About the name Hindu

[bhaktajan]

Wait Wati Wait!

 

Shvu proves the point:

. . . In India if one person tells another, “You must do this,” the other party may say, “What do you mean? Is this a Vedic injunction, that I have to follow you without any argument?” . . .

.............................................................................

Originally Posted by shvu

examples revolving around stool….

The Guru must teach approiate to the level of the students ability to understand.

 

Do not fret Shvu--Your time will come. There is plenty of time to spare.

100 Kaplas can go by in a flash, and before you know it, your ready to start with a clean slate.

 

Think positive.

[shvu]

 

antavat tu phalam tesam

tad bhavaty alpa-medhasam

devan deva-yajo yanti

mad-bhakta yanti mam api - BG 7.23

 

As we can see in reality, this verse is flawed. There are people who worship other Gods without asking for material gains and there are people who worship Krishna asking for better grades or curing cancer. Obviously the latter category, though worshipping Krishna would qualify as "alpa medhas" per BG 7.23 and the former category would not.

[bhaktajan]

 

 

Bg 7.23

 

 

 

 

antavat tu phalaà teñäà

 

 

 

 

tad bhavaty alpa-medhasäm

 

 

 

 

devän deva-yajo yänti

 

 

 

 

mad-bhaktä yänti mäm api

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

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BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 65pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=86 height=17></TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=80>anta-vat;</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 70pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=93 x:str="tu; ">tu; </TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 47pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=63 x:str="phalam; ">phalam; </TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 41pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=54 x:str="teñäm; ">teñäm; </TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 15pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=20>/</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 33pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=44 x:str="tat; ">tat; </TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 53pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=71 x:str="bhavati; ">bhavati; </TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 103pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-ignore: colspan" width=137 colSpan=2>alpa-medhasäm;</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 24pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=32></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">perishable;</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">but</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">fruit</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">their</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">/</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">that</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">becomes</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-ignore: colspan" colSpan=3>of those of small intelligence;</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17></TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">devän;</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:str="deva-yajaù; ">deva-yajaù; </TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:str="yänti; ">yänti; </TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">/</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:str="mat; ">mat; </TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">bhaktäù;</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:str="yänti; ">yänti; </TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">mäm;</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">api.</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:str="to the ">to the </TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:str="worshipers of ">worshipers of </TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">go;</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">/</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:str="My; ">My; </TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:str="devotees; ">devotees; </TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:str="go; ">go; </TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:str="to Me; ">to Me; </TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">also.</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">demigods;</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">demigods;</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

 

anta-vat-perishable; tu-but; phalam-fruit; teñäm-their; / tat-that; bhavati-becomes; alpa-medhasäm-of those of small intelligence;

devän-to the demigods; deva-yajaù-the worshipers of the demigods; yänti-go; / mat-My; bhaktäù-devotees; yänti-go; mäm-to Me; api-also.

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

 

Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary.

Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.

.........................................................................................................................

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, and sanskrit scholars . . .

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

 

 

 

As we can see in reality, this verse is flawed. There are people who worship other Gods without asking for material gains and there are people who worship Krishna asking for better grades or curing cancer. Obviously the latter category, though worshipping Krishna would qualify as "alpa medhas" per BG 7.23 and the former category would not.

 

 

Precisely, and the translation is certainly flawed, yet i dont expect them to understand, for them as it is can not be wrong.

 

Repeat a lie enough time and people will believe it, Vedic gods have become half God, although no such concept in Vedas. Devas have become pariah. Printing and selling books (Shastra ) are a sign of spiritual progress, forget about following dharma(that would be walking on a double edge sword) anything goes in the name of Krishna, we will make lots of money fleecing those ignorant Hindus, anyone for that gravy train ? oh yes sounds good to me but then the reality dawns on me I will have to pay for it in the end.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Ganeshprasad]

Praam bhaktajan

 

Let me try and explain

 

anta-vat-perishable; tu-but; phalam-fruit; teñäm-their; / tat-that; bhavati-becomes; alpa-medhasäm-of those of small intelligence;

 

Do you see the word Deva or worship in this two line? I certainly can not

 

How do you get Men of small intelligence worship the demigods? Now see the translation I provide

 

Such (material) gains of these less intelligent human beings are temporary.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[bhaktajan]

Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad

 

There is no word 'worship and Deva' in the first two lines.

 

But it is the second line--so that would signify

that you read right to left?

Correct?

 

.............................................................

For an expert grammerian you sure do know how to punctuate other's flaws.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

 

 

Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad

 

There is no word 'worship and Deva' in the first two lines.

 

But it is the second line--so that would signify

that you read right to left?

Correct?

 

.............................................................

For an expert grammerian you sure do know how to punctuate other's flaws.

 

reading from right to left would make me an Arab, that i am not nor am i an expert in grammar but i have read enough to smell a rat.

 

and counting from bottom it is the second line, good i learnt a new technique

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[bhaktajan]

 

Do you see the word Deva or worship in this two line?

I certainly can not . . .

 

 

 

—Now here this!, Now here this!—

 

Your postulations are sophomoric.

Why would you presume that those who follow A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's translations are uneducated?

You are wrongly considering the sentiments of a societal renouncer with those who seek to lead society.

Why are you assuming the position of pariah even before the Standard of Measurement is established?

That tells me you are insincere, with an emphasis on 'in sin'.

I went to Grammer school --so I learned the grammer of many Latin-Romance Languages, plus Japanese, Arabic--and what you are pointing out appears to presume I am much much less educated than your supposition would require to astond me with some revelation.

 

I do read your post--And I wasn't born yesterday, Kumar-ji.

I am not uneducated nor gullible nor slow witted.

 

I'm one righteous man. And quess what? I know it. It humbles me and it also emboldens me.

 

I need intellectual stimulation.

 

If I have to wade through your reverse upside-down diametrically-opposed inside-out double-speaking diatribe then you are simply

fooling with my sensiblities.

 

Ergo, you are not a scholar and You know it.

 

Please seek a hobby that wont deplete all your remaining good karma.

 

If I ask your opinion, that should be an Honor for you.

 

 

If I don't ask for your opinion--that's because I have no need for it, Boss.

 

I know who my daddy is. I know who 'The Man' is.

 

If you mis-speak one time while knowing you are out of your league -- you will be called to attest your ignorance among those who will have no vested interest in you.

 

 

—That is all.—

 

 

[Ashvatama]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

"Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet." (Bhagavad-Gita 7.23)

Having many deities on the altar (Lord Krishna and demigods) will be looked upon as diluting Krishna consciousness.

The aim of Srila Prabhupada’s movement is to help the fallen souls which includes helping most Indian 'Hindus' come out of ignorance by making them Krishna conscious above the idea of all of us being Hindu, American, Indian, Australian, Russian, European, Chinese African etc.

We are not these bodies and we don't belong in this material world .

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

 

 

Actually, he tried to help India right up until he was 69 years of age.

 

I see it in two ways, leaving India because the place was spiritually bankrupt, corrupt and filthy, by leaving India and getting help by coverting others abroard, passing on the batton and new responsibility of the true essence of the Vedas to them, because of India's failure to maintain the purity and cleanliness found with the true folloers of Vedic tradition.

 

So because of India's failure, the batton of responsibility was passed to the Americans and Europeans by His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

Then bringing his new coverts back to India to revive a spiritually bankrupt corrupt filithy place where people were still passing stool in the gutter and again begin to teach the Indians the proper Vedic 'clean' tradition.

 

Both well written and very true. I couldn't be bothered joining this debate. Prabhupada Bhativedanta sums it up, 'When the dogs bark, you don't bark with them'

[shvu]

 

Well written and very true.

Indeed!

 

 

I couldn't be bothered joining this debate. Prabhupada Bhativedanta sums it up, 'When the dogs bark, you don't bark with them'

 

Most number of posts on the thread by - Bhaktajan

 

Therefore, it follows Ashwatama compares Bhaktajan to a barking dog and hides behind the figleaf of "Prabhupada said so", which I believe is a Vaishnava aparadha for which you will roast in hell for years to come.

 

You made one single post on the thread and incurred some bad aparadha. You might as well have exercised some extra control & stayed away from this thread. But it is too late now.

 

Cheers

[Ashvatama]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>I couldn't be bothered joining this debate. Prabhupada Bhativedanta sums it up, 'When the dogs bark, you don't bark with them' </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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[gauragopala dasa]

I don't think theist wanted his thread to be hijacked

 

Anyway the batton may have been past to the West 40 years ago but if one attends an ISKCON Temple today in 2008, one will see that the batton of responsibilty has certainly been passed back to the Indian community.

 

I call this the second wave of devotees, so many Indian and visiting Students worshiping Lord Caitanya, Radha and Krsna and Jagannath Subhadra Balaram .

 

I told one Indian boy that now it is up his generation to get the young Western boys and girls to take time away from their X-Boxs, Play Stations, I-Pods, Cell phones, Plazma screens and computors and study the Srimad Bhagavatam and chant Hare Krishna.

 

Within 10 years there will be more Sannyasis and Gurus of Indian origin leading ISKCON than those of Western origin.

 

All glorious to the Indian community who have now taken the ISKCON batton and are becoming the new face of ISKCON all over the world.

 

All glorious to Srila Prabhupada!!

[Dark Warrior]

Wow, this thread has certainly degenerated...

 

Far be it for me to cause an argument, however, just a few points I'd like to clarify, for my own good:

 

1) Someone posted pramanas saying Gita encourages worship of Devas. Actually, no. The Gita only says that Sattvik people worship Devas. That is quite true. However, just like Tamas is a prison that binds you to samsara, Sattva Guna is a golden cage as well. Sattva Guna gets you good births, but not moksha.

 

To get moksha, one needs to be above the 3 modes. Achieved by Eka Bhakti to Vishnu. That is why Krishna says, 'Mam EKAM Saranam Vraja'. The 'Ekam' signifies, 'Him alone and no other'.

 

Worshipping Devas for material benefits and worshipping Krishna for material benefits is not the same. Even if you worship Bhagavan for material benefits, He will turn you to the path of bhakti soon. However, it would take longer with worshipping the Devas. Lord Krishna clearly says that people should worship Him for material benefits as well. Its better than going a roundabout way by worshipping Devas.

 

Those who worship Vishnu for material benefits are also better than those who worship Anya Devata for Moksha. Because, the former is acting according to Krishna's desire (4 types of devotees worship Me...) whereas the latter does not find sanction. Even the verse prescribing Yajna to Devas is seen in the light of Satapatha Brahmana which says that Yajna is Vishnu, and hence, Krishna clarifies that all Sacrifices to Devas should be done with this knowledge alone.

 

Draupadi surrendered to Govinda to protect her material body, Pandavas surrendered to get a Kingdom, Sugriva surrendered to Rama to beat Vali, Indra surrendered to Vishnu to get back his post (Vamana Avatara) etc. Hence, not all Vaishnavas are virtuous - but the Lord clearly says that rather than worshipping anya devata, even if you cannot remain detached, atleast worship Him for a car or a house, if you want.

 

He also makes a clear distinction, 'Those who worship Devas will reach the Devas, and My devotees will come to Me'. In another sloka, He clarifies that even the abode of Brahma is not free from disease or death. Hence, it is clear that even the abode of Brahma is not the state of moksha.

 

A mother loves a child who is with her all the time. A son or daughter who stays abroad is also loved by his/her mother, but the bond with the child who stays close to the mother is far greater.

 

This is just Vaishnavite theology. Not the topic of the thread, though.

 

However, do not turn this thread into another devas worshipper vs. Vaishnava debate.

 

2) Someone said that Krishna was Non-Vedic, and that worship of murtis is not in Vedas. However, Sri Ramanuja proved otherwise. There was once a dispute as to whether Lord Srinivasa of Tirupati was Shiva or Vishnu. Sri Ramanuja defeated Shaivites by showing that Lord Venkateswara is referenced in Rig Veda:

 

arAyikANE vikatE girim gaccha sadAnvE Sirim biTasya sattvabhih tE(a)bhishtvA chAtayAmasi

 

This mantra advises the chetana to go to the hill where the Lord has His consort on His chest. Sri Ramanuja identifies it as Lord Srinivasa and begins his Sri Bhashyam with a prayer to Him.

 

3) People often think that the Avatars of the Lord are concoctions that were later passed off as Vedic. Well, the 3 steps of Trivikrama have been referenced in the Vedas. There is a reference to Matsya avatara in Shathapatha Brahmana, and brief mentions of Varaha and Narasimha Avatara.

 

The Avatara concept is also detailed by the Purnamidam.... mantra and by the Rig Veda which says that Vishnu, who is unborn, takes multiple births.

 

Now, here is a reference to Krishna in Shruti:

 

BrahmaNyO Devaki putrO BrahmaNyO madhusUdhanOM ~ Mahanarayana Upanishad.

 

This is quoted by Sri Vaishnava acharyas, so one can trust its authenticity. Furthermore, Mahanarayana Upanishad makes reference to the 'Being on the Ocean' which signifies Vishnu on Adi Sesha in the Ocean of Milk.

 

---

 

The reason why the Vedas do not elaborate on avatars is because they are primarily concerned with the Svarupa of Brahman. However, there is a clear indication that the Vedas are only talking about the same Vishnu that we know and love. There has been no fabrication, or invention of deities to link them to the Vedas.

 

Vedas focus on Paratvam. Gita focuses on Soulabhyam.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

 

 

 

 

—Now here this!, Now here this!—

 

 

 

 

<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

Your postulations are sophomoric.

Why would you presume that those who follow A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's translations are uneducated?

You are wrongly considering the sentiments of a societal renouncer with those who seek to lead society.

Why are you assuming the position of pariah even before the Standard of Measurement is established?

That tells me you are insincere, with an emphasis on 'in sin'.

I went to Grammer school --so I learned the grammer of many Latin-Romance Languages, plus Japanese, Arabic--and what you are pointing out appears to presume I am much much less educated than your supposition would require to astond me with some revelation.

 

I do read your post--And I wasn't born yesterday, Kumar-ji.

I am not uneducated nor gullible nor slow witted.

 

I'm one righteous man. And quess what? I know it. It humbles me and it also emboldens me.

 

I need intellectual stimulation.

 

If I have to wade through your reverse upside-down diametrically-opposed inside-out double-speaking diatribe then you are simply

fooling with my sensiblities.

 

Ergo, you are not a scholar and You know it.

 

Please seek a hobby that wont deplete all your remaining good karma.

 

If I ask your opinion, that should be an Honor for you.

 

 

If I don't ask for your opinion--that's because I have no need for it, Boss.

 

I know who my daddy is. I know who 'The Man' is.

 

If you mis-speak one time while knowing you are out of your league -- you will be called to attest your ignorance among those who will have no vested interest in you.

 

 

—That is all.—

 

 

 

 

And your point is

[bija]

 

About the Name "Hindu"

By Nandanandana dasa prabhu

 

I feel there needs to be some clarification about the use of the words “Hindu” and “Hinduism.” The fact is that true “Hinduism” is based on Vedic knowledge, which is related to our spiritual identity. Many people do accept it to mean the same thing as Sanatana-dharma, which is a more accurate Sanskrit term for the Vedic path. Such an identity is beyond any temporary names as Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, or even Hindu. After all, God never describes Himself as belonging to any such category, saying that He is only a Christian God, or a Muslim God, or a Hindu God. That is why some of the greatest spiritual masters from India have avoided identifying themselves only as Hindus. The Vedic path is eternal, and therefore beyond all such temporary designations. So am I calling the name “Hindu” a temporary designation?

 

We must remember that the term “hindu” is not even Sanskrit. Numerous scholars say it is not found in any of the Vedic literature. So how can such a name truly represent the Vedic path or culture? And without the Vedic literature, there is no basis for “Hinduism.”

 

Most scholars feel that the name “Hindu” was developed by outsiders, invaders who could not pronounce the name of the Sindhu River properly. According to Sir Monier Williams, the Sanskrit lexicographer, you cannot find an indigenous root for the words Hindu or India. Neither are these words found in any Buddhist or Jain texts, nor any of the official 23 languages of India. Some sources report that it was Alexander the Great who first renamed the River Sindhu as the Indu, dropping the beginning “S”, thus making it easier for the Greeks to pronounce. This became known as the Indus. This was when Alexander invaded India around 325 B.C. His Macedonian forces thereafter called the land east of the Indus as India, a name used especially during the British regime.

 

Later, when the Muslim invaders arrived from such places as Afghanistan and Persia, they called the Sindhu River the Hindu River. Thereafter, the name “Hindu” was used to describe the inhabitants from that tract of land in the northwestern provinces of India where the Sindhu River is located, and the region itself was called “Hindustan.” Because the Sanskrit sound of “S” converts to “H” in the Parsee language, the Muslims pronounced the Sindhu as “hindu,” even though at the time the people of the area did not use the name “hindu” themselves. This word was used by the Muslim foreigners to identify the people and the religion of those who lived in that area. Thereafter, even the Indians conformed to these standards as set by those in power and used the names Hindu and Hindustan. Otherwise, the word has no meaning except for those who place value on it or now use it out of convenience.

 

Another view of the name “Hindu” shows the confusing nature it causes for understanding the true essence of the spiritual paths of India. As written be R. N. Suryanarayan in his book Universal Religion (p.1-2, published in Mysore in 1952), “The political situation of our country from centuries past, say 20-25 centuries, has made it very difficult to understand the nature of this nation and its religion. The western scholars, and historians, too, have failed to trace the true name of this Brahmanland, a vast continent-like country, and, therefore, they have contented themselves by calling it by that meaningless term ‘Hindu’. This word, which is a foreign innovation, is not made use by any of our Sanskrit writers and revered Acharyas in their works. It seems that political power was responsible for insisting upon continuous use of the word Hindu. The word Hindu is found, of course, in Persian literature. Hindu-e-falak means ‘the black of the sky’ and ‘Saturn’. In the Arabic language Hind not Hindu means nation. It is shameful and ridiculous to have read all along in history that the name Hindu was given by the Persians to the people of our country when they landed on the sacred soil of Sindhu.”

 

The location wherein the word “Hindu” occurs for what some people feel the first time is in the Avesta of the Iranians in its description of the country of India and its people. As their state religion of Zoroastrianism grew, the word seemed to take on a derogatory meaning. And of course as Islam spread in India, the words “Hindu” and “Hindustan” became even more disrespected and even hated in the Persian arena, and more prominent in the Persian and Arabic literature after the 11th century.

 

Another view of the source of the name Hindu is based on a derogatory meaning. It is said that, “Moreover, it is correct that this name [Hindu] has been given to the original Aryan race of the region by Muslim invaders to humiliate them. In Persian, says our author, the word means slave, and according to Islam, all those who did not embrace Islam were termed as slaves.” (Maharishi Shri Dayanand Saraswati Aur Unka Kaam, edited by Lala Lajpat Rai, published in Lahore, 1898, in the Introduction)

 

Furthermore, a Persian dictionary titled Lughet-e-Kishwari, published in Lucknow in 1964, gives the meaning of the word Hindu as “chore [thief], dakoo [dacoit], raahzan [waylayer], and ghulam [slave].” In another dictionary, Urdu-Feroze-ul-Laghat (Part One, p. 615) the Persian meaning of the word Hindu is further described as barda (obedient servant), sia faam (balck color) and kaalaa (black). So these are all derogatory expressions for the translation of the term hindu in the Persian label of the people of India.

 

So, basically, Hindu is merely a continuation of a Muslim term that became popular only within the last 1300 years. In this way, we can understand that it is not a valid Sanskrit term, nor does it have anything to do with the true Vedic culture or the Vedic spiritual path. No religion ever existed that was called “Hinduism” until the Indian people in general placed value on that name, as given by those who dominated over them, and accepted its use. So is it any wonder that some Indian acharyas and Vedic organizations do not care to use the term?

 

The real confusion started when the name “Hinduism” was used to indicate the religion of the Indian people. The words “Hindu” and “Hinduism” were used frequently by the British with the effect of focusing on the religious differences between the Muslims and the people who became known as “Hindus”. This was done with the rather successful intention of creating friction among the people of India. This was in accord with the British policy of divide and rule to make it easier for their continued dominion over the country.

 

However, we should mention that others who try to justify the word “Hindu” present the idea that rishis of old, several thousand years ago, also called central India Hindustan, and the people who lived there Hindus. The following verse, said to be from the Vishnu Purana, Padma Purana and the Bruhaspati Samhita, is provided as proof, yet I am still waiting to learn the exact location where we can find this verse:

 

Aaasindo Sindhu Paryantham Yasyabharatha Bhoomikah

 

MathruBhuh Pithrubhoochaiva sah Vai Hindurithismrithaah

 

Another verse reads as: Sapta sindhu muthal Sindhu maha samudhram vareyulla Bharatha bhoomi aarkkellamaano Mathru bhoomiyum Pithru bhoomiyumayittullathu, avaraanu hindukkalaayi ariyappedunnathu. Both of these verses more or less indicate that whoever considers the land of Bharatha Bhoomi between Sapta Sindu and the Indian Ocean as his or her motherland and fatherland is known as Hindu. However, here we also have the real and ancient name of India mentioned, which is Bharata Bhoomi. “Bhoomi” (or Bhumi) means Mother Earth, but Bharata is the land of Bharata or Bharata-varsha, which is the land of India. In numerous Vedic references in the Puranas, Mahabharata and other Vedic texts, the area of India is referred to as Bharata-varsha or the land of Bharata and not as Hindustan. The name Bharata-varsha certainly helps capture the roots and glorious past of the country and its people.

 

Another couple of references that are used, though the exact location of which I am not sure, includes the following:

 

Himalayam Samaarafya Yaavat Hindu Sarovaram

 

Tham Devanirmmitham desham Hindustanam Prachakshathe

 

Himalyam muthal Indian maha samudhram vareyulla

 

devanirmmithamaya deshaththe Hindustanam ennu parayunnu

 

These again indicate that the region between the Himalayas and the Indian Ocean is called Hindustan. Thus, the conclusion of this is that all Indians are Hindus regardless of their caste and religion. Of course, not everyone is going to agree with that.

 

Others say that in the Rig Veda, Bharata is referred to as the country of “Sapta Sindhu”, i.e. the country of seven great rivers. This is, of course, acceptable. However, exactly which book and chapter this verse comes from needs to be clarified. Nonetheless, some say that the word “Sindhu” refers to rivers and sea, and not merely to the specific river called “Sindhu”. Furthermore, it is said that in Vedic Sanskrit, according to ancient dictionaries, “sa” was pronounced as “ha”. Thus “Sapta Sindhu” was pronounced as “Hapta Hindu”. So this is how the word “Hindu” is supposed to have come into being. It is also said that the ancient Persians referred to Bharat as “Hapta Hind”, as recorded in their ancient classic “Bem Riyadh”. So this is another reason why some scholars came to believe that the word “Hindu” had its origin in Persia.

 

Another theory is that the name “Hindu” does not even come from the name Sindhu. Mr. A. Krishna Kumar of Hyderabad, India explains. “This [sindhu/Hindu] view is untenable since Indians at that time enviably ranked highest in the world in terms of civilization and wealth would not have been without a name. They were not the unknown aborigines waiting to be discovered, identified and Christened by foreigners.” He cites an argument from the book Self-Government in India by N. B. Pavgee, published in 1912. The author tells of an old Swami and Sanskrit scholar Mangal Nathji, who found an ancient Purana known as Brihannaradi in the Sham village, Hoshiarpur, Punjab. It contained this verse:

 

himalayam samarabhya yavat bindusarovaram

 

hindusthanamiti qyatam hi antaraksharayogatah

 

Again the exact location of this verse in the Purana is missing, but Kumar translates it as: “The country lying between the Himalayan mountains and Bindu Sarovara (Cape Comorin sea) is known as Hindusthan by combination of the first letter ‘hi’ of ‘Himalaya’ and the last compound letter ‘ndu’ of the word ‘Bindu.’”

 

This, of course, is supposed to have given rise to the name “Hindu”, indicating an indigenous origin. The conclusion of which is that people living in this area are thus known as “Hindus”.

 

So again, in any way these theories may present their information, and in any way you look at it, the name “Hindu” started simply as a bodily and regional designation. The name “Hindu” refers to a location and its people and originally had nothing to do with the philosophies, religion or culture of the people, which could certainly change from one thing to another. It is like saying that all people from India are Indians. Sure, that is acceptable as a name referring to a location, but what about their religion, faith and philosophy? These are known by numerous names according to the various outlooks and beliefs. Thus, they are not all Hindus, as many people who do not follow the Vedic system already object to calling themselves by that name. So “Hindu” is not the most appropriate name of a spiritual path, but the Sanskrit term of Sanatana-dharma is much more accurate. The culture of the ancient Indians and their early history is Vedic culture or Vedic dharma. So it is more appropriate to use a name that is based on that culture for those who follow it, rather than a name that merely addresses the location of a people.

 

It seems that only with the Vedic kings of the Vijayanagara empire in 1352 was the word “Hindu” used with pride by Bukkal who described himself as “Hinduraya suratrana”. Whereas the main Sanskrit texts, and even the rituals that have been performed in the temples from millennia ago, used the word “Bharata in reference to the area of present-day India. Thus, it is traditionally and technically more accurate to refer to the land of India as “Bharata” or “Bharat varsha”.

 

Unfortunately, the word “Hindu” has gradually been adopted by most everyone, even the Indians, and is presently applied in a very general way, so much so, in fact, that now “Hinduism” is often used to describe anything from religious activities to even Indian social or nationalistic events. Some of these so-called “Hindu” events are not endorsed in the Vedic literature, and, therefore, must be considered non-Vedic. Thus, not just anyone can call themselves a “Hindu” and still be considered a follower of the Vedic path. Nor can any activity casually be dubbed as a part of Hinduism and thoughtlessly be considered a part of the true Vedic culture.

 

Therefore, the Vedic spiritual path is more precisely called Sanatana-dharma, which means the eternal, unchanging occupation of the soul in its relation to the Supreme Being. Just as the dharma of sugar is to be sweet, this does not change. And if it is not sweet, then it is not sugar. Or the dharma of fire is to give warmth and light. If it does not do that, then it is not fire. In the same way, there is a particular dharma or nature of the soul, which is sanatana, or eternal. It does not change. So there is the state of dharma and the path of dharma. Following the principles of Sanatana-dharma can bring us to the pure state of regaining our forgotten spiritual identity and relationship with God. This is the goal of Vedic knowledge and its system of self-realization. Thus, the knowledge of the Vedas and all Vedic literature, such as Lord Krishna’s message in Bhagavad-gita, as well as the teachings of the Upanishads and Puranas, are not limited to only “Hindus” who are restricted to a certain region of the planet or family of birth. Such knowledge is actually meant for the whole world. As everyone is a spiritual being and has the same spiritual essence as described according to the principles of Sanatana-dharma, then everyone should be given the right and privilege to understand this knowledge. It cannot be held for an exclusive group or region of people.

 

Sanatana-dharma is also the fully developed spiritual philosophy that fills whatever gaps may be left by the teachings of other less philosophically developed religions. Direct knowledge of the soul is a “universal spiritual truth” which can be applied by all people, in any part of the world, in any time in history, and in any religion. It is eternal. Therefore, being an eternal spiritual truth, it is beyond all time and worldly designations. Knowledge of the soul is the essence of Vedic wisdom and is more than what the name “Hindu” implies, especially after understanding from where the name comes.

 

Even if the time arrives in this deteriorating age of Kali-yuga after many millennia when Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and even Hinduism (as we call it today) may disappear from the face of the earth, there will still be the Vedic teachings that remain as a spiritual and universal truth, even if such truths may be forgotten and must be re-established again in this world by Lord Krishna Himself. I doubt then that He will use the name “Hindu.” He certainly said nothing of the sort when He last spoke Bhagavad-gita.

 

Thus, although I do not feel that “Hindu” is a proper term to represent the Vedic Aryan culture or spiritual path, I do use the word from time to time to mean the same thing since it is already so much a part of everyone’s vocabulary. Otherwise, since I follow the Vedic path of Sanatana-dharma, I call myself a Sanatana-dharmist. That reduces the need to use the label of “Hindu” and also helps focus on the universal nature of the Vedic path. Therefore, I propose that all those who consider themselves to be Hindus begin to use this term Sanatana-dharmist, which not only refers to the correct Sanskrit terminology, but also more accurately depicts the true character and spiritual intention of the Vedic path. Others have also used the terms Sanatanis or even Dharmists, both of which are closer to the real meaning within Vedic culture.

 

However, for political and legal purposes it may be convenient to continue using the name Hindu for the time being. Until the terms Sanatana-dharma or Vedic dharma become more recognized by international law and society in general, “Hindu” may remain the term behind which to rally for Vedic culture. But over the long term, it is a name that is bound to change in meaning to the varying views of it due to its lack of a real linguistic foundation. Being based merely on the values people place in it, its meaning and purpose will vary from person to person, culture to culture, and certainly from generation to generation. We can see how this took place with the British in India. So there will be the perpetuation of the problems with the name and why some people and groups will not want to accept it.

 

Yet by the continued and increased use of the terms Vedic dharma or Sanatana-dharma, at least by those who are more aware of the definitive Sanskrit basis of these terms, they will gain recognition as being the more correct terminology. It merely takes some time to make the proper adjustments.

 

This is the way to help cure the misinterpretation or misunderstandings that may come from using the name “Hindu,” and also end the reasons why some groups do not care to identify themselves under that name. After all, most Vedic groups, regardless of their orientation and the specific path they follow, can certainly unite behind the term Vedic dharma.

 

APPENDIX: Srila Prabhupada, founder of the International Society of Krishna Consciousness, has said different things at different times or to different people regarding the use of the name “Hindu”. Many times members of Iskcon seem to think that the name Hindu should be avoided at all costs. And on numerous occasions Srila Prabhupada did say Iskcon members are not necessarily Hindus.

 

However, he succinctly explains to Janmanjaya and Taradevi in a letter from Los Angeles of July 9th, 1970 that there is a connection between Hinduism and Krishna Consciousness: “Regarding your questions: Hindu means the culture of the Indians. India happens to be situated on the other side of the Indus River which is now in Pakistan which is spelled Indus–in Sanskrit it is called Sindhu. The sindhu was misspelled by the Europeans as Indus, and from Indus the word ‘Indian’ has come. Similarly the Arabians used to pronounce sindhus as Hindus. This [thus] Hindus is spoken as Hindus. It is neither a Sanskrit word nor is it found in the Vedic literatures. But the culture of the Indians or the Hindus is Vedic and beginning with the four varnas and four ashramas. So these varnas and four ashramas are meant for really civilized human race. Therefore the conclusion is actually when a human being is civilized in the true sense of the term he follows the system of varna and ashrama and then he can be called a ‘Hindu’. Our Krishna Consciousness Movement is preaching these four varnas and four ashramas, so naturally it has got some relationship with the Hindus. So Hindus can be understood from the cultural point of view, not religious point of view. Culture is never religion. Religion is a faith, and culture is educational or advancement of knowledge.”

 

He further says in a letter from Los Angeles, July 16th, 1970, wherein he answers questions for a Nevatiaji: “9. The Americans are very intelligent and qualified boys and girls so they understand the principles as genuine and thus they accept them. They understand that Krsna Consciousness Movement is neither Indian nor Hindu, but it is a cultural movement for the whole human society although of course because it is coming from India it has [an] Indian and Hindu touch.”

 

In this way, Srila Prabhupada differentiated Krishna Consciousness as a universal, cultural and spiritual movement that could stand on its own, apart from any particular religious and cultural distinction. Yet he still relates how there is certainly an Indian and Hindu relationship with what is being presented within his movement. And this does not have to be nor should it be completely ignored or avoided. We can certainly work together for the preservation and promotion of Vedic culture without difficulty with those who may prefer to call themselves Hindu, knowing our connection with the Vedic traditions.

[krsna]

Hard to Accept that ISKCON is Really NOT Hindu

 

Submitted by Mukunda Goswami

 

Philosophical points unique to the philosophy of ISKCON include:

 

1. There is a spiritual universe and higher material realms.

2. The spiritual universe is larger and more populous than the material universe.

3. God is always ultimately in charge of everything.

4. We are not these bodies.

5. The soul is always reborn in the material world, where he/she is one out of 8,400,000 forms of life.

6. The soul is more powerful than the body.

7. God and His Name are the same.

8. The Deity is God Himself.

9. God is a Person.

10. We can relate with God in five principal ways: neutral, servitor, friend, parent, lover.

11. God is defined as having six opulences.

12. Yugas recur.

13. In previous ages humans lived for 100,000 years.

14. The stature of humans in previous times was larger.

15. So-called advancement in medicine, transportation and communication is primitive, coarse and gross.

16. Humans are polished animals.

[raghu]

 

Raghu, your an ARROGENT fool, stop writting nonsense!! Obviously you represent the 'ignorant side of Hindusm"

 

Prabhupada saved the Vedic Culture from the mundane Hindus of a corrupt and over invaded India by Muslims and Europeans, who created the name 'Hindu in the first place, it is certainly NOT a Sanskrit word. This even included saving the teachings of Lord Caitanya from the stagnation and the lack of seriousness (the desire to preach all over the world to others) of his Godbrothers.

 

A quick reality check if you please...

 

1) Prabhupada's concept of "Vedic Culture" is based on the rituals and practices propagated by Bengali Vaishnavas following Chaithanya, which are themselves inspired by the Bhagavata Purana, not the Vedas.

 

2) Not that there is anything wrong with that, mind you, but the idea that, "It does not match Prabhupada's views, therefore it is not Vedic" is just plain wrong.

 

3) The culture that Prabhupada created is itself suffering from the stagnation of corrupt disciples who are totally clueless about the basic premise of Vedic culture. The fact that there are "senior devotees" who think that recognition of homosexual matings is a good thing is proof positive that iskcon has lost its way. The fact that there are "senior devotees" who speak all praise about Jesus Christ and Mohammed is ample evidence that they have diluted their conclusions with the ideas of mlecchas. And what to speak of the child abusers and money embezzlers....

 

4) The idea that Hindu culture is synonymous with "mundane" corruption etc is a grossly oversimplified generalization based on prejudice. While there are many corrupt leaders, the fact remains that there are many genuine devotees also. Of course, they don't have web pages, air-conditioned temples, or rich Bollywood stars patronizing them, so naturally they won't come to the attention of hallucinogen-using junkies in the West.

 

5) While we're on the subject of "corruption," may I ask why you preach about the corruption of Hindus, yet continue to live in a country where animals including cows are slaughtered? Is that the behavior of a Vaishnava situated in sattva, or a show-bottle pseudo-spiritualist who can't practice what he preaches?

 

 

He said the Vedic gift was passed onto the West because Indian 'Hindism' had failed.

 

Failure and success is hard to define when discussing the application of genuine spirituality to the unqualified masses. Most people don't want the truth, and there is nothing to say that genuine spirituality will necessarily appeal to everyone. On the contrary, the fact that iskcon devotees have to dilute their philosophy with so many Christian and Muslim concoctions in order to make it acceptable to the masses is ample proof of this point.

 

 

Now it was up to Prabhupada's dancing white Elephants to re-established Vedic culture back in India and teach the 'Hindus and the entire world' who they really are as Spiritual entities. And its working, even this web site is the creation of a student of Srila Prabhupada

 

This web site is primarily a forum for part-time Vaishnavas who preach one thing and practice another. I rarely meet people here who can display any serious depth of knowledge about our scriptures, or even the ability to think logically. But they seem to always know about the latest TV shows and movies. I guess my "corrupt" and "mundane" Hindu mind just cannot fathom this at all.

 

 

So many 'HINDUS' today say to us that we devotees of Western origin know more about their religion than they do. And in all humility, we do.

 

Unless those Hindus are Vaishnavas following in the Chaithanya line, then they most certainly are not being shown "their religion." Anyway, if those Hindus are all ignorant and corrupt as you claim, then why is their praise of you worthy of note?

 

It's precisely because they are ignorant that they think iskcon is something genuine. And it is because of that same ignorance that they can be lead astray by any number of the pseudo Vaishnava wannabe gurus who frequent forums like these.

[bija]

Dare I say I watched one television program last night Raghu, even though I eventually turned it off. It was interesting and at the same time disheartening.

 

It was showing the up and coming Chinese culture and their relation to the car. Status identity with objects such as cars etc. So far from the truth that underlies this world - almost to the point of ridiculous. If China is the new future of the world, I do not see much hope for spiritual culture.

 

I see similar things happening in India, with rising affluence and middle class. The distinguishing factor between India and China is that China has been conditioned with a hash of atheism and confucianism for so many years. It is no wonder that these young chinese find full satisfaction in gross materialism. India has a vastly different herirtage and treasure.

 

Many of us in the west became disillusioned at a young age with what we were being offered (and yes drugs became an option for some to drop out), seeing our parents chase this pie in the sky - capatilism. Growing up in familiies that are disintegrated with each individual in that group caring only for itself. A sham of a culture in some ways.

 

I first became aware of the error of our culture and family values as a young man - and began the search for truth then. As a young man I lived in Latin America and found family and community values, within poverty, that the selfish culture I was bought up in did not know or share. That was my personal encounter. The happiness in the small villages was something new and fresh - even amidst poverty.

 

So many of us in the west, can see through the bull of our own culture, and where it is heading. Many young people in the east seem to be chasing that dream with great abandon - almost naievely.

 

Maybe all us folk in the west can share with the Hindu young now, one thing, don't chase it...it is a farce.

 

Srila Prabhupada had a vision that his dancing white elephants would save his culture (hinduism) from that farce. But those dancing white elephants failed that mission - well at least some of them did.

 

Maybe all we have in the west to share with you guys now is - don't chase that joke of materialism - its sting is far reaching for future society.

 

Infact Raghu, I am of the humble opinion, that the Indian born people have a duty to share with the world. The depth of vedic wisdom and its knowledge of how to live well in this world. Lord Caitanya said it is the duty of all Indian born people to spread that wisdom. It is not up to us dancing white elephants now - its up to you.

 

Infact the greatest loss is to see the young Indian people, with a culture that stores such wealth of wisdom, gradually filter it down for selfish gain - and chase the dream of car status, house status, brand status etc. Which will eventually lead to a world wide selfishness in the psyche, which will manifest to a greater extent than it does this day. This will happen - and sickness such as depression, disillusion and other neurosis begins to manifest - due to lack of purpose.

 

When I watched that television program last night, I could see little hope.

 

Dancing white elephants are not going to save anything, in my humble opinion - especially if they are fanatics who think themselves better than the rest of the world.

 

It is up to us Raghu even in our fallen conditioned state and slip-ups!

 

We have failed in one regard - we have utilized affluence for selfish gain. When in fact being born in this culture should be a blessing - without the hard struggle for life, to seek spiritual life. But instead most of us just choose to strive harder with the work ethic of betterment. The desire for things is unlimited - and illusory. Leading to old age and disease (and possibly disappointment).

 

So really both the up and coming westerners and easterners have been somewhat foolish thus far - squandering opportunity due to karma.

 

A bleak old post I have posted here - in response to your bleak post. But I know these words are not truth - we both have great hope - is it not? And a duty to perform.

 

y.s.

[bija]

 

http://causelessmercy.com/SB7.9.4.htm

SB7.9.43

TEXT 43

naivodvije para duratyaya-vaitaraṇyās

tvad-vīrya-gāyana-mahāmṛta-magna-cittaḥ

śoce tato vimukha-cetasa indriyārtha-

māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān

 

SYNONYMS

na—not; eva—certainly; udvije—I am disturbed or afraid; para—O Supreme; duratyaya—insurmountable or very difficult to cross; vaitaraṇyāḥ—of the Vaitaraṇī, the river of the material world; tvat-vīrya—of Your Lordship’s glories and activities; gāyana—from chanting or distributing; mahā-amṛta—in the great ocean of nectarean spiritual bliss; magna-cittaḥ—whose consciousness is absorbed; śoce—I am simply lamenting; tataḥ—from that; vimukha-cetasaḥ—the fools and rascals who are bereft of Kṛṣṇa consciousness; indriya-artha—in sense gratification; māyā-sukhāya—for temporary, illusory happiness; bharam—the false burden or responsibility (of maintaining one’s family, society and nation and elaborate arrangements for that purpose); udvahataḥ—who are lifting (by making grand plans for this arrangement); vimūḍhān—although all of them are nothing but fools and rascals (I am thinking of them also).

 

TRANSLATION

O best of the great personalities, I am not at all afraid of material existence, for wherever I stay I am fully absorbed in thoughts of Your glories and activities. My concern is only for the fools and rascals who are making elaborate plans for material happiness and maintaining their families, societies and countries. I am simply concerned with love for them.

 

PURPORT

Throughout the entire world, everyone is making big, big plans to adjust the miseries of the material world, and this is true at present, in the past and in the future. Nonetheless, although they make elaborate political, social and cultural plans, they have all been described herein as vimūḍha—fools. The material world has been described in Bhagavad-gītā as duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]—temporary and miserable—but these fools are trying to turn the material world into sukhālayam, a place of happiness, not knowing how everything acts by the arrangement of material nature, which works in her own way.

 

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

 

 

“The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by nature.” (Bg. 3.27)

There is a plan for material nature, personally known as Durgā, to punish the demons. Although the asuras, the godless demons, struggle for existence, they are directly attacked by the goddess Durgā, who is well equipped with ten hands with different types of weapons to punish them. She is carried by her lion carrier, or the modes of passion and ignorance. Everyone struggles very hard to fight through the modes of passion and ignorance and conquer material nature, but at the end everyone is vanquished by nature’s laws.

There is a river known as Vaitaraṇī between the material and spiritual worlds, and one must cross this river to reach the other side, or the spiritual world. This is an extremely difficult task. As the Lord says in Bhagavad-gītā (7.14), daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā: “This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome.” The same word duratyaya, meaning “very difficult,” is used here. Therefore one cannot surpass the stringent laws of material nature except by the mercy of the Supreme Lord. Nonetheless, although all materialists are baffled in their plans, they try again and again to become happy in this material world. Therefore they have been described as vimūḍha—first-class fools. As for Prahlāda Mahārāja, he was not at all unhappy, for although he was in the material world, he was full of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, trying to serve the Lord, are not unhappy, whereas one who has no assets in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and is struggling for existence is not only foolish but extremely unhappy also. Prahlāda Mahārāja was happy and unhappy simultaneously. He felt happiness and transcendental bliss because of his being Kṛṣṇa conscious, yet he felt great unhappiness for the fools and rascals who make elaborate plans to be happy in this material world.