Christianity and Vaisnavism

[bhaktajan]

 

 

This expresses, wonderfully, how Vaisnava-ites feel. It is a cathartic & sincere 'declaration' expressed with all the right choice of words to affirm the root of the 'type of conviction' that is imbibed in a devotee who knows the path of a Vaisnava's Vaisnava:

 

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Dark Warrior

 

 

 

 

July 3, 2008

 

 

 

 

 

Vaishnavism clearly says

 

 

 

Vaishnavism clearly says, 'ONLY devotion to Hari will lead to moksha'. Of course, Lord may give moksha sometimes to Christians or muslims for no reason at all, but that is just due to His grace. The right path is Vaishnavism.

Now, you are free to accept it or reject it. Just don't say, you are a vaishnava and claim other 'spiritual paths' are not a burden. These so-called secularists may find this indigestible, but what I say is not based on sectarianism. The very reason Vaishnavas have furiously debated with other schools is because we believe only the right knowledge liberates. Destruction of Ajnana is essential. Brahma Sutras advise inquiry, not secularism.

Do I sound dogmatic? maybe. But this is the basic tenet of Vaishnavism. The Upanishads clearly condemn the 'all paths lead to Rome' nonsense. Only knowledge of Brahman as He really is, is true knowledge.

Sure, We don't condemn christians to hell. We simply say, they, along with ajnanis, need more births. That's all.

-

Mine is not just hinged on 'faith'. I have a knowledge of the major belief systems in the world, and noticed that Vedanta is the most intellectual and freedom allowing belief system to follow. I also noticed that Vaishnavism is the clearest exposition of Vedanta.

Having accepted this system as the best, it follows logically that one should accept everything that this faith offers. Hence, it is no blind faith, but rather, rational to accept the Avatars of the Lord as historical.

That is not what I meant by 'Avatara Rahasya'. It refers to the inner meanings of the Lord's pastimes.

For instance, few know the real purpose of Trivikrama's avatara. It was not to scale the world and defeat Mahabali. The Lord measured the Earth for the sole purpose of ensuring that each and every jivatma gets contact with His divine feet in the process. He blessed every single Jiva that day with His feet. This is the reason why He rose as Trivikrama and conquered the material vibhuti. Defeating <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:place w:st=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Bali</st1:place> was just an excuse, a lila.

We would definitely have been present even at that time in some form or other, as a microbe, plant or animal. Certainly, we received the touch of Trivikrama's lotus feet then.

This is Avatara Rahasya.

And you wonder why people like cBrahma are saying that they feel as though their spiritual process is lacking (the thread on 'chanting')? Its because they have not let go of their attachments yet. And with this, I end further participation in this thread.

[cbrahma]

 

Its because they have not let go of their attachments yet. And with this, I end further participation in this thread

I said I felt sweetness in chanting. Of course if I were free of all material attachments I would be a pure devotee. DW has an attachment to Vedic rites and rituals to all the varieties of dharma that Krsna tells us to abandon. This platitude that one has to 'let go of' Jesus, a bona fide guru, to make progess in Vaisnavism is sectarian wishful thinking , a kind of religionist philosophical masturbation fantasy.

[theist]

"A Rose by any other name would smell just as sweet." One has to be a total imbecile not to understand the meaning of this famous quote. It seems there are several on this board and it's a shame.

[bija]

 

Bit whacky there bija. But at least you are consistently inconsistent. by theist

 

lol...whacky...yep...especially late at night:rolleyes:

[Amlesh]

 

You have only one place of origin Amlesh and that is in the transcendentsal realms.

 

We have no place of birth in the material world because we are unborn and eternal.

 

"Call no man in the world father for there is only one Father." -Christ

 

Yes, you are right.

 

The reason behind my attachment is Hari only.

 

"For you to become my disciple you'll need to hate your [material] father " - Christ.

[Amlesh]

 

Yes he did Amlesh...he said there are many things I cannot yet tell them.

 

He was self-realized. Where he is now...I do not know.

 

He might be with the Lord or explaining the others about the Father.

 

Or since he is the Son of God, He is waiting for you to become his brother.

 

It's a statement that will activate Dark with his missiles, where is my shield;).

[theist]

 

He might be with the Lord or explaining the others about the Father.

 

Or since he is the Son of God, He is waiting for you to become his brother.

 

It's a statement that will activate Dark with his missiles, where is my shield;).

 

LOL Don't worry his missles are made of cardboard. They look big but they have no substance.

[bija]

 

Or since he is the Son of God, He is waiting for you to become his brother. by amlesh

:pray:Wonderful...actually I hope to be a friend of christ. To sit and eat, and laugh. As with you all oneday.

 

 

LOL Don't worry his missles are made of cardboard. They look big but they have no substance. theist

Rubber bullets...with the shield of faith they bounce off. Unless I choose to allow them in.

 

Or maybe inflatable tanks that look like a huge defence from the air. There is very little difference between us...maybe only the ocean.

[Dark Warrior]

 

In this entire universe ( a mustard seed in the bag of universes) God only shows Himself in India. What a pitiable small minded idea. This is the nonesense we need to transcend. The Jews say they are the chosen people and the hindus say the same thing. No way to transcend birth and death from such a flawed platform.

 

Theist, plainly put, you are a prize idiot. So, Vyasa is small minded?

 

Nobody is 'chosen'. But the Lord, for some reason, chose a strip of Land that turned out to be mordern day India. Why did He do it? Can you really question Him? After all, this is the Brahman who creates this gigantic universe and yet becomes delighted when someone offers Him a flower!!

 

It is indeed strange that the Lord picked Bharatavarsha. But then, Ithihasa means 'That which happened TRULY'. Meaning, Valmiki saw Rama building a bridge from India to Sri Lanka, and wrote it down. Vyasa saw Lord Krishna in Mathura, and wrote it down. And so on.

 

You either accept this and be a Vaishnava, or reject it as myth and say you are not a Vaishnava. Simple.

 

Now, I have substantiated everything with pramanas. 1) I showed why Christianity is a nastika religion for Vaishnavas, 2) I showed why one cannot violate Pancharatra and go to a church and worship Vishnu, 3) I have provided pramana from Vishnu Purana, along with a quote from an eminent Vaishnava about Bharatavarsha's sanctity.

 

I have also demonstrated that no Vaishnava, loyal to his tradition, considers the avatars of the Lord a myth. Which means, a prerequisite to being a Vaishnava is to accept that the Lord historically descended in India.

 

However, I have remained absolutely fair. I have only said Vaishnavas do not to Christianity. I wouldn't go to a Christian and say Jesus was useless. Only Hare Christnas.

 

Irrefutable points. All Theist and cBrahma have done so far is chant 'sectarian' x times. Hey, looks to me like they have been chanting that word more times than they do Krishna's name.

 

Bottom Line - Our sastras say Hari came to Mathura, not anywhere else. Last time I looked, Mathura was in India.

 

Now, you are free to reject it as myth. Are you saying that you do not accept what Parasara Muni says in Vishnu Purana? If so, you are not a Vaishnava.

 

The thread is not discussing about Vaishnavism's authenticity. Its discussing about what is Vaishnavism. Puranas are accepted even by mordern Vaishnava scholars. And it says Bharatavarsha is Punya Bhumi. I have given pramana from an authentic text. Its up to you to accept or reject.

 

 

You are not qualified to speak on the behalf of Christians or any other religious sect. There are Christians who do accept Vedanta and Vedic mystical path. This is not surprising since Vaisnavism is not a religion

 

Quite right. If you are a true christian, I wouldn't interfere with your beliefs. Stop trying to bring Christianity into Vaishnavism.

 

 

This platitude that one has to 'let go of' Jesus, a bona fide guru, to make progess in Vaisnavism is sectarian wishful thinking , a kind of religionist philosophical masturbation fantasy.

 

I am afraid you are in a minority there, dude. I'd like to know how long your Jesus-is-a-Vaishnava cult has stayed alive. About 40 years old?

 

You are supposed to let go of Shiva, Durga, Kali, Brahma, etc. What to speak of Jesus, Popeye, Mickey Mouse and the Sandman?

 

Theist has no idea of what Vaishnavism is, nor do his buddies. All they can do is prattle on about achieving the 'transcendental bliss of Krsna Consciousness in the realm of the Supreme Personality of Godhead with Jesus as the pure devotee of Father Krsna'. Sorry, this isn't Vaishnavism.

[Amlesh]

 

LOL Don't worry his missles are made of cardboard. They look big but they have no substance.

The other day you spoke about roses smell sweet.

 

But Dark is also like a Flower but a CauliFlower, he is odorless, he has only 1 angle of vision.

[Dark Warrior]

How sad. You still haven't gotten the point.

 

Some people believe that the same god is responsible for all religions, and that all religions are therefore legitimate. Unfortunately, Vedanta does not allow this. It is a lovely thought, but the Vedas are against it.

 

So, if you believe all paths lead to the same goal, you are not a Vaishnava. That is Neovedantic thinking.

 

If all paths were same, one would wonder why Vedantins debated with just about everybody. And if you can worship any sort of structure (such as a church) as a temple, then why would Lord Narayana go to the trouble of preaching the Pancharatra for 5 nights running, elaborating exactly how He is to be worshipped?

 

Again, you are not under compulsion to accept all this. Just do not call yourself a Vaishnava.

 

Coming to Theist's ridiculous views, he holds that God cannot just come to India because it becomes partial. However, the fact is, nobody knows the mind of Brahman. We cannot dictate to Him as to how He must behave. Sastras clearly and coherently say that the avatars of Vishnu, right down to Buddha, came in India.

 

Theist also would say, 'how did Ravana have 10 heads'? So, it must be a myth. OK, if you are not a Vaishnava, I won't argue. However, Ramayana is a sacred text for Vaishnavas. It is a historical account of Lord Rama coming to Earth, particularly Bharatavarsha. So, a true Vaishnava accepts Valmiki's account regardless.

 

This isn't patriotism on my part. If scripture talked about Jerusalem, I would probably glorify it.

 

So, two options lie ahead - Accept the Lord as coming down to Bharatavarsha and be a Vaishnava. Reject the Ithihasas as myth, and say you are not a Vaishnava.

[bija]

 

a Flower but a CauliFlower amlesh

 

aaww...cauliflower is the king of vegetables:rolleyes:!

[Amlesh]

 

aaww...cauliflower is the king of vegetables:rolleyes:!

 

So he is.

[Dark Warrior]

Funny, two vegetables calling me one. So far, no sane person has ever been able to make sense of your posts.

 

Jesus is a Vaishnava, I am a Vaishnava, but Krishna is a myth, but Krishna's form is real, but Church is a worship ground for Vishnu, Puranas are allegorial myths but I accept them, Vyasa is small-minded but a great rishi, personal experience is more important than Veda....

 

Thanks for the laughs. This is a great thread.

[Amlesh]

 

Funny, two vegetables calling me one. So far, no sane person has ever been able to make sense of your posts.

 

 

It's me to be blamed.

 

 

Jesus is a Vaishnava, I am a Vaishnava, but Krishna is a myth, but Krishna's form is real, but Church is a worship ground for Vishnu, Puranas are allegorial myths but I accept them, Vyasa is small-minded but a great rishi, personal experience is more important than Veda....

 

Krishna is the basis of Vaisnavism, so how can he be a myth.

 

And it's not that what we want to convey.

 

 

Thanks for the laughs. This is a great thread.

 

[Dark Warrior]

 

It's me to be blamed.

 

Hmm...Allright!!

 

 

 

Krishna is the basis of Vaisnavism, so how can he be a myth.

 

And it's not that what we want to convey.

 

OK. Then you say He is not a myth.

 

Which means, Krishna came in Mathura, Rama came in Ayodhya, the Vedas, Ithihasas and Puranas were written in Bharatavarsha (Well..Vedas are apaurusheya, though). Vyasa and Valmiki will be considered as divine sages by you.

 

Which means, 1) you will have to accept the quote that only Bharatavarsha is punya bhumi, 2) All avatars have only come in India, 3) Sages say that Hari never violates Sastra, so it also confirms that He has only taken avatars here, and not in Germany, Switzerland or Jerusalem.

 

Reason why He did this? Heck, He's Brahman. The world is His, who are we to question Him!!

 

 

For such threads, it's you who we should thank, you only can make it great.

 

Amlesh, my intention is not to hurt your feelings. I am simply trying to make people understand what Vaisnavism is. For instance, Theist's average beliefs go like this,

 

- Vedas are difficult to understand, so we discard them.

 

- Puranas and Ithihasas are myths and allegories, not real. Despite Vyasa calling it history.

 

- Krishna is real, but His pastimes are simply not historical.

 

- Jesus really came, really did miracles, really got crucified and he was a devotee of Krishna, maybe even a purna avatar. Although there is no sastric basis for this.

 

- Anybody who disagrees (100% of all knowledgeable Vaishnavas) is sectarian.

 

I have nothing against your beliefs. No matter how ridiculous a belief, an individual has his rights. I only don't want you to call your belief as the definition of Vaishnavism, because it is not.

[Amlesh]

 

Hmm...Allright!!

 

 

 

 

OK. Then you say He is not a myth.

 

Which means, Krishna came in Mathura, Rama came in Ayodhya, the Vedas, Ithihasas and Puranas were written in Bharatavarsha (Well..Vedas are apaurusheya, though). Vyasa and Valmiki will be considered as divine sages by you.

 

Which means, 1) you will have to accept the quote that only Bharatavarsha is punya bhumi, 2) All avatars have only come in India, 3) Sages say that Hari never violates Sastra, so it also confirms that He has only taken avatars here, and not in Germany, Switzerland or Jerusalem.

 

Reason why He did this? Heck, He's Brahman. The world is His, who are we to question Him!!

 

 

 

Amlesh, my intention is not to hurt your feelings. I am simply trying to make people understand what Vaisnavism is. For instance, Theist's average beliefs go like this,

 

- Vedas are difficult to understand, so we discard them.

 

- Puranas and Ithihasas are myths and allegories, not real. Despite Vyasa calling it history.

 

- Krishna is real, but His pastimes are simply not historical.

 

- Jesus really came, really did miracles, really got crucified and he was a devotee of Krishna, maybe even a purna avatar. Although there is no sastric basis for this.

 

- Anybody who disagrees (100% of all knowledgeable Vaishnavas) is sectarian.

 

I have nothing against your beliefs. No matter how ridiculous a belief, an individual has his rights. I only don't want you to call your belief as the definition of Vaishnavism, because it is not.

 

No use of arguing with you.

 

But that does not mean I said yes to your thoughts.

 

Anyways, I'm happy that you are a devotee of Vishnu [The only thing I can agree with you is that he is the Supreme.]

[Dark Warrior]

 

No use of arguing with you.

 

But that does not mean I said yes to your thoughts.

 

That is the problem. I have presented my case very coherently, with ample support from Scripture. Unfortunately, you, and the rest of the Hare Christnas have not done the same.

 

Scriptures advise intolerance to wrong knowledge. That is very much a fact. Upanishads say that the path to right knowledge is walking on a razor's edge. Hence, you need to confirm what you believe with scriptural quotes.

 

Instead, you, theist, and the rest adopt a 'holier-than-thou' man of the world type of attitude, which really doesn't do much for you. Or, you simply quote Srila Prabhupada's words, which aren't pramana.

 

 

 

Anyways, I'm happy that you are a devotee of Vishnu [The only thing I can agree with you is that he is the Supreme.]

 

Depends on how you view Him.

[guliaditya]

 

No use of arguing with you.

 

But that does not mean I said yes to your thoughts.

 

Anyways, I'm happy that you are a devotee of Vishnu [The only thing I can agree with you is that he is the Supreme.]

 

 

There is only one path i.e. Bhakti marg

There is only one GOD i.e. Sreeman Narayana.

Surrendering to Sreeman Narayana with full faith & bhakti is the only way to moksha/eternal bliss.(Vasudeva Paro dharmah)

Apart from it there is not other path.

If you accept this then nothing is left for argument.

 

Pranaam.

[Dark Warrior]

I agree Guliaditya. The Bhakti Marg you mentioned is Vaishnavism. Nothing more.

 

It seems like many people think its ridiculous that the Lord restricted His pastimes to India. But then, that's what scripture says. If you do not like it, just reject the whole scripture. I notice each and everyone of them has dodged the Vishnu Purana sloka. No explanation at all.

 

One cannot claim to know everything about the Lord. Perhaps, if Krishna had come to only Jerusalem and given the Gita there, today Vaishnavas would be saying only Jerusalem is holy. Just because the Lord is neutral does not mean He is bound. He is a bit eccentric, and as such, He does some things we cannot understand. Giving birth to all Vedantic thought in India is something He has done, which we cannot question.

 

This does not mean only Indians get moksha. It means, that the pastimes of the Lord have been enacted here for all to follow. Occasionally, people with no jnana or bhakti may get moksha due to the Lord's grace. Sriman Narayana chooses lands to perform His lilas quite randomly, just like a bride tossing a bouquet in the air.

 

I am not averse to other traditions. Prove to me that there is another tradition in a foriegn land that follows Vedas sincerely, and I will accept it. But this is madness, making inane connections between an Abrahamic religion and Vedanta.

 

Shaivites and BhedaBhedins tried to murder Sri Ramanuja when He stated that only Vishnu is supreme. Was Sri Ramanuja 'sectarian' in condemning other faiths and calling them ajnanis? Nope. He was telling it like it is.

[Amlesh]

Back to square one.

[cbrahma]

 

ye yathā māḿ prapadyante

tāḿs tathaiva bhajāmy aham

mama vartmānuvartante

manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ

SYNONYMS

ye — all who; yathā — as; mām — unto Me; prapadyante — surrender; tān — them; tathā — so; eva — certainly; bhajāmi — reward; aham — I; mama — My; vartma — path; anuvartante — follow; manuṣyāḥ — all men; pārtha — O son of Pṛthā; sarvaśaḥ — in all respects.

TRANSLATION

As all surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly. Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of Pṛthā.

 

[Dark Warrior]

Taking things out of context, again, cBrahma?

 

Yes. Even Shaivites who mistakenly worship Shiva as supreme are in reality surrendering to Krishna. Because, He is the only one who takes care of everyone.

 

However, such surrender is without jnana, and hence, will not fetch moksha. Krishna clearly says Men of less intelligence worship demigods.

 

He rewards them in whatever way they approach Him. Vaishnavas who approach Him directly have the chance to ge moksha. Shaivites and Nastikas will get better births, but not moksha.

 

Same goes for Nastika religions. Even if a devotee sincerely prays to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, his prayer reaches Vishnu. Doesn't mean the religion of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is authentic.

 

cBrahma knows no Veda, nothing at all...just ajnana, and a blind dependence on Srila Prabhupada's translations.

 

 

 

Back to square one.

 

Got anything useful to say?Or are you simply going to prattle on about Universal Religion and the Transcedental Pastimes of the Krsna, Father of Jesus and the Supreme Personality of Godhead?

 

Gotta admit, I love making fun of Theist's style.

[cbrahma]

 

Theist, plainly put, you are a prize idiot. So, Vyasa is small minded?

 

 

 

Anybody can see the pseudo-reasoning here, called begging the question. The hidden presumption that Vyasa actually claimed that Vaisnavism is only for Indians.

Of course there is no sastric support for that. A vedic axiom is that we are not the body. Why would God limit himself to a race of men? Is he tricked by his own Maya?

 

 

As Srila Prabhupada pointed out, the Indian culture is a shadow of it’s former glory, and not much evidence of it remains:

 

Devotee: Yes. Only thing, at least here [india] there is Indian culture

 

Prabhupada: What Indian culture? They are killing cows. What is Indian culture? Their Indian culture is that some of them speak Hindi, that’s all. This is their Indian culture.”

 

 

 

 

So therefore the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, what He is speaking, mam ekam saranam vraja, that is dharma. All other things are cheating. And when Krsna says, mam ekam saranam vraja, He does not say it to any particular community or any country or any nation. He speaks to everyone.

 

 

sarva-yonisu kaunteya

sambhavanti murtayo yah

tasam mahad yonir brahma

aham bija-pradah pita

 

He says, "I am the seed-giving father of all forms of life." Krsna does not say that "I am speaking to Indian or the Hindus." No. Krsna is speaking to everyone, to His every son. It doesn't matter whether he is white or black or blue or... It doesn't matter. These are skin disease. Krsna says that we don't take this body as yourself. Asmin dehe. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam... This transformation of the body, that is natural. But within the body, the part and parcel of Krsna is there. That you have to understand, that is the beginning of Bhagavad-gita. We have to understand what is there within the body. That is the beginning of spiritual education. Unfortunately, the whole world is going on under the impression that "I am this body.I am Indian,I am European..." That is condemned in the sastra.

 

 

yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke

sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma ijya-dhih

yat-tirtha-buddhih salile na karhicij

janesu abhijnesu sa eva go-kharah

 

Go, go means cow, and kharah means ass. So yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke. This bag of three dhatus—kapha, pitta, vayu—if one takes it that "I am this body,I am Indian,I am American," so sastra says, "He is not even human being." Sa eva go-kharah. This Krsna consciousness movement is very, very important from this angle of vision, that everyone is thinking this body as he is. Nobody understands that he is within this body. Just like we are within this dress. I am not this dress. This is the primary education of spiritual life. Unfortunately, it is very much lacking. And now you can see practically that these European and American boys, they are all young men, but they have forgotten the bodily relationship. We have got in our institution Africans, Canadians, Australians, Europeans, Indians, but they do not consider with reference to this bodily concept of life. They live as eternal servant of Krsna. That is the instruction given by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, jivera svarupa haya nitya krsna dasa

 

Idiocy is to practice dharma on the bodily platform - the practice the Vedic principles as though they only benefited those of a particular race of men, in a particular kind of body.

Since Vedas is spiritual knowledge, it is not only idiocy, it is a contradiction in terms.

[cbrahma]

 

Taking things out of context, again, cBrahma?

 

Yes. Even Shaivites who mistakenly worship Shiva as supreme are in reality surrendering to Krishna. Because, He is the only one who takes care of everyone.

 

However, such surrender is without jnana, and hence, will not fetch moksha. Krishna clearly says Men of less intelligence worship demigods.

 

He rewards them in whatever way they approach Him. Vaishnavas who approach Him directly have the chance to ge moksha. Shaivites and Nastikas will get better births, but not moksha.

 

Same goes for Nastika religions. Even if a devotee sincerely prays to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, his prayer reaches Vishnu. Doesn't mean the religion of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is authentic.

 

cBrahma knows no Veda, nothing at all...just ajnana, and a blind dependence on Srila Prabhupada's translations.

 

 

 

 

Got anything useful to say?Or are you simply going to prattle on about Universal Religion and the Transcedental Pastimes of the Krsna, Father of Jesus and the Supreme Personality of Godhead?

 

Gotta admit, I love making fun of Theist's style.

How is Bhagavad Gita out of context? I am very careful to keep things in context, logical - there is no 'again;.