Abolishment Of Monasticism/Monkhood

[cbrahma]

Well tiresome cuts both ways.

 

There is religion and there is religiosity. One too easily converts into the other. Religion is according to SP, love of God. Religiosity is made up of the external institutional artifacts (lovely architecture) and ritualisms that divide and distinguish those who claim to love of God.

It issues in virulent sectarianism as is evidenced on this forum every day by members who will remain nameless, lest they post again.

 

Bhaktivinode Thakur and his Siksa disciple Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaj were very clear in their denunciation of religiosity.

 

I will for your benefit provide the definitive quotes

 

Sectarianism is a natural byproduct of the Absolute Truth. When acaryas first ascertain and instruct the Truth, it is not polluted with sectarianism. But the rules and regulations received through disciplic succession regarding the goal and the method of achieving it are changed in due course of time according to the mentality and locale of the people. A rule that is followed by one society is not necessarily accepted in another society. That is why one community is different from another. As a community gradually develops more respect for its own standards, it develops hatred towards other communities and considers their standards inferior. These sectarian symptoms are seen in all countries since time immemorial. This is prominent amongst neophytes and found to some extent amongst madhyama-adhikaris. Amongst uttama-adhikaris, however, there is no trace of sectarianism. Adherence to a particular standard is the prominent symptom of a society. There are three types of standards—alocakagata, alocanagata and alocyagata. Alocakagata is when sectarianists accept some external signs. Examples of alocakagata are tilaka, neck beads, saffron robes, and the baptism that is practiced abroad. The different activities practiced in the process of worship are called alocanagata. Examples of alocanagata are sacrifices, austerities, fire sacrifices, vows, studying scriptures, deity worship, constructing temples, respecting the purity of various trees and rivers, dressing like sannyasis, acting like acaryas, dressing like brahmacaris or grhasthas, closing one's eyes, respecting particular types of books, rules and regulations in eating, and respecting the purity of particular times and places. The examples of alocyagata are attributing personalism or impersonalism on the Supreme Lord, installing deities, exhibiting the mood of an incarnation of the Lord, speculating on heaven and hell, and describing the future destination of the soul. The different forms of these spiritual activities create divisions of sectarianism. Differences that arise from places, times, languages, behaviors, foods, dresses, and natures of various communities are incorporated within people's spiritual practices and gradually make one community so completely different from another community that even the consideration that everyone is a human being may cease to exist. Due to these differences there is disagreement, cessation of social intercourse, and fighting, even up to the point of killing on another. When an ass-like mentality becomes prominent within the kanishta-adhikaris, they certainly indulge in these things. But if they develop a swanlike mentality, then they do not take part in quarrels; rather, they endeavor to attain a higher level. Madhyama-adhikaris do not quarrel so much about external standards, but they are always attacked by philosophical disagreements. Sometimes they condemn the standards as superior. They condemn the neophytes' deity worship in order to establish the worship-able Lord as formless. In such cases, they are also considered ass-like people. Otherwise, if they had a swanlike mentality and a desire to attain a higher level, they would respect others' practices and inquire about higher topics. Contradictions actually arise only due to ass-like mentality. Swanlike persons consider the necessity for different practices to one's qualification, so they are naturally detached from sectarian quarrels. In this regard, it should be understood that both ass-like and swanlike people are found amongst the kanishta-adhikaris and madhyama-adhikaris.

Source: Sri Krishna-samhita By Bhaktivinoda Thakur

 

 

 

 

The idea of an organized church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dikes and dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bona-fide spiritual teacher. The people of this world understand preventive systems, they have no idea at all of the unprevented positive eternal life. Neither can there be any earthy contrivance for the permanent preservation of the life eternal on this mundane plane on the popular scale.

Those are, therefore, greatly mistaken who are disposed to look forward to the amelioration of the worldly state in any worldly sense from the worldly success of any really spiritual movement. It is these worldly expectants who become the patrons of the mischievous race of the pseudo-teachers of religion, the Putanas, whose congenial function is to stifle the theistic disposition at the very moment of its suspected appearance. But the theistic disposition can never be stifled by the efforts of those Putanas. The Putanas have power only over the atheist. It is a thankless but salutary task which they perform for the benefit of their unwilling victims.

But as soon as theistic disposition proper makes its appearance in the pure cognitive essence of the awakened soul, the Putanas are decisively silenced at the very earliest stage of their encounter with the new-born Krishna. The would-be slayer of herself slain. This is the reward of the negative services that the Putanas unwittingly render to the cause of theism by strangling all hypocritical demonstrations against their own hypocrisy. But Putana does not at all like to receive her reward in only form which involves the total destruction of her wrong personality. King Kamsa also does not like to lose the services of the most trusted of his agents. The effective silencing of the whole race of pseudo-teachers of religion is the first clear indication of the appearance of the Absolute on the mundane plane. The bona-fide teacher of the Absolute, heralds the Advent of Krishna by his uncompromising campaign against the pseudo-teachers of religion.

by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur

 

 

 

 

So obviously my tiresome belief has not been wrenched from my rectum.

[theist]

It's not your beliefs that are tiresome it is your need to endless argue.

[cbrahma]

 

It's not your beliefs that are tiresome it is your need to endless argue.

I don't need to argue in general. That's an ad hominem you can't prove.

You seem to argue with everything with which you disagree as does everybody else.

[theist]

Whatever. I don't want to argue about it.

[cbrahma]

 

Whatever. I don't want to argue about it.

Ironically you brought it up. I don't waste my time arguing over semantics of Vedic texts and with people who persist in flaming. So my endless argumentation has definite and rational limits. My disagreements are topic-specific. I would not put anybody on ignore if I just wanted to argue. It occurs to me that it was a subject I brought up long ago when this forum was full of pedantic Vedic text quibblers. So they argued that my objecting to their arguing was arguing and round and round it went. I guess you're falling in with the same argument.

[suchandra]

 

Well tiresome cuts both ways.

 

There is religion and there is religiosity. One too easily converts into the other. Religion is according to SP, love of God. Religiosity is made up of the external institutional artifacts (lovely architecture) and ritualisms that divide and distinguish those who claim to love of God.

It issues in virulent sectarianism as is evidenced on this forum every day by members who will remain nameless, lest they post again.

 

Bhaktivinode Thakur and his Siksa disciple Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaj were very clear in their denunciation of religiosity.

 

I will for your benefit provide the definitive quotes

 

 

 

 

So obviously my tiresome belief has not been wrenched from my rectum.

That's the least what could be expected from someone learned as you are to see the overall picture. What is the present situation, where is human society heading. It was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja and later Prabhupada who considered that people cannot give up their anarthas unless they're expertly trained. To argue that this training sometimes fails is relevant but to stop a program, initiated by great acaryas, is surely not the solution.

Looks like you're one of those who say, Oh Swamiji is dangerous. And if somebody teaches, “My dear boys and girls, take drugs and get liquored up, go to hell and when you become mad just go to the lunatic asylum,” Commenting, "Oh, that is a pitty…but what can be done?"

 

 

 

Prabhupada: And if some of the students are taught to become highest of the mankind, their guardians become disturbed: “Oh, my son is going to be highest of the mankind? Swamijī, you are playing dangerous things.” Oh. Just see. Swamijī’s speaking, “No, don’t smoke. Don’t take tea. Don’t have illicit connection with women. Be upright. Be devotee.” “Oh, Swamijī’s dangerous.” And if somebody teaches, “My dear boys, take LSD, go to hell, and become mad. Go to the lunatic asylum,” “Oh, that is…” What can be done? This is the situation.

 

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Madhya-līlā 20.124-125

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

New York, November 26, 1966

[mysteria]

This cbrahma is a funny guy, he doesn't chant, doesn't offer his food (even say's being a vegetarian is hard) yet he thinks he can tell everyone what KC is really all about like he knows, if he really knew he would be experiencing it and if he was experiencing it he would not be having such problems following.

 

Thiest I disagree with you, cbrahmas beliefs are what makes him so agitated, which in turn makes him want to endlessly argue with everyone. The closer you are to truth in your beliefs the more calm you are within yourself and your dealings with others. This cbrahma is clearly a very disturbed person and that becomes manifest in his dealings here with others.

 

The need to argue endlessly or the desire to does not show you have attained any level of advancement at all no matter how many quotes, letters you can copy and paste. In fact cbrahma is using the words of Srila Prabupada for his own ego gratification and using them to crush others, this is a great aparadha!

[suchandra]

 

This cbrahma is a funny guy, he doesn't chant, doesn't offer his food (even say's being a vegetarian is hard) yet he thinks he can tell everyone what KC is really all about like he knows, if he really knew he would be experiencing it and if he was experiencing it he would not be having such problems following.

 

Thiest I disagree with you, cbrahmas beliefs are what makes him so agitated, which in turn makes him want to endlessly argue with everyone. The closer you are to truth in your beliefs the more calm you are within yourself and your dealings with others. This cbrahma is clearly a very disturbed person and that becomes manifest in his dealings here with others.

 

The need to argue endlessly or the desire to does not show you have attained any level of advancement at all no matter how many quotes, letters you can copy and paste. In fact cbrahma is using the words of Srila Prabupada for his own ego gratification and using them to crush others, this is a great aparadha!

Excellent points, well spoken! There seems a huge propaganda machine activated to close all the temples in the Western hemisphere and people use any forum to push that policy. What we have all over Europe are no more preaching centers of bhakti-yoga but Hindu cultural centers. This is of course also an important service but was not the actual framework directive by the great acaryas of Gaudiya Vaishnavism who ordered Radha-Krishna temples to be opened worldwide.

At a recent GBC meeting ISKCON gurus even admitting, more than 90% of their disciples don't live within temples anymore. What comes next?

[cbrahma]

 

This cbrahma is a funny guy, he doesn't chant, doesn't offer his food (even say's being a vegetarian is hard) yet he thinks he can tell everyone what KC is really all about like he knows, if he really knew he would be experiencing it and if he was experiencing it he would not be having such problems following.

 

Thiest I disagree with you, cbrahmas beliefs are what makes him so agitated, which in turn makes him want to endlessly argue with everyone. The closer you are to truth in your beliefs the more calm you are within yourself and your dealings with others. This cbrahma is clearly a very disturbed person and that becomes manifest in his dealings here with others.

 

The need to argue endlessly or the desire to does not show you have attained any level of advancement at all no matter how many quotes, letters you can copy and paste. In fact cbrahma is using the words of Srila Prabupada for his own ego gratification and using them to crush others, this is a great aparadha!

 

You are speculating outrageously. You just registered with this forum and you are already pontificating about my mind and soul. How presumptous. If you knew what my discussions consisted of you wouldn't be able to back that up. If I wanted to argue with everybody I wouldn't agree with anybody, and that is simply a falsehood.

If it makes you feel better, more justified, more advanced to dismiss everything I say with this gross speculation rather than addressing my statements on their own merits, so much the better. I have at least six people on ignore precisely because I don't want to argue pointlessly, especially with these no-brainer outrageous personal diatribes of the kind you are launching to justify any argument you put forth. BTW I'm not the least bit agitated. The people I'm disagreeing with proper support I might add are the ones getting agitated. And it's really twisted to claim that quoting Prabhupada as such to make a logical philosophical point is apharada.LOL. You think Theist, the one who crafted this little gem of an 'ad hominem' is a fully practicing devotee? Ask him.

[cbrahma]

 

To argue that this training sometimes fails is relevant but to stop a program, initiated by great acaryas, is surely not the solution.

 

Where have I said to stop a program? And what program are you talking about? Monasteries. ISKCON is not a Church and Vaisnavism is not a religion.

[cbrahma]

 

Excellent points, well spoken! There seems a huge propaganda machine activated to close all the temples in the Western hemisphere and people use any forum to push that policy. What we have all over Europe are no more preaching centers of bhakti-yoga but Hindu cultural centers. This is of course also an important service but was not the actual framework directive by the great acaryas of Gaudiya Vaishnavism who ordered Radha-Krishna temples to be opened worldwide.

At a recent GBC meeting ISKCON gurus even admitting, more than 90% of their disciples don't live within temples anymore. What comes next?

I'm hardly part of a propaganda machine. ISKCON has very much embraced the clerical churchianity model to which you of monk/congregation. That is the cause of their failure. Not the so-called propaganda machine.

[Kulapavana]

You have to understand why so many people took to monastic life in the past, and the economic system that made such monasteries possible. It was a lot more than simple piety of people that made these institutions flourish.

 

People were poor and uneducated. The monasteries provided both material and educational needs. That is why so many people joined them. They were all supported by the feudal system, where 10% of all goods and monies went to Church.

 

Granted, the world appears to be becoming more and more materialistic and egotistical, but even back then in Middle Ages materialism and egoism were the norm.

[theist]

I see the difference between congregational types and monks in reality quite independent of Iskcon or any religious institution. For the lack of a better word I am of the congregational type and I know others who are very much inclined to live as monks. I don't see this as a problem but rather just the natural order of things.

 

Now the Iskcon institution has made this difficult for myself as a congregational type and the monk types I know by the deviations at the top. I as a congregational type can't support the present system and the monks types I know can't live within a political and corrupt organization as simple hearted monks.

[bhaktajan]

6/24/2008:

A Catholic monk known as Father Metallo is to star with Iron Maiden at the Gods of Metal heavy rock festival this month.

The guitar playing priest has made 15 heavy metal albums which he records between undertaking missionary work in the Ivory Coast.

Italian-born Father Metallo - real name Cesare Bonizzi, 62 - only became a monk aged 29 after working in a factory and then as a showbiz agent.

This month he will appear alongside metal legends Judas Priest, Slayer, Iron Maiden and Morbid Angel in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:place w:st=" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bologna</st1:place></st1:City>. His passion for rock started after a Metallica concert in 1992.

"Is heavy metal the music of the devil? No it is not, and heavy metal singers are very sweet," said Father Metallo.

 

[suchandra]

 

I see the difference between congregational types and monks in reality quite independent of Iskcon or any religious institution. For the lack of a better word I am of the congregational type and I know others who are very much inclined to live as monks. I don't see this as a problem but rather just the natural order of things.

 

Now the Iskcon institution has made this difficult for myself as a congregational type and the monk types I know by the deviations at the top. I as a congregational type can't support the present system and the monks types I know can't live within a political and corrupt organization as simple hearted monks.

 

This is an important point being made!

Monks who have given up everything and taken up the severe austerity for uplifting human society - to cheat such monks and exploit them for material enrichment is surely a great sin and injustice. Spiritual leaders who consciously commit such a sin are in the most precarious situation for not only destroying the situation of monks but also the most important service of uplifting present demoniac human society.