Enforcing God's Will

[suchandra]

Simple things like protecting the cow - will present world population ever come to this understanding by their own free will?

[bija]

Hope must remain. All I know Suchandra, is that the diseased entity is in great need of a real spiritual encounter - to awaken and heal itself, and the environment.

 

Maybe suffering will be the catalyst to begin the search for that 'real encounter'. Blessed are those great souls who awaken out of free will.

[suchandra]

 

Hope must remain. All I know Suchandra, is that the diseased entity is in great need of a real spiritual encounter - to awaken and heal itself, and the environment.

 

Maybe suffering will be the catalyst to begin the search for that 'real encounter'. Blessed are those great souls who awaken out of free will.

 

Yes, hope must remain. All I know Bija, is that Mahatma Gandhi also kept that faith.

 

Prabhupāda: The people approached him that “Mahatmaji, you have got influence over the Muslims, why not stop cow-killing?” “I cannot touch on their religious principles.” Just see. Cow-killing is religious? Their religious principle. If I say my father-killing, mother-killing is my religion, so Gandhi will say, “Yes, you can do that. Nonviolent.” Kill nonviolent. This nonsense contradiction can be tolerated by the fools and rascals. That’s all. That is… Nonviolence, at the same time cow-killing. This rascal, another rascal… You are observing Buddha-jayantī and daily cow-killing. As if Buddha, Lord Buddha, recommended cow-killing.

 

Morning Walk Conversation

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

January 9, 1977, Bombay

[bija]

Is mother earth considered cow suchandra (I am not sure of scripture)?

 

We really need to get to the point of sacred as a human race. Mass exploitation of mother nature is showing now. Although we are spirit we are also brothers and sisters of mother nature....she will force us in due course by her wisdom to walk in gentleness (ahimsa).

 

I do not think religious force is the way of God...that is evident by the fundamentalist vision and its violence. Its a counterfeit in my opinion and opposed to divine will of love and freedom of spirit.

 

If we can awaken to a deeper sense of God consciousness, care for cow and care for our fellow beings will be natural and spontaneous. How to bring that expanded, developed, conscious awareness on a mass scale....is something the leaders need to contemplate and implement! Srila Prabhupada strongly suggested education needs to teach such things...he was a great pioneer and fine empowered acaraya. Time will prove that and his books will be the legacy.

 

The violent leaders will choose force...the intelligent leaders may take a different course. Srila Prabhupada gave a perfect example.

 

We surely need to tread gently upon our mother (both cow and earth)...and tread gently in our dealings one with another. Only a radical shift in conscious awareness will bring that shift about in each of us.

 

Just some thoughts...still trying to find my way with my own violence (on a subtle level). Anyhow off to make offering...take care mate!

[bija]

...in reference to my above post...leaders need to teach 'real knowledge' to the masses...for gradual upliftment and enlightenment of society at large...culminating in fully realized God (Krsna) consciousness. (Far different from moralistic religious fundamentalism and force.)

SB6.1.10

TEXT 10

kvacin nivartate ’bhadrāt

kvacic carati tat punaḥ

prāyaścittam atho ’pārthaṁ

manye kuñjara-śaucavat

SYNONYMS

kvacit—sometimes; nivartate—ceases; abhadrāt—from sinful activity; kvacit—sometimes; carati—commits; tat—that (sinful activity); punaḥ—again; prāyaścittam—the process of atonement; atho—therefore; apārtham—useless; manye—I consider; kuñjara-śaucavat—exactly like the bathing of an elephant.

TRANSLATION

Sometimes one who is very alert so as not to commit sinful acts is victimized by sinful life again. I therefore consider this process of repeated sinning and atoning to be useless. It is like the bathing of an elephant, for an elephant cleanses itself by taking a full bath, but then throws dust over its head and body as soon as it returns to the land.

PURPORT

When Parīkṣit Mahārāja inquired how a human being could free himself from sinful activities so as not to be forced to go to hellish planetary systems after death, Śukadeva Gosvāmī answered that the process of counteracting sinful life is atonement. In this way Śukadeva Gosvāmī tested the intelligence of Mahārāja Parīkṣit, who passed the examination by refusing to accept this process as genuine. Now Parīkṣit Mahārāja is expecting another answer from his spiritual master, Śukadeva Gosvāmī.

SB6.1.11

TEXT 11

śrī-bādarāyaṇir uvāca

 

 

karmaṇā karma-nirhāro

na hy ātyantika iṣyate

avidvad-adhikāritvāt

prāyaścittaṁ vimarśanam

SYNONYMS

śrī-bādarāyaṇiḥ uvāca—Śukadeva Gosvāmī, the son of Vyāsadeva, replied; karmaṇā—by fruitive activities; karma-nirhāraḥ—counteraction of fruitive activities; na—not; hi—indeed; ātyantikaḥ—final; iṣyate—becomes possible; avidvat-adhikāritvāt—from being without knowledge; prāyaścittam—real atonement; vimarśanam—full knowledge of Vedānta.

TRANSLATION

Śukadeva Gosvāmī, the son of Vedavyāsa, answered: My dear King, since acts meant to neutralize impious actions are also fruitive, they will not release one from the tendency to act fruitively. Persons who subject themselves to the rules and regulations of atonement are not at all intelligent. Indeed, they are in the mode of darkness. Unless one is freed from the mode of ignorance, trying to counteract one action through another is useless because this will not uproot one’s desires. Thus even though one may superficially seem pious, he will undoubtedly be prone to act impiously. Therefore real atonement is enlightenment in perfect knowledge, Vedānta, by which one understands the Supreme Absolute Truth.

PURPORT

The guru, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, has examined Parīkṣit Mahārāja, and it appears that the King has passed one phase of the examination by rejecting the process of atonement because it involves fruitive activities. Now Śukadeva Gosvāmī is suggesting the platform of speculative knowledge. Progressing from karma-kāṇḍa to jñāna-kāṇḍa, he is proposing, prāyaścittaṁ vimarśanam: “Real atonement is full knowledge.” Vimarśana refers to the cultivation of speculative knowledge. In Bhagavad-gītā, karmīs, who are lacking in knowledge, are compared to asses. Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā (7.15):

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

 

 

“Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me.” Thus karmīs who engage in sinful acts and who do not know the true objective of life are called mūḍhas, asses. Vimarśana, however, is also explained in Bhagavad-gītā (15.15), where Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ: the purpose of Vedic study is to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If one studies Vedānta but merely advances somewhat in speculative knowledge and does not understand the Supreme Lord, one remains the same mūḍha. As stated in Bhagavad-gītā (7.19), one attains real knowledge when he understands Kṛṣṇa and surrenders unto Him (bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate). To become learned and free from material contamination, therefore, one should try to understand Kṛṣṇa, for thus one is immediately liberated from all pious and impious activities and their reactions.

[bija]

The pinnacle of real knowledge is infact...'deep realization of the Personal'.

 

But such deep 'realization' is so rare...that a gradual process is necessary it seems. Personal should still be taught as the ideal for humanity...for in that perfection humanity will reach its destiny (fully conscious awareness of service to super-soul - Sri Krsna). That service is what distinguishes us from the animal/spirit soul. It is our potential.

[Amlesh]

But understanding Gandhiji is never an easy Job.

 

He never said about being a perfect person, but his intent was being one.

 

Whatever he said or did at a certain point in time cannot be used to judge his integrity.

 

Slaughter of cows did affect him, that's why he made a vow never to drink milk.

 

Concerning not saying anything to the muslim, was an intelligent act from an extremely intelligent person, India was already under the pressure concerning the Hindu Muslim conflict and also on the other hand the fight for independence... had he said anything against the muslim principles would have caused many other conflicts.

 

It is very simple to understand this fact, all the Vaishnavas know that Lord Buddha is an incarnation of Lord Vishnu, but still Lord Buddha did not teach Bhakti, he limited the teachings upto the level of Nirvana...

 

Why??????

 

Due to circumstance and the level of intelligence of his disciple and of course because of HIS DIVINE WILL.

 

Sometimes higher intelligence when taught to people with less intelligence worsen things, it is wise to remain to the level required for proper adjustments.

 

It reminds me of one quotes of Chanakya Pandita, which I've mentionned so many times:

When milk which is of pure goodness is given to snakes, the only thing that takes effect is the strengthening of the Venom, likewise, knowledge to foolish people makes matters worse.

 

Anyways, I hope there are no snakes out here.

[suchandra]

Thanks so much - great feed back and interesting thoughts!

Here people immediately think of something like the Taliban cult, a militant theocracy related to Osama Bin Laden. This is of course a negative extreme and vedic kings like Pariksit only acted violently because they knew that 99% of their citizens were appreciating such kind of ruling. Right now we have rather the opposite, 99% against things like cow protection etc. Didnt want to highlight cow protection so much, just to use as an example of something what can be easily understood. If only modern science could find out that the cow is something like nature's nerve center and killing cows has so many chain reactions.

But as sastra foretells, in this age we shouldn't expect anything and Kalki Avatar is already sure to appear.

 

"The next avatar incarnation is Kalki. That is yet to take place. Kalki avatara will appear at the end of this age, Kali-yuga. The age of Kali-yuga, duration of this age is still to be, I mean to say, fulfilled in 400,000's of years. So at the end of Kali, that means at the last stage, after about 400,000's of years, the incarnation of Kali will appear. That is predicted in the Vedic literatures, as Lord Buddha's appearance was also predicted in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. And Srimad-Bhagavatam was compiled five thousand years ago, and Lord Buddha appeared about 2,500 years ago. Therefore about Lord Buddha's appearance it is predicted that at the beginning of Kali-yuga Lord Buddha will appear.

 

 

There was prediction, and that has actually come to be true. Similarly, there is prediction about Kalki avatara, and that will also come to be true. So at that time Lord Kalki's business will be simply to kill. No instruction. Just like... In Bhagavad-gita Lord Krsna gave instruction in the shape of Bhagavad-gita. But at the end of Kali-yuga, people will be so much degraded that there is no more possibility to give any instruction. They will not be able to understand even. At that time the only weapon will be to kill them. And one who is killed by the Lord, he also gets salvation. That is God's all-merciful quality. Either He protects or He kills, the result is the same. So that will be the last stage of this Kali-yuga, and after that, again Satya-yuga, the age of religiosity, will begin. These are the statements of Vedic literature."

 

Srila Prabhupada Lecture, 02-18-70, Los Angeles

[bija]

 

If only modern science could find out that the cow is something like nature's nerve center and killing cows has so many chain reactions. by suchandra

That is such a nice (mystic) realization Prabhu thx...I am sure the rational materialist would have a hard time grasping that vision of life. There has been great scientific thinkers who would grasp it...Jung, Fromm, Grof, just to name a few...but they are rare. Only if we were intellegent enough to dialogue with such quality people. Fromm dilaogued much with Suzuki (buddhist) - our philosophy (Krsna consciousness) is as good! Our disciplic succession has a great gift to offer. Fulfillment of human life as a person/Person.

 

I am not a strict follower of Srila Prabhupada, but I perceive this in his vision: He hoped to set up a society that could set an example. And within that society have high quality (realized) brahminical leadership that could sway great minds and leaders of society, by their pure example. Gita says the general public follow great leaders - great leaders set example so others may follow. He knew this would be possible due to his strong faith in Krsna and His Holy Name. I have hope Suchandra!!!

 

But unfortunately power took charge, sectarianism took foot....and the rest is history. To the simple seeker division is unappealing, and the idea of surrender to these structures is not desired.

 

Maybe now the only hope is if good leaders appear within the Hare Krsna societies and take up Srila Prabhupada's vision again (with a 10,000 year long goal plan - starting now)...and let Krsna be the supreme power. But who am I to speak out Suchandra...I cant even focus on my own baggage and clear it except by God's grace!

 

Back to your point...

 

If we can hold a simple creature like a cow as a sacred nerve centre, maybe then we will come close to the mystery of the way of life of the ancient (vedic) culture. Infact this natural culture was existent in many cultures...until the rational man took charge and saw faith as hogwash. But times are changing and people are seeking truth still.

 

Use of force? Why use the taliban as the example? Because we live now...and frustrated people can be swayed to fundamentalism easy. We as a Vedic society have a better option (we can set an example as a diverse krsna conscious society) and sway the intelligent and frustrated our way...instead of the counter-feit(fundamentalist extreme).

 

The extremists call out 'in the name of allah we take the sword'. Kalki will come in his own name and do the job, he will not employ some misfit minion (shoe bomber)!

 

You can probably tell how much I dislike fundamentalism. Sorry about that:pray:.

[bija]

In short what I am trying to say is what I learnt from my master:

 

'Faith in the Holy Name is the key!'

 

That will ensue God's will. (End material vision.)

 

This name will bring about all desired outcome - I have faith in that.

 

If cow can be the central nerve system of nature to the mystic...just imagine what the Name can be, and Is!

 

I am of the opinion we dont need to enforce rules....instead simply encourage others to vibrate Naam (even beginning with half an hour a day of jaap or kirtan). The rest will be spontaneous if we take up a small vow to vibrate Naam each day - it is that potent. Jaya Nitaai-Gauranga! Hare Krsna!

[AncientMariner]

 

Simple things like protecting the cow - will present world population ever come to this understanding by their own free will?

 

 

Personally I doubt it. Just do not see any evidence that this will ever happen without divine intervention or something but who knows for sure.

[suchandra]

 

Personally I doubt it. Just do not see any evidence that this will ever happen without divine intervention or something but who knows for sure.

 

Even in India there seems to have been a kind of democracy, allowing people to decide for themselves what is good/bad, so basically nothing was enforced.

 

Democracy in Ancient India

 

by Steve Muhlberger, Associate Professor of History, Nipissing University.

 

 

 

http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/muhlberger/histdem/indiadem.htm

 

Historians who are interested in democracy often insist it must be understood in context of a unique western tradition of political development beginning with the Greeks. The spread of democratic ideals and practice to other cultures, or their failure to spread, have many times been explained on the assumption that democracy or personal liberty are ideals foreign to the non-Western world -- an assumption at least as old as Herodotus.1 But events since the late 1980s have shown that people both in "Western" and "non-Western" countries have a lively interest in democracy as something relevant to their own situation. The old assumption deserves to be re-examined. In fact, the supposed differences between "Western" and "non-Western" cultures are in this case, as in so many others, more a matter of ideological faith than of cool, impartial judgment. If we are talking about the history of humanity as a whole, democracy is equally new or equally old everywhere. Fair and effective elections, under adult suffrage and in conditions that allow the free discussion of ideas, are a phenomenon of this century. The history of democracy, properly so called, is just beginning.

The "prehistory" of democracy, however, is scarcely restricted to Europe and Europeanized America and Australasia. A search of world history finds much worth studying. There are no perfect democracies waiting to be discovered, but there is something else: a long history of "government by discussion," in which groups of people having common interests make decisions that affect their lives through debate, consultation, and voting. The vast majority of such groups, it may be objected, are more properly called oligarchies than democracies. But every democracy has been created by widening what was originally a very narrow franchise. The history of government by discussion, which may be called republicanism for brevity's sake, has a claim to the interest of anyone who takes democracy seriously.2

This article will examine one important case of government by discussion -- the republics of Ancient India. Although they are familiar to Indologists, these republics are hardly known to other historians. They deserve, however, a substantial place in world historiography. The experience of Ancient India with republicanism, if better known, would by itself make democracy seem less of a freakish development, and help dispel the common idea that the very concept of democracy is specifically "Western."

The present article has two goals. First, it will summarize the history of the ancient Indian republics as it is currently known. This survey is restricted to North India and the period before about 400 A.D., when sovereign republics seem to have become extinct.

Second, the article will examine the historiographical evaluations of the Indian republican experience, and suggest that most of them have placed it in too narrow a context. Ancient Indian democratic experiments, it will be argued, are more important than they are usually granted to be. It is well known that the sources of ancient Indian history present considerable difficulties. All the indigenous ancient literature from the subcontinent has been preserved as part of a religious tradition, Brahmanical, Buddhist or Jaina. When the subject is political theory and its implementation, the preselected nature of sources is a distinct handicap to the researcher. The largest and most influential Indian literary tradition, the Brahmanical, is distinctly hostile to anything resembling democracy.

[bija]

 

This article will examine one important case of government by discussion -- the republics of Ancient India. Although they are familiar to Indologists, these republics are hardly known to other historians. They deserve, however, a substantial place in world historiography. The experience of Ancient India with republicanism, if better known, would by itself make democracy seem less of a freakish development, and help dispel the common idea that the very concept of democracy is specifically "Western." quoted by suchandra

 

Ancient Indian democratic experiments, it will be argued, are more important than they are usually granted to be. quoted by suchandra

This is really interesting subject matter worth considering. The western course of history has been presented to modern thinkers with an 'ethnocentric' bias by the western academies and intellectuals for many years. A bias of superiority. This trend is slowly passing thank god.

 

One example of this is indigenous practice of shamanism in the Americas. The western ethno-centric bias discarded these shamanic practices as primitive. Only until the last decade has the western scientific field again began to research the deep healing modalities hidden within these ancient traditions. It is very interesting to note, as the western academia has began to move beyond its ethno-centric bias and misplaced superiority, the so-called primitive knowledge is beginning to reveal many beneficial secrets (even backed by modern western scientific fields). One example is new research into entheo-botanicals for new types of psychiatric medicine. I am intuiting that the new strains of psychiatric drugs will be very effective for the treatment of depression and schizophrenia. The ancient botanicals work in a vastly different way to modern tranquilizers and inhibitors.

 

What to say of the broad field of human experience, and the depth and treasure concealed within the vedic tradition.

 

I feel as modern man can move beyond his ethno-centric bias, many treasures of the ancients may be re-applied as a panacea for todays ills. Those who discard the treasure hidden within ancient culture and its relevance for today are either narrow minded or ill informed. And may be missing a real treasure.

 

If the modern world takes its current course and holds the 'capitalist ideal' as the pinnacle of man's achievement it will slowly degrade. The vedic tradition is far superior than this misplaced ideal...and can bring us back to a more natural way of life...even up to the point of full realization of the absolute as a living Personality. The consequence of a mass awakening of this kind on planet earth is almost to profound to explain in words...Srila Prabhupada knew (as does our disciplic succession).

 

 

Personally I doubt it. Just do not see any evidence that this will ever happen without divine intervention or something but who knows for sure. by ancient mariner

 

What I find most beneficial for my own spiritual journey, coming in contact with eastern thought, is that life and evolution is continous for the individual soul (taking the course of its transmigration). This opens the door for firm committment to gradually choose growth as a spiritual being - eventually evolving and fully actualizing in one birth as servant to humanity. If each of us could actualize this vision and spread this way, then a 10,000 year golden age becomes not just a hope or pipedream, but instead a very achievable reality. Their is alot of hope Ancient Mariner, if we have the vision to take the call of destiny! Personally I would choose life at every crossroads and choice...and not hopelessness, degradation, and death. All great souls have taken that course.

[suchandra]

 

Their is alot of hope Ancient Mariner, if we have the vision to take the call of destiny!

Yes, the hidden hint is that Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu predicted that the holy name of the Lord would be spread to every village and town all over the world. When and how exactly this would happen only the Lord knows.

 

There're many things though where present humanity also is receiving a pat on the back what could be called enforced blessing, keyword, combustion engines. If presently 6,68 bn people would be granted their heart's desire to possess own cars powered by fossil fuel the whole planet would be so full of smog domes that hardly any sun light could pass through this damp atmosphere, vegetation not receiving enough ultraviolet energy anymore.

 

Whenever it comes to life-threatening state of emergency, people seem to accept restriction. The work of the Vaishnavas therefore is to make things visible. To actually show by example how to turn this planet into beautiful gardens where there's no more scarcity but everything in abundance.

[Amlesh]

 

Yes, the hidden hint is that Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu predicted that the holy name of the Lord would be spread to every village and town all over the world. When and how exactly this would happen only the Lord knows.

 

There're many things though where present humanity also is receiving a pat on the back what could be called enforced blessing, keyword, combustion engines. If presently 6,68 bn people would be granted their heart's desire to possess their own cars powered by fossil fuel the whole planet would be so full of smog domes that hardly any sun light could pass through this damp atmosphere, vegetation not receiving enough ultraviolet energy anymore.

 

Whenever it comes to life-threatening state of emergency, people seem to accept restriction. The work of the Vaishnavas therefore is to make things visible. To actually show by example how to turn this planet into beautiful gardens where there's no more scarcity but everything in abundance.

 

Yep, my views perfectly converge with yours.

Only a Hari Bhakta can think like that, without a tinge of self interest.

 

Jai Radhe Krishna.

[AncientMariner]

"What I find most beneficial for my own spiritual journey, coming in contact with eastern thought, is that life and evolution is continous for the individual soul (taking the course of its transmigration). This opens the door for firm committment to gradually choose growth as a spiritual being - eventually evolving and fully actualizing in one birth as servant to humanity. If each of us could actualize this vision and spread this way, then a 10,000 year golden age becomes not just a hope or pipedream, but instead a very achievable reality. Their is alot of hope Ancient Mariner, if we have the vision to take the call of destiny! Personally I would choose life at every crossroads and choice...and not hopelessness, degradation, and death. All great souls have taken that course."

 

 

Yeah I used to believe in the golden age stuff when I was a kid and still am not completely giving up hope of an eventual golden age within the Kali-yuga. Any spiritual journey is all about hope and realizing there is more than just this material world, so hope is alive and eternal for everyone who surrenders to God regardless of the condition of the material world or any hardships etc. Just do not think humans will start protecting cows unless there is a massive paradigm shift in world consciousness. From a vedic perspective it seems cow protection is the real key to ending wars between nations etc. It seems the energy crisis could actually play a part in such a shift of consciousness so there are some signs that this could be a possibility but I am not as prone to manic highs as I was when I was younger when it comes to getting my hopes up that things will change in the material world and always assume the possiblitiy that the Kali-yuga will continue on business as usual.

[bija]

 

Whenever it comes to life-threatening state of emergency, people seem to accept restriction. The work of the Vaishnavas therefore is to make things visible. To actually show by example how to turn this planet into beautiful gardens where there's no more scarcity but everything in abundance. by suchandra

from Brahma-vaivarta-purana:

bhasmi bhutani tanyeva, vaishnavalinganena ca;

trinani shushka kasthani, dahanti pavako yatha. [6] “Just as dry grass or wood is consumed by fire, simply by the embrace of these Vaishnavas all sins of the living entities will be burnt.

tathapi vaishnava loke, papani papinamapi;

prithivyam yani tirthani, punyanyapi ca jahnavi. [7]

"O Ganges (Jahnavi), the whole planet will become a most auspicious pilgrimage sight by the presence of these Vaishnavas, even though it had been very sinful in the past 5000 years.

mad bhaktanam sharireshu, santi puteshu santatam;

mad bhakta pada rajasa, sadah puta vasundhara. [8]

“In the body of My devotees, there is extraordinary potency to purify everything. Thus even Mother Earth will become purified by the dust of the feet of My devotees.

sadyah putani tirthani, sadyah putam jagat tatha;

man mantropasaka vipra, ye mad ucchishta bhojinah. [9]

“As My devotees will purify the whole world, they will purify even the pilgrimage sites. Those intelligent learned followers of the worshiper of My maha-mantra (Lord Gauranga), will only partake of My remnants (prasadam) and thus purify everything.

 

mam eva nityam dhyayante, te mat pranadhikah priyah;

tad upasparsha matrena, puto vayushca pavakah. [10]“Those who meditate on Me constantly by the chanting of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra, are more dear to Me than My very life. Even the air and fire (which are already purifiers) will become pure simply even by their indirect touch.

 

kaler dasha-sahasrani, mad bhaktah santi bhutale;

eka varna bhavishyanti, mad bhakteshu gateshu ca. [11]“For 10,000 years of Kali (which will be the Golden Age brought by the Lord in the form of Lord Gauranga Mahaprabhu), such devotees of Mine will fill the whole planet. After the departure of My devotees, all of those who will remain will be like outcastes.

 

mad bhakta shunya prithivi, kali grasta bhavishyati;

eta smin namtare tatra, krishna dehad vinirgatah. [12]“After these 10,000* years, completely devoid of My devotees, the earth will be shackled again by Kali’s strong influence (as described in the 12th Canto of the Bhagavata Purana).” Saying this, Lord Krishna departed.

 

(*Kali-yuga total duration is 432,000 years. So after 5,000 years of sinful degradation and the next 10,000 years of the Golden Age (1486 AD to 11486 AD) of Lord Gauranga Mahaprabhu as described above, the balance 417,000 years of Kali-yuga will be the most sinful period for the earth planet due to the complete domination by the personality of Kali. At the end, i.e. 427,000 years from now, the Lord will appear on a white horse in his partial incarnation of Kalki to annihilate the demons and restablish the Satya-yuga. So we are extremely fortunate to have taken birth in this Golden Age and not waste this most rare opportunity.)

 

click here for more

 

[bija]

 

It seems the energy crisis could actually play a part in such a shift of consciousness so there are some signs that this could be a possibility but I am not as prone to manic highs as I was when I was younger when it comes to getting my hopes up that things will change in the material world and always assume the possiblitiy that the Kali-yuga will continue on business as usual. by mariner

I have some friends who have experienced mania, and I have also encountered my own spiritual emergency crisis. From my own encounter this dysfunction was actually the shadow of something more latent, balanced and true of my personality. The key to that discovery is spiritual awakening on deeper levels. In the book below Srila BA Paramadvaiti Swami says: levels of consciousness are unlimited, and the human can enter new and newer levels of conscious awareness (paraphrased).

 

 

Personally I would choose life at every crossroads and choice...and not hopelessness, degradation, and death. All great souls have taken that course. posted by bija

I had the below section of Srila Paramadvaiti Swami's book 'Perennial Psychology - Oida Therapy' in mind when I made the above statement. Ancient it is a truly remarkable book, by a truly remarkable broadminded, visionary, Hare Krsna guru. He has guided his followers very well in Latin America - they have established fully functional 'natural' communities as Suchandra pointed to in his above post. I offer you my heart mate, please read the Oida Therapy book - it has blessed my life. I have met two of his disciples - one was a very balanced young lady, full of love and devotion, an amazing artist. The other was a colombian man, a doctor. The son of a shaman. A very lovely man who had found full actualization in love under the care and shelter of Srila Paramadvaiti. This gurus vision is very broad, and in that sense appeals to my own vision of Krsna consciousness beyond the limited vision. (I am not his disciple by the way - I just appreciate him as an exceptional teacher)

 

download it here: http://www.oidatherapy.org/download.htm#oida_manual

 

excerpt here:

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In “The Heart of the Man “ Fromm stated that “There is no more fundamental distinction between man, psycho.logically and morally, than the one between those who love death and those who love life.

The persons who loved life he called biophilous and those who loved death, he called necrophilous.

“This is not meant to convey that a person is necessarily either entirely necrophilous or entirely biophilous. There are, perhaps, a few who are totally devoted to death and those who are, are insane. There are not so many who are entirely devoted to life, and those who are strike us as hav.ing accomplished the highest aim man is capable of.”

With the description or rather the discovery of the life-loving (biophilous) and death-loving (necrophilous) char.acter Fromm realized two important findings of the 20th century psychology.

Although the Freudian based psychology recognized clear.ly the “death instinct” and in close connection to that a sexual perversion, called “necrophilia”, it did not recognize “life instinct” and did also not recognize the other mani.festations of the necrophilous tendencies.

Fromm stated clearly, that the man is not only driven by the death instinct, as Freud stated, but “that is inherent to living entities, to preserve its existence”. In his argu.mentation he called Spinoza for help, when he reminded us of Spinoza’s “ Ethics”. Herein Spinoza said, “everything endeavours to persist in its own being” and also : “A free man thinks of death least of all things; and his wisdom is a meditation not of death but of life.” (Ethics, IV, Prop. XLI)

Here we would like to mention that this quality strong.ly reminds us of the maintaining quality of the Hindu thought, the quality of Vishnu.

Fromm described the symptomatic essentials of the life-loving (biophilous) character.AManual on Oida Therapy 55

According to these the biophilous human being:

- has the tendency to preserve life, fight against death;

- has the tendency to integrate and unite;

- tends to fuse different and opposite entities;

- has a productive orientation;

- is attracted to the process of life;

- approach to life is functional and not mechanical.

In connection with this, Fromm states further, that there exists also a biophilic ethic. This involves a simple state.ment. The biophilic ethic “has an own principle of good and evil. Good which serves life and evil is what serves death. Joy is virtuous and sadness is sinful.” (The Heart of Man)

Fromm states further, that a death-loving orientation can take over and can dominate when “someone slowly kills the life-loving side in themselves”.

This orientation can be an orientation within a human be.ing, but also in a larger context, in a society. That means, that it is also possible that a society develops itself towards a more death loving (necrophilous) character, which means, more mechanistic, cultivates force, approaches life in an inorganic way. Societies of this kind will, of course reward more the death-loving individual activities, and the devel.opment of necrophilous character. Thus we can see that these two tendencies are present not only on an individual, but also on a social level.

How to help develop the life-loving character at individual and social levels:

This was the next, and crucial question of Fromm.

In other words, what causes a necrophilous development, how can you encourage – on an individual and on a soci.etal level – the development of biophilous tendencies?

Fromm struggled with this question, but he did not find a satisfactory answer. “…which factors make for the devel.opment of the necrophilous orientation, in general, and more specifically, for the greater or lesser intensity of the death loving orientation in a given individual or group? To this most important question I do not have a satisfactory answer…” (The Heart of Man)

The title of the pre-publication, the War within Man stress.es more the phenomena of armed war, the non-diplomatic, state-organised conflicts between nations. This resulted in a not favorable commentary by historians and other social scientists who did not seriously consider Fromm’s psycho.logical explanation about the real casual reasons of orga.nized killing, and emphasized again, that for example the reason for one of the many armed conflicts between France and Austria was, that they ‘both wanted the same thing: Italy’ (H.J. Morgenthau, sociologists). Morgenthau’s com.mentary, which remained in the arena of investigating po.litical history – did not consider discussing ‘the intrinsic plausibility and soundness of Dr. Fromm’s psychological arguments…’. Commentaries from his own field, like R.W. Menninger’s (psychiatrist) accused him of ‘being too close to theological moralisation’. Others, like P.Sorokin (sociolo.gist) in his argumentation demonstrated even a more seri.ous lack of information, when he stated: ‘many saints, like St. Francis of Assisi (…) and almost all Buddhists, begin.ning with Gautama Buddha (…) have to be put rather into the class of the necrophiliacs…’ and thus called Fromm’s theory ‘inadequate in its scientific validity’.

Thomas Merton, another commentator, pointed in his an.swer, towards the direction of spirituality, where he basi.cally answers Fromm’s most emergent question:

‘As long as man acts only as a member of the human spe.cies, within his limits as an individual subservient to the inescapable finalities of his common „nature,“ he is still subject to the deepest and most radical form of spiritual alienation. He is not fully „free“, because he is not able to transcend his specific individuality and function on the level of a spiritual person with all the perfection and au.tonomy implied by that concept.’ And further: “There is no real love of life unless it is oriented to the discovery of one’s true, spiritual self, beyond and above the level of mere empirical individuality, with its superficial enjoyments and fears.” (Thomas Merton, 1915 – 1968, Trappist monk)

 

*thomas merton is a very enlightened monk who wrote the first preface to Srila Prabhupada's Macmillan publication of Gita As It is. Merton was popular in the sixties.

[bija]

He has guided his followers very well in Latin America - they have established fully functional 'natural' communities. Suchandra pointed what is possible and what is the duty of vaisnava, in his above post. by bija

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[suchandra]

The videos look all nice and inspiring. But I personnally know at least 30 Vaishnavas leaving everything behind and sincerely trying to join that particular matha in South America, but all came back saying without being a local disciple you cannot become integrated.

[bija]

I could imagine Suchandra...intergrating in a new culture is a huge thing. Years ago I lived in Latin America for maybe 6 months in total...these days being a more aware conscious person things may not be so simple.

 

It is even difficult to integrate into our own societies and live spiritual...it would be awesome if we had facility close to our familiar home. I pray that if we ask God for such gift he may grant the way oneday:pray:. A nice little circle would be fine.

[Virakrsna]

 

Sometimes one who is very alert so as not to commit sinful acts is victimized by sinful life again. I therefore consider this process of repeated sinning and atoning to be useless. It is like the bathing of an elephant, for an elephant cleanses itself by taking a full bath, but then throws dust over its head and body as soon as it returns to the land.

 

When Parīkshit Mahārāja inquired how a human being could free himself from sinful activities so as not to be forced to go to hellish planetary systems after death, Śukadeva Gosvāmī answered that the process of counteracting sinful life is atonement. In this way Śukadeva Gosvāmī tested the intelligence of Mahārāja Parīkshit, who passed the examination by refusing to accept this process as genuine. Now Parīkshit Mahārāja is expecting another answer from his spiritual master, Śukadeva Gosvāmī.

 

Śukadeva Gosvāmī, the son of Vedavyāsa, answered: My dear King, since acts meant to neutralize impious actions are also fruitive, they will not release one from the tendency to act fruitively. Persons who subject themselves to the rules and regulations of atonement are not at all intelligent. Indeed, they are in the mode of darkness. Unless one is freed from the mode of ignorance, trying to counteract one action through another is useless because this will not uproot one’s desires. Thus even though one may superficially seem pious, he will undoubtedly be prone to act impiously. Therefore real atonement is enlightenment in perfect knowledge, Vedānta, by which one understands the Supreme Absolute Truth.

 

This is an important point bija reveals.

[Bishadi]

 

The videos look all nice and inspiring. But I personnally know at least 30 Vaishnavas leaving everything behind and sincerely trying to join that particular matha in South America, but all came back saying without being a local disciple you cannot become integrated.

 

 

sounds familiar with most sects of faith

 

seems leadership like to maintain control

 

doesn't that sound familiar?

 

 

 

so in a sense, often the faithful are specifically opposing 'God's Will'.....

 

i.e..... consumption of meat; Life evolved within God, naturally, but man incorporated his own pursuits of what faith or even the definitions of life itself.

 

So when someone suggests, the cow is the nerve center of life on earth....

 

please observe the world and find she is just that; to most of the human species on this earth.

 

so the writing is good; but the understanding is blinded in faith

 

Ignoring what God has laid in foundation is often opposing to God's will; but it is of men/women who dilute the realities with the mask of service, riding the horse of pride, swinging the sword of deceit.

 

Oh be certain, the last avatar will mow down the ignorant without even a look back to see them buried.

 

Likewise, faith will be vindicated with truth; yet removed as the guide of teaching. The religious right will reap the greatest of the heat; they will be no more.

[Bishadi]

 

Sometimes one who is very alert so as not to commit sinful acts is victimized by sinful life again. I therefore consider this process of repeated sinning and atoning to be useless. It is like the bathing of an elephant, for an elephant cleanses itself by taking a full bath, but then throws dust over its head and body as soon as it returns to the land.

 

 

i agree.....

 

and why the idea of reincarnation is often abused with false premise of beliefs

 

to reincarnate means; we live in what we do

 

i.e... every idea, action and imposition geared from a previous teacher, is him reincarnated to the corporeal.