Lalit ji would like to guide us further...

 

Lalit ji, pls explain, the role of our actions..

 

Regards

Deepa

 

WARM GREETING TO YOU TOO DEEPAJI!

 

Got Ravindranji back! ok!

 

Say, thank you!

 

Happy weaving! ha ha ha

 

THANK YOU RAVINDRANJI YOU LISTENED TO US!

 

The best example one can quote about making somebody understand the TRUTH is SRIMADBHAGWADGEETA. Where lord SRIKRISHNA [bHAGWAN HIMSELF]is trying all the ways,explaing through diferrent yogas,SHOWING VIRAT ROOPAM and what not,to a most DEDICATED shishya[one of the most capable man on the earth at that time].BUT ALMOST FAILED!

Lastly asking

him to leave evrything on HIM,and just surrender to HIM:

 

SARWA DHARMAN PARITYAJYA MAMEKAM SHARANAM VRAJ,

AHAM TWA SARWA PAPEBHYO MOKSHIYSHYAMI MA SHUCH:!

AND REST IS HISTORY!

I sincerely wish you get dedicated more shishyas like Deepa!

who can first learn to surrender to the very thought!

regards

 

Lalit K Sharma

[Ravindran Kesavan]

 

Pranaam to all,

 

 

 

if the purpose of astrology is to gain wisdom and accept the life as it is with out struggling against it- Then everyone becomes Lazy. And doesnt it reduces the Human effort.

Thanks,

Rajan

 

 

Dear Rajan,

 

I reiterate that the basic premise of astrology is Determinism. That is, there is no free will. Determinism and free will are opposing categories and holding them together simultaniously leads to a logical contradiction -like simultaniously declaring that it is raining and it is not raining as true. Or , it is like declaring that the result of a coin tossing is both a head as well as a tail. Two opposing positions can never be held or belived together. If one is true the other has to be false and vice versa. Other wise we would be contradicting ourself.

 

Your position that people would become lazy , seemes to be based on your deep rooted notion of freewill - that people are free to decide not to work or not to do anything. You can have that notion, no problem, but then you cannot be , simultaniously be engaged in astrology, as astrology is based on the thorough going determinism. That is, If you are a coherent regorous astrologer, you will have to maintain that Mr.X afrer consulting astrology become lazy not because after consulting his future prospects he decided to become lazy, but because in any way X is destinied to becomne lazy at that perticular period, and that could be predicted from his charts that he would become lazy. You see what I mean, He didnot consciously decided to become lazy after consultion the astrologer, HE HAS NO OTHER OPTION BUT TO BE LAZY at that phase of his life - that is how his destiny is made for him - and if you are a good astrologer you could predict this too. That is, people dont become lazy just like that, they become lazy only when they are programmed to be lazzy.

 

As astrology is based on determinism you will have to maintain this interpretation if you are a true astrologer. To be consistant and coherant with astrology, you must maintain what I maintain - The purpose of astrology is to give wisedom- to tell you in advance what is inevitable , what is your mission for you - as you are a determinstically programed robort or puppet. Everything that happens happens in accordance with this program.

 

This is being consistant with the science of astrology.

 

If you think that people have free will that they can choose to become lazy or active (or challenge the predictions in any way), then you are not in consistant with the science of astrology. You cannot be mixing, then, astrology with these kind of free will notions. You can then only be cohrently and regorously stand for free will and reject astrology totally. In that case you dont go to an astrologer and then decide what to do - to be active entuiastic creative etc. If you believe you could do any of these things - if you are a believer free will and of human efforts - then you straight away do them - be active, entusiastic and creative. Why at the first place you need an astrological reading? What purpose it serves you ?

 

Do you see what I mean, Your conception of the purpose of of astrology is in contradiction with the true foundation principles of astrology.

 

K.Ravindran

[rnramachandran]

Rajan, have you ever struggled in any part of your life, what did you do at that time, tried hard or just kept quite to get the things solved, Lord Krishna says, do your work and do not assume/expect what the results would be. Lord only Knows.

 

leave aside astrology, baisc principle is that people will be lazy only if they do not have to eat thrice a day or no dependents for them to look after, etc, when exposed to challenges at higher level people will try hard to get the things done.

 

here comes Astrology and helps you out why is this happening, even people think why only too me. you can find the same in the horoscope. even if we think the same way that people will be lazy once they know the fate, i doubt so, that cannot happen. because when the period running the situation and circumstances changes and will make him to dance according to the rules.

 

have you ever struggled in your life or faced problems in any situation like promotion where everything is positive for you but still you don't get the chance. but sometimes you get it easliy without any effort. what is the difference between these periods.

 

 

have you ever though why you were born at a paricular place at a particular point of time and to your parents, whom you do not know till you were born. there is super natural force/s by which we are into this world for what reason, God only knows, but he has given us a tool to find out the same by using astrology.

 

Astrology provides the ways to find possible outcomes, why is this happening and what will happen in future, which period is good one which is not and with help from Astrology people can find ways to reduce the bad effects like worshipping Gods for the particular Graha, i.e. if sun debiliated one will have to worship Lord Siva, like that there are many ways you can reduce the evil effect,.

 

After a long time i am here in this forum. Hello USRJi, Astro Tech, and Deepa and of course Ravindarn ji

Ram

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Dear Rajan,

 

One more point . Laziness and accepting things are not the same. Lazyness is Tamasic. There is a tendancy of escaping from work and duty and what must be done. It is hardly spiritual

 

Accepting ones life as it is with out rebelling and struggling is Spiritual - It is not thamasic but satvic. In this there is no avoidance of what must be done, one's assigned mission, no avoidance of hard work if it has to be done. Recall the Hanuman's story - Hanuman accepted when sade sati sani visited him- no escaping , no running away, no rebelling. But does this imply Hanuman is lazy? the opposite is true. Hanuman worked very hard. But he accepted this gladly with out cribing and complaining. That is spiritual.

 

Acceptance of things as they are is a spiritual quality. It is not lazyness as you interpreted. Lazyness is avoidance (of hard work) not acceptance.

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[deepa.bhandari]

Dear Lalit Sharma ji

 

VERY MANY THANKS, NOW YOU ARE THE ONE WHO STARTED WEAVING THE LOOM!

 

Dear Ramachandranji,

 

My greetings and regards to you - I hope you are back to be more regular. I have heard good of you from Shri USRji - someone I deeply miss on the forum these days

 

Respected Ravindran ji,

 

All of us here are so involved in the practical material context of the world, our perceptions therefore, might never get to the level where you are.

 

You rightly mentioned, I am likely to lose contact of the revelation of Who I am, as most methodically deduced in your philosophical and psychological domain.

 

There is no denying the validity of the points put forth by you. The theory is simple and profound. If we believe in Determinism - then the whole argument of becoming lazy is rather pointless, because as you correctly mentioned - since every thing is pre determined, there is no question of a native becoming lazy of his own free will. His laziness, therefore, will be pre-determined.

 

Sir, however, kindly explain this further - if everything is pre-determined, then what makes your life and Lalit Sharma ji's life and Ramachandran ji's life and my life so very different from each other? What, according to the theory as you mention, differentiates the amount of suffering a native is put to in an entire life time? Can a murder be justified with the claim that "its all HIS will, for I can do nothing?"

 

Sir, this is a very confusing situation for me, and I look forward to what you have to so. Clearly, you are extremely well read, and your thinking and conceptual grasp seems most profound. I will be eagerly awaiting your reply.

 

Best Regards

Deepa

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Dear Deepa,

 

The question of individuality, the difference between, you, me, Lalit sharma and Ramachantra rao - our empirical level of exestence - ( not our transcentantal level where we are all same) - can easily be accounted for by the difference in our Karmic deterministic pattern, as revealed by the different natal charts. At emprical level, the jeevatmas have different programms, roles, projects, destinies. And you could divine this different patterns of karma from the birth charts. That is what astrology is all about.

Isin't it? Where is the difficulty?

 

As to your question about being murder justifiable or not, I shal make a distinction between Legislation and Astrology. While astrology is based on determinism like all other regorous sciences, Legislation is based on the notion of free will. Law in any society does not recognise determinism and is not founded on that assumption. Law believes that we are all free - we have free will and hence we are totally responsible for what we do.

 

The notion of responsibility is intimately linked with free will. Other wise , if we dont have free will , we cannot be held responsible for what we do.

Take the example of an automatic accident. Suppose a man is waking down a mountain , and at that time a big rock rolled down and hit him dead. Can we hold the rock to be responsible for its murdering the man and punish the rock? That would be funny isint it? The rock could be the cause but it is not Responsible , because to attribute responsibility the agent must have free will. Machanical events cannot be assigned responsibility because mechanisms have no free will and could not behave in any other way. The stone had no freedom not to fall at that time and hence could not be punished for doing so.

 

Similarly we don't convict a dog or snake or any other animal in the court of law if they bite any body. Nor we assign responsibility to some one who is mad . Because we dont assign and free will to the animals and mentally ill.

 

But we assume in society a mentally healty humen has free will and hence responsible for what their actions. This is the way we opperate in society and legislation is based on this notion.

 

If a man commiting a murder at 40 years could be predicted the day he is born, then he is just a mechanism following simply a predetermined course of events. Can he be held responsible for his act in such a case? what does it meen to say he is responsible for the act of murder when it is already pre designed when he is born? If astrology by the planetory combination at his birth could predict that he is going to do this act at such and such time then what is the sence to say he is responsible?

 

Do you get it? If determinism is true, free will doesnot exist then the concept of responsibility does not apply. Hence the the case of punishment does not arrise. It must be considered just a mechanical mindless event like the stone rollong down or snake bitting.

 

However this is not how we function in society . We assume free will and hence responsibility, and punish 'criminals' and so on. We are not comfortable with deterministic thesis and we feel determinism would justify murder, and a variety of other crimes.

 

But our feeling uncomfortable with the deterministic thesis, our feeling that we have free will. has nothing to do with the truth. We are simply ignorant. That we think that we have Free will but free will it self is an an illusion. We feel that we have free will because we dont know the laws that opperate behind our behaviour. Our assumption that we have free will comes from this ignorance. I shall give an anology to demonstrate my point. Think of a stone - a metrioid - falling to earth from outer space. Also assume that the meteroid on tis way to earth suddenly , by some strange fluck , aquired consciousness. Now the stone will ask itself- because it is conscious - why it is going the way it is going? " Why am I moving this way". But it will have no knowledge of the laws of gravitation- it has not studied it. Because of this ignorance it will never arrive at the right answer to its, question , Finding there is no external cause for its moving the path it takes, the conscious stone would conclude that it is moving the way it is moving out of its "free will"- that it wanted to move that way - even though it is exactly following deterministically the laws of gravity.

 

We are like this stone. Our ignorance of what determine our behaviour makes us feel we are doing it out of our will and we are responsible for it. Spiritual texts calls this as 'ego'. Arjun thought he is fighting the war and he is responsible for that and was perplexed at that, as he dint want to kill his own relatives. Krishna has to show that it is an illusion . By his Viswarupa he demonstrated Arjuna that every thing is predetermined - people and creatures are entering the mouth of one of the heads of the visvarupa. Gauravas (and even Pandavas -latter) entering the mouth of Kaala . There by Krisna showed Arjuna that Arjuna is killing them and is responsible for it is an illusion. They are already killed ( in a deterministic sence) by Krisna and Arjuna is mearly beating the dead snake.- no need to be egoistic - "I am doimng them "- Lord is doing all.

 

This is the essence of karma yoga again - taught in bahgavad geeta. Knowing you are ( your empirical self Jeevatma) a deterministic creature act with out the the notion of you are doing - act with out ego.

 

Astrology helps to achive this spritual maturity . This is the true role of astrology.

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[rnramachandran]

Thanks for the explanation. if you have any articles already with you, can you share the same with us.

Ramachandran

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Dear R.N. Ramachandran,

 

Do specify what exact aspect that you wish to know. If it is on determinism and free will debate , it is an age old philosophic debate and there are excellent accounts of it in the internet. You only need to enter the kew words determinism and free will.

 

If you are looking for some thing specific let me know.

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[rnramachandran]

(this is just to interpret the following: i saw a dream last saturday. i was going through a hole in a well and reaches some place. the other side it is a different world w. I was asking some people about something which i don't recollect. there was three devi idols. one devi speaks to me and shows me some address and asking her something buti goes there i saw my mother there and she was busy going to some places and asking her something but as usual she fires me i don't why, She expired just one year back and than i woke up. whatever it may be i had the feeling that i met my mother and i was having a different nice feeling of the world.

 

the above makes wonder whether you would be having any views/articles on the following subject.

 

I am looking views and articles from the following aspects, detaiiled vedic views on universe/galaxies/outside world. after the above i was also thinking a lot about the subejct

 

yes i agree with your view that we are here to perform certian predetermined action. but why are we in this world? from where, in this part of earth or some other world, if so possibily What did we do there, where did we do, when did we do. are we facing consequences of what we did something in other world? is there any article on the above subject.

 

My thoughts are that originaly we are not from this world and we are here to complete a cycle in this world itself to get to someother world, may be it is passover. the pre determined action is something to do with that. i feel it is like a jail, consider when somebody is sentenced he has to spent the period in jail and only after that period he comes out and see the outside world.

 

i also assume that Gods we are worshipping is the represenative of the supernatural force and they are the only force who can lead us to get mukti from this world like a Judge. i also feel that Gods also as represenative has some responsbiliites to be carried out in this world.

 

I am sure i may or may not be worng but i thought that i should post the message in this forum.

 

if you have any ariticles on the above would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

ignore the mistakes

 

 

Ram

[rnramachandran]

(this is just to interpret the following: i saw a dream last saturday. i was going through a hole in a well and reaches some place. the other side it is a different world. I was asking some people about something which i don't recollect. there was three devi idols. one devi speaks to me and shows me some address and goes there i saw my mother there and she was busy going to some places and asking her something but as usual she fires me i don't why, She expired just one year back and than i woke up. whatever it may be i had the feeling that i met my mother and i was having a different nice feeling of the world.

 

the above makes wonder whether you would be having any views/articles on the following subject.

 

I am looking views and articles from the following aspects, detaiiled vedic views on universe/galaxies/outside world. after the above i was also thinking a lot about the subejct

 

yes i agree with your view that we are here to perform certian predetermined action. but why are we in this world? from where, in this part of earth or some other world, if so possibily What did we do there, where did we do, when did we do. are we facing consequences of what we did something in other world? is there any article on the above subject.

 

My thoughts are that originaly we are not from this world and we are here to complete a cycle in this world itself to get to someother world, may be it is passover. the pre determined action is something to do with that. i feel it is like a jail, consider when somebody is sentenced he has to spent the period in jail and only after that period he comes out and see the outside world.

 

i also assume that Gods we are worshipping is the represenative of the supernatural force and they are the only force who can lead us to get mukti from this world like a Judge. i also feel that Gods also as represenative has some responsbiliites to be carried out in this world.

 

I am sure i may or may not be worng but i thought that i should post the message in this forum.

 

if you have any ariticles on the above would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

ignore the mistakes

 

 

Ram

[deepa.bhandari]

Respected Ravindran ji,

 

The expanse of your last two posts have to be still sorted out by my probe and I sincerely hope and pray that you shall answer my queries although the other discussions with shri rnramachandran ji may continue side-by-side - that is another most interesting dream to dicuss.

 

The question of individuality, the difference between, you, me, Lalit sharma and Ramachantra rao - our empirical level of exestence - ( not our transcentantal level where we are all same) - can easily be accounted for by the difference in our Karmic deterministic pattern, as revealed by the different natal charts. At emprical level, the jeevatmas have different programms, roles, projects, destinies. And you could divine this different patterns of karma from the birth charts. That is what astrology is all about.

Isin't it? Where is the difficulty?

 

 

Dear Sir, what decides this karmic deterministic pattern? The quintessential pedagogy that revolves around the paradigm of vedic astrology is that our past karmas decide our exact time and place of birth - its the karmic pattern that decides the mundane existence of a native.

 

Accoding to your post, does it mean that your life is different from mine simply because we were born at different times? Or is it that our past karmas decide when we are to be born - and that precisely shows the difference??

 

The way I knew it - is what is often repeated " a person is born at that place, on that day and on that moment when his individual fate according to his past actions is in perfect mathematical harmony with the progress of the stars in heaven."

 

Please do clarify Ravindran ji..

 

Best Regards

Deepa

[rohini_nakshatra]

Ravindranji,

 

I have a question. So following the theory of karma and determinism, our every action is predetermined just as surely as the path a falling meteor is going to take. It is unfamiliarity with the higher laws governing these actions that leads to the illusion of free will. In fact, at birth itself our fate is already decided by our accumulated karma from past lives.

 

Tracing back this path of destiny, if everyone's fate is already decided, then at what point did our destinies diverge? Were we all created different to start with, and that has lead to our own unique actions, personality (which determines our way of thinking etc)? Where does it all start? And why is it that every jeevatma was to take on a different destiny? I have heard that we can break away from our fate only when we achieve enlightenment/ God/self-realization. so then, this too is predetermined. So why is that every soul is different and attains this at a different time? Why all this Maya? What is the divine purpose behind all this play?

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Dear Deepa,

Karmic determinism holds that the events of our life is dictated by the unerring cause effect chain that did not just start at one's birth in this life, it has been continuing for millions and millions of births, in unceasing cause effect chain . And it will continue that way till the soul is liberated.Your understanding that, we are born at a particular place , particular time to a particular parents is itself determined as the effect of this long chain of karma , is the right undrerstanding. We are not different because we are born at different space time cooordinate. We are different because we are different karmic patterns to start with, that these pattern differences are mearly diagnosed by the planetery position . (Planets are not to be blamed for our destiny - they are not the cause.).

 

Rigards,

K.Ravindran

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Dear Rohini,

 

The question you are asking relats to the very origin. And questions related to the origin we simply have no known answer. Scientists have been asking similar questions about the physical universe. What is the origin of the universe, how did it start and why etc. Till today there are no satisfactory answers for such questions for any origion question. There are speculations though. For example Physist speculate a few theories on the origin of the universe. One theory called the big bank theory starts tht the universe started with a big bang -It just bust in to existance out of a primal contenced matter. another theory, called the steady state theory assumes that the universe always existed as it is to day and did not perticularly state suddenly at any time. As to the primal matter it self there are differing speculations Some say that universe arouse out of the previous condenced primal matter some say that it arouse out of nothing - from a vacuam state. They are all seeculations. Right now no one knows.

 

This is the same with other origin questions- in religion , in spirituality . We say in religion that the universe is created by god . Because everything must have a cause . Then if we push further what is the cause of god? Who or what created god? then we are in trouble. Some say that god is uncaused God exists always. ( but that is a failure of our cause effect reasoning isint it? ) Some say god is self creatrd He aor she is created himself or herself ( that too is problematic conception isint it) Some relogion say that there was a first god that arouse out a a primal stuff called Chaos- this is the greek verson. (Similar to hindu impersonal Bhraman) . Tibeten buddhism would hold all gods and everything just sprang out of a void - soonya. The truth is all answers to the origion questions are vague and unsasfactory.

 

It is not only we dont know the answers for the questions related to origin, we cannot know them !

There is a reason for this unknowability. If every thing has a cause , then what is the cause of first cause? How do you answer that, with out going to an infinite regress ? (God is cerated by another god, and that god by yet another god and so on up to infinity) If you want to avoid infinite regress you need to stop it at some where ,but then you are not explaining any more.

 

Why did god created the world at the first place? Why the jeevatmans who were all paramatman originally, united with bhraman became jevatman? Why maya? Why not bhraman remained bhraman? There are no satisfactoty answers fot these question and no satisfactory answers can be ever found. Though there are less regorous speculations. one such speculation is god created the world just for play It his his/her leela. No specic reason. Because you cannot subject god's action to reason that would make even god under deterministic law - that god is law bound and compelled to do things out of those laws. Hence, since you cannot apply causation and reason to god , you cannot explain why God created the universe. You cannot explain the orgin simply because if you do, then it is not the origin - you have invented one more entity before the origin .

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Dear R.N Ramachandran,

 

If you are looking for vadic cosmology, there is very little material in vada . the available cosmology is archic - we can make very little sense of them rationally. they are mystic stuf and you need an mystical experience to make sense of them. One such source is Purusha Suktam . This text describes how the cosmos came in to existance from the various parts of the Purusha ... from eve came surya, from mind came chandra... and so on.

 

Puranas could be more readable sourse, though highly imaginary in nature. The 14 bhuvanas and the like.

 

Modern scientific cosmology is the best if you are interseted to know about the universe and space and even alternate universes. Though they will not contain any spiritual contents.

 

The best choice is to read some of the accounts of mystics who have experienced transcendendance. ( I dont have off hand the references of such mystic's account of the universe. In case recollect the sourse I will let you inform).

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[rohini_nakshatra]

Dear Ravindran ji,

 

I am amazed at the clarity of your thought processes and scientific rigor. I had never thought about things in this way.

Especially the application of logic to look at theory of self, just beautiful. And the way that you explained the debate of free will and determinism, it was very interesting and thought-provoking. To tell you the truth, for the first time i was able to connect things from the beginning to the end without giving up in between. The whole logical explanation about science, astrology and the human condition...wow!! i had never thought about astrology as a 'model', but now i can appreciate how appropriate that is, and we tend to lose this distinction between the model and what it represents.

 

Thanks

[deepa.bhandari]

Respected Lalit Sharma ji - Where arst thou?? Please participate...

 

Dear Rohini_Nakshatra - you must be good looking Whats your name? Great to know you

 

Respected Ravindran Ji

 

Best Regards! I have been a little occupied and going through the entire content of this thread, each word and each building block is most enlightening. This may sound really cliche but thank you so much!

 

I agree that the source or cause for everything is a recursive process with no end. We might as well get to "Who created God"? The effort of speculating most seemingly logical theories also becomes futile as there is no body or no proof as to what the ultimate truth is.

 

Now, in your last post responding to me, you wrote-

 

Dear Deepa, if you have seen the truth of who you are really from this post than you have got it. If you have got it there is nothing else you need to get more - spiritually. All your doughts will fall off. The only thing remaining for you then is to stabilise in this understanding -in this witness consciousness . Even if you have got it perfectly now, you might , over a period of time, loose this insight and slowly fall back to the false identity. To counter that you need to engage in practicing it in life by way of karma yoga. Practice karma yoga of accepting things as they are and not desiring anything, while you go about doing your daily duity. It does not require renouncing the world. True renounciation is detatchment from the emprical realm , in the knowledge that you have nothing to do with the emprical. Like King Janaka the Raja Rishi, who did not renounce his kingdom but went about fulfilling all the duities that his kingly role demanded. But yet he is considered to be the greatest sage, as he did all that with detachment- without ego.

I will be extremely grateful, if you could elaborate upon this, and lead the path.

 

Best Regards,

Deepa Bhandari

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Dear Deepa,

 

Though I dont know you personally, I know that you are very spiritual. One of the reason that I have for this hunch is your question about attraction to gurus and saints. I did not answer that question explicitly, which I shall do now.

 

You must have noticed either from your familiority with many other young girls that some of them have a secret desire - or even open desire - to become a movie star. you must have noticed that such girls are mad of any movie star. They admire and hero worship them. This is natural as whatever we want to become - what ever we aspire to become - but not yet succeeded- will hold an attraction for us. Those who have alreadty achieved that status will exert a magnitic influence on us.

 

This is the same with spiritual aspiration too. If there is a spiritual aspitation deep in you, you will naturally be attracted to all those who already achieved - or appears to have achieved - a high level of spirituality. This is so even if you are unaware of this urge consciously. In fact the attrection is more stronger if it is unconscious.

 

The attraction to spritual gurus and saints is the attraction to your own potential - yet unactualized spirituality.

 

There is a second and very sure evidence that you are spiritual deep down.

Your reaction to my post on 'who are you'. Your reaction show a clear evidence that you got it - not just verbally understood it, not just an intellectual grasp - but actually seen the truth that you are not the body but a formless undefinable consciousness beyond all the emprical manifestation - however short lived that direct seeing might have been. Now, this can only happen if you are spiritually advanced. Jnana yoga, though is the royal path to self realisation is by no means easy one - however simple and easy it might appear to you - and many will not get it.

 

Having got it I dont want you to loose it. If you stabilise in that state, that is true jnana yoga meditation. You need to ask "Who am I?" And continuously engaged in it for a while. This this a great meditation technique prescribed by Ramana maharisi. By this inquiry, any answer comming from emprical realm must be rejected and the enquiry continued: "Am i my body - annamaya kosa? No - that is an oblect I know, not the knower. Am I my breath Pranamaya kosa? No That too is an object that I happened to know and not the knower, Am I my mind -Manomaya kosa? No That too is an objct for the witnessing conscious. Am My intlectual sheeth - vijnanamaya kosa - No. That too is my intlectual object and not me. Am I the bliss (and sorrow and a variety of fealings) - ananda maya kosa, No That too is an object for my awareness and not me". By this way, any definitions you state , are rejected with the clear grasping that they are all your definitions - you are making them and cannot be you the maker of those definitions.

 

Thus transcendending all the levels of existance, having arrived clearly at the transcentantal- I you stay in that feeling. You will be conscious in this state but without a ego boundry - with out a limiting definition. Stay in that state. You can do it any time. In the middle of your bussy work . When you are casting a horoscope for somebody ask who is behind this act. While you are eating your food ask who eats. By this way you make a constant pracctice of not slipping away of the witness consciousness. Witness everything . Be a transcendantal witness . Stabilise in this transcendantal witness state. Like a molten ghee poring with out breaking the flow in to the lamp you should stay in this awareness with out breaking the awareness of witness consciousness. Though initially many times it will be broken and you will fall back to your usual false identification of body mind complex in due course if you practice as a continuous meditation you will stay in this state with out loosing it.

 

When you live in this state and do all your activities - your karmas - you dont accumulate the karmas, as you are not doing them now . You are mearly a detached witness of what goes on in the emprical realm. The karma no more can find you and return to you. You are free from the karmic determinism. This state is called Jeevan mukti - because you are simply beyond the binding of karma. You have nothing to do with them they go on by them self.

 

Karmas are of three types. Sanjita, Prarapta and Agamiya. Sanjita karmas are the heep of karmic seeds of millions and millions of past life. They are not yet active but qued up waiting to be activated in some time. Prarapta are the set of karma which are ulready activated and bearing fruit and are running the present life. Aagamiya is of future karma yet to come.

 

If you do yoga, any yoga, your sanjita gets burned or roasted -they cannot germinate. But prarapta that are already active and your present life is nothing but that action , is like an arrow already realised from the bow. It cannot be stopped. Hence you simple accept the unfolging as a witness . once the prarapta gets finished the body dies and since there is no more sanjita left no rebirth occur. The sole is simply released permanantly to its natural abode - paramatman It attains mukti. Till such time the body mind complex go on automatically - or the prarapta karma goes on automatiically -as the potters wheel - which eventually stops. But this phase of a mukta life with the body is called jeenan mukta.

 

This is all that you need as a spiritual technique. This is a royal path.

Of course you can be devoted to a god or a genune spiritual master. It is a good thing to do Bhakti. But do bakti along with jnana. Bhakti is aspiring to become the one who e you are not yet. Jana is stabilising in that ultimate potential state which you already are. If you stebilise in Jana yoga the othrer two Bakti and Karma yogas are automatic bonus.

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[deepa.bhandari]

Most Respected Ravindran ji,

 

I feel blessed and at peace to know you find me spiritually inclined. On a mundane level, I believe it is a product of a lot of sufferings, an emotional upbringing and god-gifted intellect. I really believe in Maslow's heirarchy of needs, we are all running after something we need- the domain might differ for each one of us. In my recently developed but obsessive spiritual pursuit, I have often been at a threshold where I feel I have wronged my guru.

 

Ravindran ji, I had shirdi sai baba's vision when I was only 5. My family tells me I cried so much they had to find out who he was and then had to take me to shirdi. Since then everyone in my family prays him. Needless to say, there have been several instances which no logic nor science can explain. We owe it to Baba's immense krupa. I am no exception here, there are n number of devotees who feel the same way. As a devotee, he was and should always remain the end target in my life. Attaining him, should account for salvation.

 

I know you would have seen "but" and "should" above. I succumbed to astrology after I found the truth in it. Then I calculated my ishta devta, palana hara, etc. There being mixed religions at my parents house and as well as mine (inter-caste marriage), I feel confused with the path to follow.

 

I had the opportunity to learn the techniques of transcendental meditation through teachers of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. But I havent been able to imbibe it into everyday life. Same holds true for Art of Living technique by Sri Sri Ravi Shankara.

 

Ravindran ji, you are God sent, and may I say, I can never look back at life as it was, after this divine revelation that you bring to me.

 

Best Wishes

Deepa

[NAXSHATRA]

 

Respected Lalit Sharma ji - Where arst thou?? Please participate...

 

Very much on the line Deepaji!

PARTYING AND ANTICIPATING MORE OF WEAVING!

 

Please carry on!

 

i feel if we take ,role of prarabdha,our present actions,the reasons of being in action,with action related material with relativity of time{SAMAY} simultaneously,we can scatch a clearer picture!

 

REGARDS TO ALL CONCERNED

 

Lalit

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Dear Deepa,

Sri Sridi Sai is a very very high spiritual being. There is no need for you to seek any other guru really.

 

Of course you can learn various techniques and practices. Transcendantal meditation is good for deep relaxation there by releasing stress.

and art of living breating technique is very good for physical and psychological ailments. Breating technique work at pranamaya kosa and is a link to both body and mind.

 

Hold on to Sri Sainath - like a baby monky holds on to its mother. Sri Sainat will carry you to the spiritual heights - you dont have to do anything specially- just hold on to Sairam.

 

If He has come to you in your child hood then you are ment for him. He has claimed you as his spiritual desiple and child. You can be sure that your spiritual journey is assured. No need to seek after new new gurus.

 

My suggestion: Dont ask him for anything material from him. Look at his own life - he rejected mtreriality completely is int it? Ask Only for spiritual blessings. You will be richly rewarded.

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[deepa.bhandari]

Respected Ravindran ji,

 

No words to express. I remain indebted, indebted to you my whole life and many many more to come.

 

Could I please have your personal email id?

 

My obeissance and lot of regards

Deepa

[Ravindran Kesavan]

My Email ID is : ravi@tiss.edu

Regards,

K.Ravindran