the varna-ashrama thing

[Kulapavana]

In order for an idea to change the world, it must be practical. KC movement as introduced by Prabhupada was practical and appealed to a certain group of people at a particular moment in time. The concept of varnashrama never took roots among the devotees because very few of them see any benefit of introducing it into their own life, let alone introducing it into general society.

[suchandra]

 

correct definitions

 

Varnashram was never installed. They considered that within the temples there's only Vaikuntha, the spiritual world, devoid of any material impurity.

And because there's only pure transcendence in the temple no need for varnashram, something 2nd class. Meanwhile they have within the temples mainly paid personnel, temples being lend out for mundane Hindu ceremonies and all kind of gymanstic yoga, tinker/handicrafts lessons with costs. But still they speak of correct definitions. The definition is already there, given by Prabhupada, make the society KC in large scale. Since you became a Christian, even fighting people who use the word "congregation" not in context of Christianity, why even spent time with Vaishnavism?

[suchandra]

 

In order for an idea to change the world, it must be practical. KC movement as introduced by Prabhupada was practical and appealed to a certain group of people at a particular moment in time. The concept of varnashrama never took roots among the devotees because very few of them see any benefit of introducing it into their own life, let alone introducing it into general society.

Prabhupada's parameters were meant to install agricultural projects of producing milk products, fruits and vegetables. For a Vaishnava to say, producing food is not practical is pretty much off-key. You mean to say, it is better if the sinful karmis produce our food and the Vaishnavas should buy it for the next ten thousand years at the discount supermarket chain? Well, this actually fits perfectly to ISKCON's present preaching mood.

[Kulapavana]

 

Prabhupada's parameters were meant to install agricultural projects of producing milk products, fruits and vegetables. For a Vaishnava to say, producing food is not practical is pretty much off-key. You mean to say, it is better if the sinful karmis produce our food and the Vaishnavas should buy it for the next ten thousand years at the discount supermarket chain? Well, this actually fits perfectly to ISKCON's present preaching mood.

 

you can produce food without trying to implement varnashrama, it is done all the time... reducing varnashrama to rural living is extremely naive.

[suchandra]

 

you can produce food without trying to implement varnashrama, it is done all the time... reducing varnashrama to rural living is extremely naive.

 

Like any other vedic term, the very term varnashrama can be adjusted to present requirements. You might call it reducing, others call it expanding, the goal should be to get human society based upon prasadam, offering their food to God, stopp killing the cows, etc. Hope you don't call this vision "extremely naive".

[Kulapavana]

 

You mean to say, it is better if the sinful karmis produce our food and the Vaishnavas should buy it for the next ten thousand years at the discount supermarket chain? Well, this actually fits perfectly to ISKCON's present preaching mood.

 

It all starts at the top. True brahmanas do not MANAGE projects or control the society or it's money. They merely advise the managers speaking the truth, leading a simple and austere life. Do you see any of that EVER being the case in Iskcon? What about the idea that ANYBODY can become a brahmana? How is it based on varnasrama realities? It is obviously not working because after so many years we are still very short on brahmanas.

 

Ihe Iskcon idea of varnasrama is fat sannyasi 'brahmanas' living a high life at the expense of regular devotees working hard in the fields or in the streets. That is as bogus as it gets, the same caste 'brahmana' abuse we see in India. What sane person would want to see THAT implemented in Iskcon?

 

Varnasham is not kibutz living, as promoted by various Iskcon sannyasis. It is about individual ownership and merit based social organization as explained in the Gita.

[Kulapavana]

 

Like any other vedic term, the very term varnashrama can be adjusted to present requirements. You might call it reducing, others call it expanding, the goal should be to get human society based upon prasadam, offering their food to God, stopp killing the cows, etc. Hope you don't call this vision "extremely naive".

 

I have been working on practical application of varnashram principles for close to 30 years. I know what is practical and what is not. Have you ever tried to live off the land? How about actually producing a crop from that land?

 

For most devotees of your generation, varnasrama ideal is some happy hippie commune, miraculously able to feed the world from just a few acres and a small herd of milking cows... IMO they simply smoked too much reefer in their youth to think straight anymore...

[cbrahma]

 

Varnashram was never installed. They considered that within the temples there's only Vaikuntha, the spiritual world, devoid of any material impurity.

And because there's only pure transcendence in the temple no need for varnashram, something 2nd class. Meanwhile they have within the temples mainly paid personnel, temples being lend out for mundane Hindu ceremonies and all kind of gymanstic yoga, tinker/handicrafts lessons with costs. But still they speak of correct definitions. The definition is already there, given by Prabhupada, make the society KC in large scale. Since you became a Christian, even fighting people who use the word "congregation" not in context of Christianity, why even spent time with Vaishnavism?

I don't follow you. Vaisnavism may be inclusive of Christianity, but churchianity is not. The concept of a congregation is borne of clericism. I know that is defnitely not what Prabhupada intended. Without going into the details, varna-asrama is supposedly a universal principle for organizing material society quite unrelated to 'joining up' to a temple.

 

 

I don't personally support ISKCON in becoming a religion, but they are surely doing so with the support of many devotees. I'm proposing that we recognize Srila Prabhupada as the Sampradaya Acarya and do our utmost to focus on his spiritual movement, the Hare Krishna movement. Srila Prabhupada said many times that his sankirtana movement is not a church and should not be seen as such. In fact, the author himself quotes Jayapataka Swami as saying that ISKCON is going to turn out to be just like the Christian churches, which are empty. Of course, this is a prophecy that came to pass, ultimately due to lack of leadership and conviction.

Rocana dasa

 

[cbrahma]

 

I have been working on practical application of varnashram principles for close to 30 years. I know what is practical and what is not. Have you ever tried to live off the land? How about actually producing a crop from that land?

 

For most devotees of your generation, varnasrama ideal is some happy hippie commune, miraculously able to feed the world from just a few acres and a small herd of milking cows... IMO they simply smoked too much reefer in their youth to think straight anymore...

New Vrndava was not a self-sustaining rural community?

[Kulapavana]

 

New Vrndava was not a self-sustaining rural community?

 

only if you count bringing in millions of dollars per year from the pick as 'rural self-sustinance'

[cbrahma]

 

only if you count bringing in millions of dollars per year from the pick as 'rural self-sustinance'

the 'pick'?

[Kulapavana]

 

the 'pick'?

 

and you claim to have been around in those days??

 

'the pick' is street selling of all kinds of gadgets (records, hats ,stickers, flowers, etc) in the name of 'supporting the sankirtana mission'. It was a HUGE enterprise in NV and the official reason for their downfall (see the trademark and copyright infingement court case

[theist]

"The pick" as in "pick the bone and bring it home." IOW go out on 'Sankirtana ' and fleece the public for every cent you can get from them and then bring it back to the temple authorities for their condos and retirement funds.

 

I alway credited Guru Krpa as the origin of this saying but could be wrong.

[cbrahma]

 

and you claim to have been around in those days??

 

'the pick' is street selling of all kinds of gadgets (records, hats ,stickers, flowers, etc) in the name of 'supporting the sankirtana mission'. It was a HUGE enterprise in NV and the official reason for their downfall (see the trademark and copyright infingement court case

I wasn't a big sankirtana devotee. But towards the end with Rameswara it wasn't called that. They went out under all disguises but nobody called it that.

[cbrahma]

 

and you claim to have been around in those days??

 

'the pick' is street selling of all kinds of gadgets (records, hats ,stickers, flowers, etc) in the name of 'supporting the sankirtana mission'. It was a HUGE enterprise in NV and the official reason for their downfall (see the trademark and copyright infingement court case

 

I didn't live in New Vrndavan and I still don't get your point.

[suchandra]

 

I have been working on practical application of varnashram principles for close to 30 years. I know what is practical and what is not. Have you ever tried to live off the land? How about actually producing a crop from that land?

 

For most devotees of your generation, varnasrama ideal is some happy hippie commune, miraculously able to feed the world from just a few acres and a small herd of milking cows... IMO they simply smoked too much reefer in their youth to think straight anymore...

Summarized, you reject Prabhupada - his knowledge was not timeless - has to be handled with care. You yourself tried your own ideas for 30 years and failed, what can be said? This ilk of Vaishnava can be only advised to go to school to those who have the knowledge - to the non-Vaishnavas. They have the knowledge how to grow food, they know how to set up a perfect efficient global network and they know how to sell it for the right price to the Vaishnavas. Thank God because He's giving them the knowledge how to accomplish all this!

And again wrong, no, I didnt smoke what you're suggesting.

Also see: Mother Earth News

[Kulapavana]

 

I didn't live in New Vrndavan and I still don't get your point.

 

The point is that they were not in any way depending on agriculture for their sustinence. They made all their money on the pick and made the show of 'simple living' using that money. Thus New Vrndavan was not a self-sustaining rural community in any shape or form. At one time they were the biggest employer in their county: they employed a bunch of karmi workers on their farming and dairy jobs while NV devotees were out on a pick to make money for their (karmis) salaries... it was insane... Some would call it a crazy money laundering scheme

[Kulapavana]

 

Summarized, you reject Prabhupada - his knowledge was not timeless - has to be handled with care. You yourself tried your own ideas for 30 years and failed, what can be said?

 

I never rejected Prabhupada but when it comes to re-introducing varnashrama he was in an ucharted territory...

 

So, are you saying that Prabhupada had a perfect model of self sufficiency and varnashrama which has never been placed in practice because of some nasty conspiracy and I am just wasting my time with my own ideas? Or that the "one acre and one cow" as he once suggested is a perfect model?

 

First of all, there is no such model, just a collection of quotes and ideas, as the book "SP on Varnasram" clearly shows. Second, all over the world devotees tried to put Prabhupada's idea of 'simple living' in place without a whole lot to show for the 40 years of their efforts. Too bad they were NOT reading Mother Earth News.

 

As to my efforts: I have a decent garden every year and if things got ugly I could probably survive for a lot longer than an average bhakta.

[suchandra]

 

Thus New Vrndavan was not a self-sustaining rural community in any shape or form.

But who ever said that they tried for this? So far the video documents show us they wanted to have a palace of gold - the leader of the farm hankered for a golden throne with crown and scepter. Was there any time to set up latest technology of greenhouses and efficient food processing equipment? So far we heard that local neighborhood were forced into turning away from cooperating with the devotees at New Vrindavan, since they found there's only the super expensive construction of a golden palace in the center, but nothing close what can be called actual big style farming.

 

Learning how to do farming: http://ofrf.org/index.html

[Kulapavana]

 

So far we heard that local neighborhood were forced into turning away from cooperating with the devotees at New Vrindavan, since they found there's only the super expensive construction of a golden palace in the center, but nothing close what can be called actual farming going on.

 

The locals were always hostile to NV, and in many ways still are. K-swami had plenty of brainwashed devotees to volountarily follow him on his deranged trip which started even before Prabhupada lef the planet. He was a wrong leader from day 1.

 

Anyway, forget the kibutz or kolhoz commune ideas. They never worked in the long range and never will. If you want good models I can direct you to several small scale organic farming devotees who actually make a living from agriculture. They are the model.

[suchandra]

 

The locals were always hostile to NV, and in many ways still are. K-swami had plenty of brainwashed devotees to volountarily follow him on his deranged trip which started even before Prabhupada lef the planet. He was a wrong leader from day 1.

 

Anyway, forget the kibutz or kolhoz commune ideas. They never worked in the long range and never will. If you want good models I can direct you to several small scale organic farming devotees who actually make a living from agriculture. They are the model.

Thanks very much, no need for this! If there would be something outstanding the news would read like this:

 

Hare Krsna Number One In Global High Quality Vegetable Production

 

Unless there's such news, I don't even click on any model links.

 

When googling "Vegetable Production" there're 700,000 karmi results, nothing about organic farming devotees.

 

Muhammed Mustafa: "I can teach the Vaishnavas how to do it".

[Kulapavana]

 

Thanks very much, no need for this! If there would be something outstanding the news would read like this:

 

Hare Krsna Number One In Global High Quality Vegetable Production

 

Unless there's such news, I don't even click on any model links.

 

If you want institutional sponsorship models and big headlines, Maharishi's organization has some outstanding achievements. All you get from Iskcon is hot air...

[suchandra]

 

If you want institutional sponsorship models and big headlines, Maharishi's organization has some outstanding achievements. All you get from Iskcon is hot air...

We have to get these ISKCON people back on track. They just need to know how full of nasty chemicals their bought vegetables are when putting on the offering plate for the deities.

See: 12 Most Contaminated Fruits And Vegetables In US

[cbrahma]

http://www.newtalavana.org/

[suchandra]

 

http://www.newtalavana.org/

 

New Talavana is installed as an alibi to simulate that the GBC is pro vedic farming although they clearly suppressed vedic farming everywhere else. New Talavana makes you believe it would be possible if the devotees would work for it. When looking more close you'll soon find out that vedic farming is everywhere else hoodwinked by the GBC. If New Talavana is actually booted up to full capacity with latest farming know how to efficiently produce high quality fruits and vegetables and adapted modern greenhouse hitec and other selfsufficient clean energy technology is rather doubtful. ISKCON's figurehead for vedic farming, New Talavana, looks like a facade not allowing you to see behind the curtain.

 

 

The 'S' in ISKCON

 

BY: DUSYANTA DASA

 

Jun 30, WALES, UK 2008 — There are so many benefits in community and self-sufficiency. My belief is that ISKCON has been unable or incapable to establish these projects. In 1990, we set up such a project in West Wales, after 10 years at the Manor and Chaitanya College previously. In our first year we were self-sufficient in so many things. The list is long. It is not hard to do and does not take long to achieve (if you know what you're doing).

 

Srila Prabhupada rated these projects as very important for ISKCON. The reasons for this are many. For ISKCON to function on the "society" level, first community and self-Sufficiency have to be established. Essentially, community has 4 stages to progress through and self-sufficiency, on multi levels, is a lifetimes commitment. For ISKCON, these 2 factors, community and self-sufficiency, go hand-in-hand. One without the other does not work.

 

In community dynamics, ISKCON has not been able or allowed to progress naturally through the different stages. As self-sufficiency has not been on anyone's agenda, then its no wonder that community and therefore society has not worked. So we find ourselves in a kind of impersonal institutional homogenised nowhere. As various devotees have written at length on this subject with very little interest from the devotee "community", one wonders why?

 

Why is it that as a "society" we are not that interested in one of Srila Prabhupada's very important instructions? Not only that, but from a material perspective food production has come to the forefront of world consciousness. ISKCON's ability to be independent of world markets has failed miserably and we are forced to eat food produced from chemicals, petro-oil industry and exploitation. There's hardly a soul in ISKCON who's independent and not implicated in these nefarious activities.

 

But Srila Prabhupada emphasized over a generation ago how important this is. He established the foundational work Himself and handed the instructions to us on a gold plate and all we had to do was do it. As far as individuals are concerned we are doing it, but what on earth has happened to ISKCON?????

 

My GUESS is that the lifestyle that is symbiotic with these projects, dare i say it, SIMPLE living, has not been embraced by the managers who assumed that role after 1977. Although this comes as the most responsible of positions, it also means the most exemplary of behaviour, standards, equanimity and decisions. This has not happened and so ISKCON is in a vacuum, as community and self-sufficiency are only memories at best.

 

In community dynamics we find that the individual benefits from the inherent lifestyle so that individuals prone to corruption from the material energy are protected. The ISKCON model has shown the opposite effect - individuals exploit the material energy to disastrous consequences for them and others. This can be called "the rugged- individual" effect, which is diametrically opposed to convivial spiritual life.

 

Another huge benefit from community is the absence of extravagant lifestyles, wastage and bad decision making. Because community goes hand in hand with self-sufficiency, the economic basis is shifted from money to wealth produced from the land and cows. Decisions are made at istagosthis, not behind closed doors where corruption can get a foothold. So the buzz word becomes inclusive, not exclusive.

 

We can see that the adopted model that ISKCON follows has only worked against the members of ISKCON and the managers who have adopted that model -- in other words, it has helped no one. The authority in ISKCON has not only diminished because of it, but the model has taught how to mistrust authority. This has had a negative influence on many members of ISKCON. So the authority has become power-less over the majority of ISKCON and disenfranchised the members.

 

In community the opposite effect is true. The model increases trust, happiness, authority and cooperation. In fact, a self-sufficient community is such a strong dynamic that it can even accommodate opposites in its members without disenfranchising them. I believe this is called unity in diversity. Simple things like cows, land and self-sufficiency, when put together in community dynamics, is actually where it's at. We have instructions to follow and we can have practical examples to prove it. Can you imagine the preaching then!!!!!!!

 

The best philosophy, the best Acarya, and the best lifestyle.

 

Srila Prabhupada ki jai! Let's follow Srila Prabhupada. He is the one who can Lead us, Whom we can Trust, Who has the Authority and can take us back to Krishna.

 

Your servant,

 

Dusyanta dasa