Christianity and Vaisnavism

[Dark Warrior]

Actually, I'd say Gnosticism is more advaita than Buddhism. Advaita minus the theory of an unreal world and Saguna Brahman worship.

 

In any case, it was men who chose what gospel is authentic and what is not. So, really, we have no idea of who Jesus was. It takes a great stretch of imagination to ignore the fact that Jesus never talked about Veda or Hari, that he may have been an advaitin, or that he may have worshipped Shiva as supreme, etc. and proclaim that he was a Vaishnava.

 

By Occam's Razor, a theory that makes minimum assumptions wins. I assume that Jesus was not a Vaishnava, because of the lack of evidence.

 

 

 

 

The way you perceive Itihaas and Puranas are your way, mine is different from you. Furthermore, it's a proof with these ideas that you have, you'll be unwilling to help any other entities with the exceptions of those who think like you.

 

When we define Vaishnavism, we think of acharyas like Sri Ramanuja, Sri Madhva and even Sri Chaitanya. I do not remember any of them telling their disciples to consider our Puranas as allegory.

 

The whole reason Vaishnavism is against Shaivism is because Hari Katha is sanctifying and can provide moksha. The sanctity of Hari Katha is because it is a historical account of the Lord's lila. If we were to consider it as allegory, Sri Ramanuja wouldn't have advised us to not read Shiva Purana and other works.

 

For us, God has 4 hands, dark blue complexion, rests on a snake bed, etc. You, of course, have the liberty to call our belief as foolish or immature. You do not, however, have the right to claim that you are a Vaishnava who does not believe in the historicity of scripture.

 

 

Don't ask me mine, I see them as the sons of God only, even the worst of their Kind.

 

You also have the liberty to consider Jesus as son of Vishnu. Just don't say that you are a Vaishnava. Just like there are people who worship Vishnu along with other devas, Hare Christnas also fall into that category. All these people are not Vaishnavas.

 

Vaishnavism does not mean 'Universal Bhakti to Unknown Personal God'. It means 'Worship of Vishnu'. Only Vishnu.

 

EDIT: Here is what Sri Velukkudi Swami has to say on the Vishnu Purana issue. You asked me to tell you when I met a real Vaishnava, remember?

 

"Bharata desam is the karma bhumi as mentioned in Sri Vishnu puranam.It is only here that all sastric deeds bear fruits in moksham. I remember to have read somewhere that once Indian Prime Minister Sri Lal Bahadur Sastri landed in China along with a few vedic scholars. The then Chinese Premier Mr. Mao Tse Tung greeted them along with chinese scholars. He had conveyed the belief in china to our Prime Minister - "To take birth in Bharat is the penultimate step to attaining salvation."

 

Now, call this foolish or stupid. In his discourse, Swami elaborated on this and said clearly that the lord, for some reason, has chosen only this strip of land to take avatars, and has not gone anywhere else. He ended the discourse by saying that only Hari knows why He chose this land.

[bija]

Yes...and some western devotees may have gnostic similarity.

 

 

It means 'Worship of Vishnu'. Only Vishnu. by dark

 

What is your definition of the word Vaisnava dark. Can you elaborate further about that word please?

 

To exhibit humility most devotees in Gaudiya Vaisnavism will say they are 'aspiring vaisnavas'.

[Dark Warrior]

Please, not that again.

 

We are not discussing bhakti here. Certainly, I wouldn't call myself as a perfect Vaishnava, just a Ramanuja Dasan. You obviously do not get my point.

 

Vaishnava is one who worships Vishnu. Not 'Divine Person', 'Random Unknown God', etc.

[bija]

I am heading somewhere with the question.

 

If a western born man followed your view of vaisnavism...would he be respected in your local community? With all due respect and vaisnava etiquette? Up until Srila Prabhupada's radical vision, many bengali's took a while to come around.

 

In my local community we are broadening our vision in this regard. We have many sudanese people moving here. They are of both muslim and christian background. It takes time though for many to feel ok with it.

 

I understand all you have said so far...and much of it is excellent. God is one still...and yes some of us may take several births to understand vedanta.

[guliaditya]

 

What is your definition of the word Vaisnava dark. Can you elaborate further about that word please?

 

One who accepts Sreeman Narayana as supreme personality & do only HIS bhakti is a vaishanava.A vaishnava doesnt have any disrespect for other devtas as they are ansh of Narayana only.There are other qualities also which is present in a vaishnava.It is described in detail in Bhagavatam.

 

Dark warrior points are very logic & in line with our scriptures & acharyas.

Jesus is not a vaishnava.Hence followers of jesus cant be vaishnava.It is very surprising that we are comparing Vaishnavas to christians.

 

Pranaam

[Dark Warrior]

 

I am heading somewhere with the question.

 

If a western born man followed your view of vaisnavism...would he be respected in your local community? With all due respect and vaisnava etiquette?

 

Dude, you still fail to get the point.

 

If there was a westerner, african, european, etc. who followed Vaishnavism as it should be, ie, worship of Vishnu, without bringing in all these 'universal hippie' nonsense, rejecting nastika religions, etc. I would prostrate before his lotus feet.

 

Recently, an Australian convert to Sri Vaishnavism came here to give a discourse on the Gita. I certainly have no problems with him.

 

I only have issues against Jesus fanboy-Pseudo-Vaishnavas.

[bija]

 

Dark warrior points are very logic & in line with our scriptures & acharyas.

Jesus is not a vaishnava.Hence followers of jesus cant be vaishnava.It is very surprising that we are comparing Vaishnavas to christians.

 

I agree totally prabhu...his words are in line. I disagree on one point...Ia m not a christian firstly (even though I was born that way). I can still go in that church, and worship Sri Krsna. The congregation may not understand but it is possible. It is internal.....it has nothing to do with the external environment.

[bija]

 

Dude, you still fail to get the point.

 

If there was a westerner, african, european, etc. who followed Vaishnavism as it should be, ie, worship of Vishnu, without bringing in all these 'universal hippie' nonsense, rejecting nastika religions, etc. I would prostrate before his lotus feet.

 

Recently, an Australian convert to Sri Vaishnavism came here to give a discourse on the Gita. I certainly have no problems with him. by dark

Very good. You are convincing me further. I wanted to know your feeling...thx.

[Dark Warrior]

That is what you don't understand.

 

A Vaishnava should never go to a Shiva temple and worship Vishnu. Because the temple has been consecrated against the injunctions of the agamas, with the notion that Shiva is supreme. Hence, it will not yield fruit.

 

Similarly, a Church is not consecrated based on Pancharatra agama, and certainly is not in line with Veda. While it is a religion for ajnanis, no Vaishnava should step into a church and worship Vishnu.

 

Bhagavan asks you to follow Veda. Churches, Mass, Trans-substantiation, etc. are nastika rituals, as they are not in line with Veda. Austerities that are performed without Vedic injunction is tamasic, no matter what the devotion is.

[bija]

 

It is very surprising that we are comparing Vaishnavas to christians. by guliaditya

 

I am not doing this. Here is my orginal post in this thread. There is actually much difference.

 

 

It is very evident that many eastern traditions see the world as essentially a place to escape. Srila Prabhupada and others have called it a 'prison'. The buddha saw it as a place of suffering. Sankaracarya saw it as false. Eastern thought is often very transcendental and other worldy...Hare Krsna is definately transcendentalism...if anyone understands the deeper aspect of jaap and bhajan.

The form of christianity I appreciate (radical catholicism) is very different than such thinking. This world is the body of christ. It is not destined to degradation (kali yuga)...but is destined for christization...the omega factor. The fullfillment...the messiah. A place to fully relish and live in gratitude.

Ofcourse some Hare Krsna's may see Krsna present in this manifestation and live similar. This is what I mean by seeing Krsna everywhere Theist. Birth in this earth is a great gift...and consciousness as a human and being able to percieve that life in all is beautiful. As a devotee of Krsna, we also have been given one other great gift...in our heart as we walk in this world...we can see Krsna and his friends dancing, hiding, and playing...behind the veil.

 

This is a very different view of the world. (and also very different from many protestant strains of christianity). This God become flesh is unique...and wonderful. A sanction to live fully. Infact in my opinion, this unique aspect (god become flesh)...is a gift from the empowered incarnation himself...a gift from god...that shows the relevance of christianity...and proof that Jesus was a shaktayavesa avatara of the Supreme.

 

In this sense there is a huge difference between some practicioners.

 

"In The Divine Milieu, Teilhard the scientist takes us many centuries further in the life of Christ. He invites us to learn to see, as he does, not only the Christ of 2,000 years ago, but also the magnificent Being that the Risen Christ with his Total Body has developed into during two millennia. He also invites us to glimpse into Christ’s future, to identify the goal toward which that Total Body of Christ has been constantly evolving.

For Teilhard, Christ today is not just Jesus of Nazareth risen from the dead, but rather a huge, continually evolving Being as big as the universe. In this colossal, almost unimaginable Being each of us lives and develops in consciousness, like living cells in a huge organism. At various times, theologians have described this great Being as the Total Christ, the Cosmic Christ, the Whole Christ, the Universal Christ or the Mystical Body of Christ.

With the help of all the human sciences as well as the scriptures, Teilhard shows how we—the cells and members of the Body of Christ—can participate in and nurture the life of the Total Christ. He also shows, thanks to the continuing discoveries of science, how we can begin to glimpse where that great Being is headed and how we can help promote its fulfillment.

Teilhard’s spirituality identifies many ways we can help accomplish the Total Christ’s divine destiny. It is Christ’s divine task as well as ours to turn this fragmented world, through love of it in all of its visible and invisible dimensions, into one immense shining Being, the Body of Christ, glowing with divine energy. Christ the Lord, the head of this Body, has promised to be with us and guide us, from start to finish. He said, “And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (Matt 28:20) At present, many of the cells of this Christ Body are unaware of their divine calling, unaware of how special they are in the eyes of God, and unconscious of the fact that they are already living their lives as part of this Cosmic Body. For Teilhard, this Cosmic Body is meant to become fully conscious of itself in every cell of its being in such a way that every cell is also conscious of the whole Body’s magnificent destiny. When this Christ Body realizes itself as the divine reality it has always been meant to be, that moment will be what Teilhard calls the Omega Point. (See Rev 1:8)"

Revelations 1.8 I am the Alpha and the Omega says the Lord God, who is, who was, and who is to come. The Almighty. by bija

[bija]

 

A Vaishnava should never go to a Shiva temple and worship Vishnu. Because the temple has been consecrated against the injunctions of the agamas, with the notion that Shiva is supreme. Hence, it will not yield fruit.

 

Similarly, a Church is not consecrated based on Pancharatra agama, and certainly is not in line with Veda. While it is a religion for ajnanis, no Vaishnava should step into a church and worship Vishnu.

 

Bhagavan asks you to follow Veda. Churches, Mass, Trans-substantiation, etc. are nastika rituals, as they are not in line with Veda. Austerities that are performed without Vedic injunction is tamasic, no matter what the devotion is. by dark

 

Well if this is true then my worship would be in the mode of ignorance. From both you prabhu's point of view.

[Dark Warrior]

Once again, you are ignoring sastric injunction and formulating your own opinion. The Lord does grant freedom, but He has organised only one path. That is Vaishnavism.

 

Bhakti without Vedic knowledge will not bear fruit. Therefore, Christians may try whatever they want, Hesychasm, Jesus Prayer, hail Mary, but no matter what the Bhakti is, it is not endorsed by Veda. Little realisation may occur, of some personal kind, but that is simply because Narayana wishes to keep them on the path of theism.

 

God became flesh, etc. is also not Vedic, as such, just like Shaivism, it is condemned. Shaivites have some lovely methods of worship, but we do not go and pray with them. Same for Christianity.

[Dark Warrior]

 

Well if this is true then my worship would be in the mode of ignorance. From both you prabhu's point of view

 

I am afraid so. Worshipping both Shiva and Vishnu equally is tamasic, so worshipping Vishnu from the lens-view of an unvedic religion is tamasic.

 

This is not said to offend anyone. I am merely pointing out the Vaishnava tenet. If you say you are not a Vaishnava then, of course, you can disown this explanation.

 

One needs to differentiate 'sectarianism' and 'truth'. Destroying false knowledge is recommended by the Lord. That is why Vedantins are fierce debators.

[bija]

 

Bhakti without Vedic knowledge will not bear fruit. by dark

I accept this...I was very fast asleep until I read Gita and met my vedic teacher and took the holy name. I awoke. It was the vedic knowledge/holy name that enlightened my heart to some degree. Grateful.

[bija]

 

That is why Vedantins are fierce debators. by dark

Now thats the truth....many of you have been raised in a profoundly deep tradition. Many in the west have no idea how profound.

 

Good night Dark...its getting late...thx for the chat...I enjoyed it very much. Hari Hari!

[Dark Warrior]

On a cordial note, just understand that I never called you tamasic or anything. I don't have the right to judge other jivas. I am merely stating that Vedic Scripture recognises such kinds of worship as tamasic.

 

It is high time people actually understood what Vaishnavism is. And stop making their own theories. Next thing you know, there will be a 'Theist Sampradaya'.

[bija]

 

On a cordial note, just understand that I never called you tamasic or anything. by dark

Ofcourse.

 

 

It is high time people actually understood what Vaishnavism is. by dark

Vaisnavism to be known more in the world would be nice. In my town people sometimes ask what my spiritual practice is...when I say vaisnavism I always receive a blank look. These days even Hare Krsna gets a 'oh yes...whatever happened to them?'.

 

Mostly I say hindu these days so at least they can get some idea. Sad really.

 

Bye.

[theist]

 

Wow. Somebody actually called on Dark Warrior?

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> 'There is no difference between a pure Christian and a sincere devotee of Krsna.' Room Conversation, Bombay, 5, April 1977.

ACB Prabhupada </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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Now maybe Prabhupada doesn't know what Vaisnavism is really.

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> "Vedas means the books of transcendental knowledge. Not only the Bhagavad Gita, even the Bible or the Quran, they are also."? (lecture 29-7-68) 4. Srila Prabhupada:No, no. Christianity is Vaisnavism.

 

Dr. Patel: Vaisnavism? Absolutely Vaisnavism.

 

Srila Prabhupada:Islam is also Vaisnavism.

 

Dr. Patel: Mohammedanism is not Vaisnavism.

 

Srila Prabhupada:No, no. Caitanya Mahaprabhu had talked with the Pathanas.

 

He proved that "Your religion is Vaisnavism."? (February 17, 1974, Bombay) 5. "Chaitanya Mahaprabhu proved devotional service from the Quran.

 

So, it requires a devotee who can explain God from any Godly literature"? ( Morning Walk, June 6, 1974, Geneva)

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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> It seems that Vaisnavism is far more universal than Dark would like to hold on to. Yes there are traditions, especially religious traditions. But Vaisnavism is not a religion and not specific to India.

 

No Prabhupada doesn't know what a Vaisnava is. Only some of these sectarian hindu characters can know what a vaisnava is. So much shallow thought dressed up as philosophical discourse.

 

Once again I am sorry I started this thread on this forum. I am also sorry to see that 95% of the present Hare Krishna devotees seem to have missed the obvious message of Srila Prabhupada and instead are holding on sectarian religious conceptions as some kind of shelter. The others are more understandable being born into that kind of thought.

[theist]

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> We may have a more explict understanding of the need to pray without motivation but how many of us are there that offer pure prayers to Krishna? by theist </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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That is so true. Often we can tend to point out discrepancy in other sects as being materially based religion. But yes, in our own private practice these anarthas still exist.

 

So then we should stop criticizing others in their attempts to approach God and concentrate on tending our own garden. As long as hold onto to the idea that a Christian humbling himself before God is inferior to myself or some member of my group humbling themselves before God we will never progress past the sectarian level of consciousness, and thus never relinguish ahankara and remain trapped in the world of names and illusory separateness.

 

Ahankara is actually stronger in religious fanatics then most any other group. Right up there with blind patriots or hard core racists.

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> '...And when asuddha-nama is chanted with desires for liberation and enjoyment, due to the influence of mayavada (impersonalism) and so on, it is called nama-aparadha...' from bhajana-rahasya vritti - sraddha BVNM </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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We are fortunate that unalloyed bhakti is explained as a main principle in our tradition Theist. I feel that principle would greatly bless the Christian churches and its congregation, if it was taught from the pulpit clearly.

[theist]

Finding Shelter From The Heavy Burden of Sin

 

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Come to Me, all you who labor

 

 

and are heavy laden,

 

and I will give you rest.

Take My yoke upon you

and learn from Me,

for I am gentle and lowly in heart,

and you will find rest for your souls.

For My yoke is easy

and My burden is light."

Matt 11:28-30

 

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There is no freedom from sinful reactions and the propensity to create more of those same sins from austerities and penance or even suffering the from the results of those sins.

 

The only shelter is to come under the care of Krishna pure devotee, associate with him and accept his instructions for living (vani) which leads to the change of heart spoken of throughout the SB. This is the nature of the light burden Christ speaks of.

 

Everyone is already heavily burdened by our own ignorance and the results of acts performed in that ignorance. The path of God consciousness carries it's own burden but in comparison to the burdens imposed by material life those burdens are light and become lighter still as we progress and allow ourselves to come under the shelter of the Godhead.

[theist]

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> In the Vishnu Purana, Sri Parasara Muni clearly says that bharatavarsha is alone the punya bhumi for this epoch. Karmas can be cleansed only here, and nowhere else. What this means is that, the Supreme Being for some reason has taken avatars ONLY in Bharatavarsha, and nowhere else. by dark </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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Here we see clearly the foolish conclusion of the matrialistic religionist. In this entire universe ( a mustard seed in the bag of universes) God only shows Himself in India. What a pitiable small minded idea. This is the nonesense we need to transcend. The Jews say they are the chosen people and the hindus say the same thing. No way to transcend birth and death from such a flawed platform.

[theist]

 

But I'm really attached to Bharatvarsh, though born in Mauritius.

 

You have only one place of origin Amlesh and that is in the transcendentsal realms.

 

We have no place of birth in the material world because we are unborn and eternal.

 

"Call no man in the world father for there is only one Father." -Christ

[theist]

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

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Jesus is not a vaishnava.Hence followers of jesus cant be vaishnava.It is very surprising that we are comparing Vaishnavas to christians. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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I agree totally prabhu...his words are in line. I disagree on one point...Ia m not a christian firstly (even though I was born that way). I can still go in that church, and worship Sri Krsna. The congregation may not understand but it is possible. It is internal.....it has nothing to do with the external environment.

 

 

Bit whacky there bija. But at least you are consistently inconsistent.

[theist]

 

Ofcourse.

 

 

Vaisnavism to be known more in the world would be nice. In my town people sometimes ask what my spiritual practice is...when I say vaisnavism I always receive a blank look. These days even Hare Krsna gets a 'oh yes...whatever happened to them?'.

 

Mostly I say hindu these days so at least they can get some idea. Sad really.

 

Bye.

 

Ever try saying devotion to the One God as an answer? Or do you consider devotion to one God as something different than vaisnavism?

[cbrahma]

 

Obviously, a Vaishnava would consider all Christians as following a wrong faith. Did you expect Sri Ramanuja to say that Shiva or Brahma can give moksha? Nope. In fact, Sri Ramanuja went so far as to say Shaivites have tamo guna.

 

And obviously, a Christian would say Vaishnavism is false.

 

So, all I am saying is, choose a faith, or remain non-committed. Don't say you are a Vaishnava who believes that Jesus will save you, or that all Vaishnavas should accept Christianity.

 

No you are not talking faith, or moksa.

You are not qualified to speak on the behalf of Christians or any other religious sect. There are Christians who do accept Vedanta and Vedic mystical path. This is not surprising since Vaisnavism is not a religion.

You are talking religion, mundane and material - nothing else.

 

“The principle that only Indians and Hindus should be brought into the Vaishnava cult is mistaken idea. There should be propaganda to bring everyone to the Vaishnava cult. The Krsna Consciousness movement is meant for that purpose. There is no bar in propagating the Krsna Consciousness movement even among people, who are born in candala, mleccha or yavana families. Even in India this point has been enunciated by Srila Sanatana Goswami in His books Hari-Bhakti-Vilasa, which is smrti and is the authorized Vedic guide for Vaishnavas" (32) HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada

 

 

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1-1.1.14

Living beings who are entangled in the complicated meshes of birth and

death can be freed immediately by even unconsciously chanting the

holy name of Krsna, which is feared by fear personified.

 

 

 

Now, I guess non-Hindus are not living beings? I guess being freed immediately can be accomplished without being a Vaisnava? Right.