Was Jesus' Resurrection a Sequel?

[Dark Warrior]

 

I would like to become Vaishnava someday, but I'll never ask for Moksha.

What do you understand by the term Moksha, my dear bookish fellow.

 

You are going way off track, my dear Hare Christna.

 

Irrespective of whether we get moksha or not, Vishnu wants us to worship Him alone. Hence, it is our duty.

 

Krishna makes it absolutely clear that worship of devas, Jesus, Popeye, etc. and surrendering to them is imperfect knowledge and only reaches Him indirectly. He also makes it clear that all jivas should only worship Him, and not anya-devata.

 

This follows that the bhaktas of other gods, even Shiva, are not Vaishnavas, nor are their paths recommended by Vishnu.

 

Without understanding this simple fact, you claim to follow Vaishnavism. Terrific.

 

 

 

 

You are champion in taking an issue to that level.

 

Concerning a path being authentic or not and correpondingly lead to Moksha, is something even the ignorant Iskcon devotees know, but my dear friend, not knowing that Krishna is behind all religions is the greatest goof.

 

He is the cause of all the causes.

 

Krishna, first of all, is even behind Buddhism. Does not make it an authentic path.

 

Secondly, Krishna did not personally inaugrate all religions. Some man made religions are simply that - man-made.

 

Thirdly, just because Krishna is god of all, does not mean all religions are authentic. Krishna makes it clear that people should follow the principles of Vaishnavism as enshrined in the Vedas.

 

If a person worships Shiva as supreme, he is disobeying Krishna. Same goes for all these cults.

 

Gita clearly says demigod worship will not lead to moksha. So, first learn sastra and then comment.

 

Tomorrow, I could write a new book on how Mickey Mouse is god, and invent rituals for surrendering to Mickey Mouse, with Bhakti Yoga. Doesn't make my path authentic.

[bija]

 

Tomorrow, I could write a new book on how Mickey Mouse is god, and invent rituals for surrendering to Mickey Mouse, with Bhakti Yoga. Doesn't make my path authentic. by dark

But you would have 'soon enough' your own band of merry followers...the mousekateers (and the mickey mouse club). And lots of cheese pakora!

[Dark Warrior]

Amlesh, forget abut scripture. You lack the ability to even use pratyaksha.

 

Do you see any Vaishnava reading 'Shiva Purana'? After all, this purana teahes Bhakti Yoga to Shiva. Should be 'bonafide', as Hare Christnas put it. Yet, no Vaishnava acharya has ever recommended this Purana.

 

Understanding that God has 4 hands, and is the dark hued Vishnu is the prime criterion for Vaishnavism. Anybody who does not follow the rituals of Vaishnavism, is not a Vaishnava. Anybody who worships anyone other than Vishnu is not a Vaishnava. Anybody who says all paths are authentic because there is one God has not read scripture properly.

 

God is One. Vishnu. Path to realise Him is only one. Other paths are simply a distraction.

[Dark Warrior]

 

But you would have 'soon enough' your own band of merry followers...the mousekateers (and the mickey mouse club). And lots of cheese pakora!

 

And you would soon probably have a personal experience of Mickey Mouse coming in your dreams and telling you to ignore the Vedas, rely on hallucinations and that all paths are equal. I guarantee that.

[Amlesh]

 

You are going way off track, my dear Hare Christna.

 

Irrespective of whether we get moksha or not, Vishnu wants us to worship Him alone. Hence, it is our duty.

 

Krishna makes it absolutely clear that worship of devas, Jesus, Popeye, etc. and surrendering to them is imperfect knowledge and only reaches Him indirectly. He also makes it clear that all jivas should only worship Him, and not anya-devata.

 

This follows that the bhaktas of other gods, even Shiva, are not Vaishnavas, nor are their paths recommended by Vishnu.

 

Without understanding this simple fact, you claim to follow Vaishnavism. Terrific.

 

I perfectly understand that and I also understand what Hari said in the Gita, "For those who prays to the demigods, I make their faith stronger."

 

Why should I oppose Hari. For the one who is meant to understand, I can give him my life it is needed so, to make him aware of Hari. For others they are free to pray to Popeye and Daffy.

 

 

 

 

Krishna, first of all, is even behind Buddhism. Does not make it an authentic path.

 

Secondly, Krishna did not personally inaugrate all religions. Some man made religions are simply that - man-made.

 

Thirdly, just because Krishna is god of all, does not mean all religions are authentic. Krishna makes it clear that people should follow the principles of Vaishnavism as enshrined in the Vedas.

 

That's why he chose only Arjun to deliver his message. It's true, if everyone can understand Gita, it would have been nice, but hey, we are in the material world, very rarely people chooses this path.

 

Dark in Wonderland.

If a person worships Shiva as supreme, he is disobeying Krishna. Same goes for all these cults.

 

Gita clearly says demigod worship will not lead to moksha. So, first learn sastra and then comment.

 

Tomorrow, I could write a new book on how Mickey Mouse is god, and invent rituals for surrendering to Mickey Mouse, with Bhakti Yoga. Doesn't make my path authentic.

 

Disobeying Krishna is the thing you've been doing since eternity, but still today you got the opportunity to be a Devotee, same it is for others. Have patience.

[Dark Warrior]

 

I perfectly understand that and I also understand what Hari said in the Gita, "For those who prays to the demigods, I make their faith stronger."

 

Absolutely shocking. Is this what you really thought Vaishnavism is?

 

He certainly makes their faith stronger. Have you even understood the context? He makes their faith stronger because the jivas are in a state of rajasic or tamasic modes when they worship demigods. Hence, at that stage, they are not qualified to worship Hari. So, Vishnu simply keeps them in that path until their karmas are cleansed sufficiently to be eligible for Hari bhakti.

 

The Lord is neutral, but He abides by the laws of Karma out of His own will. Vaishnavas have always maintained that it takes a jiva 7 births of Shiva worship to be completely purified to merit a Vaishnava birth.

 

So, in essence, it means that 1) The Lord is clarifying that even if a Jiva has faith in a fictional deity, that faith is only due to Vishnu, and hence, He is urging jivas to recognise Him alone, and abandon that fictional deity, 2) The Lord says that He keeps the faith of the Jiva in that fictional deity/demigod intact, but HE DOES NOT LIKE DOING SO. Krishna clarifies that only unintelligent people worship Him this way. However, being the neutral Lord of all, He simply makes faith of jiva in another deity strong as a matter of duty. He doesn't like it or recommend it.

 

Thirdly, He makes it abundantly clear that the only way to moksha is one minded Hari Bhakti, not Shaivism or Christianity. By saying 'Mam EKAM Saranam Vraja' and not 'Mam Saranam Vraja', He makes it clear that the right way is to have EKA bhakti, and not meander to other paths.

 

Good Lord, you don't even know this simple fact, and you think you are qualified to judge who is a Vaishnava and who isn't.

 

 

Why should I oppose Hari. For the one who is meant to understand, I can give him my life it is needed so, to make him aware of Hari. For others they are free to pray to Popeye and Daffy.

 

Again, a completely wayward statement.

 

A person who worships Jesus, Popeye, etc. refuses to acknowledge Hari is the supreme God. Hence, it is an act of disobeidience. The Lord, understanding that the jiva is not yet cleansed of Karmas, makes the jiva's faith strong in the chosen deity until after a few births, the jiva realises Hari is Supreme.

 

Austerities not sanctioned by the Vedas are tamasic. Hence, Shaiva Agamas, Baptism, Renunciation of Jains, etc. are all tamasic, because they have no Vedic Sanction.

 

You are free to do what you want. Like Ravana, you can even fight Vishnu. Doesn't mean every path is authentic.

 

 

 

That's why he chose only Arjun to deliver his message. It's true, if everyone can understand Gita, it would have been nice, but hey, we are in the material world, very rarely people chooses this path.

 

And why do people rarely choose this path? Because, Shaivites, Christians et al. are deluded by karma, and cannot understand Hari is Supreme.

 

So, their paths do not bear fruit.

 

Bhagavan chooses people randomly, like a bride throwing her bouquet to the crowd.

 

 

 

Disobeying Krishna is the thing you've been doing since eternity, but still today you got the opportunity to be a Devotee, same it is for others. Have patience.

 

First of all, it is an ISKCON thing that we 'fell' out of Vaikuntha due to disobeidience. The Jiva has been in samsara eternally, and is deluded due to karma. Until the jiva realises that his position is to serve Hari and NOT to serve Shiva, Jesus, Allah, etc., he will NOT be liberated.

 

Simple as that.

 

I do not know why I am debating with a complete non-entity like Amlesh. No knowledge of what Vaishnavism is, and he blabbers on about all paths being authentic.

[Dark Warrior]

Edit

[Dark Warrior]

EDIT: Sorry about the triple posting. A slight problem with connection.

 

In any case, Amlesh and Co. first need to understand that no Vaishnava ever calls a Shaiva as 'spiritual' or 'on the right path'. Every Vaishnava acharya was categorical in condemning Shaivism as tamo guna. A few isolated slokas of Gita understood without context by Christian Vaishnavas leads to this confusion.

 

Of Course, a Shaiva will not accept this. No problems with that.

[Bishadi]

 

EDIT: Sorry about the triple posting. A slight problem with connection.

 

leads to this confusion.

 

Of Course, a Shaiva will not accept this. No problems with that.

 

Wow! seen many a folk walking in the dark, but the warrior must have bumped his head.....

 

perhaps use a 'light'

 

about to go hostile on you old timer .... you a lost puppy raging for order but simply by this one thread, you be all over the place

 

like a warrior in the dark; specifically

 

 

Irrespective of whether we get moksha or not, Vishnu wants us to worship Him alone. Hence, it is our duty.

then what is this about

 

 

Krishna makes it absolutely clear that worship of devas, Jesus, Popeye, etc. and surrendering to them is imperfect knowledge and only reaches Him indirectly. He also makes it clear that all jivas should only worship Him,

 

Krsna is not Vishnu. That is like saying Jesus is God.

 

 

Without understanding this simple fact

You be in a spin cycle without an understanding of the words you reprsent.

 

The basic criterion for Vaishnavism is, 'Worship of Vishnu'

 

God alone. Not diciples, not teaches, not 'gods incarnate'.... not even a Son of god......

 

 

To a Vedantin, silence means lack of ability to put up a coherent theory.

Maybe silence has a lot to do with making a wise choice.

 

 

Understanding that God has 4 hands,

Correct! The four colors of mankind, is exactly what that means.

 

 

 

Anybody who says all paths are authentic because there is one God has not read scripture properly.

such that a dark warrior is who is to tell the world how to think

 

 

The idiocy has reached new levels.

What an understatement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dark Warrior; try silence as your class room.

otherwise go lay by your dish

 

[bija]

Why does dark call me a Hare Christna? And always attack. When I am not a christian, but simply respect the person Jesus for his devotion.

 

Krsna is the Supreme Gentle (full of love, simplicity, and sweetness - and boyish play;)).

 

Several years ago I desired to have Krsna manifest in my home, in a form suitable to my internal mood. I live in country Australia...with very little/virtually no influence of Vaisnavism evident, a long way from the land of Sri Vaisnavism. I have very little money and could not afford the Deity of my heart. For two years each payday I walked the second hand stores in hope to find him (why would he be here...so far from home). Every fortnight without fail. After the end of two years...the Lord in my heart inspired me toward a junk market. And there He was....dirty, neglected, and lost....holding a butter ball. He had left South India around 100 years ago...who knows where he travelled over those years. Ending up in a country town in Australia, sitting amongst a pile of junk metal. No one having any idea who he was (the Supreme Lord).

 

I purchased him from the seller, for the price of an average piece of scrap. Took Him home and bathed him, chastised him, dried him and placed him upon His seat. My hope is oneday to be able to offer lavish worship (by Gurudeva's mercy)...and set him up for public worship.

 

Dark thinks I am a foolish mlecha...Krsna thinks I am his friend. Please dark warrior...give up your klesa against simple devotion! And awaken to your inner beauty...the man we love!

 

Here he is Dark (for your pleasure), the Lord of my heart (sorry for the poor quality photo from my webcam, I do not own a digital camera):

 

 

 

 

In the spirit of debate - lightness, boyish play, and love...your servant....bija.

[Dark Warrior]

 

Wow! seen many a folk walking in the dark, but the warrior must have bumped his head.....

 

perhaps use a 'light'

 

about to go hostile on you old timer .... you a lost puppy raging for order but simply by this one thread, you be all over the place

 

like a warrior in the dark; specifically

 

Bishadi, a simple question - do you know how to write coherently? Or do you have dyslexia?

 

Because, even a chipmunk tap dancing across the keyboard would be able to string sentences better than you. Not a lick of sense in any of your posts. Hence, there is no use answering you, since you appear to be in another dimension althogether.

[Amlesh]

 

Bishadi, a simple question - do you know how to write coherently? Or do you have dyslexia?

 

 

Go in front of the mirror and ask yourself this question, Dark.

 

 

Because, even a chipmunk tap dancing across the keyboard would be able to string sentences better than you. Not a lick of sense in any of your posts. Hence, there is no use answering you, since you appear to be in another dimension althogether.

 

Bishadi may be very original in his approach, but he knows the sense of Harmony, which is not your trade mark.

[Amlesh]

Dark has too many naming conventions in his data dictionary and like to tag people with many designations, though being a Vaishnava.

 

God has given knowledge for application but you learn it like a bookish fellow and blabber like a parrot. Nothing more.

 

Dark Parrot, I think Crow suits you better.

 

See me too have stooped to your level, better not to argue with you.

[AncientMariner]

I gotta admit Dark Warrior does make some decent points from time to time. Who really knows what the real story is in regards to Jesus as noone can know for sure what was in his heart or if he was even real. Either way I still consider his story to be divine just as many of the stories in Srimad Bhagavatam seem to be divine regardless wether they are true or not. Srimad Bhagavatam seems to be a fairly reasonable explanation of the universe etc. but I still do not know for sure about anything because in this world it seems like the minute I think I know something for sure reality b*tch slaps me real good. So I try to be open minded but gotta admit I hope Krishna is real because flying around with Krishna on magic birds and having 16,000 wives etc. sounds a lot more fun than this mundane reality. Just kidding about the 16,000 wives.

[bija]

 

Who really knows what the real story is in regards to Jesus as noone can know for sure what was in his heart or if he was even real. by ancient

Devotion is the way to find out if 'jesus christo' or Lord Krsna are real. We will never find the truth of their presence by intellectual speculation (but only argumentation will be the fruit of speculation - a doubting mind). But by devotion a proof will appear...that is brighter than the sun (do we fail to see the sun). This is the way of bhakti yoga - each needs to find that light and his own ishta-deva.

 

I agree ancient...dark warrior makes many good points..it has been excellent reading his posts. But he makes one huge mistake...if we adore Krsna we adore his servants. If we can raise our vision - all are his servants, and worthy of respect. This is what I wished to express in my above post - Krsna is not bound by any book or knowledge, he is bound by love. He is universal...in relation with all! If we do not raise our vision...we will never understand how harmony and truth can co-exist.

 

How can we say Jesus is not his servant, when all particles serve Him, even if unknowingly (as may be the case with Jesus).

[bija]

 

Devotion is the way to find out if 'jesus christo' or Lord Krsna are real. We will never find the truth of their presence by intellectual speculation (but only argumentation will be the fruit of speculation - a doubting mind). But by devotion a proof will appear...that is brighter than the sun (do we fail to see the sun). This is the way of bhakti yoga - each needs to find that light and his own ishta-deva.

 

I agree ancient...dark warrior makes many good points..it has been excellent reading his posts. But he makes one huge mistake...if we adore Krsna we adore his servants. If we can raise our vision - all are his servants, and worthy of respect. This is what I wished to express in my above post - Krsna is not bound by any book or knowledge, he is bound by love. He is universal...in relation with all! If we do not raise our vision...we will never understand how harmony and truth can co-exist.

 

How can we say Jesus is not his servant, when all particles serve Him, even if unknowingly (as may be the case with Jesus). posted by bija

 

Ofcourse dark will counter-debate and say the christian will not achieve moksha (but god can bend these rules, He is not bound). On closer inspection it is clear dark's motivation to demean the person Jesus is his affliction of the mind from listening to too much death metal in his wild days:rolleyes: - not based on pure intent (even though backing his statements with sastra). He is unbeatable in this debate from a scriptural pount of view - but from the heart he is already surrendered:pray:.

 

But I must say this - either side of the debate has failed if they resort to personal attacks, which proves we are still bound in the tight grips of false-ego!

[Dark Warrior]

 

Dark has too many naming conventions in his data dictionary and like to tag people with many designations, though being a Vaishnava.

 

God has given knowledge for application but you learn it like a bookish fellow and blabber like a parrot. Nothing more.

 

Dark Parrot, I think Crow suits you better.

 

See me too have stooped to your level, better not to argue with you.

 

Amlesh, you do not first of all have the brains to understand anything about Vaishnavism. I reproduce your famous declaration, 'worshipping Popeye is OK and makes one a Vaishnava'. Demonstrates the level of maturity you have.

 

So, until and unless you bring some valid pramanas, clam up.

 

 

But he makes one huge mistake...if we adore Krsna we adore his servants. If we can raise our vision - all are his servants, and worthy of respect. This is what I wished to express in my above post - Krsna is not bound by any book or knowledge, he is bound by love. He is universal...in relation with all! If we do not raise our vision...we will never understand how harmony and truth can co-exist.

 

Bija, you are hopeless. You never did get it, do you?

 

1) Vedas are not any old 'book'. They are apaurusheya, and the eternal breath of Brahman. Without the Vedas, you cannot understand Him. Due to maya, personal experiences may be hallucinations, we may never know. Even Dhruva during his penance had some imaginary visions of the Lord.

 

2) A text like Vishnu Sahasranama is needed to understand the kalyana gunas of Brahman. We cannot get to know of his lilas by 'personal experience'. And according to Vaishnavism, spiritual progress means reading the pastimes of the Lord.

 

3) Lastly, Krishna may be everyone's God, but that doesn't mean everyone accepts Him. Have you ever heard of the 63 Nayanmars, devotees of Shiva? They were completely surrendered to Shiva and did extraordinary things. They also were austere, humble and pure of heart.

 

Yet, it is a fact that no Vaishnava 'pays respects' to the Nayanmars. We do not even consider them as god realised, for they believe Shiva (and not Vishnu) to be supreme.

 

Jesus and the Nayanmars belong in one category. No amount of so-called 'bhakti', martyrdom and sacrifice is relevant unless they worship Hari.

 

Bija, it gets really annoying when you keep rambling about 'bookish knowledge' without understanding what Vedanta is about. First understand what vaishnavism is, and then comment.

[Dark Warrior]

 

god can bend these rules, He is not bound). On closer inspection it is clear dark's motivation to demean the person Jesus is his affliction of the mind from listening to too much death metal in his wild days:rolleyes: - not based on pure intent (even though backing his statements with sastra). He is unbeatable in this debate from a scriptural pount of view - but from the heart he is already surrendered:pray:.

 

Shut up.

 

Yes. Krishna can give moksha to even Chistians. However, that doesn't make their path right or their practice 'spiritual'. It is because He has grace.

 

Just because a jiva gets moksha doesn't mean he did everything right. Vaishnavism is the path to follow, and that is the duty of Jivas. Sometimes, out of love, Bhagavan may give moksha to people who even disobey Him. Doesn't mean the path is valid.

[Dark Warrior]

 

Devotion is the way to find out if 'jesus christo' or Lord Krsna are real. We will never find the truth of their presence by intellectual speculation (but only argumentation will be the fruit of speculation - a doubting mind). But by devotion a proof will appear...that is brighter than the sun (do we fail to see the sun). This is the way of bhakti yoga - each needs to find that light and his own ishta-deva.

 

No Vaishnava accepts the 'ishta-deva' concept. That is neovedanta or mordern advaita. The only deity we worship is Vishnu. Worship of other deities is fruitless, according to Vaishnavas.

 

Bija, you are entitled to your opinions. However, do not call this as 'Vaishnavism'. It definitely isn't.

 

Amlesh, bija, etc. have no arguments other than babbling on about 'personal realisation'. And of course, since a study of Vedanta is beyond their mental capacity, they simply dismiss it as 'intellectual speculation'. One can wonder as to what exactly they are trying to achieve here.

[bija]

 

1) Vedas are not any old 'book'. by dark

The books are Truth dark. But god is independant...he can do anything...even grant the christian residence in Goloka if he chooses.

 

I will end here. I wish not to commit offence or allow room for others to.

 

 

Sometimes, out of love, Bhagavan may give moksha to people who even disobey Him. Doesn't mean the path is valid.

by dark warrior

Exactly dark...a perfect point! You are correct also...we practice by hearing the Lord's lila. We are fortunate in that we accept the Bhagavatam and can hear. Maybe we can apply intelligence and soften the christian by kindness (not by pointing the inadequacy of their book - even if it is full of stuff that is not transcendental).

[Dark Warrior]

 

The books are Truth dark. But god is independant...he can do anything...even grant the christian residence in Goloka if he chooses.

 

I will end here. i wish not to commit offnce or allow room others to.

 

Again, clam up. This is nonsense.

 

Did I deny that Christians MAY get moksha?

 

One of the fundamental principles of Vaishnavism is the causeless mercy of the Lord. According to this doctrine, the Lord, sometimes MAY, out of His mercy, give a Jiva moksha even when the Jiva does not deserve it.

 

According to sastra, worshipping Hari alone is the position of a jiva. Any jiva who has veered from this position, is not worthy of notice or respect by other Vaishnavas (you simply respect him as another human being/jivatma, that's all).

 

However, the Lord sometimes does give Moksha to undeserving people who haven't worshipped Him.

 

Meaning, He may give moksha to a rebellious atheist, to a cat, an insect, a dog, a microbe or a Christian or a Shaiva or a Muslim quite randomly.

 

But that does NOT make the birth of a dog or a cat or an insect, or the belief of a Christian or Atheist valid. Its simply grace.

 

Just because a cat gets moksha doesn't mean the birth of a cat guarantees moksha for everyone. Similarly, christianity doesn't become valid because a few christians get moksha.

 

However, Vaishnavas believe that Vaishnavism is the only path that is certain to obtain the Lord's grace.

 

Thanks to people like Bija and Amlesh, 'Vaishnavism' nowadays is a term used fo everything it doesn't stand for.

 

 

Maybe we can apply intelligence and soften the christian by kindness (not by pointing the inadequacy of their book - even if it is

 

Vaishnavism is the one minded worship of Vishnu. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

A Christian becomes eligible for the Lord's grace only if he rejects Jesus and worships Vishnu. Accept this, you are a Vaishnava. Reject this, you are not a Vaishnava.

[Amlesh]

Dear Dark you like to find errors on Iskcon devotees but I can find that to some extent you are like them, you don't have that universal approach concerning Vaishnavism. People like you and them make Vaishnavism like a sectarian Philosophy.

 

Open your eyes dude. And when did I say that when you pray to Popeye, Bugs Bunny, Loulou McWolf you become Vaishnava. You become Vaishnava when you pray to Hari, but Jesus's is not bad in terms of morality, and if followed perfectly will some day or the other lead to Vaishnavism.

 

And please don't associate me with Iskcon, My Guru is Srila Prabhupad and Krishna only, that's all.

[Amlesh]

with that I'm signing off.

 

Pleased to meet you Dark Headed.

 

This is for you...

 

Tamaso(Dark) ma Jyortir Gamaya (light), this prayer was specially composed for you.

 

I hope someday you'll become Light Warrior.

[Dark Warrior]

I think the basic question plaguing these pseudo devotees is, if a person is a servant of 'god', then why is he not worthy of respect?

 

This is due to ignorance of the most fundamental tenet of Vaishnavism - Ie, surrender to the wrong concept of God is a dosha, and is against the wishes of Krishna. Hence, just because a Shaiva surrenders to Shiva, or a Christian surrenders to the 'Father', it doesn't mean they are spiritual, or that they are exalted.

 

Secondly, these pseudo Vaishnavas ask another question, 'Everyone is a servant of Vishnu, then why demean some?'

 

For that matter, even a microbe, or an asura like Ravana is a servant of Vishnu. Doesn't mean we go giving respects to insects or asuras.

 

Thirdly, 'bookish knowledge' nonsense. This stems from their lack of knowledge of Vedanta. The Vedas are not 'books'. They are the eternal laws, not even authored by Vishnu. The Puranas and Ithihasas clearly mention the pastimes of the Lord as the only way to understanding Brahman.

 

Without Vishnu Sahasranama or Ramayana, little progress can be made in spiritual life. Bija and Amlesh are living examples of people who have no idea what the heck is Vaishnavism, and simply formulate their own opinions, labelling it as 'Vaishnavism'.

[Dark Warrior]

 

Dear Dark you like to find errors on Iskcon devotees but I can find that to some extent you are like them, you don't have that universal approach concerning Vaishnavism. People like you and them make Vaishnavism like a sectarian Philosophy.

 

My dear ignoramus, Vaishnavism doesn't mean worship of a random god gives moksha. If so, one would consider Shaivism as universal bhakti as well.

 

Vaishnavism has clearly described what its tenets are:

 

1) Vishnu is Brahman. Not Shiva, Agni, Indra, etc.

 

2) Wise people avoid deva worship (and nastikas like Christians/Muslims) and worship Hari alone.

 

3) True spirituality is in realising that only worship of Hari should be done, and no other path is recommended by the Lord.

 

Amlesh, first of all, understand the basic tenets of Vaishnavism.

 

 

Open your eyes dude. And when did I say that when you pray to Popeye, Bugs Bunny, Loulou McWolf you become Vaishnava. You become Vaishnava when you pray to Hari, but Jesus's is not bad in terms of morality, and if followed perfectly will some day or the other lead to Vaishnavism.

 

Mahavira the Jain is more 'moral' than Jesus or even Vaishnavas. Doesn't mean Jainism someday leads to Vaishnavism.

 

The devotion of Christians, even if done unselfishly, will only lead to a cleansing of karmas. It will not evoke the love of the Lord.

 

A better birth only will result. Yes, they will become Vaishnavas someday, but that will only be due to their conduct, and not due to their religion. A Buddhist or a Jain who remains a moral person, will also have an equal chance of a Vaishnava birth.

 

Vishnu, being impartial, fulfills the wishes of even Shaivas. But since Shaivas do not acknowledge Him, He also does not share a close relationship with them.

 

Of Course, a Shaivite or Christian may claim to have had some experience of 'love' or some 'white light', etc. Like Bija's hallucinations. But the strength of Vedanta is this - that it has left nothing unexplained. Thomas Aquinas was wondering as to whether it is appropriate to inquire about knowledge beyond the Bible, whether it was allowed by God. That is because semitic religions are man made and not eternal.

 

But the Veda has all the answers. Scripture acknowledges that experiences may occur even without jnana. And clarifies that these experiences are either maya, or just given by the Lord to keep the jiva's faith steady. It has already been explained that even if a faith is tamasic, the Lord keeps the jiva's faith in that tamasic religion steady.

 

Vedanta clarifies that true, genuine experience, can be verified only when an individual follows the laws laid down by Sri Hari. Hallucinations do not count here. In fact, a person who says he had an experience of Krishna may also have only seen maya, and nothing more, if he hadn't adhered to Vaishnavism!!

 

So, shut up about all paths being authentic. Religions arise due to the rajasic or tamasic modes of the Jivas. His faith, therefore, is only instrumental in washing away the rajas or tamas. Such types of bhakti, therefore, even if done in spirit of surrender, is not proper or acceptable as it is not done with jnana.

 

 

And please don't associate me with Iskcon, My Guru is Srila Prabhupad and Krishna only, that's all.

 

Dude, forget ISKCON, you don't even have an association with Vaishnavism. No knowledge of what Vaishnavism is, and all you can prattle about is how the Vedas are 'bookish knowledge' to be ignored. Terrific, just ignore the very foundation of Vaishnavism tha gives credibility to our faith.