Abolishment Of Monasticism/Monkhood

[suchandra]

During the epoche of Humanism beginning in Florence in the last decades of the 14th century all over Europe thousands of monastaries were build with that understanding, that a certain percentage of human beings have another aim in life than to become established in a material society or spoken more clearly, terribly fall through the cracks to become established in a materialistic society.

When the great religions were more and more undercut by economically oriented leaders Humanism gradually disappeared - Humanism being replaced by industrialization.

 

 

Today we find all these thousands of monastaries closed and used as baroque museum with entrance fee.

Thousands of monastaries each once inhabited with up to ten thousand monks who worked in agriculture, forestry and social projects.

Present religions are preventing, oppressing and disabling people to become monks or nuns, telling they must have a theological exam in order to become a cleric. Hence the situation is that monkhood is totally abolished in modern society.

But did the percentage of people in human society who have the qualification to become nuns and monks and who fall through the cracks to become established in a materialistic society, did this percentage changed?

Actually not. Instead we find these people nowadays pushed by the establishment to become derelict, welfare case, down-and-out, nonworker, unemployed, bummer, dipshits, dosser.

And to make us all feel good about this development/achievement, our leaders call it, modern advancement of human civilization.

Looks like in US this monasticism culture never occured was always suppressed/prevented and instead spiritually inclined people were always fooled into antisocial lifestyle.

 

Are present Vaishnava institutions following the same pattern of gradually abolishing monasticism?

For some it is clear that the Vaishnava institutions are being turned into cultural centers bereft of inhabitants who follow strict Vaishnava sadhana.

Spiritually advanced individuals being pushed out.

[bija]

 

Actually not. Instead we find these people nowadays pushed by the establishment to become derelict, welfare case, down-and-out, nonworker, unemployed, bummer, dipshits, dosser. by suchandra

Wow Suchandra...some may miss the importance of this thread. It is so so important! A functional society must allow room for 'the spiritual inherent in humanity'...otherwise society has failed to teach nothing more than consumeristic values. God help us if we only knew how many thoughtful young men and woman lost their way...because of the pain of mechanistic society.

 

The spirtual needs an avenue of expression. I was hopeful for such with our movement. But its focus seemed to change...as has happened through the course of history with other free movements.

 

Often people feel a depression, or lack of purpose...and that can be due to not knowing what we are here for.

 

I have also seen several young men in Iskcon dedicate hours on the street selling books. And after a year or two as they mature (living in the ashrama) they begin to question their naieve dream. Some leave...and the so called movement of god(institution) does not even have the depth to counsel them spiritually through this crisis...at such a crucial stage of development. But instead these poor souls can only say...'I have fallen'. Its far far from a movement of mercy when these things happen! And its never talked about! I have seen one man this year in this dilemna...with nothing...his youth used and abused...its very sad. A dynamic book-seller.

 

Maybe we need to re-define an avenue of expression...for the advanced young souls.

[suchandra]

 

Wow Suchandra...some may miss the importance of this thread. It is so so important! A functional society must allow room for 'the spiritual inherent in humanity'...otherwise society has failed to teach nothing more than consumeristic values. God help us if we only knew how many thoughtful young men and woman lost their way...because of the pain of mechanistic society.

 

The spirtual needs an avenue of expression. I was hopeful for such with our movement. But its focus seemed to change...as has happened through the course of history with other free movements.

 

Often people feel a depression, or lack of purpose...and that can be due to not knowing what we are here for.

 

I have also seen several young men in Iskcon dedicate hours on the street selling books. And after a year or two as they mature (living in the ashrama) they begin to question their naieve dream. Some leave...and the so called movement of god(institution) does not even have the depth to counsel them spiritually through this crisis...at such a crucial stage of development. But instead these poor souls can only say...'I have fallen'. Its far far from a movement of mercy when these things happen! And its never talked about! I have seen one man this year in this dilemna...with nothing...his youth used and abused...its very sad. A dynamic book-seller.

 

Maybe we need to re-define an avenue of expression...for the advanced young souls.

Thanks Bija, yes the general mood - to abolish and bring down anything what teaches spiritual tapasya. And this is what happens in large scale, more and more folks take birth who are on their way to lower species.

 

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the nonsense education, result is like that. Is that education? I first, when I saw in Honolulu University—all hippies, all the students, half naked and niggardly dressed. Why so many? They are all students. You see? It has become a fashion. This is the education. And one commissioner has… You have not seen our Harmonist prepared. Collapse.

 

Satsvarūpa: I saw it yesterday. The president of Temple University, he said this was good, this running naked.

 

Prabhupāda: And another has that “education has collapsed.”

 

Dhanañjaya: They have lost all sense of moral values.

 

Prabhupāda: Animals. The whole material civilization is based on animalism. Therefore now they are coming as naked animals. The basic principle of the civilization is animalism. Now… It was covered by the progress of time. Now they are coming to be naked animals, that’s all.

 

Yogeśvara: So this is another problem for Bhagavān’s book.

 

Prabhupāda: No, no. That… You have created this animal civilization. Now they are coming out as naked animals. This is the result. Now you have to reform them. That reformation is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you have to make an example, what is actually human life. Then others will see. You cannot stop them. But some of them, those who are intelligent, they will see, “Yes, here is life.” As they are coming to nakedness, they will come to this, our mode of life. So you have to become an ideal society. You live locally, and be self-sufficient. They will see that it is possible to live locally without movement, and still highly cultured men, self-sufficient. That is required.

 

Morning Walk Conversation

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

May 28, 1974, Rome

 

The devil's cabana boys have created a human society fully activated so that more and more contingents of lusty fellows can take birth, "You have created this animal civilization. Now they are coming out as naked animals."

 

 

Prabhupāda: Birds, beast, you will find the pigeons, the dogs, they are enjoying sex at least four times in a hour. There are men also like that. So here in this material world the sex life is the top pleasure. Yan maithunādi- gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham. It is very abominable. Just imagine what kind of happiness it is, but we are forced to act like that. So tuccham, very insignificant. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ hi tuccham [sB 7.9.45]. What kind of pleasure? Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. It is just like itching between the two hands. And tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu dūḥkha-bhājaḥ. The aftereffects of sex life is very, very bad.

 

Prabhupāda: That means Freud is a most imperfect person. He is taking sex as very important thing, which the dog enjoys. As a dog’s life and a hog’s life, the hog has got very good facility. The monkey has got very good facility for sex life, and he is thinking this is ultimate goal, and then sleep. So that is going on. So if sex life is so big thing, the hogs, they have got good facility. The pigeons, they have got very good facility. I think every hour they have four times sex life, these pigeons. So if that is, then you become a pigeon. You pray to God that “Make me a pigeon, make me a hog.” Why you are becoming philosopher? Now our philosophy is different—not to become a pig. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [bhāg. 5.5.1]. The life simply for sense gratification, and for that purpose working so hard, but that is the business of the pig. That is not the business of the human being. Human being is tapasya. Tapasya means stop sex life. That is tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa [sB 6.1.13]. So our philosophy is different from his philosophy. And actually we are suffering. The pig has got good facilities for sex. Does it mean that is ideal life, eating stool and having sex without discrimination? They have no discrimination, whether mother or sister or daughter. That is hog life. So if sex life is final pleasure, then hog is in the greatest pleasure. He has no social obligation. He has no discrimination. But our philosophy says “Don’t become a hog, become a sane man.” There, there, there is a difference between his philosophy and our philosophy.

 

Philosophy Discussions

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Sigmund Freud

 

People usually don't even know anymore that a cloister consists of four corridors, with a courtyard, water basin or garth in the middle. It is intended to be both covered from the rain, but open to the air and people could perfectly chant their rounds during the early morning hours by walking in clockwise direction.

But this is our present situation, people who applaud when temples are getting empty and cloisters destroyed.

[cbrahma]

Suchandra is embracing religion full tilt. Truth be known, the Western monastaries were hotbeds of illicit sex and shelters for the misfits of society.

I have yet to see rule-following sadhana produce spiritually advanced results - it has in my experience of those who claim 'strict' sadhana produced a haughty complacency and contempt for those who are 'in the world'.

Jesus exhorts us to be 'in the world' but not 'of the world'. He didnt' go off by himself - he went out and preached to all peoples.

[suchandra]

 

Suchandra is embracing religion full tilt. Truth be known, the Western monastaries were hotbeds of illicit sex and shelters for the misfits of society.

I have yet to see rule-following sadhana produce spiritually advanced results - it has in my experience of those who claim 'strict' sadhana produced a haughty complacency and contempt for those who are 'in the world'.

Jesus exhorts us to be 'in the world' but not 'of the world'. He didnt' go off by himself - he went out and preached to all peoples.

Thanks Cbrahma for agreeing that there were monasteries in the West. Indeed that went on for a couple hundred years and yes, like highlighted by famous Hollywood movies, things didn't went always right. Hollywood movies are pretty famous and when they say things went terribly wrong, it must be correct.

Still, the chanting of the Holy Name on beads was going on and may be some knowledge was missing.

 

For all practical purposes if we systematically preach to chant the holy name of Godhead, I think no body even the religious fanatic will take objection to it. Every human being has a conception of the supreme truth. That conception is presented in some concrete shape. If therefore the Mussulman or the Christian denies to chant the name of Rama or Krishna we may ask him to chant the name of Allah or God respectively and I think therefore there will be no objection even by the Buddhists if we simply ask them to chant the name of Lord of Buddha in the systematic way.

The systematic way means to avoid the ten different offences in the process of chanting, which are all philosophical truths.

If by such propaganda of chanting the holy name, the filthy atmosphere of jealousy, bickerings, selfishness, falsehood and so many other affairs of the modern age--can be avoided, and if by such chanting the complete process of self-realisation can be achieved--is it not our duty to do this service by combined force.

Full letter:

1957: May 7

Kanpur

Sri Padampat Singhania,

Kamla Tower,

Kanpur

My dear Sri Padampat Ji,

In continuation of my yesterday's letter, which I hope you have duly received by this time, and with reference to your request of submitting the way of powerful Mantra for broadcasting all over the world, I beg to inform you further that in every Mantra the prefix of Namah is generally added.

Just for example you said the other day Namah Sivaya. Now this Mantra is practically indicating the holy name of Lord Siva. Na means negation and Ma means false ego or Ahamkara. Therefore Namah means surrendering to the name Siva. In other words to accept the supremacy of Lord Siva means Namah Sivaya.

Therefore the conclusion is that in Mantra the name of the deity is unavoidably amalgamated. And in the Mantra the spiritual power, by the Rsis like Narada etc. is surcharged like the copper is electrified by magnetic force. The etymological alphabets are so surcharged with spiritual potency and as such all Mantra indicating the transcendental holy name of God or Godhead is to be understood in that way.

When we chant the Mantra as were presented by the authorities--the process helps communication with the personality of Godhead by the sound waves as we have now experienced in the material world of physical waves vibrations. The powerful Mantras have such potency if they are sounded in the right direction. And by chanting the Mantras only one can spiritualise the whole existence as heat can expand on the spherical objects.

Mantra Siddhi means complete liberation. Therefore, there is no difference between the holy name and Mantra. Man means mind and tra deliverance. That which delivers one from mental speculation is called "Mantra". "Mantra Siddhi" is to transcend the gross and subtle mental plane. The same meaning is for ___

In this age all the Mantras that can help us reaching perfection up to the plane of Godhead--has been still more concentrated into the Harinama. We find therefore in the Brhannaradiya Puranam (38.126) a particular stress on Harinama which is stated as follows:

harinama harinama harinama eva kevalam

kalau nastyeva nastyeva nastyeva gatir anyatha

The above statement is very important in the following manner. There are two different processes for acquiring knowledge. The one is Deductive Process and the other is Inductive Process. In the Deductive Process we deduce the conclusion from the statement of higher authorities whereas by the Inductive Process we make a research in the truth by our own imperfect knowledge and induce a conclusion.

Say for example if we want to know how man is mortal then we have to make a research in statistics of daily death occurrences. Rama dies, Syama dies, father dies, mother dies, he dies, she dies, etc. all these experiences may help us in the conclusion that after all man dies and therefore the conclusion man is mortal made. But the defect of this process of knowledge is that it may be that we have not seen a person who is still living even after some thousands of years.

As soon as we get this information the whole conclusion that a man is mortal--is at once changed and we have to say that some men are mortal. In this way the research work of scientific thought are constantly changing because the very research work is done by person who is himself a condition by the four principles of mistake, illusion, cheating and imperfection.

Therefore, the Deductive Process is more effective. Man is mortal we have heard it from very authoritative sources like the Vedas and we have accepted it. The Vedas say that stool is impure but the stool of the cow is pure. The Vedas say that bone is untouchable but the conchshell which is also a bone is perfectly pure.

For the common man the statements of the Vedas appear to be contradictory. But in spite of such contradiction, because we Hindus accept the Vedas as authority we accept cow dung as pure and allow it to be used even in the kitchen. So also we accept the conchshell. The conchshell is after all a bone of an animal but because it is accepted by the Vedas we allow conchshell to be used in the sanctified room of our family deity. If we examine in the physical laboratory or analyse it by chemical test we won't find any difference between the stool of a man and that of a cow or the bone of an ox and that of a conch.

And yet the whole Hindu Muslim conflict, the whole struggle of Gandhi and Jinnah and the whole question of Kashmir problem in the UNSCO have arisen from this petty difference of bones only. In the Hindu temple the bone conchshell is already there but as soon as a Muhammadan throws a piece of bone of the ox in the temple--the whole trouble began, resulting in the partition of India and Pakistan.

So an impartial mundane student who will enter into the research work of such bone affairs in the annals of Indian History--surely he will come to the conclusion of unrestricted obedience to the words of the Vedas or that of the Koran or that of the Bible that lead to all sorts of Jehad and crusade. As a matter of fact the so called intelligent persons of the modern age have taken the shelter of secularism on the strength of past unfortunate religious feuds. This is another type of nonsense.

Therefore in the present age respect for Deductive Process is dwindling whereas respect for Inductive Process is increasing although we know so far the Inductive research is concerned the process has not been successful. The conclusion is that we have lost our faith in the traditional Vedic knowledge handed down from the Guru to Chela or from the father to the son, although such system of Deductive Knowledge from the authority is the most perfect form of knowledge.

The ultimate truth which is far beyond the reach of our imperfect senses can never be known by such inductive research work. The imperfect senses could not even measure the distance of the physical product The Sun or the Innumerable stars in front of us--and what such imperfect senses can make a research in the Mantras which are purely spiritual affairs.

We have to accept the Mantra and its potency from the Vedic source and follow the practice and principles only to arrive at reality of truth. Research work by imperfect senses is practically a revolt against the established truth. Let us therefore accept the Vedic injunction of Brihannaradiya Puranam

I have already mentioned about this Mantra in my previous letter and I beg to confirm it further that the Name "Krishna" even up to the foreign words like God and Allah, if they at all aim at the Supreme Personality--then the Name is as much holy and potential as perfect is the Supreme Lord--because in the Absolute Realm or Spritual Nature everything is identical with everything as all of them are qualitatively spiritual and therefore pure, eternal, liberated and perfect.

For all practical purposes if we systematically preach to chant the holy name of Godhead, I think no body even the religious fanatic will take objection to it. Every human being has a conception of the supreme truth. That conception is presented in some concrete shape. If therefore the Mussulman or the Christian denies to chant the name of Rama or Krishna we may ask him to chant the name of Allah or God respectively and I think therefore there will be no objection even by the Buddhists if we simply ask them to chant the name of Lord of Buddha in the systematic way.

The systematic way means to avoid the ten different offences in the process of chanting, which are all philosophical truths.

If by such propaganda of chanting the holy name, the filthy atmosphere of jealousy, bickerings, selfishness, falsehood and so many other affairs of the modern age--can be avoided, and if by such chanting the complete process of self-realisation can be achieved--is it not our duty to do this service by combined force.

In this age of quarrel and fight everything has to be done by combined force to achieve ready success. As the topmost person of a group of large scale industries, your good personality knows better than me how combined forces and diverse energies make the particular industry a successful establishment.

In the same way we have to combine the different forces of Sociology in men, money, intelligence and field work to make the spiritual movement a grand success. If we do not do that we shall be failing in our duty to serve the complete whole.

No partial service or temporary benefit can lead us to perfection. The world is mad after such temporary benefit and partial service and it is our duty to change the face altogether by an authorized spiritual movement.

The other day I was very glad to hear your ideas about it and in our next meeting I wish to say some thing about it as I have realised.

Hope you are well.

With my regards.

Yours sincerely,

Goswami Abhay Charan Bhaktivedanta

Editor--"BACK TO GODHEAD."

 

 

 

[cbrahma]

When I speak of Western monastic corruption I'm not citing Hollywood as my authority. This is documented history that at least by the Middle Ages, monasteries were not particular centers of spiritual purity. This was recorded by poets such as Chaucer and later on by Dante, not to mention legitimate historians. If the Popes were having illegitimate children, what about the rest of the clergy? There was a need in fact for monastic reform.

 

During the tenth and eleventh centuries there were some definite movements that took place in order to revive and renew the monastic movement flowing out of the Benedictine history. Many of those new movements took place in central France. In the tenth, eleventh, and twelfth centuries France became the great center of monastic life and reform in the Catholic Church. First came the establishment of the Cluniac order, which was a reform movement based on the Benedictine Rule. During the tenth and eleventh centuries, Cluny represented almost everything that was vital and progressive in Western Christianity. The greatest figure in the Cluniac movement was Bernard of Cluny. He lived in the twelfth century. He wrote a great poem called "De Contemptu Mundi," which means "Contempt for the World." It was a 3,000 line poem that satirized contemporary monastic corruption. He was a monk who wrote a poem about how other monks were corrupt and how the monastic movement needed to be reformed and brought back into line with its original ideals. The poem contrasts monastic corruption and the transient pleasures of this life with the glories of heaven. So much of the poem is about heaven. It has served as the base of several hymns, including "Jerusalem the Golden."

 

It 'strictness' were enough, we have to remember how austere and strict were demoniac personalities like Hiranyaka.

I am not impressed by the spirituality of 'strict' disciples. It's amazing the austeries the ego will take us through for the sake of pious reputation.

[theist]

Thank you Suchandra for posting that letter which I have never seen before. It clearly shows the mission of Srila Prabhupada was always to spark the chanting of the names of God in whatever language or context (note Buddhism) the chanter was comfortable with.

 

This shows clearly the broad vision of SP and the broadness of the chanting movement of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu stripped away from all the ritual and form of Hindu religiousness.

 

He did bring that context also for that was the context in which he lived it but yet the only thing indespensible in this age is actually the Holy name itself. In any established religon there is a name for the Supreme Being already. The problem is not the lack of names or to persuade others to chant our favorite name over theirs. The only problem is people are not attracted to the Holy name they are already familar with.

 

No other way, no other way, no other way then the chanting of the Holy Names.

[theist]

 

When I speak of Western monastic corruption I'm not citing Hollywood as my authority. This is documented history that at least by the Middle Ages, monasteries were not particular centers of spiritual purity. This was recorded by poets such as Chaucer and later on by Dante, not to mention legitimate historians. If the Popes were having illegitimate children, what about the rest of the clergy? There was a need in fact for monastic reform.

 

 

It 'strictness' were enough, we have to remember how austere and strict were demoniac personalities like Hiranyaka.

I am not impressed by the spirituality of 'strict' disciples. It's amazing the austeries the ego will take us through for the sake of pious reputation.

Objections noted and no doubt there is truth to what you say. We can all acccept those monestaries must have had their problems also along with their successes.

 

But I see Suchandra making a broader point. Even the attempt a living a renounciates life is made exceedingly difficult in an industrialized world. It's hard to be simple nowdays. Many of those who have an urge, no matter how ill defined in their own minds, to seek something more than materialism life are frsutrated in their attempt at everystep brnded as failures and end up the rough edges of society as drug addicts and derelicts.

 

Afterall renuciation is the last thing the Capitaist wants to see in society and so the society is structured to almost force one to over consume and waste and the more one does so the more he is acknowledged and even praised as a successful man.

[cbrahma]

 

ARTIFICIAL RENUNCIATION IS NOT FAVORABLE FOR DEVOTIONAL SERVICE

In the Eleventh Canto, Twentieth Chapter, verse 31, of

Srimad-Bhagavatam , Krsna says, "My dear Uddhava, for persons

who are seriously engaged in My service, the cultivation of

philosophical speculation and artificial renunciation are not

very favorable. When a person becomes My devotee he

automatically attains the fruits of the renunciation of material

enjoyment, and he gets sufficient knowledge to understand the

Absolute Truth." That is the test of advancement in devotional

service. A devotee cannot be in darkness, because the Lord shows

him special favor and enlightens him from within.

In the Eleventh Canto, Twentieth Chapter, verses 32 and 33,

of Srimad-Bhagavatam the Lord further instructs Uddhava, "My

dear friend, the profits derived from fruitive activities,

austerities, the culture of philosophical knowledge,

renunciation, the practice of mystic yoga , charity and all

similar auspicious activities are automatically achieved by My

devotees--those who are simply attached to Me by loving service.

These devotees have everything at their disposal, but they desire

nothing outside of My devotional service. If ever a devotee

should desire some material profit, like promotion to the

heavenly planets, or some spiritual profit--to go to the

Vaikunthas--by My causeless mercy his desires are very easily

fulfilled."

(NOD ch. 14, pages 113-114)

1- CONSTITUTIONALLY GURU

A SANNYASI IS CONSTITUTIONALLY GURU OF ALL DIVISIONS

The society of human beings is naturally divided into

eight by orders and statuses of life-the four divisions of

occupation and four divisions of cultural advancement. The

intelligent class, the administrative class, the productive class

and the laborer class are the four divisions of occupation. And

the student life, the householder's life, retired life and

renounced life are the four statuses of cultural advancement

towards the path of spiritual realization. Out of these, the

renounced order of life, or the order of sannyasa, is considered

the highest of all, and a sannyasi is constitutionally the

spiritual master for all the orders and divisions.

(Bhag. 1.3.13 purp.)

 

[theist]

That referrence doesn't relate to the context of the conversation cbrahma.

[cbrahma]

 

That referrence doesn't relate to the context of the conversation cbrahma.

Renunciation is the context.

[suchandra]

 

When I speak of Western monastic corruption I'm not citing Hollywood as my authority. This is documented history that at least by the Middle Ages, monasteries were not particular centers of spiritual purity. This was recorded by poets such as Chaucer and later on by Dante, not to mention legitimate historians. If the Popes were having illegitimate children, what about the rest of the clergy? There was a need in fact for monastic reform.

 

 

It 'strictness' were enough, we have to remember how austere and strict were demoniac personalities like Hiranyaka.

I am not impressed by the spirituality of 'strict' disciples. It's amazing the austeries the ego will take us through for the sake of pious reputation.

This is surely right - and once again confirms how this world is made, nothing seems to exist without a dark side. However, when looking at the architecture how they put so much effort - how they built the japa cloister where the monks/nuns were chanting, it should be clear that they must have experienced quite some joy and happines while chanting. Otherwise why they built thousands of such cloisters if chanting would have been a ritual without any bliss?

 

Mosteiro dos Jerónimos, Belém, Lisbon, Portugal

 

Canterbury Japahall Great Britain 12th Century

[cbrahma]

No it's not just a side. Materiality is all dark. Trying to acheive a spiritual goal by some obssessive material practice no matter how austere, will be dark on all sides.

[suchandra]

 

No it's not just a side. Materiality is all dark. Trying to acheive a spiritual goal by some obssessive material practice no matter how austere, will be dark on all sides.

Just found this, sounds like Abhay:

 

The Cloisters of the Abbey ~

 

http://flickr.com/photos/virgomerry/2079050223/in/set-72157603038746089/

[theist]

Renunciation is a big topic. Better to renouce the world then become more entangled in it. You provide proof that renunciation alone will not lead to love of Krishna but that has never been in question.

 

These particular monks and nuns were not just renouncing they were chanting and praying an actively seeking a personal relationship with God, that is bhakti-yoga.

 

The structure of today's society looks down on such places as a waste of time whereas a proper human society would see providing such places as a main focal point for the public welfare.

[cbrahma]

 

Renunciation is a big topic. Better to renouce the world then become more entangled in it. You provide proof that renunciation alone will not lead to love of Krishna but that has never been in question.

 

These particular monks and nund were not just remouncing their were chanting and praying an actively seekinga personal relationship with God.

 

The structure of today's society looks down on such places as a waste of time whereas a proper human society would see providing such places as a main focal point for the public welfare.

I'm really not sure if society was better off with monasteries. I really don't get how a sequestered group of religious orders are the answer to the problems of materialism. There is no evidence that was the case in the Middle Ages or at any other time when the monastic orders thrived. If churchianity was so uplifting I wonder what would have motivated Dante to put clergy in the seventh circle of hell?

[theist]

 

I'm really not sure if society was better off with monasteries. I really don't get how a sequestered group of religious orders are the answer to the problems of materialism. There is no evidence that was the case in the Middle Ages or at any other time when the monastic orders thrived. If churchianity was so uplifting I wonder what would have motivated Dante to put clergy in the seventh circle of hell?

 

Better monastaries than hellish factories.

 

Well perhaps we have no perfect examples in recent history but that is not the point. Can't you see the value in a society structured so that everyone makes spiritual advancement even while engaged in their ordinary work on up to supporting those who try to go 100% into a life of bhajan and contemplation?

[cbrahma]

 

Better monastaries than hellish factories.

 

Well perhaps we have no perfect examples in recent history but that is not the point. Can't you see the value in a society structured so that everyone makes spiritual advancement even while engaged in their ordinary work on up to supporting those who try to go 100% into a life of bhajan and contemplation?

Monastaries were factories for cranking out clerics. The church was a monopoly of feudal serfdom. You will never sell me on the idea of an elitist clergy paid for by the sweat of the 'less spiritual'. History has already passed sentence.

[theist]

 

I'm really not sure if society was better off with monasteries. I really don't get how a sequestered group of religious orders are the answer to the problems of materialism.

 

The individuals who take advantage of monastic life benefit and society benefits by supporting the efforts toward God consciousness in the citizens.

 

 

 

Monastaries were factories for cranking out clerics. The church was a monopoly of feudal serfdom. You will never sell me on the idea of an elitist clergy paid for by the sweat of the 'less spiritual'. History has already passed sentence.

 

Not trying to sell you anything. Can't wait until you get past this need to argue with everything anybody says.

[cbrahma]

 

The individuals who take advantage of monastic life benefit and society benefits by supporting the efforts toward God consciousness in the citizens.

How do you know this? That individuals benefit by becoming clerics. And how is society benefiting?

 

 

 

Not trying to sell you anything. Can't wait until you get past this need to argue with everything anybody says.

I will ignore your sweeping cyber-psychology generalization. I have no such need. I just don't agree with your clericist view of spirituality.

[bija]

Quote:

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by theist

The individuals who take advantage of monastic life benefit and society benefits by supporting the efforts toward God consciousness in the citizens.

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this is a wonderful commentary theist, imo.

[suchandra]

 

How do you know this? That individuals benefit by becoming clerics. And how is society benefiting?

 

 

 

I will ignore your sweeping cyber-psychology generalization. I have no such need. I just don't agree with your clericist view of spirituality.

There is of course also a materialistic version how things "went wrong" whenever Krsna Himself incarnated and performed His eternal Lilas right on this planet - all these sahajiya movements sprang up, people didnt surrender, etc.

No doubt, the material mind produces unlimited versions how the path of spiritual advancement has so many shortcomings.

What surely never changes at all times, at all materialistic societies, that some people feel like everything what they try to do in the material society doesn't work out.

Profession, undertaking, married-life, circle of friends, kinship, happiness in daily life, all this doesn't give them complete satisfaction, they don't feel appendant to all this familiar surroundings.

They even try very hard to become established materially but it just doesn't work and symptoms of desperation, depression, bad temper or fainting become visible.

Even members of royal families, princesses and princes, used to announce, actually I wish to live in a monastary and become a monk/nun.

The vedic idea of living in a temple is that while living on one's own the disciplines of rising early in the morning, following sadhana bhakti, eating only offered food, keeping the association of spiritually inclined souls, all this more or less is impossible when living at one's homeland.

At least for getting an impression to live for a couple of months in a temple/monestary is surely helpful and gives an idea that the soul doesn't need all this materialism, but indeed has nothing to do with all these temporary material illusions.

 

 

Officium Parvum Beatae Mariae Virginis

 

"They all attend Mass every day and say many Paternosters (rosaries) in public, ... and whoever is at all able to read carries with him the Office of Our Lady; and they recite it in church with some companion in a low voice, verse by verse, after the manner of churchmen."

 

QUEM terra, pontus, sídera

Colunt, adórant, prædicant,

Trinam regéntem máchinam,

Claustrum Maríæ bájulat.

 

(Report of the Venetian Ambassador upon visiting England in 1496.)

 

Japa circuit at the east cloister of Gloucester Cathedral in south west England.

[theist]

 

At least for getting an impression to live for a couple of months in a temple/monestary is surely helpful and gives an idea that the soul doesn't need all this materialism, but indeed has nothing to do with all these temporary material illusions.

 

 

Yes even the occasional retreat for a short period of time can be off great benefit. No effort towards God consciousness is ever in vain. Impressions gained through austerity and intense prayer can be life changing. "A little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear." -Krishna

[cbrahma]

If monastaries were so spiritual then where are the results? An occasional retreat doesn't need architecture. The idea that you have to physically go somewhere for spiritual advancement is like the materialists who take yoga classes. You are feeding into the cleric churchianity model. Maya is in the heart and mind - changing location doesn't get rid of her. All you have to do is live in a temple for a while and it becomes painfully obvious.

[theist]

Not evading you brother I simply find your anti-anything religiousness tiring. It is simply far different then what I believe. We are on the same page when it comes to people arguing religous rules are the only way to God's grace, We know that is bs and say so.

 

But I also look at religion from another angle and see it as a valuable stepping stone towards transcendence. If one has a God given talent for constructing temples churchs mosques or other places dedicated to the communal glorification of the Lord then let them express that with all their abilities.

 

The problem that arises is people come to believe God only lives in the structure they build for Him. That is, God only exists in our church and not your temple. This is classic kanistha mentality.

 

Eventually with a little sincerity and grace they start to see God in other peoples religion also. Maybe only expressed minimually but present there nontheless.

 

Then they start to see in Him in their own heart and in the hearts of other religionists. Then also in the hearts of the atheist, animal, plant, microbe, atom, stars and all that lies between.

 

Religon is indespensible in society and only becomes a problem when we allow ourselves to get stuck anywhere along the progressive path short of complete realization of Bhagavan.

 

We should not constantly condemn the religous urges of others when they are expressed. We should be encouraging people of all religions as well as those of none to keep seeking higher truth just as we are being encouraged to do so.

 

I see it like people climbing a ladder. Say one person is on the fifth step and another is on the first step. Should the man on the fifth step tell the man on the first step not to bother with steps two, three and four because they are too low but instead just come on up to step five? Of course not! That is only a prescription on how to fall completely off the ladder.

 

He should instead encourage him to step onto the second step, maintain a firm balance and then proceed further to the next step as he himself must also be doing with the sixth and seventh steps.

 

This is what I see in Prabhupada's teachings. The Christian Buddhist or Muslim can iimprove their spiritual station by taking up the chanting of Christ Buddha or Allah.

 

In Prabhupada's teaching I find the narrowest, most concentrated and centered thought on Krishna alone but since Krishna is all pervasive that narrow fixation on Him also allows for the most broad mindedness toward others approaches to God to be held by His devotees.

 

God consciousness is not only progressive in the material world but it is eternal so because Krishna is unlimited and ever expanding. Acintya.

 

Religion with it's various forms, rites and rituals has it's proper place in this progression.