PrinceGoutham and Bhaktajan, official thread

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

I've never said that it's wrong in Worshipping Shiva.

I do it myself every Monday at the nearest Shivalaya from my place.

 

I was refering about the Supremacy.

 

But you should ask, what I demand at Lord Shivas Lotus Feet?

You said that Bhaktajan was right in his opinions and ramblings. Bhaktajan thinks it's wrong to worship Shiva and that you can't express bhakti to Shiva. Don't say you agree with someone if you don't know what they're actually saying.

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

Dear friends that was my last post concerning the Supremacy Issue...

 

I no longer wish to jump and dance like a monkey when I see the banana topic of Supremacy.

Is that because there's no proof for either one being supreme over the other?

[bhaktajan]

I do not think it is wrong to worship Shiva!

 

Shiva has approx 84% [86%?] of same potencies as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Narayan/Vishnu/Krishna.

 

***You may worship any one or anything and make an idol of any ista-deva or Pop-culture-Icon, but, it will not yield moksha/mukti/liberation/salvation/deliverance to the 'Kingdom of God'.

 

What ever attributes you may apply to Lord Shiva's Mystic Opulences, I remind you that all Residences of Vaikuntha are worshipable too.

 

For example, Sudhama, Krishna's childhood Gopa friend in the transcendental cowherd village of Vraja-Vrindavana-Goloka-Dhama is lightyears beyond all the Devas.

 

Yet you purport to say that a Devata is the aim of the MYSTERY OF LIFE.

 

You must keep you faith as it is regardless of nay sayers for we are encouraged by Krishna's many re-assuring words***:

 

***This is what Krishna refers to when Krishna speaks in the Gita 3.26:

"So as not to disrupt the minds of ignorant men attached to the fruitive results of prescribed duties, a learned person should not induce them to stop work. Rather, by working in the spirit of devotion, he should engage them in all sorts of activities [for the gradual development of Krishna Consciousness]".

 

and,

 

Gita 3.29:

"Bewildered by the modes of material nature, the ignorant fully engage themselves in material activities and become attached. But the wise should not unsettle them, although these duties are inferior due to the performers’ lack of knowledge."

...............................................................................

These verses are Krishna's Teachings as to those who do not yet know the conclusion of the Vedas, 'Devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Narayan/Vishnu/Krishna'

 

....................................................................

Again I repeat, that the Devas are an extended family-tree

delineated in The Srimad-Bhagavatam, and,

that once that Family-tree is charted-out,

all the Puaranas, etc., can be hung like Christmas-tree Decorations,

thus, plotting the chronological order of the appearence of the names of the Family-tree Personalities and, ipso facto,

the order in which each Purana debuts

in the time-line of history

that started with Brahma's

Birth & each of Brahma's Daily awakenings.

[RadhaMukunda]

 

Shiva has approx 84% [86%?] of same potencies as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Narayan/Vishnu/Krishna.

 

I heard from my guru who got it from shastra that came from brahma that it is actually 85.965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741%

[bhaktajan]

Look face the truth!

 

You don't know OUR Sastra.

 

Apparently, We don't know YOUR Sastra.

 

So lets agree that we belong to different schools of thought.

 

IOW, If you don't know my sastric references then I shouldn't be quoting them to you.

 

 

 

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-- SOUND EFFECT: Locomotive Cargo Train screeching to a halt. --

 

 

 

 

#######################################################

 

 

Actually you stumbled on to something Profound!

 

The endless finite sub-dividing direction that you sought to illustrate may actually ring true as correct.

 

Shiva's approx 86% Potency of Full-Godhead-ship certainly falls short of the Supreme Personality of Godhead's 1,001% Potency-in-full.

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead's 1,001% Potency-in-full opulence extends outward toward the "Infinite" to fill the spiritual and material skys;

 

whereas,

 

Lord Shiva's Potency can/could/is free to reach almost full opulences in the opposite direction toward the "Finite". No?

 

Hmmmm? See what happens when you earnestly debate to the point of exhaustion? Or is it just me?

.

[RadhaMukunda]

I am just making fun, I told you that I had no interest in arguing with you.

[bhaktajan]

Wait a second there Buster ji,

 

Wasn't it I who first said, "I had no interest in arguing with you"?

 

Are you quoting me now to make you points?

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

I do not think it is wrong to worship Shiva!

 

Shiva has approx 84% [86%?] of same potencies as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Narayan/Vishnu/Krishna.

 

***You may worship any one or anything and make an idol of any ista-deva or Pop-culture-Icon, but, it will not yield moksha/mukti/liberation/salvation/deliverance to the 'Kingdom of God'.

 

What ever attributes you may apply to Lord Shiva's Mystic Opulences, I remind you that all Residences of Vaikuntha are worshipable too.

 

For example, Sudhama, Krishna's childhood Gopa friend in the transcendental cowherd village of Vraja-Vrindavana-Goloka-Dhama is lightyears beyond all the Devas.

 

Yet you purport to say that a Devata is the aim of the MYSTERY OF LIFE.

 

You must keep you faith as it is regardless of nay sayers for we are encouraged by Krishna's many re-assuring words***:

 

***This is what Krishna refers to when Krishna speaks in the Gita 3.26:

"So as not to disrupt the minds of ignorant men attached to the fruitive results of prescribed duties, a learned person should not induce them to stop work. Rather, by working in the spirit of devotion, he should engage them in all sorts of activities [for the gradual development of Krishna Consciousness]".

 

and,

 

Gita 3.29:

"Bewildered by the modes of material nature, the ignorant fully engage themselves in material activities and become attached. But the wise should not unsettle them, although these duties are inferior due to the performers’ lack of knowledge."

...............................................................................

These verses are Krishna's Teachings as to those who do not yet know the conclusion of the Vedas, 'Devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Narayan/Vishnu/Krishna'

 

....................................................................

Again I repeat, that the Devas are an extended family-tree

delineated in The Srimad-Bhagavatam, and,

that once that Family-tree is charted-out,

all the Puaranas, etc., can be hung like Christmas-tree Decorations,

thus, plotting the chronological order of the appearence of the names of the Family-tree Personalities and, ipso facto,

the order in which each Purana debuts

in the time-line of history

that started with Brahma's

Birth & each of Brahma's Daily awakenings.

Where in the Gita does Sri Krishna say, "If you worship Shiva, you don't get Moksha." ???

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

IOW, If you don't know my sastric references then I shouldn't be quoting them to you.

 

LOL, you're only saying that b/c you have no shastric evidence for your bigoted opinions. If you did, you'd give us quotes from the Puranas, the Gita, the Vedas, and the Upanishads to support your opinion. However, none of them support it, so you can't prove it.

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

I heard from my guru who got it from shastra that came from brahma that it is actually 85.965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741965844236515752368489294485545455452698564753158998855544141475369992225458963255447741%

Really? My guru, who is, likewise, descended from Brahma, told me that Krishna only had 82.12313216546548947984165132146549847948411465489489468445876487465544163516549864786465654475146556745484788668416541645466845486645467465741655447165544854468454361565464686498748644765541765454665454798454674145651765547655447655441765544176545476458774546784546876454745475447645417695487454874158674458478654468954478657445657415465154865445864546561234+9646198347465547655474659+87465464745987475498744574465745498778979457495484665544354164474554459877546176536445566745897445316745867745445487549648675475154375445674458456471435213452465546478945645467154372516554577895447546517355417655447698547745894754671655477459879785464765451798547798457465451768457798457764547465847495877456574465475498774598775477549877459874656641546745546574549877546745465745487454897445674457698547454984784574546745547854977549847545754547564748594779548774589477459775498778549877547895477984547765447554316544798547754984645746554543254785477984577459877895477985477984574765454746554789547758944779857746587987579845774756775468775498778548947546544567554443447586477984577458977459877549877549774598774598779854476455165454798547754987448974044579804598740457984570954470547054079854470544045047945470954440759097845470547507517019451045941504544784540570540450474550165175017501701456015017611451057075417154710750416175601450165400541760145104565154651054651074104617106415171554175154156451654517465170546517401764507156541765406545176054167504754561745566546576545675456574516571655416574561576554716544176545176515465715465176545176451655417655417615417655417456571546157516541656551745176545145615455115714551751665145615546155615461765541765515441231564897894561351654987685143216548979874789445394564515654165434665142361346564439864439864461643616654466843476893476984746834466543166541396844398679847643984636516641564468943765984345654646541665714983449834658944646654466544166134651687798766454665344665434689436984366666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666661111111166666% of Lord Shiva's qualities!

And, Lord Shiva only has 84.164149649848498458946798454179854417644565468945496845476514654178945469844598641546571645547895447985417654517985441978544179844517651456574854974984547145175469479854475948471541745964179854417984541761549+87454987445987641654517655417695441798451745637414587454987445987414987546474594714547169544176441676554176554479845494851456237165547445985744598474567165457145657145637454987445987445978445987445974549845479847984541765541732174987498457498% of Devi's qualities!

And, She only has 99.15641864894861106165498498469416116316849847987456152416341649847984654984498431349879897643549887984351679876468434168798% of Lord Brahma's qualities!

[Amlesh]

 

You said that Bhaktajan was right in his opinions and ramblings. Bhaktajan thinks it's wrong to worship Shiva and that you can't express bhakti to Shiva. Don't say you agree with someone if you don't know what they're actually saying.

 

To be more precise, it is the Supremacy of Raja Ram that is the reconciliation factor.

[Amlesh]

 

Is that because there's no proof for either one being supreme over the other?

 

No. But fighting to prove the Supremacy of Raja Ram will have the secondary effect in putting low the dearest of Raja Ram.

 

In the very beginning, when I registered myself in Audarya, I made this comment.

 

But no one is ready to listen. In this so-called debate, only the defamation of both will be heard, irrespective of whoever might be right.

 

All of you, continue with your monkey business, I'm out.

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

No. But fighting to prove the Supremacy of Raja Ram will have the secondary effect in putting low the dearest of Raja Ram.

 

In the very beginning, when I registered myself in Audarya, I made this comment.

 

But no one is ready to listen. In this so-called debate, only the defamation of both will be heard, irrespective of whoever might be right.

 

All of you, continue with your monkey business, I'm out.

So, you think that Lord Rama is supreme over all deities, but you aren't going to argue your case? You're just going to say it and not provide evidence?

[Amlesh]

 

So, you think that Lord Rama is supreme over all deities, but you aren't going to argue your case? You're just going to say it and not provide evidence?

 

What's the use of providing evidence when Lord Rama is in front of you, if you are blind, that's not my fault.

 

If you need quotes to know the Supremacy of Sri Rama then I can't help you...

 

The only process is wait for His Mercy, in the meantime continue with your good Karma, amass a lot Punya till He sees you and decide that it's time to enlighten you.

 

I've heard and know that thousands of Sheshas and Saraswatis cannot recount His Glories and you want me to give evidence about His Supremacy.

Do you think it is as easy as that. Wait for His mercy.

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

What's the use of providing evidence when Lord Rama is in front of you, if you are blind, that's not my fault.

 

If you need quotes to know the Supremacy of Sri Rama then I can't help you...

 

The only process is wait for His Mercy, in the meantime continue with your good Karma, amass a lot Punya till He sees you and decide that it's time to enlighten you.

 

I've heard and know that thousands of Sheshas and Saraswatis cannot recount His Glories and you want me to give evidence about His Supremacy.

Do you think it is as easy as that. Wait for His mercy.

No evidence, just emotion.

[Amlesh]

 

No evidence, just emotion.

Take it as you like...

 

But I'll give you a hint...

 

I've never searched for any evidence, but it came by itself to me.

 

I suppose you are unaware of the Bhagvata Doctrine; if you have read then it means you have not understood or misunderstood; all the evidences are there.

 

It took 7 seven days for Sukadev Goswami to explain that to Maharaj Parikshit and you are asking me that in a Forum.

 

Good Lord, I know I'm not even worth to touch the dust of the Lotus Feet of Sukadev but you also can't be a better student than Maharaj Parikshit.

 

If you cannot see the absolute truth, it does not mean that I'm emotional, it means you are ignorant.

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

Take it as you like...

 

But I'll give you a hint...

 

I've never searched for any evidence, but it came by itself to me.

 

I suppose you are unaware of the Bhagvata Doctrine; if you have read then it means you have not understood or misunderstood; all the evidences are there.

 

It took 7 seven days for Sukadev Goswami to explain that to Maharaj Parikshit and you are asking me that in a Forum.

 

Good Lord, I know I'm not even worth to touch the dust of the Lotus Feet of Sukadev but you also can't be a better student than Maharaj Parikshit.

 

If you cannot see the absolute truth, it does not mean that I'm emotional, it means you are ignorant.

You are still only speaking from emotion. You admit that you have no proof. That means that you are speaking solely from emotion, which proves nothing. Shaivas will emotionally tell you that Shiva is absolute truth. Are they right? Shaktas will emotionally tell you that Shakti is the absolute truth. Are they right? You (a Vaishnava) are emotionally telling me that Lord Rama is the absolute truth without evidence to speak of. Why should I believe you over a Shaiva or Shakta, since you are all speaking solely from emotion and not from evidence?

[Amlesh]

 

You are still only speaking from emotion. You admit that you have no proof. That means that you are speaking solely from emotion, which proves nothing. Shaivas will emotionally tell you that Shiva is absolute truth. Are they right? Shaktas will emotionally tell you that Shakti is the absolute truth. Are they right? You (a Vaishnava) are emotionally telling me that Lord Rama is the absolute truth without evidence to speak of. Why should I believe you over a Shaiva or Shakta, since you are all speaking solely from emotion and not from evidence?

 

And since when did I ask you to believe me.

 

I also gave you the answer in my previous post. The answer is found in Srimad Bhagvatam. All the evidences are there.

 

Again if it took 7 days to teach Bhagvata, that too the best teacher and best student. How can I, a person not having the quality of a teacher teach to the most foolish of student.

Ok, in that case, I've let my emotion flow.

 

Don't ask for something that is not possible.

[Amlesh]

By the way, don't ask me evidence about your foolishness.

 

It's too evident.

[Amlesh]

Sorry RadheyRadhey for being stupid and rude.

 

One of the most important aspect of Vaishavism is to be silent, I feel that it is the most beautiful rule.

 

Sorry again.

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

And since when did I ask you to believe me.

 

You say things without providing evidence. I'm just wondering where you get your ideas from. You haven't told me.

 

 

I also gave you the answer in my previous post. The answer is found in Srimad Bhagvatam. All the evidences are there.

 

Where does it say 'Shiva is a demigod who is less than Vishnu/Rama/Krishna'? What is the exact verse that says that all gods other than Vishnu are demigods?

 

 

Again if it took 7 days to teach Bhagvata, that too the best teacher and best student. How can I, a person not having the quality of a teacher teach to the most foolish of student.

 

You clearly can't teach anything, since you obviously have no evidence to supply.

 

 

Ok, in that case, I've let my emotion flow.

 

Yes, that's because you speak solely from emotion on these issues.

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

By the way, don't ask me evidence about your foolishness.

 

It's too evident.

You're the one making baseless claims.

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

Sorry RadheyRadhey for being stupid and rude.

 

One of the most important aspect of Vaishavism is to be silent, I feel that it is the most beautiful rule.

 

Sorry again.

Your snippy comments didn't get to me. I realize that you can speak only from emotion since you have no evidence.

[bhaktajan]

I try to spare you un-pleasant truths so as to let live as blissfully innocents do, but you keep asking for medicine:

SB 1.2.26:

Those who are serious about liberation are certainly nonenvious, and they respect all. Yet they reject the horrible and ghastly forms of the demigods and worship only the all-blissful forms of Lord Viñëu and His plenary portions.

SB 11.2.6:

Those who worship the demigods receive reciprocation from the demigods in a way just corresponding to the offering. The demigods are attendants of karma, like a person’s shadow, but sädhus are actually merciful to the fallen.

SB 3.2.37:

O gentle one, of all the physical elements, beginning from the sky down to the earth, all the inferior and superior qualities are due only to the final touch of the glance of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

SB 3.28.22:

The blessed Lord Çiva becomes all the more blessed by bearing on his head the holy waters of the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comGanges</st1:place>, which has its source in the water that washed the Lord’s lotus feet. The Lord’s feet act like thunderbolts hurled to shatter the mountain of sin stored in the mind of the meditating devotee. One should therefore meditate on the lotus feet of the Lord for a long time.</b>

<font face=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Ganges</st1:place>, which has its source in the water that washed the Lord’s lotus feet. The Lord’s feet act like thunderbolts hurled to shatter the mountain of sin stored in the mind of the meditating devotee. One should therefore meditate on the lotus feet of the Lord for a long time.

PURPORT

In this verse the position of Lord Çiva is specifically mentioned. The impersonalist suggests that the Absolute Truth has no form and that one can therefore equally imagine the form of Viñëu or Lord Çiva or the goddess Durgä or their son Gaëeça.

But actually the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the supreme master of everyone. In the Caitanya-caritämåta (Ädi 5.142) it is said, ekale éçvara kåñëa, ara saba bhåtya: the Supreme Lord is Kåñëa, and everyone else, including Lord Çiva and Lord Brahmä—not to mention other demigods—is a servant of Kåñëa.

The same principle is described here. Lord Çiva is important because he is holding on his head the holy Ganges water, which has its origin in the foot-wash of Lord Viñëu. In the Hari-bhakti-viläsa, by Sanätana Gosvämé, it is said that anyone who puts the Supreme Lord and the demigods, including Lord Çiva and Lord Brahmä, on the same level, at once becomes a päñaëòé, or atheist. We should never consider that the Supreme Lord Viñëu and the demigods are on an equal footing.

Another significant point of this verse is that the mind of the conditioned soul, on account of its association with the material energy from time immemorial, contains heaps of dirt in the form of desires to lord it over material nature. This dirt is like a mountain, but a mountain can be shattered when hit by a thunderbolt.

Meditating on the lotus feet of the Lord acts like a thunderbolt on the mountain of dirt in the mind of the yogé. If a yogé wants to shatter the mountain of dirt in his mind, he should concentrate on the lotus feet of the Lord and not imagine something void or impersonal. Because the dirt has accumulated like a solid mountain, one must meditate on the lotus feet of the Lord for quite a long time.

For one who is accustomed to thinking of the lotus feet of the Lord constantly, however, it is a different matter. The devotees are so fixed on the lotus feet of the Lord that they do not think of anything else. Those who practice the yoga system must meditate on the lotus feet of the Lord for a long time after following the regulative principles and thereby controlling the senses.

It is specifically mentioned here, bhagavataç caraëäravindam: one has to think of the lotus feet of the Lord. The Mäyävädés imagine that one can think of the lotus feet of Lord Çiva or Lord Brahmä or the goddess Durgä to achieve liberation, but this is not so. Bhagavataù is specifically mentioned.

Bhagavataù means “of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Viñëu,” and no one else. Another significant phrase in this verse is çivaù çivo ’bhüt. By his constitutional position, Lord Çiva is always great and auspicious, but since he has accepted on his head the Ganges water, which emanated from the lotus feet of the Lord, he has become even more auspicious and important. The stress is on the lotus feet of the Lord. A relationship with the lotus feet of the Lord can even enhance the importance of Lord Çiva, what to speak of other, ordinary living entities.

SB 4.19.22 Purport:

. . . Vedic literature states that a person who puts Lord Näräyaëa on the level with Lord Çiva or Lord Brahmä immediately becomes a päkhaëòé. As stated in the Puräëas:

 

 

 

yas tu näräyaëaà devaà

 

 

 

 

brahma-rudrädi-daivataiù

 

 

 

 

samatvenaiva vékñeta

 

sa päñaëòé bhaved dhruvam

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In Kali-yuga the päkhaëòés are very prominent. However, Lord Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu has tried to kill all these päkhaëòés by introducing His saìkértana movement. Those who take advantage of this saìkértana movement of the International Society for <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Consciousness will be able to save themselves from the influence of these päkhaëòés.

SB 4.19.23 Purport:

. . . In the Vaiñëava Tantra it is said:

 

yas tu näräyaëaà devaà

 

 

brahma-rudrädi-daivataiù

 

 

samatvenaiva vékñeta

sa päñaëòé bhaved dhruvam

 

Although it is forbidden, there are many päñaëòés who coin terms like daridra-näräyaëa and svämi-näräyaëa, although not even such demigods as Brahmä and Çiva can be equal to Näräyaëa.

SB 4.30.24 Purport:

. . . One should therefore not think that Lord Viñëu is in the same category with Lord Brahmä and Çiva. The çästras forbid us to think in this way.

 

yas tu näräyaëaà devaà

 

 

brahma-rudrädi-daivataiù

 

 

samatvenaiva vékñeta

sa päñaëòé bhaved dhruvam

 

One who considers Lord Viñëu to be in the same category with devas like Lord Brahmä or Lord Çiva or who thinks Lord Brahmä and Çiva to be equal to Lord Viñëu is to be considered as päñaëòé (a faithless nonbeliever). Therefore in this verse Lord Viñëu is distinguished in the words namo viçuddha-sattväya. Although a living entity like us, Lord Brahmä is exalted due to his pious activities; therefore he is given the high post of Brahmä. Lord Çiva is not actually like a living entity, but he is not the Supreme Personality of Godhead. His position is somewhere between Viñëu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and Brahmä, the living entity. Lord Çiva is therefore explained in Brahma-saàhitä (5.45) in this way:

 

kñéraà yathä dadhi vikära-viçeña-yogät

 

 

saïjäyate na hi tataù påthag <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">asti</st1:place></st1:City> hetoù

 

 

yaù çambhutäm api tathä samupaiti käryäd

govindam ädi-puruñaà tam ahaà bhajämi

 

Lord Çiva is considered to be like yogurt (dadhi). Yogurt is nothing but transformed milk; nonetheless, yogurt cannot be accepted as milk. Similarly, Lord Çiva holds almost all the powers of Lord Viñëu, and he is also above the qualities of the living entity, but he is not exactly like Viñëu, just as yogurt, although transformed milk, is not exactly like milk.

The Supreme Personality of Godhead is also described herein as väsudeväya kåñëäya. Kåñëa is the original Supreme Personality of Godhead, and all Viñëu expansions are His plenary portions or portions of His plenary portions (known as sväàça and kalä).

SB 11.5.32

 

kåñëa-varëaà tviñäkåñëaà

 

 

säìgopäìgästra-pärñadam

 

 

yajïaiù saìkértana-präyair

yajanti hi su-medhasaù

SYNONYMS

 

kåñëa-varëam—repeating the syllables kåñ-ëa; tviñä—with a luster; akåñëam—not black (golden); sa-aìga—along with associates; upa-aìga—servitors; astra—weapons; pärñadam—confidential companions; yajïaiù—by sacrifice; saìkértana-präyaiù—consisting chiefly of congregational chanting; yajanti—they worship; hi—certainly; su-medhasaù—intelligent persons.

 

TRANSLATION

 

In the age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of Kåñëa. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Kåñëa Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions.

 

[RadheyRadhey108]

Once again, none of the verses say "Lord Shiva is a demigod".