Was Jesus' Resurrection a Sequel?

[Dark Warrior]

 

Tamaso(Dark) ma Jyortir Gamaya (light), this prayer was specially composed for you.

 

I hope someday you'll become Light Warrior.

 

Idiot, that was not composed. The Veda is 'apaurusheya' and hence, that mantra is unauthored.

 

Don't even know that simple fact? I am amazed that you are actually able to quote something that isn't ripped off from Bhaktivinoda Thakura's works.

 

And that mantra is present to remind people that Tamas is simply anything that isn't worship/knowledge of brahman, ie, Vishnu. Like Christianity.

 

Jyotir (Light) is worship of Hari, without meandering to other paths.

 

EDIT: Bija's post, that one can 'realise' one's 'ishta deva' is very significant, because the whole concept of 'ishta deva' is not even accepted by Vaishnavism. So, while the likes of Bija and Amlesh can follow their own paths/faiths/hallucinations, they cannot call it Vaishnavism, because it is against the most basic rules of Vaishnavism. The very word signifies eka bhakti to Hari.

[gHari]

Whence comes faith?

 

Whence comes faith in Gauranga?

 

Whence comes faith in Christ?

 

Can fossils change faith?

[gHari]

Whence come such foul creatures in the name of Vaisnavism?

 

No devotion, just mental egoism - empty dark lifeless words from an empty dark lifeless heart. Spare us the pain.

[bija]

 

Bija's post, that one can 'realise' one's 'ishta deva' is very significant, because the whole concept of 'ishta deva' is not even accepted by Vaishnavism. So, while the likes of Bija and Amlesh can follow their own paths/faiths/hallucinations, they cannot call it Vaishnavism, because it is against the most basic rules of Vaishnavism. The very word signifies eka bhakti to Hari. post by dark

 

Here is the context I was referring to in regards to ishta deva. Prahlada's ishta deva was Lord Nrshnga for example.

 

 

This is the way of bhakti yoga - each needs to find that light and his own ishta-deva.

 

I agree ancient...dark warrior makes many good points..it has been excellent reading his posts. But he makes one huge mistake...if we adore Krsna we adore his servants. If we can raise our vision - all are his servants, and worthy of respect. post by bija

Caitanya Caritamrta written by the great Vaisnava Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami

 

 

Madhya8.274

TEXT 274

sthāvara-jaṅgama dekhe, nā dekhe tāra mūrti

sarvatra haya nija iṣṭa-deva-sphūrti

 

 

SYNONYMS

sthāvara-jaṅgama—movable and inert; dekhe—he sees; nā—not; dekhe—sees; tāra—its; mūrti—form; sarvatra—everywhere; haya—there is; nija—his own; iṣṭa-deva—worshipable Lord; sphūrti—manifestation.

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

“The mahā-bhāgavata, the advanced devotee, certainly sees everything mobile and immobile, but he does not exactly see their forms. Rather, everywhere he immediately sees manifest the form of the Supreme Lord.”

 

PURPORT

Due to his deep ecstatic love for Kṛṣṇa, the mahā-bhāgavata sees Kṛṣṇa everywhere and nothing else. This is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā (5.38): premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti.

As soon as a devotee sees something—be it movable or inert—he immediately remembers Kṛṣṇa. An advanced devotee is advanced in knowledge. This knowledge is very natural to a devotee, for he has already read in the Bhagavad-gītā how to awaken Kṛṣṇa consciousness. According to Lord Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā (7.8):

raso ’ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ

praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu śabdaḥ khe pauruṣaṁ nṛṣu

 

 

“O son of Kuntī [Arjuna], I am the taste of water, the light of the sun and the moon, the syllable oṁ in the Vedic mantras; I am the sound in ether and ability in man.”

Thus when a devotee drinks water or any other liquid, he immediately remembers Kṛṣṇa. For a devotee there is no difficulty in awakening Kṛṣṇa consciousness twenty-four hours a day. Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore says here:

sthāvara jaṅgama dekhe nā dekhe tāra mūrti

sarvatra haya nija iṣṭa-deva-sphūrti

 

 

A saintly person, an advanced devotee, sees Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours a day and nothing else. As far as movable and inert things are concerned, a devotee sees them all as transformations of Kṛṣṇa’s energy. As Lord Kṛṣṇa states in the Bhagavad-gītā (7.4):

bhūmir āpo ’nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca

ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā

 

 

“Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego—all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.”

Actually nothing is separate from Kṛṣṇa. When a devotee sees a tree, he knows that the tree is a combination of two energies—material and spiritual. The inferior energy, which is material, forms the body of the tree; however, within the tree is the living entity, the spiritual spark, which is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. This is the superior energy of Kṛṣṇa within this world. Whatever living thing we see is simply a combination of these two energies. When an advanced devotee thinks of these energies, he immediately understands that they are manifestations of the Supreme Lord. As soon as we see the sun rise in the morning, we arise and set about doing our morning duties. Similarly, as soon as a devotee sees the energy of the Lord, he immediately remembers Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. This is explained in this verse: sarvatra haya nija iṣṭa-deva-sphūrti.

A devotee who has purified his existence through devotional service sees only Kṛṣṇa in every step of life. This is also explained in the next verse, which is a quotation from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (11.2.45).

 

[bija]

 

1. To what extent are the people able to understand and accept Lord Gauranga directly? Isnt it somehow necessary to preach to them first about Shri Shri Radha-Krishna, so that they can access the, as already mentioned above, confidential and esoteric subject matter of Lord Gauranga?

 

Answer by Srila Gurudeva:

A1. There are many souls who are devotees of Lord Ramachandra or Lord Nrisinghadeva in this world. Have they come to worship Lord Rama or Lord Nrisingha by first understanding the Shri Shri Radha Krishna Tattva? No, most of them have directly taken up the worship of Their ishta-deva. Similarly even though Lord Gauranga is Shri Shri Radha-Krishna Himself, people can directly be told about Lord Gauranga and His Holy Names as He is the independent Personality of Godhead and He was His own set of Holy Names, Pastimes, Associates and Abodes. In fact by first knowing about Him and chanting His Holy Names, people can actually approach Shri Shri Radha Krishna with proper consciousness and qualification. There are so many bogus "Gods" in this world who are blindly and directly worshiped by millions of people. I don't think these followers have been told about Shri Shri Radha Krishna before they accepted the worship of these so-called Gods. So why can't they be directly told about the real, bonafide and unquestionable Supreme Lords Nityananda Gauranga and Their Holy Names, Pastimes and Abodes? So Nityananda-Gauranga-Nama-Guna-Lila-Dhama preaching is not dependant on anything else and it has nothing to do with any religion of this world. People can stay in their own religions, countries, faith and position and still chant the Holy Names of Nityananda, Gauranga and Hare Krishna and engage in the performance of Naam Yoga and Bhakti Yoga. For example, Jagai and Madhai were the most fallen and sinful before and they were delivered directly by Lords Nityananda-Gauranga. Jagai and Madhai did not know anything about Shri Shri Radha Krishna's glories but they directly got the mercy of Lords Nityananda Gauranga and first became Their devotees and then devotees of Shri Shri Radha Krishna.

 

[Dark Warrior]

 

Here is the context I was referring to in regards to ishta deva. Prahlada's ishta deva was Lord Nrshnga for example

 

I knew you would be back. No substance, yet a lot of arguments.

 

Narasimha is Vishnu. Worship of any avatar of Vishnu is Vaishnavism. I hope you have enough knowledge to realise that Narasimha is Krishna?

 

'Ista Deva' is a concept introduced by Neovedantins, that one can gain equal spiritual experience by adopting worship of either Vishnu, Shiva, Allah, Jesus, Jehovah, Flying Spaghetti Monster and yet get moksha. In short, all paths are valid. According to Neovedantins, Vedas are not as important as spiritual experience.

 

A Vaishnava' worship is restricted to avatars of Vishnu and to Vishnu's bhagavatas. There is no proof that Jesus was a bhagavata, and if he had regarded any other deva or deity as supreme, that makes him a nastika.

 

If you think a person gains spiritual merit by worshipping Jesus or even respecting him as a 'servant of Vishnu', that falls into the neovedantic category and is not Vaishnavism.

[Dark Warrior]

Secondly, for the last time, stop quoting Gaudiya Specific literature.

 

A true devotee sees Krishna everywhere. In ants, spiders, cockroaches, Jesus, Mohammed, Atheists, etc. But that doesn't mean we respect all ants, spiders, cockroaches, atheists, Jesus and Mohammed as 'pure devotees'. A pure devotee is one who worships Hari alone.

 

Next time, try quoting something from 4 Vedas, Ithihasas, Puranas, etc. A wealth of literature is available, other than Thakura's works.

[bija]

 

Similarly, as soon as a devotee sees the energy of the Lord, he immediately remembers Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. This is explained in this verse: sarvatra haya nija iṣṭa-deva-sphūrti.

A devotee who has purified his existence through devotional service sees only Kṛṣṇa in every step of life. This is also explained in the next verse, which is a quotation from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (11.2.45). Srila Prabhupada quoted by bija

 

 

 

CC Madhya8.275 TEXT 275

sarva-bhūteṣu yaḥ paśyed

bhagavad-bhāvam ātmanaḥ

bhūtāni bhagavaty ātmany

eṣa bhāgavatottamaḥ

 

SYNONYMS

sarva-bhūteṣu—in all objects (in matter, spirit and combinations of matter and spirit); yaḥ—anyone who; paśyet—sees; bhagavat-bhāvam—the ability to be engaged in the service of the Lord; ātmanaḥ—of the supreme spirit soul or the Transcendence beyond the material conception of life; bhūtāni—all beings; bhagavati—in the Supreme Personality of Godhead; ātmani—the basic principle of all existence; eṣaḥ—this; bhāgavata-uttamaḥ—a person advanced in devotional service.

 

TRANSLATION

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu continued, “‘A person advanced in devotional service sees within everything the soul of souls, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Consequently he always sees the form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the cause of all causes and understands that all things are situated in Him.’

 

[Dark Warrior]

 

People can stay in their own religions, countries, faith and position and still chant the Holy Names of Nityananda, Gauranga and Hare Krishna and engage in the performance of Naam Yoga and Bhakti Yoga.

 

I only said Bharatavarsha is moksha bhumi. Doesn't mean there are no devotees in America.

 

Even an american devotee is a 'pure devotee' only if he believes in Lord Krishna, and not Jesus, Shiva, Allah, etc.

[Dark Warrior]

 

Madhya8.275

TEXT 275

sarva-bhūteṣu yaḥ paśyed

bhagavad-bhāvam ātmanaḥ

bhūtāni bhagavaty ātmany

eṣa bhāgavatottamaḥ

SYNONYMS

sarva-bhūteṣu—in all objects (in matter, spirit and combinations of matter and spirit); yaḥ—anyone who; paśyet—sees; bhagavat-bhāvam—the ability to be engaged in the service of the Lord; ātmanaḥ—of the supreme spirit soul or the Transcendence beyond the material conception of life; bhūtāni—all beings; bhagavati—in the Supreme Personality of Godhead; ātmani—the basic principle of all existence; eṣaḥ—this; bhāgavata-uttamaḥ—a person advanced in devotional service.

TRANSLATION

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu continued, “‘A person advanced in devotional service sees within everything the soul of souls, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Consequently he always sees the form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the cause of all causes and understands that all things are situated in Him.’

 

Yeah, everyone understands that even a blade of grass does not function without Krishna. Thus, one ceases to contemplate on the grass, and focuses on Krishna.

 

One understands that spurious faiths also, are a product of Krishna's maya, and hence, abandons them in favor of Krishna.

 

Bija, will you ever get out of Srila Prabhupada's and Thakura's translations? Quoting Gaudiya literature is not equivalent to quoting Vedas. In any case, keep revealing your ignorance.

[bija]

 

'Ista Deva' is a concept introduced by Neovedantins, that one can gain equal spiritual experience by adopting worship of either Vishnu, Shiva, Allah, Jesus, Jehovah, Flying Spaghetti Monster and yet get moksha. In short, all paths are valid. According to Neovedantins, Vedas are not as important as spiritual experience. by dark

That is your interpretation of ishta and your attempt to label me 'neo'.

 

Here is my interpretation of ishta previously quoted:

 

 

Quote:

Caitanya Caritamrta written by the great Vaisnava Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami

 

 

Madhya8.274

TEXT 274

sthāvara-jaṅgama dekhe, nā dekhe tāra mūrti

sarvatra haya nija iṣṭa-deva-sphūrti

 

 

SYNONYMS

sthāvara-jaṅgama—movable and inert; dekhe—he sees; nā—not; dekhe—sees; tāra—its; mūrti—form; sarvatra—everywhere; haya—there is; nija—his own; iṣṭa-deva—worshipable Lord; sphūrti—manifestation.

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

“The mahā-bhāgavata, the advanced devotee, certainly sees everything mobile and immobile, but he does not exactly see their forms. Rather, everywhere he immediately sees manifest the form of the Supreme Lord.”

 

PURPORT

Due to his deep ecstatic love for Kṛṣṇa, the mahā-bhāgavata sees Kṛṣṇa everywhere and nothing else. This is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā (5.38): premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti.

As soon as a devotee sees something—be it movable or inert—he immediately remembers Kṛṣṇa. An advanced devotee is advanced in knowledge. This knowledge is very natural to a devotee, for he has already read in the Bhagavad-gītā how to awaken Kṛṣṇa consciousness. According to Lord Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā (7.8):

raso ’ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ

praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu śabdaḥ khe pauruṣaṁ nṛṣu

 

 

“O son of Kuntī [Arjuna], I am the taste of water, the light of the sun and the moon, the syllable oṁ in the Vedic mantras; I am the sound in ether and ability in man.”

Thus when a devotee drinks water or any other liquid, he immediately remembers Kṛṣṇa. For a devotee there is no difficulty in awakening Kṛṣṇa consciousness twenty-four hours a day. Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore says here:

sthāvara jaṅgama dekhe nā dekhe tāra mūrti

sarvatra haya nija iṣṭa-deva-sphūrti

 

 

A saintly person, an advanced devotee, sees Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours a day and nothing else. As far as movable and inert things are concerned, a devotee sees them all as transformations of Kṛṣṇa’s energy. As Lord Kṛṣṇa states in the Bhagavad-gītā (7.4):

bhūmir āpo ’nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca

ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā

 

 

“Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego—all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.”

Actually nothing is separate from Kṛṣṇa. When a devotee sees a tree, he knows that the tree is a combination of two energies—material and spiritual. The inferior energy, which is material, forms the body of the tree; however, within the tree is the living entity, the spiritual spark, which is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. This is the superior energy of Kṛṣṇa within this world. Whatever living thing we see is simply a combination of these two energies. When an advanced devotee thinks of these energies, he immediately understands that they are manifestations of the Supreme Lord. As soon as we see the sun rise in the morning, we arise and set about doing our morning duties. Similarly, as soon as a devotee sees the energy of the Lord, he immediately remembers Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. This is explained in this verse: sarvatra haya nija iṣṭa-deva-sphūrti.

A devotee who has purified his existence through devotional service sees only Kṛṣṇa in every step of life. This is also explained in the next verse, which is a quotation from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (11.2.45).

[Dark Warrior]

Bija's attempt to explain away the Vedic injunctions of abandoning other faiths is this - Just because a person should see Krishna everywhere, he should see Krishna in Jesus, hence, he should respect Jesus.

 

For a person who claims to have so many personal experiences, Bija fails miserably in understanding what this means.

 

The verses quoted simply mean, one should never think that the distinctions of the body are permanent. One should be equal minded and see Vishnu/Krishna as the indweller of all living entities like Ants, Frogs, animals and Jesus. This way, one is assured of the fact that every living entity deserves respect and one shouldn't be considered superior to another.

 

Hence, all those verses simply say, recognise that all beings are essentially atman in their fundamental nature, devoted to Vishnu. Hence, worship Vishnu alone.

 

Kapish? A kindergarten would understand it.

[bija]

 

Bija, will you ever get out of Srila Prabhupada's and Thakura's translations? by dark

 

Never! Ishta Guru's for eternity...even in eternal lila!

 

Please do not commit vaisnava aparadha. I will leave now..y.s!

[Dark Warrior]

 

“The mahā-bhāgavata, the advanced devotee, certainly sees everything mobile and immobile, but he does not exactly see their forms. Rather, everywhere he immediately sees manifest the form of the Supreme Lord.”

 

Read my earlier post. I explained what it means. You are a neovedantin, not a Vaishnava, if you think this means anyone can worship any form.

 

The Upanishads contain many injunctions such as 'Worship Brahman within the Sun', 'Worship Brahman as the indweller of Indra', 'Worship Brahman as the ground of all being'.

 

This simply means, one should go beyond the external distinctions and see Hari anywhere.

 

So, simply put, the body of Jesus, Shiva, Myself, yours, ants, frogs, etc. are temporary and immaterial. One should understand that every atman has an equal chance of spiritual progress and that Vishnu is the indweller of all.

 

What does equal chance mean? It means, every atman has the right to recognise that they are all equal in status and have equal chance to worship Vishnu. It does not mean, 'respect Jesus because he is a servant by his innate nature'. For that matter, an ant and an asura are also servants of vishnu by their innate nature.

 

Respect should only be given when the jiva recognises that Vishnu is the ultimate principle behind all.

[Dark Warrior]

 

Never! Ishta Guru's for eternity...even in eternal lila!

 

Please do not commit vaisnava aparadha. I will leave now..y.s!

 

Your ignorance is once again revealed. You think challenging a guru's teachings is 'aparadha'?

 

There are very fundamental differences between any 2 Vaishnava schools. While both schools will maintain respect for each other because they are both Vaishnavas, argument is encouraged.

 

Now, don't think I am arguing against Gaudiya Vaishnavism here. The point is, even Gaudiyas do not think the way you and Amlesh do. Raghu is a Gaudiya Vaishnava and he started this thread.

 

However, I find, in Thakura's case, he has deviated from Vaishnavism altogether. his works do not contain an ounce of Vaishnavite philosophy. It is simply his own ideas. I do think Srila Prabhupada was a Vaishnava acharya because he had more bhakti and less speculation, unlike Thakura.

 

Bija, this isn't Gaudiya vs. Sri Vaishnavism. This is Vaishnavism vs. Neovedanta. You are by nature, a Neovedantin. Go to a Vivekananda site and see how his views resonate with yours. The only difference is that you do not accept advaita.

[bija]

 

Nityananda! Gauranga! Hare Krishna!

Dear Gurudeva, all glories to you!

I have question about ista-devata. I heard that ista devata is specific form of Lord or Deity that is the object of one’s attention and devotion. Does ista devata refer only to visnu tattva? Does every jiva have particular ista-devata and how to know who is her or his ista-devata? How this concept is related to Nityananda – Gauranga Naam devotees? I am not familiar with this concept so I am humbly asking you for some explanation.

Thank you very much.

Nityananda! Gauranga! Hare Krishna!

 

answer by Gurudeva;

Nityananda! Gauranga! Hare Krishna! Jaya Guru Parampara! :pranams: Pranams! and :bless: Blessings! Yes Prabhu, Ishta deva is one's Worshipable Diety and generally only one of the Vishnu Tattva forms can be one's Ishtadeva since all others like demigods etc. are not eternal forms.

 

For those souls who have an eternal relation with the Lord in any of the four mellows in Goloka, Lord Nityananda is the Ishtadeva as it is only He who grants us access to these mellows with Lord Gauranga Krishna. For those souls who have an eternal relation with the Lord in madhurya rasa or as a lover, Lord Gauranga is the Ishtadeva for those souls though it is only by the mercy of Lord Nityananda (radhika-mantra do) that they can achive this. For those souls, who do not have a spiritual form in the eternal Navadvipa but only in the eternal Vraja, Lord Yashodanandana Krishna is the Ishtadeva for them. For those souls who have an eternal relation with Lord Krishna in Dvaraka, Lord Vasudeva Krishna is the Ishtadeva for them. For those souls who have an eternal relation with Lord Ramachandra in Ayodhya, Lord Rama is their Ishtadeva. For those souls who have an eternal relation with Lord Nrisinghadeva, Lord Nrisinghadeva, in His eternal 4-handed form, is their Ishtadeva. For those souls have have an eternal relation with Lord Vishnu is any one of His below described 24 forms in Their respective Vaikuntha planets, He is the Ishtadeva for them and so on..

 

From Shri Chaitanya Charitamrita and Teachings of Lord Chaitanya:

By Shrila Krishnadasa Kaviraja Goswa and translated by Shrila Prabhupada

 

"In the Siddhartha-samhita, there is a description of the twenty-four forms of Vishnu, and these forms are named according to the position of the symbolic representations in Their four hands. When one describes the positions of objects in the hands of the Vishnu murti, one should begin with the lower right hand then move to the upper right hand, upper left hand and, finally, to the lower left hand. In this way, Vasudeva may be described as being represented by mace, conch shell, disc and lotus flower. Sankarsana is represented by mace, conch shell, lotus flower and disc. Similarly, Pradyumna is represented by disc, conch shell, mace and lotus flower. Aniruddha is represented by disc, mace, conch shell and lotus flower. In the spiritual sky the representations of Narayana are twenty in number and are described as follows: Shri Kesava (flower, conch shell, disc, mace), Narayana (conch, flower, mace and disc), Shri Madhava (mace, disc, conch and flower), Shri Govinda (disc, mace, flower and conch), Vishnu-murti (mace, flower, conch and disc), Madhusudana (disc, conch, flower and mace), Trivikrama (flower, mace, disc and shell), Shri Vamana (conch, disc, mace and flower), Shridhara (flower, disc, mace and shell), Hrsikesa (mace, disc, flower and conch), Padmanabha (shell, flower, disc and mace), Damodara (flower, disc, mace and shell), Purusottama (disc, flower, shell and mace), Acyuta (mace, flower, disc and shell), Nrsimha (disc, flower, mace and shell), Janardana (flower, disc, shell and mace), Shri Hari (shell, disc, flower and mace), Shri Krishna (shell, mace, flower and disc), Adhoksaja (flower, mace, shell and disc), and Upendra (shell, mace, disc and flower)."

 

As one advances in Naam bhajan, gradually the knowledge about and attraction towards one's worshipable Ishtadeva will spontaneously arise in our heart as the Naam will show us everything. Thankyou.

[bija]

 

Bija, this isn't Gaudiya vs. Sri Vaishnavism. by dark

Ofcourse Prabhu.

 

 

However, I find, in Thakura's case, he has deviated from Vaishnavism altogether. his works do not contain an ounce of Vaishnavite philosophy.by dark

Have you read all his books?

 

click here for them all

 

good day dark...cyou tommorrow!

[Dark Warrior]

And your point of quoting this? I have explained it.

 

 

Ishta deva is one's Worshipable Diety and generally only one of the Vishnu Tattva forms can be one's Ishtadeva since all others like demigods etc. are not eternal forms.

 

There you go. By your own guru's words. Considering Shiva, Jesus, Allah as 'Ishta Deva' is not Vaishnavism. That is what I am saying.

 

So, exactly what are you getting at?

[Dark Warrior]

 

Have you read all his book?

 

I have read enough to know exactly what he followed.

 

Anyone who says that temple worship and tilakas are 'external symbols' is violating the most basic tenets of Vedanta and Vaishnavism.

 

In any case, rather than read some guru's opinions, I find it more productive to actually read what Vedas say.

 

Keep rambling on. I want to know exactly what Jesus has to do with all the nonsense you have posted. If you think one should worship Jesus because we should see Krishna everywhere, I have explained that.

[Dark Warrior]

Thakura's bhakti to Sri Chaitanya, and even his bhakti to Krishna does not make him Vaishnava. For that matter, a person may worship Krishna as supreme, along with Shiva, but he doesn't become a Vaishnava.

 

Vaishnavas never acknowledge that tilakas are sectarian or external symbols, nor do they say one must worship devas (Thakura wasn't against deva worship).

[bija]

 

This is Vaishnavism vs. Neovedanta. You are by nature, a Neovedantin. Go to a Vivekananda site and see how his views resonate with yours. by dark

 

Yes dark, in the past I have been influenced by such people (as a teen and early twenties)...in due course Naam Prabhu will clear these klesa from my subtle body. Be patient. Read carefully all the above quotes...this is not the philosophy of Vivekananda.

 

My gurudeva, Srila Prabhupada etc have all accepted that Mohammed and Jesus Christ were empowered souls for a specific purpose. Therefore I accept. It is simple really.

[Dark Warrior]

 

Yes dark, in the past I have been influenced by such people (as a teen and early twenties)...in due course Naam Prabhu will clear these klesa from my subtle body. Be patient. Read carefully all the above quotes...this is not the philosophy of Vivekananda.

 

Nama of Vishnu alone is useful. That is because the Vedas have clearly explained the significance behind names like Narayana, Vasudeva, Vishnu, Krishna, etc.

 

Ever read Vishnu Sahasranama? Names like Christ and Allah have no spiritual effect.

 

There are many details explaining the meaning of the word 'Narayana' itself. The Vedas are apaurusheya and hence, the Narayana nama is also apaurusheya. It indicates the rupa, svarupa and gunas of the Lord in one go.

 

 

My gurudeva, Srila Prabhupada etc have all accepted that Mohammed and Jesus Christ were empowered souls for a specific purpose. Therefore I accept. It is simple really.

 

That is Christian thinking. Someone says he had a personal experience, so whatever he says is true.

 

Sorry, Vedanta relies on Veda. Sri Ramanuja himself asks people to read the Vedas rather than following his bhashyas blindly.

[bija]

 

Anyone who says that temple worship and tilakas are 'external symbols' is violating the most basic tenets of Vedanta and Vaishnavism. by dark

He wrote these words in the intro to Sri Krsna Samhita. Guys like cbrahma take it as gospel, because of their lack of study and surrender to a teacher.

 

Thakura wrote that book to an educated english influenced indian people. It is often taken in the wrong context by some. This is no example.

 

Please read his books....you will understand. Disregard those on this forum who say I am wrong about Sri krsna Samhita...directly from the lips of Gurudeva I heard this. A forehead without tilaka is like a graveyard according to Sri Caitanya...he wished not to look at such a place.

 

Sri Krsna Samhita is a unique book for a specific audience (generally)...this is a poor example. Please use caution in this reagrd on this forum.

 

I really have to go now...cyou tommorrow (if you can bare me:() bye!

 

I understand you mean no offence. Your faith is fixed and I respect that alot dark. Srila Gurudeva allows me to come to Audarya Fellowship on one condition - I never hear criticism of Srila Bhaktivinoda and others dear to our heart. Saying he is not a vaisnava (by evidence gleaned from this forum - which is not substantial) is something I will look over. Read his books.

 

Here is a great book by him (pure vaisnava philosophy) .... Kalyana Kalpataru - by Bhaktivinoda

[Dark Warrior]

And one more thing - Nama sankirtan is also part of Vivekananda's philosophy. If you had a knowledge of Advaita or Neovedanta, you would know that Saguna Brahman worship needs bhakti.

[Dark Warrior]

 

He wrote these words in the intro to Sri Krsna Samhita. Guys like cbrahma take it as gospel, because of their lack of study and surrender to a teacher.

 

Thakura wrote that book to an educated english influenced indian people. It is often taken in the wrong context by some. This is no example.

 

And what about the Sri Chaitanya Upanishad, which is a forgery? And the Navadvipa Dhama mahatmya, where apparently every Vaishnava acharya cries when he sees Sri Chaitanya.

 

If you look at the Shiva is a demigod thread, someone has posted that Thakura mentioned worship of other devas is not wrong and every Vaishnava must do it. Basically against Vaishnavism.

 

 

Please read his books....you will understand. Disregard those on this forum who say I am wrong about Sri krsna Samhita...directly from the lips of Gurudeva I heard this. A forehead without tilaka is like a graveyard according to Sri Caitanya...he wished not to look at such a place.

 

Sri Chaitanya is a parama-bhagavata, or a 'pure devotee'. Debate is not about him, because I know his bhakti was great. Debate is whether Thakura was a Vaishnava, or simply someone who worshipped Sri Chaitanya blindly.

 

 

Srila Gurudeva allows me to come to Audarya Fellowship on one condition - I never hear criticism of Srila Bhaktivinoda and others dear to our heart. Saying he is not a vaisnava (by evidence gleaned from this forum - which is not substantial) is something I will look over. Read his books.

 

Since this is a forum dominated by disciples of Bhaktivinoda, I shall say no more about him. I, of course, respect your opinions. I am merely going by the tried and tested method of judgement based on tradition.

 

It isn't aparadha to question the opinions of gurus. The main reason why many people find this offensive is because of the christian conditioning that everything has to be accepted by faith, or by the 'personal experience' of the person. Vedanta is often hailed to be a freedom allowing tradition...and the extent of this freedom stretches to inquiry of even a guru's status.

 

The topic of this thread was to discuss if Jesus has any relevance to Vaishnavism. Saying that Sri Thakura or Srila Prabhupada called him an avatar is not sufficient. Jesus was not a Vaishnava, and no sincere Vaishnava ever worships him or respects him as a devotee of Vishnu.