Does 'free will' Exist?

[Bart Happel]

L.S.,

 

After reading the much inspiring book ‘The Science of Self-Realisation by/about A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami', I am (for now) left with one question: Since all human souls in the relative material world have a choice to enter the absolute realm of Krishna through the development of Krishna-consciousness, ‘free will’ must exist. However, it is also stated in this book that Krishna sees the future (as well as the past and the present) of our (material) existence, which implies that we do not have a choice and that free will does not exist. Can someone explain this apparent contradiction?

 

Could it be that Krishna 'only' sees (multiple) 'possible' or 'likely' futures? And do other books (e.g., the 'Bhagavad gita') say anything about this specific issue?

 

Kind regards,

 

Bart

[bija]

Hi Bart,

 

here is something I read today in a book written by one of Srila Prabhupada's disciples. When I read it I thought of your question, and considered this quote may open further discussion on this thread to shed more light.

 

 

There are three modes of material nature and all the living

beings are conditioned by these modes. In Vedic scriptures,

these influences – ignorance, passion and goodness – are mentioned again and again. They produce all kinds of natures and behavior in man. We can compare them to three colors: red, blue and yellow. By mixing these colors, we can create innumerable other colors. The same way, by mixing the three modes of material nature, all the different types of appearances and experiences are created.

It is in the mode of goodness that a living entity can get clarity about their position in this material world. Goodness

in its unadulterated form is, so to say, the healthy state. From there, by mixing with activities and influences from the lower modes (passion and ignorance), we experience

diseased conditions. However, the mode of goodness as such, is also not perfect. That is why the evolution of consciousness goes far beyond that of just being a good person in this world. The healing circle is the common reservoir of all the good qualities, and everyone following a mystical path seriously, can acquire some of these qualities.

(see CD13)

The more we are entangled by the modes of nature, the less is our power of free will. But even when we are in the modes of darkness and passion, still there are choices to be made. The principle choice is whether we are willing to move towards the mode of goodness or not.

from the book Oida Therapy: http://www.oidatherapy.org/download.htm#oida_manual

 

 

The more we are conditioned, the more we are bound, and prone to behave in a set way (as far as I understand it). Maybe living in accord with God's will is real free will, in that our own full actualization in love will be manifest. Our creative potency will then be dovetailed with Higher (intelligent) Will.

[srikanthdk71]

 

L.S.,

 

However, it is also stated in this book that Krishna sees the future (as well as the past and the present) of our (material) existence, which implies that we do not have a choice and that free will does not exist. Can someone explain this apparent contradiction?

 

Bart

 

Maharaj, if something called Sankalpa exists, it is nothing but Free Will. Sankalpa is the Thought arising from conciousness and you will carry it out under any adversity. In the same way, when the conciousness is focussed on Kaala (time), you can also perceive the past, present and future because your conciousness is Kaalateet (not bound by time). Many have demonstrated this in the past also and even in the present. A choice leads to dilemma. Be choiceless. Realise the conciousness within you. You can do miracles for yourself.

[bija]

 

A choice leads to dilemma. Be choiceless. Realise the conciousness within you. You can do miracles for yourself. by sri

sri could you please explain a little more about this choiceless state of liberation....this state of being you talk about? and what does one do in that state of presence?

 

why I ask is this. firstly I do not have that emptiness, secondly if a person is at some level of conscious awareness will speaking of these satori states you have found, benefit him...or would a more pragmatic teaching benefit the seeker? (exercising our free will here:))

[Bart Happel]

Thank you for your thoughtful reactions.

 

Perhaps my original question boils down to another question: Is it possible for any (spiritual) being to see the (material) future?

 

If so, the material world must be completely deterministic, and the (free) spiritual world must be completely detached from the material world (in order for the material world to remain deterministic). But apparently the latter is not the case..

[Bart Happel]

Allow me to explain.

 

My question is sincere. I’m very much inspired by the Krishna-conscious view of reality. As far back as I can remember, I felt a fundamental detachment from the material world in the sense that ‘I do not really belong here’. I never found a religious system of idea’s that so clearly corresponds with this personal intuition and my sense of truth.

 

I also am profoundly interested in psychology and quantum physics, and I’m convinced that ultimately quantum physical phenomena are the key to understanding consciousness. However, I do agree with Einstein that our probabilistic quantum mechanical models must be wrong or at least incomplete: “God doesn’t play dice”. So, I’m inclined to accept the idea that the complex quantum physical whole that we call reality is in fact completely deterministic.

 

In my view, quantum mechanics is nothing more than an incomplete model of quantum physical reality, corresponding only to our incomplete perception of reality. Alternatively, more complete mathematical models can be conceived. In complex systems theory, for example, models exist that describe a complex oscillation of a point in a multi-dimensional ‘state-space’. At any moment in time the position of this point in state-space is precisely determined as a function of its previous position. Nevertheless, its trajectory may be highly erratic or ‘chaotic’. Typically, however, there are ‘attracting’ regions in the state-space where the point resides more frequently than in other regions. To see this order or structure, one can construct a so called ‘phase-projection’ of the system. To do this, basically one defines a low-dimensional ‘hyper-plane’ through the state-space on which the intersections of the trajectory of the point with the hyper-plane are plotted. In some chaotic systems, highly intricate ‘self-similar’ structures then emerge. Such structures are called fractals. A well known example of a fractal is the ‘Mandelbrot fractal’.

 

I like to think that our limited perception of reality can be compared with such a phase-projection. In this view, seemingly random quantum physical events represent the intersections of a complex high-dimensional oscillation with the low- dimensional hyper-plane of our perceived world. In such a model, the complex underlying system that defines reality can never be fully known on the basis of its perceptual projection.

 

Another method to construct and visualize the attractor of a chaotic system, is to plot the position of the point in state-space at ‘timed intervals’ (Edit: e.g., at every 10000 iterations of the system). This also produces a low-dimensional phase-projection. And when the interval is changed, the projection will qualitatively change.

 

Maybe, analogously, the evolution of our consciousness has something to do with a change of the frequency of our perception. And our Free Will might be limited to induce such a change.

 

Finally, although a chaotic system as described above is characterized by a relatively stable complex attractor, the system never exactly repeats itself. Its trajectory in state-space may be orderly, but all emergent structure is infinitely diverse and infinitely changing over time. This implies that although the system (reality) is completely deterministic, its future can never be predicted with certainty.

[shvu]

 

Finally, although chaotic system as described above is characterized by a relatively stable complex attractor, the system never exactly repeats itself. Its trajectory may be ordered, but all emergent structure is infinitely diverse and infinitely changing over time. This notion implies that although the system (reality) is completely deterministic, its future can never be predicted with certainty.

How does this align with the concept of an omniscient God? We will draw some examples from the famous Bhagavad Gita. Krishna says he knows the past, present & the future. If he knows my future, then the choices I will eventually make are already known beforehand to someone (Krishna). Then how is that freewill? Here is the clash between freewill and the concept of an omniscient God. The two cannot be true at the same time. If we choose the freewill route, then we are placing serious limitations on the abilities of The Lord, as he is clueless about the future. He knows only the past and the present, but not the future which directly contradicts the Gita verse.

The way I see it, there is no free will at all. Any perceived free will is apparent only. Again going back to the Gita, at one point Krishna tells Arjuna that if even if he does desire to go to war, he will do so anyway, bound by the duties born of his nature. The Lord resides in the hearts of all beings, controlling their actions as though they were mounted on a machine.

 

This practically rules out the concept of freewill. Then one can argue the purpose of the Gita. Why did Krishna bother to tell him anything at all, if Arjuna was going to fight anyway? The only resolution I see is, the impression of freewill exists, but it is not real. The Dvaita School has an interesting way of explaining the concept of action and result. They say action and result should be seen independent of each other as the individual cannot be the cause of either on his own.

 

So is there any underlying deeper logic and/or purpose behind the whole thing? It is incredibly important for people to believe there is something super-special happening under the hoods, and they are on their way to a better world. To them, theistic choices like heaven, etc., appear very attractive. But in reality, we have no way of knowing if any of this is true.

 

We can never know if freewill exists and we can never know if there is something beyond what we perceive at this moment.

 

Cheers

 

[Bart Happel]

 

 

How does this align with the concept of an omniscient God? We will draw some examples from the famous Bhagavad Gita. Krishna says he knows the past, present & the future. If he knows my future, then the choices I will eventually make are already known beforehand to someone (Krishna). Then how is that freewill? Here is the clash between freewill and the concept of an omniscient God. The two cannot be true at the same time. If we choose the freewill route, then we are placing serious limitations on the abilities of The Lord, as he is clueless about the future. He knows only the past and the present, but not the future which directly contradicts the Gita verse.

The way I see it, there is no free will at all. Any perceived free will is apparent only. Again going back to the Gita, at one point Krishna tells Arjuna that if even if he does desire to go to war, he will do so anyway, bound by the duties born of his nature. The Lord resides in the hearts of all beings, controlling their actions as though they were mounted on a machine.

 

This practically rules out the concept of freewill. Then one can argue the purpose of the Gita. Why did Krishna bother to tell him anything at all, if Arjuna was going to fight anyway? The only resolution I see is, the impression of freewill exists, but it is not real. The Dvaita School has an interesting way of explaining the concept of action and result. They say action and result should be seen independent of each other as the individual cannot be the cause of either on his own.

 

So is there any underlying deeper logic and/or purpose behind the whole thing? It is incredibly important for people to believe there is something super-special happening under the hoods, and they are on their way to a better world. To them, theistic choices like heaven, etc., appear very attractive. But in reality, we have no way of knowing if any of this is true.

 

We can never know if freewill exists and we can never know if there is something beyond what we perceive at this moment.

 

Cheers

 

Indeed, without ‘free will’ there is no paradox, and without an ‘omniscient God’ there is no paradox. And both cannot be true at the same time. So which route is true? (Note that both routes fit into the model I presented in my previous post). Personally I would like to incorporate ‘Free Will for all’ into my universe! What’s so important about being able to see the exact future anyway?

 

And as I said earlier in another topic: Suppose that we were able to answer questions about our own existence and the existence of God, in exact mathematical language. The behavior of such ‘formal models’ will (necessarily) be much simpler than the reality we perceive, but they still might show equivalent dynamics that can be seen and ultimately understood by many people. Such a model may convince many people of the existence of God and their own spiritual position! (See topic: Spritual Discussions / I would like to start a new spiritual language).

[HARRY]

These are two ways of looking at the reality.

Everything is NOT predestined on one level

Everything IS predestined on another.

 

Any one way is not superior or inferior to another. Now we are moving away from classical mechanics to quantum mechanics.

A particle supposedly exists at one place and time. A wave exists at all places at the same time. There is a very interesting relationship between the speeds of a particle and its wave. The product of the two speeds is c x c , where c is the speed of light. It follows that if the speed of the particle is v , which is less than c, then the speed of the wave has to be larger than c so that their product remains the same. Now another very interesting point comes up.

Any thing going slower than the speed of light has to go forward in time, into future. And, any thing moving faster than light has to go back in time, into past.

So now we have a dilemma. A description of the particle is saying, the particle is moving slower than light and going into future. Another equally valid description says the wave is going into past. Both are same, both are valid representations! One is moving into disorder; this is the material part.

The other is moving into order; this is the wave part. The paradoxical fact is that both are happening at the same time.

Everything is NOT predestined on one level

Everything IS predestined on another.

For example, Maha-Vishnu is the creator of the maha-tattva or material world, He can see past present and future. He sees the journey of the arrow from where it begins, how it travels and where it ends - In the meantime we experience free will where everything 'appears' to be NOT predestined on another level of mundane time and space in the mahat-tattva

Each bodily vessel we occupy belongs to Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva, they are like the costumes or suit one rents off a ‘fancy dress shop’

Such vessels or bodies are permanent fixtures or ornaments of the mahat-tattva, meaning the same vessels are available for lease or occupancy by different baddha-jivas in different Mahat-tattva creations

From the viewpoint of each baddha-jiva, they experience free will according to the body they possess, desire, and karma however, on a higher level of understanding, everything is following a plan simultaneously.

So the answer is there is always free will but everything within the realm of past, present, and future in the mahat-tattva but is also known on a higher level because there comes a time in material when the mahat-tattva repeats itself with different baddha-jivas playing out the same ‘bodily’ role we presently are.

[Bart Happel]

 

... If we choose the freewill route, then we are placing serious limitations on the abilities of The Lord, as he is clueless about the future. He knows only the past and the present, but not the future which directly contradicts the Gita verse ...

Actually there may be a compromise. The chaotic systems that I talk about, display hierarchical, self-similar, or fractal structure. This means that similar structures reoccur many times, at many places and at many geometrical-scales in the state-space. Hence, Krishna will be able to make very good guesses about the future, based on past or present similarities

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Krishna "gives" you freewill...

[shvu]

 

Actually there may be a compromise. The chaotic systems that I talk about, display hierarchical, self-similar, or fractal structure. This means that similar structures reoccur many times, at many places and at many geometrical-scales in the state-space. Hence, Krishna will be able to make very good guesses about the future, based on past or present similarities

 

I think it is also possible part of the paradox arises from incorrect understanding of the future. We (at least I) see the future linearly just like we see the past as a single path through time.

 

As I examine the events of my life (and of others around me), I see that the majority of them are beyond my control. Like driving home from work - for instance. It is not just me, all the hundreds of other cars should drive correctly too, for me to not get involved in an accident. The same logic applies in almost everything in life as I see my part is so minimal - almost negligible to the point of completely discounting my active role.

 

Cheers

[shvu]

 

Krishna "gives" you freewill...

 

OK...let us explore that line of thought a little bit.

 

Does Krishna know today, which shirt I will wear tomorrow? If yes, then I do not have freewill. If no, then he does not know the future which contradicts the Gita verse.

 

Cheers

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Dear Bart and Shvu,

 

It is true that there is no free will in the realm of mater Even the controversies of quantum mechanics - consciousness and free will of particles - are just apparent not real. By this I mean the probablistic nature of particle exists only at the messured observerd level. To observe a fundamental particle we need to shine it with light ( or some other equivalent wave) When we do that the particle obsorbes that energy of the photon of the irradiating light and its path gets disturbed. A fundamantal partical being so small this disturbance of being bumbarded by a photon is quite significant and its natural course gets disturbed. As a result what we observe and mesure, is never the same of its original position and course when it is not disturbed thus. .

 

If we dont disturbe the particle this way - if we dont observe and measure- then its natural course of development is quite deterministic obeying strict laws governed by the Schrödinger’s equation. There is no indeterminism at this ontological level. The probability enters only at the epistemological level.(cf:: Roger Penrose)

Even the chaos theory that Bart talks about is deterministic. The chaos of the chaos theorist is a determinined chaos. A precise deterministic algorithem is behind the chaos. It is a determined chaos - not a free chaos.

There is no free will anywhere in the material universe.

 

The quality of free will and consciousness is attributed to soul or spirit and not to matter. Thus we have two kinds of things Material and spiritual.. Determinism applies to matter Free will applies to spirit.

 

Now to shvu's paradox. If Krisna can predict events tomarrow - say what colour shirt Shvu will wear , then Shvu has no free will. If he cannot then Krishna has no omnicience.

 

Here if determinism is attributed to the emprical material world then there is no paradox as there is no free will in the entire material universe and its functioning. and Krisna could easily predict , with the laws of the universe known just like when the next eclipse would occur. The paradox arises only if we take Shvu not as a material entitity but a spirit. If we declare Shvu has no free will , to resolve the paradox then it reduces Shvu in to mere matter. Because what is a consciousness with out free will? it is just a piece of matter - may be more complicated gadged but non the less matter. It cannot be considered as spirit or jeeva. If we want to avoid this connotation of Shvu, then we need to asume he is a soul a spirit a consciousness not matter. In that case we will have to attribute free will to him. In that case the paradox will arise.

 

There is only one way to resolve this paradox if we do not want to reduce jeevatma to material thing. That is taking up the advidic position that essentially there is no difference between jeevatma and paramatma. Both have free will and are in fact one. Hovever Jeevatma is that part of paramatma vailed by maya- ignorance - and hence has limited 'cience' (knowledge) but no 'omnicience' Paramatma being uncovered by the vail of ignorance has omnicience. Jeevatma, though has free will still cannot know full working and unfolding of the evolution of events. Paramatma having complete information including the free will decisions made by the jeevatma, due to paramatma's oneness with jeevatma can predict everything. . Because jeevatma's free will is paramatma's freewill.

 

Dualism will creat the paradox.

This is not to say Monism has no problems of its own.

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[srikanthdk71]

 

sri could you please explain a little more about this choiceless state of liberation....this state of being you talk about? and what does one do in that state of presence?

 

why I ask is this. firstly I do not have that emptiness, secondly if a person is at some level of conscious awareness will speaking of these satori states you have found, benefit him...or would a more pragmatic teaching benefit the seeker? (exercising our free will here:))

 

Somehow, I missed this question. Sorry for answering late.

 

Mahajan, firstly I would try to answer the first part of your concern. Choiceless state is where the mind stops. The general perception is, when mind stops. No experience. That is a myth. When mind stops, all your purity ie., love and compassion is experienced. I will give you an example. When you eat a choco, you are happy. When you give the same choco to your kids and when they eat it and feel happy, the happiness in your heart stays for more time. The first was the experience of the mind. The second is the experience of the heart(YOU). The core of those pure feelings can be tapped with Dhyana. You have also asked me, what does one do? It can only be experienced if nothing is done. The mind is like the wave of the sea. The calm bed of the sea can be experienced once the wave subsides within itself. It is natural and need no special practice.

 

Your second part about the Satvic states to benifit the seeker. Unless, there is a freeness of mind not to cling to any outer bondings, the inner cannot be experienced. Anything we do like a Satsang, a Bhajan or a Recitation of a Mantra is to gratify our mind, to get a special feel to our senses. The crying for the lord, etc is showing your love to the one outside you. Most of us are self bankrupt and try to look for answers outside which our peers, masters and parents taught us and being followed as a tradition. Unless we depend on our senses to get our own experience, the state of realization appears a myth. I have quoted a small example several times which I have no hesitation is quoting once again. If Krishna was to appear before you in a Temple, would you know he is Krishna or will you look up to your peers to confirm what you feel matches with his. Most of us belong to the second category. This is what I called Self Bankruptcy. Truth cannot be taught. It can only be experienced. All the states of Bhu, Bhuvah to Satyam can be experienced within yourself. Once you know the Satyam, you will always want to be there. This is the samadhi state where it is oblivion of all the Annamay, Pranamay... Koshas and loves to be within itself forever.

Keep Smiling:) Forever

[srikanthdk71]

Ravindranji, that was good try. Good Explanation of Free Will.

[Bart Happel]

Dear Ravindran,

 

I would agree with most you say. But allow me to elucidate this chaotic system analogy of reality a bit more. A chaotic system is, indeed, completely determined by its underlying algorithm. Consequently, there can be no free will in a chaotic reality. However, although the underlying algorithm can be very simple, its recurrent dynamics produce an infinitely diverse self-similar structure. When, for example, you zoom in on this structure, you would infinitely find new structures at every scale. These structures may look similar, but they never exactly repeat themselves. Basically this means that the system will never reside at the same point in its state-space twice. Moreover, this means that the only way to get exact knowledge of the future of a chaotic system, is by running the system itself. There is no shortcut; the underlying algorithm cannot be solved or reduced to a simpler form, such that we can infer its infinite future beforehand. This is what I meant when I said: “… although the system (reality) is completely deterministic, its future can never be predicted with certainty.” Determinism doesn’t automatically imply the possibility of complete knowledge of the future.

 

I agree, as you say, free will may be spiritual. This would mean that the spiritual world is completely detached from the (chaotic) material world. This makes us spectators of material reality, just perceiving how material events unfold over time, without interfering in any way. Spiritual free will may then lie in an ability to view or experience material reality in multiple, qualitatively different modes. I.e., we may be able to willfully view qualitatively different projections of material reality. This is what I meant when I said: “Maybe … the evolution of our consciousness has something to do with a change of the frequency of our perception. And our Free Will might be limited to inducing such a change.”

 

Ultimately, in such a view, the infinite deterministic dynamics of material reality may proceed autonomously, whether we perceive it or not, and irrespective of our personal mode of perception or experience.

 

Kind regards,

 

Bart

[Pankaja_Dasa]

shvu about the shirt. We got minute free will. How minute ?

[Pankaja_Dasa]

i think we dont have any freewill, only true freewill is if used to surrender to Krishna. Prabhupada said use freewill to surrender to Krishna.

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Dear Burt,

There is no disaggremant on any one of what you said.

 

I mean to clarify the distinction between predictability and determinism. While chaotic system is genunely chaotic in the sence there is no predictability, it is nontheless determined- no free will. Usually people who are not well versed with science tend to equate unpredictability with free will. I was only commenting on that.

 

There is no disaggrement with you on any point. I am in complete aggrement that the spirit is completely detached with matter and nothing to do with it except of course knowing it. Though I have an unsolved new issue in that formulation.

 

Such a dualism will create another problem of how did god then create material universe if matter and spirit are so qualitatively differernt. How did god, who is pure consciousness, interact with matter? Again one solution is to assume that matter is only an appearance in consciousness, just like a wave is not different in substance from the watter - the medium. Everything is consciousness - Monism again.

 

What do you think on this issue?

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[Bart Happel]

Dear Ravindran (or is it Kasevan? ),

 

This is, of course, a very difficult question. Possibly one that human consciousness cannot know the answer to. The real answer will at least be mindboggling. I can, however, use this simple chaotic system analogy of reality, to illustrate the possibility of a dualist scenario in principle:

 

A computer programmer can implement a chaotic computational system on a powerful computer. Once the program has been started (e.g., by the programmer), it may infinitely display phase-projections of its chaotic behavior on the computer screen. The programmer (and his friends) can now sit down and watch the projections evolve over time. He cannot interfere with the running system, so all is perfectly dualistic. While he watches, he may be surprised, or otherwise mentally moved, by the beautiful colors and the intricate structures that evolve on the screen, but he cannot interact with the running system.

 

He might, however, have a ‘free will knob’. When he turns this knob, the sample frequency of the phase-projection on the screen will change. As a result he may see a totally different projection on the screen, but he is still not interfering with the underlying running system. Infinitely many sample frequencies will produce infinitely many different projections of exactly the same underlying system, and many different viewers of the system may watch many different projections.

 

The computer programmer may even have a second powerful computer on which he started exactly the same program 1 year earlier. This would be the only way to know the future of the system he just started on the other computer, up to 1 year ahead.

 

Kind regards,

 

Bart

[srikanthdk71]

 

Dear Ravindran (or is it Kasevan? ),

 

This is, of course, a very difficult question. Possibly one that human consciousness cannot know the answer to. The real answer will at least be mindboggling. I can, however, use this simple chaotic system analogy of reality, to illustrate the possibility of a dualist scenario in principle:

 

A computer programmer can implement a chaotic computational system on a powerful computer. Once the program has been started (e.g., by the programmer), it may infinitely display phase-projections of its chaotic behavior on the computer screen. The programmer (and his friends) can now sit down and watch the projections evolve over time. He cannot interfere with the running system, so all is perfectly dualistic. While he watches, he may be surprised, or otherwise mentally moved, by the beautiful colors and the intricate structures that evolve on the screen, but he cannot interact with the running system.

 

He might, however, have a ‘free will knob’. When he turns this knob, the sample frequency of the phase-projection on the screen will change. As a result he may see a totally different projection on the screen, but he is still not interfering with the underlying running system. Infinitely many sample frequencies will produce infinitely many different projections of exactly the same underlying system, and many different viewers of the system may watch many different projections.

 

The computer programmer may even have a second powerful computer on which he started exactly the same program 1 year earlier. This would be the only way to know the future of the system he just started on the other computer, up to 1 year ahead.

 

Kind regards,

 

Bart

 

Dear Bart, I may be interfering in your discussion with Ravindranji but since it is a free forum, i thought of giving it a try too. The point Ravindran is trying to make cannot be understood with this example. It means, you are alone, you have to create a computer first. Then a program next. Then you have to create the users. Then give a direction for the users to use your program on your computer. So, everything that evolved, is from that pure conciousness. If everything is conciousness, then where is duality? Correct me Bart or Ravindran if something is missing. From Bart's point of view, the knob can be turned the frequency changes because only HE knows everything. Why? Coz its all HIS creation.

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Dear Bart and Srikant,

 

The duality of god and world creats another paradox. From where does the world come from? If god created it - as it is believed in all theologies - then god created it from where? If it din't bexist before then God created it out of himself - by or from his will . Hence world is essentially part of him - a form of consciousness. - though must be having its own laws, which themselves came from gods will. If World exists independany of god from the begining then god has nothing to do with it except being a neutral witness - a mear knower and not a doer. This will remove god's Omnipotence. Thus to preserve God's omnipotence we need to assume god created the material universe out of himself , hence everything is god - a form of Consciousness. If this was not the case- If mater is independ of god - then god is not omnipotent. In anycase his suprime sovernity is in question if world or matter is essentially different from god.

 

True Burt, we cannot know the question related to Origin. But we speculate logically. That is all we can do and we have been doing all along.

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[Bart Happel]

 

... The duality of god and world creats another paradox. ...

Indeed This paradox is endless..

[HARRY]

 

Maha-Vishnu is the creator of the maha-tattva or material world, He can see past present and future. He sees the journey of the arrow from where it begins, how it travels and where it ends - In the meantime we experience free will where everything 'appears' to be NOT predestined on another level of mundane time and space in the mahat-tattva

Each bodily vessel we occupy belongs to Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva, they are like the costumes or suit one rents off a ‘fancy dress shop’ to possess. In this way, the embodied baddha jivas selfishly search for pleasures in different vessels within the temporary material universes

Such vessels or bodies are permanent fixtures or ornaments of the mahat-tattva, meaning the same vessels after their eventual demise, are again available for lease or occupancy by different baddha-jivas in different Mahat-tattva creations or even within different universes of the same mahat-tattva. Nothing is ever repeated, it is however re-created within different material universes and different mahat-tattvas

From the viewpoint of each embodied baddha-jiva trapped in the restricted material world, they DO experience free will WITHIN the material body they possess, ACCORDING to desire, and karma however, on a higher level of understanding, everything is following a plan (the dreams of Maha Vishnu)that is simultaneously known by Maha Vishnu and not known by the embodied jiva.<?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p>

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So the answer is, there is always free will for the marginal living entity however, everything within the realm of past, present, and future in the mahat-tattva, is also known on a higher level by Maha Vishnu because he is situated in what is known as the ‘eternal present’ which means from His dominion He sees the past and future of Hs material creation

Also there comes a time when the mahat-tattva, or universes within the mahat-tattva, again manifest in the same way with different baddha-jivas playing out the same ‘bodily’ role we presently are now experiencing.

 

Everything is working within the realm of similtaneously one a different philosophy. And the only way to 'appreciate' this creation is by chanting hare Krishna.