the varna-ashrama thing

[bija]

Thank you suchandra for this very well written article.

 

A dynamic organic farm, centred around devotional life, must be inclusive - not exclusive. Not a cult hide-away that opens its doors for selective choosing of new members through preaching. Instead a place where we can all go to live!!! Live fully our spiritual life! As kali sets in surely there must be people who want to live the dream. Iskcon can provide the way! What is the name of that book about Prabhupada 'He built a house where the whole world can live'. Is that dream dead now?

 

I don't find that inclusive spirit in the institution - too many walls. Anyhow that's just my experience (not for any lack of sincerity).

 

I was at this bon-fire last saturday night. It was a friends birthday - they were all christians. One man lived in a temple in the mid-eighties - he left and eventually burnt all his Bhagavatam set.

 

Two of the men kinda ganged up on me and asked, 'we dont see you guys on the street anymore, where have you all gone?'

 

I did not tell them the sad news that most devotees love the 60's and 70's years and nostalgia but don't do it anymore. I did not tell them that times have changed.

 

For these two men, not seeing devotees in sankirtan, was enough proof that Iskcon is not the truth. They cynically explained through subtlety, if it was a movement of God it would still be vibrant and visible to the public.

 

What better way to show the world that vibrancy, than to have a place where we can live the ideal life - of Krsna centred devotion. Inclusive - for all needing mercy.

 

I pray that we can get over all our sentimentalism about the 60's and 70's and awaken to that dynamic now!

[Amlesh]

Try to know the story of Shivaji Maharaj and his encounter with Saint Tukaram and how and why the great king was asked to seek guru siksha from the great Vaishnava Samarth Ramdas Swami.

 

Very interesting, it will answer everything concerning Varnashrama.

[Amlesh]

The temple life also is very funny, they say that they are not Karmi, but in Substance they are some sort Karmis only.

 

There is no difference between the outside life and temple life. Some of them also fear of losing their place in the temple, if not working hard or making some mistakes... Just like Mr X fearing to get fired.

 

They don't pay much heed to Varna, but they are some sort of using it. Everything has its department and need to report also.

 

It is more like practicing a culture. But I won't deny its importance... but truly, there are things higher than that in the repertoire of Vaishnavism. Read the Gita well, you'll get the answer.

 

SP did whatever he could and also gave all the possibilities, according to our level of consciousness we'll chose our path to make further progress or reach directly Vaikunth after death.

[krsna]

 

The 'S' in ISKCON

BY: DUSYANTA DASA

 

 

Jun 30, WALES, UK (SUN) —

 

There are so many benefits in community and self-sufficiency. My belief is that ISKCON has been unable or incapable to establish these projects. In 1990, we set up such a project in West Wales, after 10 years at the Manor and Chaitanya College previously. In our first year we were self-sufficient in so many things. The list is long. It is not hard to do and does not take long to achieve (if you know what you're doing).

 

 

Srila Prabhupada rated these projects as very important for ISKCON. The reasons for this are many. For ISKCON to function on the "society" level, first community and self-Sufficiency have to be established. Essentially, community has 4 stages to progress through and self-sufficiency, on multi levels, is a lifetimes commitment. For ISKCON, these 2 factors, community and self-sufficiency, go hand-in-hand. One without the other does not work.

 

 

In community dynamics, ISKCON has not been able or allowed to progress naturally through the different stages. As self-sufficiency has not been on anyone's agenda, then its no wonder that community and therefore society has not worked. So we find ourselves in a kind of impersonal institutional homogenised nowhere. As various devotees have written at length on this subject with very little interest from the devotee "community", one wonders why?

 

 

Why is it that as a "society" we are not that interested in one of Srila Prabhupada's very important instructions? Not only that, but from a material perspective food production has come to the forefront of world consciousness. ISKCON's ability to be independent of world markets has failed miserably and we are forced to eat food produced from chemicals, petro-oil industry and exploitation. There's hardly a soul in ISKCON who's independent and not implicated in these nefarious activities.

 

 

But Srila Prabhupada emphasized over a generation ago how important this is. He established the foundational work Himself and handed the instructions to us on a gold plate and all we had to do was do it. As far as individuals are concerned we are doing it, but what on earth has happened to ISKCON?????

 

 

My GUESS is that the lifestyle that is symbiotic with these projects, dare i say it, SIMPLE living, has not been embraced by the managers who assumed that role after 1977. Although this comes as the most responsible of positions, it also means the most exemplary of behaviour, standards, equanimity and decisions. This has not happened and so ISKCON is in a vacuum, as community and self-sufficiency are only memories at best.

 

 

In community dynamics we find that the individual benefits from the inherent lifestyle so that individuals prone to corruption from the material energy are protected. The ISKCON model has shown the opposite effect - individuals exploit the material energy to disastrous consequences for them and others. This can be called "the rugged- individual" effect, which is diametrically opposed to convivial spiritual life.

 

 

Another huge benefit from community is the absence of extravagant lifestyles, wastage and bad decision making. Because community goes hand in hand with self-sufficiency, the economic basis is shifted from money to wealth produced from the land and cows. Decisions are made at istagosthis, not behind closed doors where corruption can get a foothold. So the buzz word becomes inclusive, not exclusive.

 

 

We can see that the adopted model that ISKCON follows has only worked against the members of ISKCON and the managers who have adopted that model -- in other words, it has helped no one. The authority in ISKCON has not only diminished because of it, but the model has taught how to mistrust authority. This has had a negative influence on many members of ISKCON. So the authority has become power-less over the majority of ISKCON and disenfranchised the members.

 

 

In community the opposite effect is true. The model increases trust, happiness, authority and cooperation. In fact, a self-sufficient community is such a strong dynamic that it can even accommodate opposites in its members without disenfranchising them. I believe this is called unity in diversity. Simple things like cows, land and self-sufficiency, when put together in community dynamics, is actually where it's at. We have instructions to follow and we can have practical examples to prove it. Can you imagine the preaching then!!!!!!!

 

 

The best philosophy, the best Acarya, and the best lifestyle.

 

Srila Prabhupada ki jai! Let's follow Srila Prabhupada. He is the one who can Lead us, Whom we can Trust, Who has the Authority and can take us back to Krishna.

 

Your servant, Dusyanta dasa

 

 

[Amlesh]

Good, I appreciate that. Count how many are seperatist and how many are still in accordance to SP in the proper way in the Iskcon arena, without offence.

 

There are more internal discord and time are wasted with that than really get the external thing done for the benefit of the world.

 

And my points have not yet been debated, which I'm waiting for; I won't mind to be proved wrong.

[cbrahma]

 

The temple life also is very funny, they say that they are not Karmi, but in Substance they are some sort Karmis only.

 

There is no difference between the outside life and temple life. Some of them also fear of losing their place in the temple, if not working hard or making some mistakes... Just like Mr X fearing to get fired.

 

They don't pay much heed to Varna, but they are some sort of using it. Everything has its department and need to report also.

 

It is more like practicing a culture. But I won't deny its importance... but truly, there are things higher than that in the repertoire of Vaishnavism. Read the Gita well, you'll get the answer.

 

SP did whatever he could and also gave all the possibilities, according to our level of consciousness we'll chose our path to make further progress or reach directly Vaikunth after death.

I give you no argument here. If you want an incentive to live materiallly, live in a temple, especiallly associate with the 'brahmanas' in the Deity kitchen. I've never seen so much offensive high drama. It's really scary.

[Amlesh]

 

I give you no argument here. If you want an incentive to live materiallly, live in a temple, especiallly associate with the 'brahmanas' in the Deity kitchen. I've never seen so much offensive high drama. It's really scary.

 

Yep, I know. Many have used the temple as an excuse to run away from their fear of the material world. Any person fearing to explore the material world for the benefit of Humanity is still a coward.

 

Criticising the material world outside but not knowing that they themselves have become expounder of the Karmic way of living.

[cbrahma]

 

Yep, I know. Many have used the temple as an excuse to run away from their fear of the material world. Any person fearing to explore the material world for the benefit of Humanity is still a coward.

 

Criticising the material world outside but not knowing that they themselves have become expounder of the Karmic way of living.

I had to listen to brahmana initiated disciples of Prabhupada hurl insults at each other while preparing prasadam for Rukmini-Dwarkadish. Really transcendental. Needless to say, I'm not impressed with the religious process of bhakti-marga, with its exclusive elite membership. A joke.

[bija]

 

Many have used the temple as an excuse to run away from their fear of the material world. Any person fearing to explore the material world for the benefit of Humanity is still a coward. by amlesh

 

Excellent observation amlesh. Many of us drop-outs felt drawn to ashram living. Thank Krsna the door never opened, so that we were forced to explore the world, and mature.

[bija]

 

If you want an incentive to live materiallly, live in a temple, especiallly associate with the 'brahmanas' in the Deity kitchen. I've never seen so much offensive high drama. It's really scary. posted by cbrahma

lol...a kitchen is a real litmus test hey. Kitchen work is heavy duty work lol. Pressure for sure!

 

I was in a temple kitchen a few months back - the manager was relaxed and easy. It was nice cbrahma, I was really enjoying it until I cut my finger. I have a virus in my blood, so that was a bummer. I would love to serve in a kitchen - instead of knockin on heavens door.

[cbrahma]

 

lol...a kitchen is a real litmus test hey. Kitchen work is heavy duty work lol. Pressure for sure!

 

I was in a temple kitchen a few months back - the manager was relaxed and easy. It was nice cbrahma, I was really enjoying it until I cut my finger. I have a virus in my blood, so that was a bummer. I would love to serve in a kitchen - instead of knockin on heavens door.

Well if the managers were new immature disciples I would understand it, but the senior disciples were mean mean mean, not just to me but to each other. Puffed up and mean.

[bija]

yuck...men in robes syndrome. Maybe that is a universal syndrome.

 

Surely not all have the syndrome:(.

[Amlesh]

Bhakti has taken a new dimension these days, too many hierarchies. Before we used to call such place as hermitage, ashram etc, today we should call it Organisation, institution etc with its Profit and loss and Balance sheet etc...

 

Perform or get lost.

[bija]

 

Perform or get lost. by amlesh

Seems to be the case. Surely this is not limited to Gaudiya Vaisnavism, but many monasteries, hermitages etc from all traditions.

 

The sad thing Amlesh is that there are very sincere people (still in this world of 21st century modernity) who aspire for the real thing. Infact I am of the opinion that modern society is flawed if it does not make opportunity for such essential expression of humanity.

 

This is such a crucial need for a well world. Many of us turned to drugs and other dropout revolutions in dis-illusionment as teens. When infact the teen dis-illusion was a spiritual crisis, with no outlet. Some kids can see the bull**** of materialism from first hand experience (even if not mature in thinking).

 

Was this real thing Srila Prabhupada's vision also. I dont know?

 

It breaks my heart somedays to have lived that journey first hand....we really need the real thing as kali increases. For the sake of thoughtful kids.

[Amlesh]

SP had a nice vision, but he perfectly knew the natural phenomenon known as Degeneration of the society. And you are right bija, such things are common in all so-called Ashramas.

 

I do understand about the good people, but if they fear about something, then they are no longer good.

 

They've not really surrendered to Krishna since they prefer to cross the sea of material existence through a dog's tail.

 

The need of association is ok [provided the associates are genuine], but it has become a pretext for hiding the fear we have of facing the world alone [infact we are never alone, Krishna is there].

[bija]

 

I do understand about the good people, but if they fear about something, then they are no longer good.

 

They've not really surrendered to Krishna since they prefer to cross the sea of material existence through a dog's tail. by amlesh

Could you please explain what you mean amlesh?

 

You are so right. We are never alone. Life is all around us - we need to realize that presence hey.

[Amlesh]

 

Could you please explain what you mean amlesh?

 

You are so right. We are never alone. Life is all around us - we need to realize that presence hey.

 

It's simple, people often ask where they can get a genuine Guru etc, to advance they need this and that and sometimes the list is very long.

 

Some joins ashramas etc, and very often get themselves betrayed. This is called trying to cross the ocean by a dog's tail.

 

The requirements for perfection is a sincere endeavor, depending on our degree of honesty about our spiritual quest, the Lord will be revealed in the required form. For the most perfected it will be Lord Krishna or Lord Rama or any of the Forms of Vishnu or others you know the unending list.

 

The Guru also will be revealed.. It is only for those surrendered truly that all these things are activated.

 

If a genuine ashrama is there, you'll get admitted by Krishna, if the ashrama is not genuine and you are there, nothing can happen to you [provided you are genuine].

 

Trust Krishna more and continue with your duty.

[suchandra]

 

Thank you suchandra for this very well written article.

 

A dynamic organic farm, centred around devotional life, must be inclusive - not exclusive. Not a cult hide-away that opens its doors for selective choosing of new members through preaching. Instead a place where we can all go to live!!! Live fully our spiritual life! As kali sets in surely there must be people who want to live the dream. Iskcon can provide the way! What is the name of that book about Prabhupada 'He built a house where the whole world can live'. Is that dream dead now?

 

 

Thanks Bija, once again the orders of the acarya seem to be inescapable for us, even when it comes to basic things like to properly prepare our daily meals.

 

As we see, the big Vaishnava institutions considered Prabhupada's appeal to globally set up efficient farming communities for producing first class fruits, vegetables and milk products as kind of "to err is human ideas".

 

However, this negligence created effects with fatal impact. Instead of admitting, we still read posts like, producing food is misra bhakti. Seems like unless people find out that they are having poison on their plates they won't wake up from that dreaming state.

 

Thank to God, at least the non-Vaishnavas agree to Prabhupada's varnashrama order and in this way help the present Vaishnava leaders to orientate themselves and hopefully find the right path.

 

Why the sudden food crisis?

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200880625055

Dennis Keeney • published June 30, 2008 12:15 am

 

 

The world has witnessed with concern the sudden increase in food prices and decrease in availability of food staples, especially in low-income, food-short countries.

 

Rising prices hit hard at the world’s poorest people, who are spending as much as 80 percent of their income on food. These price increases are sentencing as many as 100 million more people to hunger and poverty. Arrows are being slung back and forth about the cause of the “food crisis.” Some place the blame on more affluent emerging countries, particularly China and India. Others blame weather disasters, particularly drought in the wheat-growing regions of China and Australia. And now the nation and the world must cope with the disastrous floods hitting the heart of corn and soybean country in the United States.

 

 

What is the truth? Will we ever sort out what brought on the “silent tsunami” – a term used recently by World Food Program director Josette Sheeran? One thing is for sure: It’s doubtful that rising food prices will come back down soon, if ever. In our human way, we want to find reasons and blame those responsible. Let us not forget: At least 35 million Americans (12 million households) were short of food in 2002, even though our food was still cheap compared to prices in Europe.

 

The basis of the problem lies with us, a society that assumes food comes from a grocery store and that we could easily feed everyone who comes in the door. We believe we can always push the pump handle harder by improving the genetics of our crops, growing on more acres by using land now protected for conservation, increasing irrigation and moving to highly “efficient” farming methods that rely on nitrogen and other fertilizers, pesticides and genetically engineered crops. But without good weather, these technological fixes wither in the wind. And the challenges are far different in countries struggling to feed their own.

 

From 1798 to 1826, British economist and demographer Robert Malthus produced a series of essays on the relation between population and food supply. In essence, he said that the rate of population growth would be exponential, while food supply will increase linearly. In other words, sooner or later there will be more people than food. Of course, in 1800 he had no concept of the ability of technology to increase the supply of food, so the “Malthusian hypothesis” has not yet hit the Earth. But many think it is only a matter of time, while others feel we can still work through this with technology.

 

Few are ready to talk about the carrying capacity of Earth and whether we are exceeding it. Perhaps the time has come to realize that Earth is close to being stressed beyond its ability to support the people inhabiting it. It is not just the food we grow, but the damage we are causing to the land by over-farming, the addition of pollutants to the atmosphere bringing on rapid climate change, and the now-generation approach that we must have it all. We have not grasped the concept of sustainability.

 

There are ways to work out of this trap, but the going will be tough. Local foods must be emphasized worldwide. We must find ways for people in poor countries to again grow their own food — and make enough extra to earn a respectable income.

 

Climate change is with us, so we must learn to address it while finding ways to slow the use of the atmosphere as a common dumping ground. And rather than blaming developing nations that try to be more like us, we should turn our lifestyles around. If the United States can show ways to live sustainably, “more like us” will be a more sustainable world.

 

This lifestyle must include markedly less use of fossil fuels. The wise development of unused natural resources for fuels and materials for a sustainable lifestyle would help take us off the path of peak oil and toxic chemicals.

 

Even if all goes well, it will be a long climb back to the happy, comfortable world we knew just a few years ago.

 

For more than 200 years scientists, demographers and policymakers have been dismissing Malthus. Now we must take him seriously.

 

Dr. Dennis Keeney is a senior fellow, Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy. The Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy’s, headquartered in Minneapolis, is a policy research center committed to creating environmentally and economically sustainable rural communities and regions through sound agriculture and trade policy. www.iatp.org This commentary was distributed by MinutemanMedia.org.

 

Dr. Dennis Keeney is a senior fellow, Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy. The Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy’s, headquartered in Minneapolis, is a policy research center committed to creating environmentally and economically sustainable rural communities and regions through sound agriculture and trade policy. www.iatp.org This commentary was distributed by MinutemanMedia.org.