Does 'free will' Exist?

[Bart Happel]

By the way, the above example (post #96) of how quantum reality may be viewed as some kind of phase-projection of an underlying chaotic oscillation, only tentatively suggests how quantum mechanics may fit into the model in principle. The projection that we perceive is, of course, a 3-dimensional projection and in order to fit in general relativity, it remains to be seen what space-time geometries of such projections will look like. An essential question here is: what exactly is time in the projection; what is a clock?

 

Moreover, from a spiritual (qualified) monistic standpoint, our personal perception and consciousness (soul) must somehow emerge from the chaotic oscillation (God) and our physical bodies are the central part of our perceived projection of the oscillation. Perhaps we may view the most complex regions within the oscillation as souls, and it may be possible to relate our perception to certain dynamic properties of our soul. For example, such local dynamical regimes will be extremely unstable and may oscillate between different states. The frequency of this oscillation may somehow be fundamental to our perceptual phase-projection, i.e., what we perceive. E.g., we may only consciously perceive reality every now and than, in more or less regular intervals, and we may only consciously experience this as continuous perception.

 

Interestingly, the human eye seems to be able to perceive a single photon! So, our perception may be directly linked to the quantum world and its underlying oscillation. And a fractal geometry of the chaotic attractor suggests that every soul may live within its own personal representation of the universe. Yet, all these sub-universes are connected and coordinated as a result of being a part of the whole universe (God).

 

I’m really wrestling with these idea’s, but I think there is a chance that a solution in terms of the model exists that our mind can understand, and that can be verified in computational simulations of the model.

 

Kind regards, Bart

[Bart Happel]

I have found 3 verses in the ‘Bhagavad Gita as it is’, that may be particularly relevant to the content of this thread. Most notably: the 3rd<SUP> </SUP>verse strikingly corresponds to the basic idea of the discussed model of quantum reality (in which a single point 'describes' the entire universe), when Krishna refers to himself as: “The Supreme Person, who is smaller than the smallest”. Also note the commentary here by Sri Srimad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada!

 

 

3.3 The Blessed Lord said: O sinless Arjuna, I have already explained that there are two classes of men who realize the Self. Some are inclined to understand Him by empirical, philosophical speculation, and others are inclined to know Him by devotional work.

 

4.35 And when you have thus learned the truth, you will know that all living beings are but part of Me--and that they are in Me, and are Mine.

 

8.9 One should meditate upon the Supreme Person as the one who knows everything, as He who is the oldest, who is the controller, who is smaller than the smallest, who is the maintainer of everything, who is beyond all material conception, who is inconceivable, and who is always a person. He is luminous like the sun and, being transcendental, is beyond this material nature.

 

Commentary by Sri Srimad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada:

The process of thinking of the Supreme is mentioned in this verse. The foremost point is that He is not impersonal or void. One cannot meditate on something impersonal or void. That is very difficult. The process of thinking of Krsna, however, is very easy and is factually stated herein. First of all, He is purusa, spiritual, Rama and Krsna, and is described herein as kavim; that is, He knows past, present and future and therefore knows everything. He is the oldest personality because He is the origin of everything; everything is born out of Him. He is also the supreme controller of the universe, maintainer and instructor of humanity. He is smaller than the smallest. The living entity is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair, but the Lord is so inconceivably small that He enters into the heart of this particle. Therefore He is called smaller than the smallest. As the Supreme, He can enter into the atom and into the heart of the smallest and control him as the Supersoul. Although so small, He is still all-pervading and is maintaining everything. By Him all these planetary systems are sustained. We often wonder how these big planets are floating in the air. It is stated here that the Supreme Lord, by His inconceivable energy, is sustaining all these big planets and systems of galaxies. The word acintya (inconceivable) is very significant in this connection. God's energy is beyond our conception, beyond our thinking jurisdiction, and is therefore called inconceivable (acintya). Who can argue this point? He pervades this material world and yet is beyond it. We cannot even comprehend this material world, which is insignificant compared to the spiritual world--so how can we comprehend what is beyond? Acintya means that which is beyond this material world, that which our argument, logic and philosophical speculation cannot touch, that which is inconceivable. Therefore intelligent persons, avoiding useless argument and speculation, should accept what is stated in scriptures like the Vedas, Gita, and Srimad-Bhagavatam and follow the principles they set down. This will lead one to understanding.

[weallshineon]

 

I have found 3 verses in the ‘Bhagavad Gita as it is’, that may be particularly relevant to the content of this thread. Most notably: the 3rd<SUP> </SUP>verse strikingly corresponds to the basic idea of the discussed model of quantum reality (in which a single point 'describes' the entire universe), when Krishna refers to himself as: “The Supreme Person, who is smaller than the smallest”. Also note the commentary here by Sri Srimad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada!

 

 

3.3 The Blessed Lord said: O sinless Arjuna, I have already explained that there are two classes of men who realize the Self. Some are inclined to understand Him by empirical, philosophical speculation, and others are inclined to know Him by devotional work.

 

4.35 And when you have thus learned the truth, you will know that all living beings are but part of Me--and that they are in Me, and are Mine.

 

8.9 One should meditate upon the Supreme Person as the one who knows everything, as He who is the oldest, who is the controller, who is smaller than the smallest, who is the maintainer of everything, who is beyond all material conception, who is inconceivable, and who is always a person. He is luminous like the sun and, being transcendental, is beyond this material nature.

 

Commentary by Sri Srimad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada:

The process of thinking of the Supreme is mentioned in this verse. The foremost point is that He is not impersonal or void. One cannot meditate on something impersonal or void. That is very difficult. The process of thinking of Krsna, however, is very easy and is factually stated herein. First of all, He is purusa, spiritual, Rama and Krsna, and is described herein as kavim; that is, He knows past, present and future and therefore knows everything. He is the oldest personality because He is the origin of everything; everything is born out of Him. He is also the supreme controller of the universe, maintainer and instructor of humanity. He is smaller than the smallest. The living entity is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair, but the Lord is so inconceivably small that He enters into the heart of this particle. Therefore He is called smaller than the smallest. As the Supreme, He can enter into the atom and into the heart of the smallest and control him as the Supersoul. Although so small, He is still all-pervading and is maintaining everything. By Him all these planetary systems are sustained. We often wonder how these big planets are floating in the air. It is stated here that the Supreme Lord, by His inconceivable energy, is sustaining all these big planets and systems of galaxies. The word acintya (inconceivable) is very significant in this connection. God's energy is beyond our conception, beyond our thinking jurisdiction, and is therefore called inconceivable (acintya). Who can argue this point? He pervades this material world and yet is beyond it. We cannot even comprehend this material world, which is insignificant compared to the spiritual world--so how can we comprehend what is beyond? Acintya means that which is beyond this material world, that which our argument, logic and philosophical speculation cannot touch, that which is inconceivable. Therefore intelligent persons, avoiding useless argument and speculation, should accept what is stated in scriptures like the Vedas, Gita, and Srimad-Bhagavatam and follow the principles they set down. This will lead one to understanding.

 

Thank you bart, your realizations have encouraged me to try and understand

[Bart Happel]

Chapter 11 of the ‘Bhagavad Gita as it is’ deals with the ‘Universal Form’. The 4 verses below, describe what Arjuna saw when Krishna displayed His universal form to Arjuna. Did Arjuna see a large-scale ‘fractal geometry’ (like the Mandelbrot set in posts #79-80)?

 

 

11.10-11 Arjuna saw in that universal form unlimited mouths and unlimited eyes. It was all wondrous. The form was decorated with divine, dazzling ornaments and arrayed in many garbs. He was garlanded gloriously, and there were many scents smeared over His body. All was magnificent, all-expanding, unlimited. This was seen by Arjuna.

Purport: These two verses indicate that there is no limit to the hands, mouths, legs, etc., of the Lord. These manifestations are distributed throughout the universe and are unlimited. By the grace of the Lord, Arjuna could see them while sitting in one place. That is due to the inconceivable potency of Krsna.

 

11.12 If hundreds of thousands of suns rose up at once into the sky, they might resemble the effulgence of the Supreme Person in that universal form.

Purport: What Arjuna saw was indescribable, yet Sanjaya is trying to give a mental picture of that great revelation to Dhrtarastra. Neither Sanjaya nor Dhrtarastra was present, but Sanjaya, by the grace of Vyasa, could see whatever happened. Thus he now compares the situation, as far as it can be understood, to an imaginable phenomenon (i.e. thousands of suns).

 

11.13 At that time Arjuna could see in the universal form of the Lord the unlimited expansions of the universe situated in one place although divided into many, many thousands.

Purport: The word tatra (there) is very significant. It indicates that both Arjuna and Krsna were sitting on the chariot when Arjuna saw the universal form. Others on the battlefield could not see this form because Krsna gave the vision only to Arjuna. Arjuna could see in the body of Krsna many thousands of universes. As we learn from Vedic scriptures, there are many universes and many planets. Some of them are made of earth, some are made of gold, some are made of jewels, some are very great, some are not so great, etc. Sitting on his chariot, Arjuna could see all these universes. But no one could understand what was going on between Arjuna and Krsna.

[Shriyogi]

I am refereeing to the message No.170 of Justin and I agree with his views.

In the physical realm of the World, it may sometimes appear that we are following the correct path but inherently we may be wrong. The word ‘infinite’ is not the correct for the word ‘purna’ or ‘entire’. Infinite word is used for counting purposes to understand the number. It can be used to give imaginary picture but it is confusion in itself since it is a countless number with limited calculating mind.

Secondly, what is infinite for an ant may not be infinite for an advanced man. You need not count to know/compare the complete greatness. An ant can not count the number of stones of difference sizes and shapes in a building but a man can if he wishes but it is a waste of time, rather he will refer it as a complete building which he created. Similarly, what is infinite for a man may not be infinite for superior divine entities in entire universe. Universal consciousness cannot be imagined/measured but it has to be experienced.

[primate]

 

I am refereeing to the message No.170 of Justin and I agree with his views.

In the physical realm of the World, it may sometimes appear that we are following the correct path but inherently we may be wrong. The word ‘infinite’ is not the correct for the word ‘purna’ or ‘entire’. Infinite word is used for counting purposes to understand the number. It can be used to give imaginary picture but it is confusion in itself since it is a countless number with limited calculating mind.

Secondly, what is infinite for an ant may not be infinite for an advanced man. You need not count to know/compare the complete greatness. An ant can not count the number of stones of difference sizes and shapes in a building but a man can if he wishes but it is a waste of time, rather he will refer it as a complete building which he created. Similarly, what is infinite for a man may not be infinite for superior divine entities in entire universe. Universal consciousness cannot be imagined/measured but it has to be experienced.

Can’t find the message you are referring to. Talking about infinity, I can assure you that the only difference between an ant and a human is that an ant cannot understand the concept whereas a human can.

Regards

[Ravindran Kesavan]

 

Chapter 11 of the ‘Bhagavad Gita as it is’ deals with the ‘Universal Form’. The 4 verses below, describe what Arjuna saw when Krishna displayed His universal form to Arjuna. Did Arjuna see a large-scale ‘fractal geometry’ (like the Mandelbrot set in posts #79-80)?

 

Dear Bart,

There could be a truth in your conjecture, because I had once a mystical experience, induced by mantra yoga, in which I saw a mind boggling fractal design of the universe. First, , one day, I saw this empirical universe of matter that we are aware of (or capable of being aware of with our gross senses) is just a small part of a greater reality, which was complete. Then in the next day I saw that this greater reality is just a part of still greater reality that was complete. Then the third day further unfolded to still greater complete reality and so on and so forth. Every time I thought that this is the complete reality, only to be challenged the next day. This process of unfolding universe with in universe, or universe and super universes continued day after day, till I gave up my arrogance that I knew the entire truth. I became really modest that I don’t know the entire complete truth and perhaps the sequence of part whole reality is infinite and hence I cannot know the whole truth.

The whole thing was a fractal design though I did not know that time the word ‘fractal’ I read about complexity and chaos much latter. I called the reality I saw as Mayicocosam – meaning Magical Cosmos.

I don’t know whether the real universe is really like this. Physical science offers no clue to this. But I am sure there is an experience like this in our deeper mind. The way we see the universe or reality depends on the way we are wired neurologically and the brain chemistry of consciousness. Any change in the brain chemistry or the wiring pattern alters our perception and conception of the world. That is our experience of the world is arbitrary and one possible way to of seeing and understanding the world. There are many many ways of seeing reality depending on our conscious states. (Or Neural web and chemistry) Going by my direct experience the neural net as well as chemistry belongs to complex dynamic system and hence might have a fractal base, though I am not sure on this. Only future development in cognitive science would have answer for this. What I am sure of is that there is an experience of fractal structure of the world in our mind. This vision is truly mind boggling and awe inspiring, and can be considered as the universal form of the god. I did consider that as the universal form of the goddess that I was worshipping that time with her mantra.

 

And perhaps Arjuna might have had an access to this experience.

Do work on your model. Perhaps the answer would come from it.

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[Bart Happel]

 

Dear Bart,

There could be a truth in your conjecture, because I had once a mystical experience, induced by mantra yoga, in which I saw a mind boggling fractal design of the universe. First, , one day, I saw this empirical universe of matter that we are aware of (or capable of being aware of with our gross senses) is just a small part of a greater reality, which was complete. Then in the next day I saw that this greater reality is just a part of still greater reality that was complete. Then the third day further unfolded to still greater complete reality and so on and so forth. Every time I thought that this is the complete reality, only to be challenged the next day. This process of unfolding universe with in universe, or universe and super universes continued day after day, till I gave up my arrogance that I knew the entire truth. I became really modest that I don’t know the entire complete truth and perhaps the sequence of part whole reality is infinite and hence I cannot know the whole truth.

The whole thing was a fractal design though I did not know that time the word ‘fractal’ I read about complexity and chaos much latter. I called the reality I saw as Mayicocosam – meaning Magical Cosmos.

I don’t know whether the real universe is really like this. Physical science offers no clue to this. But I am sure there is an experience like this in our deeper mind. The way we see the universe or reality depends on the way we are wired neurologically and the brain chemistry of consciousness. Any change in the brain chemistry or the wiring pattern alters our perception and conception of the world. That is our experience of the world is arbitrary and one possible way to of seeing and understanding the world. There are many many ways of seeing reality depending on our conscious states. (Or Neural web and chemistry) Going by my direct experience the neural net as well as chemistry belongs to complex dynamic system and hence might have a fractal base, though I am not sure on this. Only future development in cognitive science would have answer for this. What I am sure of is that there is an experience of fractal structure of the world in our mind. This vision is truly mind boggling and awe inspiring, and can be considered as the universal form of the god. I did consider that as the universal form of the goddess that I was worshipping that time with her mantra.

 

And perhaps Arjuna might have had an access to this experience.

Do work on your model. Perhaps the answer would come from it.

Regards,

K.Ravindran

<br />

Dear Ravindran,<br />

That is amazing! Thanks for sharing. If we can perceive this, then maybe our notion of ‘empirical science’ must be broadened. Perhaps this is what Prabhupada meant when he referred to his method of getting enlightened as a 'scientific method'. <br /><br />Do you think you were inside your body when you consciously experienced this? And does this (2-dimensional) video resemble your experience in any way:<br />

<center>

<br /><font size="2">(Note the 'fullscreen' option)</font><br />

<br />

<embed src="

" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

</center>

<br /><br />

 

Kind regards, Bart

[Ravindran Kesavan]

 

 

Dear Ravindran,

 

That is amazing! Thanks for sharing. If we can perceive this, then maybe our notion of ‘empirical science’ must be broadened. Perhaps this is what Prabhupada meant when he referred to his method of getting enlightened as a 'scientific method'.

 

Do you think you were inside your body when you consciously experienced this? And does this (2-dimensional) video resemble your experience in any way:

 

Dear Bart,

 

No I was not in my body when I saw mystical visions. Nor I can say that I was outside my body in some spacial location. There are two ways to comprehend where I was at that time. At some phases of mystical vision I felt that I was everywhere along with the entire universe as the intelligence of the universe. At other phaces I felt that I was a detached witness - a transcendantal consciousness - not located in anywhere with in the emprical universe but beyond it. Spacial temporal location makes nosense as the consciousness was the one which witnessed the space and time as its objects. Just like a camera takes the picture of everything cannot be found in its own picture - to give an analogy.

 

To use mystic's language, I was nowhere and I was everywhere.

 

No it was not two diminisonal . It is the regular three dimentional at times and at times it is more - I dont know how many. I believe it is fourteen dimentional though it is an inference from the fact that I saw the entire cosmos sprang up from preciously fourteen crisp formulas/ mantras. But that may not mean that the dimentions are fourteen.

 

The vedio show you have attached is either not working or I dont know how to use it

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[Narasingh]

Dear Bart,

I know that the Brahma Samhita with purports by Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati and Bhaktivinode Thakur are pretty detailed with regards to who we are in identity and how free will is arranged. Hari has 3 classifications of Shakti. Antaranga, Tatastha, and Bahiranga. We are little sparks of the same of which Hari is (sat, cit, ananda)(but from the Tatastha Shakti), due to this we are "little" isvaras, yet we have a flaw (due to us being "little" Isvaras of the Tatastha Shakti) which allows us to become influenced by not just YogaMaya, but MahaMaya as well. The Antaranga Shakti and Shaktiman are never under the influence of Mahamaya, but can be of YogaMaya. Their drawings from the verses are pretty deep. I think you'd appreciate what is said there regarding the jivatma, vibhinamsa, etc...

With regards to what Arjun saw on the battlefield while witnessing Vishvarup, it seems to me that he was pretty descriptive and detailed with what he saw.

 

 

With regards,

[Bart Happel]

Dear Ravindran & Narasingh,

 

Thanks again for the detailed account Ravindran. You describe that you saw ever greater realities within an overall fractal geometry. Did your consciousness still have some form of attention that could be directed to these different scales of reality?

 

Regarding the video, just click the play-button in the center of the picture. If this doesn't work, then here's a link to the video on YouTube:

 

 

If that also doesn't work, you may have to download and install the Adobe Flash - and Shockwave players:

 

http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/about

 

You also need a fast (broadband) internet connection to view streaming video from YouTube on your PC.

 

 

Thank you for your suggestions Narasingh. I will look into it. And what Arjuna saw is described in even more detail in Baghavad-gita Chapter 11. It wasn't always a pretty sight.

 

 

Kind regards, Bart

[Bart Happel]

 

... Going by my direct experience the neural net as well as chemistry belongs to complex dynamic system and hence might have a fractal base, though I am not sure on this. ...

The human brain is the most complex information processing system known. In current thinking it derives its processing power from its huge numbers of neurons and connections. Our brain contains about 10^11 (100 billion) neurons, each of which is connected to an average of 10.000 other neurons. This amounts to a total of 10^15 connections. If these billions of connections were fully random, it can be shown that the brain would be many times larger than it actually is. It is, indeed, only because of its highly organized structure that the brain manages to execute a myriad of functions and yet maintains a compact size.

 

A wealth of neuropsychological evidence indicates that the (neocortical) circuitry of the brain has a hierarchical modular organization at all structural scales, which is paralleled by a localization of different brain functions. Furthermore, it has been demonstrated that such hierarchical modular - or fractal architectures provide a solution to the rigorous constraints on connectivity issued by the design of actual hardware implementations of large neural networks in so called neuro-computers. It has also been demonstrated that fractal structures implement useful constraints for designing artificial neural networks that have superior performance in, for example, pattern recognition tasks. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the brain has an overall fractal design.

 

Kind regards, Bart

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Dear Bart,

That is very interesting news to me. It matches with my experience. Your post motivates me to systematise and write my findings though it is not instrumentation based scientific research. It is based on my direct experience of a mystical sort. But I think there is much scientific basis to it.

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[Bart Happel]

Dear Ravindran,

 

Do you already have an idea as to how such a fractal brain design may be related to the fractal reality that you consciously perceived in your mystical experience?

 

Kind regards, Bart

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Dear Bart,

I really don’t know anything of the external fractal world. All that I can be sure of is that brain design being fractal all that we experience could be only experienced in fractal designs perhaps. Let me illustrate the point that we don’t experience anything of the external world. (What I am going to say in this post is too elementary stuff for you and you know them already due to your science background. I am only being elementary to avoid isolated dialog between you and me in a public forum. Forgive me for my simplistic or trivial discussion in what follows.)

 

 

 

 

When I look through the window right now I see the green grass meadow out side my office. But is the grass really green? High school Physics told me that the grass a structure of molecules with out any colour. The colour is not in the grass but in the sun light When the light with all seven colours falls on the grass some colours are absorbed some scattered depending the molecular arrangement . In the case of grass all other colours of sun light except green are observed, only green being scattered . Hence I see grass as green.

Now that story is only tentative. In college we learn the colour is neither in the light. What light consisted of is electromagnetic waves. A wave is not colourful thing but just a movement. What I have been calling ‘Green’ is really a motion - a frequency band falling between495-570 nm

Now when this electromagnet wave reaches my eve the cells are so designed to differently respond to different range of frequency by emitting a neuro-electric pulse. There is no colour there either. When this neuro electric impulse reach a place in the brain called visual cortex and trigger a specific area I suddenly see a green colour. That the colour green is nowhere in the world it is a response of my brain to an electromagnetic frequency. This is true of all other colours as well. There are no colours in the world . Colours are the brain’s response to otherwise colourless electromagnetic vibrations, given by the correspondence schema :

Violet : 380-450 nm

Blue : 450 -495 nm

Green : 495-570 nm

Yellow: 570-590 nm

Orange : 590-620 nm

Red : 620-750 nm

What I argued abour colour is true in the case4s of other sense experience too. There no sounds in the world. What we call sounds are actually silent movement patterns outside. I move my vocall card Air molecules pick up that motion and conduct to another’s eardrom which vibrate and is converted in to neuro electric pulse which goes to the auditory cortex of the brain where one suddenly hears the sound.

The phenomenal world that we experience is a response of our brain not what is actually there as it is in the real world. And it is our predicament that we can never experience the world as it is, as we cannot get out of our brain and see directly the world. Hence what we know is all our own brain states. Or rather Mind states – because the colour is not in the physical brain either. If you cut open my skull when I see the green grass meadow you will see no green colour in my visual, cortex. It is simply nowhere in the physical realm including my physical brain!

Hence I cannot for certain maintain that what I saw is a real physical structure. But What I know is that it is the way the brain or rather the mind is organized and creates the experience. On this Cognitive realm I have a lots and lots to say, due to my direct experience. The problem is that the experience is very vast, and I cannot discuss such immensity in a short forum like this. However I have a few enquiries for you and I need clarification from you on certain issues. I am in the process of systematizing my thought. I will share certain aspects of my experience and pose few questions soon.

 

I hope I have answered your previous post. If I have not do let me know.

Your post helps me a lot. Perhaps we together could develop a new descipline of scientific spirituality.

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[Ravindran Kesavan]

On my Mystical experience

Dear Bart,

I am introducing some early part of my prolonged massive mystical experience. This experience is just introductory ones and strictly cannot be called Mystical.. True Grand mystical Experience followed latter. But these are parts of the total grand Mistical Experience that I had. I will introduce slowly part by part. So has to keep the posting short enough. Also I have certain questions for you from the present selection.

First day

My first mystical experience occurred one day when I was meditating on the mantra of Goddess to which I was formally initiated. That particular day I felt while meditating that something soft descended on my crown. This disturbed my meditation and a thought occurred to me that some thing like a mesh of spider web must have fallen on my head from the roof. Or some moth like creature must have came and sat on my head. I touched my head and opened my eyes to check in the mirror. There was nothing physical on my head. But the feeling persisted. And when I closed my eyes again and looked internally at the top of my crown mentally, I saw a pair of female feet. And as my mind was fixed in it I felt heat arising all over my body. I also became intensely aware of all the minute parts of my body. I also felt like lying down. I thought I was developing a high fever. Since that was already late night, I decided to go to the physician next day, stopped meditation and lied down. The aware ness of my body intensified. I became aware of every cell of my body. Then I saw clearly that my body was undergoing a transformation in its form. I felt I have an animal body of some sort. And that animal form was not stable. . It was going continuous transformation. In a very short time I became different different animal forms. I got jittered by this and opened my eyes to check. But when I opened my eyes I found every thing is normal with my body- it didn’t became an animal of any sort physically. But as soon I closed my eyes I could see and feel that I possess a different body. I got very anxious about all this weird experience. I thought I am going mad and I Prayed to the goddess, helplessly. As soon as I prayed for help from the crown of my head goddess’s voice arose: “ Do not get scared. You are not sick or mad. You are seeing what all the past seers – Rishis - have seen. You are having a grand mystical experience. I am showing you grand secrets - don’t fear. Just relax and be open to that experience and learn”. As soon as I heard goddess voice I became reassured and relaxed. I knew goddess is always with me and would never let me down. Then I started enjoying the show. My form went on transforming to many many animals. Initially it was confusing but soon it became clear to me that I was going through the entire evolution sequence in the reverse direction. I became all the creatures in the evolution chain from human form to a Protozoa.

My experience of the external world also has been undergoing corresponding changes. For example when I became protozoa – a sort of creature with one cell like a jelly filled balloon, all that I could experience was Vibrations felt kinesthetically from a liquid (or water) medium around me. That was the world for me. A warms world was different from a moth’s world from a bats world and from a human’s world.

This was my first day’s experience and I went to sleep as a protozoa. Next morning when I awoke I find myself perfectly fit and normal. There was no need to visit a physician.

Second day

I finished all my regular work in my office thinking of the evening eagerly. When I reached home in the evenings, I quickly finished my early simple sativic dinner in small quantity, waited for an hour or two for the food to digest and sat for meditation. As soon as I fixed my attention on my crown and chanted the mantra, the body heat arose and awareness increased. This time I saw my own internal body structure minutely. I became minutely aware of all the cells of my body and the interconnecting web of energy flow circuits. I say a very complex system of Energy flowing web, that the Hindus call Nadi . The life energy which the Hindus call prana , that the Chinese call Chi was flowing through a very complex system of billions of path ways. All the pathways from the billions of cells went to the center of the body and passed to the inside of my skull. Inside the skull there was another structure of mind boggling complexity of a web. That was my body.

Once I saw clearly these billions of nerve system as my body, then once again I started regressing in the evolution sequence as in the first day. But this time I say the entire evolution sequence in terms of the transformation of the pranic network. The network became simpler and simpler as I approached the protozoa. My brain neural net too were becoming simpler and simpler. I should say that I did not loose any nadi as such. But the path ways just closed down and nonfunctional as I regressed.

Then I progressed in the forward direction from protozoa to human. In this phace I saw how the nadis opened up and functional to grow and reach the complex billion pathway structure of human. I noticed that the present human brain is not completely opened up yet. There are massive portions of the neural web that lay dormant- nonfunctional. I saw their functions in a later mystical experience and I shall talk about this structure latter, when I come to that.

Third Day

The third day I say a very strange fact about the brain, which I have never heard anywhere before. I saw that the brain is not only is a very complex structure of neural network which we all know, but also as a system that has a software program running in it. Just like a computer. I called this software running in our brain as Neurogram to mean Neurological Program. It is this software program of the brain is responsible for computing or composing our experience.

The third day I saw once again the evolution but in terms of Neurogram evolution. Each creature is endowed with a specific neurogram and that accounts for its experience of the world. A worm’s neurogram is different from that of a bat and is yet different from that of human.

It is the neurogram which computes the phenomenal world, given the input of energy pattern from the real world.

These three days of experience were the basis for the rest of the days of experience It is as if there three days are so arranged to provide the fundamentals for understanding the rest of my experience in the coming days. With out these introductory experiences the other experiences would make no clear sense to me and I would have concluded I am gone crazy - more of those experiences latter.

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Dear Bart, I have a few queries now.

(1) Is there any scientific basis that the entire evolutionary history is retained in the brain as some sort of biological memory? Or it is retained in the Genetic code?

Even if there is no scientific theory at present do you think it is a possible idea given our brain structure?

(2) Do you know any work or theory that confirms or even rudimentarily suggestive of the idea of a biological soft were program of the brain? What do you think of such an idea? Is it a possible hypothesis?

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[weallshineon]

 

Well, I’m prepared to rest my speculative claim that God is ignorant. Perhaps he isn’t. If our soul is a part of God, it implies that our soul is not the whole of God. Hence, the soul’s ignorance. Thereby, all souls are part of God, so God may be ‘the sum of all souls’. If there isn’t any collective ignorance (i.e., all souls together know everything) but only the individual ignorance of single souls, then God is not ignorant. I’m only speculating again here..

 

Kind regards, Bart

 

Bart, I found this interesting reading and is very good good for expanding your thoughts on this subject -

 

Click SB 7: The Science of God

[Bart Happel]

 

Dear Bart, I have a few queries now.

(1) Is there any scientific basis that the entire evolutionary history is retained in the brain as some sort of biological memory? Or it is retained in the Genetic code?

Even if there is no scientific theory at present do you think it is a possible idea given our brain structure?

(2) Do you know any work or theory that confirms or even rudimentarily suggestive of the idea of a biological soft were program of the brain? What do you think of such an idea? Is it a possible hypothesis?

 

Dear Ravindran,

 

Firstly, all biological structures are basically fractal structures. This may be evident when we consider the growth mechanism that generates an organism, starting from the zygote (seed or fertilized ovum) up to the mature organism. During development the same DNA is recurrently expressed into RNA and protein by all cells, at all scales of the developing organism. This mechanism can be modeled by formal grammars or parallel rewriting systems called L-systems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-system). Starting from an initial structure, new structures are generated by recursively applying a fixed set of replacement rules to all parts of the structure. Some L-systems have, for example, been shown to accurately mimic the growth of plants. The recursive nature of an L-system gives rise to self-similarity and thereby to fractal-like structures and forms.

 

So the brain is a fractal structure. But does this mean we can only consciously perceive fractal structures? Obviously this is not the case. We can perceive any kind of structures and geometries, although we usually experience fractal structures as more beautiful and appealing.

 

The answer to your first question is: yes. Our modern DNA is the result of a cumulative evolutionary process of mutation, extension and reordering of that protozoic DNA whereby useful DNA sequences of simple organisms are retained in the DNA of more complex organisms. We can also see this in animal embryonic development which, in the first stages (weeks) is strikingly similar across different animal species. It can then be speculated that ultimately a memory of our entire evolutionary development must be implemented in our organism (body and nervous system).

 

Regarding your second question, the specific wiring of the brain’s neurons is commonly considered to be the ‘software’ of the brain. Much neuropsychological – and neurophysiological research as well as computational simulations of artificial neural networks, has been dedicated to understanding the relation between architecture and function of neural networks. And, indeed, neuro-science has a quite detailed understanding of the workings of basic (involuntary) perceptual neural systems such as the visual cortex. However, when it comes to higher cognitive functions such as thought or consciousness, science still has no clue whatsoever as to their relation with actual neural connection patterns or structures or chemistry.

 

The overall architecture of the neo cortex is strikingly similar across its entire surface. And when the brain is damaged, other regions can take over lost brain functions. There doesn’t seem to be, however, any specific neural substrate for our consciousness or our thoughts. The idea of a separate (software) program that controls the brain to produce thought and consciousness, might ultimately solve this riddle. A possible candidate for such a program is the quantum reality that necessarily underlies all neural processes.

 

The predominant neuro-scientific view has always been that actions and interactions between neurons and their synapses caused by ion concentration changes are responsible for all information processing in the brain. However, new theories are now emerging, for example, ‘quantum brain theory’ that states that in the nerve cell, a message is carried through cell structures called microtubules by a quantum wave function, not by concentration changes. When these waves reach the synapses, they induce the production of neurotransmitters and then move onto another neuron where the process is repeated. These quantum waves can move extraordinarily fast and with little energy. Because of the short period of time it takes for a signal to travel through the nervous system, this seems a much better theory than changing ion concentrations. Memory is another area where the quantum brain theory may be helpful. Humans have an extraordinarily large number of neurons. Most of these neurons, though, are not contained in the centers of the nervous system thought to be responsible for memory. Even if all neurons were involved in memory, there still would not be enough to explain the memory capacity of a human. Exploiting quantum states, however, there are infinitely many possible arrangements of neurons, even if there is a finite number of them. Basically this implies that memories do not reside in the brain, but in quantum reality.

 

Note that these ideas seamlessly fit into our monistic chaos model of quantum reality, in which even consciousness may be an attribute of quantum reality and not of neural interactions in the brain. The latter may simply serve to transform conscious thoughts into manifest actions.

 

I'm looking forward to your account of the rest of your mystical experience.

 

Kind regards, Bart

[Bart Happel]

 

Bart, I found this interesting reading and is very good good for expanding your thoughts on this subject -

 

Click SB 7: The Science of God

 

Thanks

 

Kind regards, Bart

[bija]

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<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-ca7Bo8X3s&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344">

 

 

So the brain is a fractal structure. But does this mean we can only consciously perceive fractal structures? Obviously this is not the case. We can perceive any kind of structures and geometries, although we usually experience fractal structures as more beautiful and appealing.

 

The answer to your first question is: yes. Our modern DNA is the result of a cumulative evolutionary process of mutation, extension and reordering of that protozoic DNA whereby useful DNA sequences of simple organisms are retained in the DNA of more complex organisms. We can also see this in animal embryonic development which, in the first stages (weeks) is strikingly similar across different animal species. It can then be speculated that ultimately a memory of our entire evolutionary development must be implemented in our organism (body and nervous system). by bart

The shaman taps into this inner DNA with visions. Serpent twining.

 

When I was a child I realized the universes reside within - universe upon universe. Buddha also claims the same in some texts. The shaman also.

 

We can vision quest into all structure and knowledge because it is within the DNA structure. We can gain knowledge of medicine, science, the universe...mysteries, sacred texts....all within the internal code.

 

The shaman for example found the mystery of plant healing from within etc.

 

There is a short interview with Stanislav Grof and others in this movie (sorry could only find French version online):

 

<a href="http://www.wideo.fr/video/iLyROoafYjUm.html" title="D'autres mondes ( Jan Kounen ) - wideo"><img src="http://t.kewego.com/t/2/0793/154x114_iLyROoafYjUm_2.jpg" alt="D'autres mondes ( Jan Kounen ) - wideo"/></a><br /><a href="http://www.wideo.fr/video/iLyROoafYjUm.html">D'autres mondes ( Jan Kounen ) - wideo</a>

[Bart Happel]

Dear Ravindran,

 

The following may be another useful consideration, and it is actually a question that I have.

 

In the monistic deterministic chaos model of quantum reality, a singular chaotic oscillation (that underlies our entire cosmic manifestation) moves through absolute space at an almost infinite speed. This means it moves almost infinitely faster than the (limited) speed of any manifest change in our perceived world, such as the speed of light. The oscillation must, in fact, be moving so fast that it can ‘refresh’ our entire cosmic projection of reality within just a fraction of a millisecond, so that our consciousness can perceive it as our familiar continuously evolving world.

 

When the speed of all manifest change in our projection of reality is ‘dictated’ by this universal oscillation, then it can be argued that absolute time doesn’t exist in our consciously perceived world, only relative time exists (sounds familiar doesn’t it). Strictly speaking, time does not exist at all in our world, only ‘sequential order of quantum events’ exists.

 

Theoretically it may even be possible to slow down our perception of time, simply by increasing the ‘sample frequency’ of our conscious perception. Consequently we will then perceive ‘more’ of reality or an ‘extended reality’. Also note that if this sample frequency could be infinite (which it cannot be, because in a way our perception is part of the oscillation), we would perceive nothing but a dimensionless point in empty space.

 

Kind regards, Bart

[Ravindran Kesavan]

 

Theoretically it may even be possible to slow down our perception of time, simply by increasing the ‘sample frequency’ of our conscious perception. Consequently we will then perceive ‘more’ of reality or an ‘extended reality’. Also note that if this sample frequency could be infinite (which it cannot be, because in a way our perception is part of the oscillation), we would perceive nothing but a dimensionless point in empty space.

 

Kind regards, Bart

 

Dear Bart,

Thanks for your clarification. In fact there is an experience of various relative scales of time in different frames of the world perceptions. I shall deal with that little latter, in these sequence of my experiences. Your point of one single dimensionless point generating the entire universe is also is an experience, though I did not experience it as a Point in the strict Geometric sense. But I did experience a single source beyond space and time generating space, time and the universe more of that latter. Your conjectures are well supported by my direct experience.

 

Let me move on to some more of my experience. But before that, let me summarize the first three days essential insight as these fight insights provided the schema to comprehend the rest of my mystical experiences.

(1) I saw my body as an assemblage of cells evolved over a period of time right from protozoa to human. Let me call the body of cells the Cell body – the cell body is made up of gross chemical elements, (and the compounds of them).

(2) I saw the entire evolution sequence in terms a Life energy meridian structure. Let me call it the Pranic meridian.

(3) I saw the evolution sequence in terms a neural software programming. I have a Nerogram. Each species has a specific neurogram and that specific neurogram is responsible for generating a phenomenal (and conceptual) world for the creature.

The neurogram is the central concept that helped me to comprehend all the rest of my experience. The world is relative to, or contingent upon, the neurogram.

I saw that, in the case of a human brain (I mean my brain), the brain is yet unused neural networks presently nonfunctional. These dormant neural nets can be opened up and activated. I saw clearly when I chanted the mantra this was happening to my brain. That is, the mantra has an intimate link with the neurogram. I saw how the mantra that I was chanting is altering my usual neurogram and completely newer versions of neurogram came to effect. Depending up on the type of neurogram , I saw the world differently. In fact day by day I saw (i.e., perceived and conceived) the world differently. My familiar world dissipated to give rise to newer and newer worlds. This is the crux of the following many many days of my mystical experiences. Some of the visions I had can be describable in already familiar words. Some required completely new vocabularies as the worlds I say are not the normal ones and nothing in those experiences corresponded to the normal words and language we presently possess. Some were completely out of the realm of language, that part of my experience is Mystical in the sense it is Ineffable.

Perhaps these dormant potentials belong to the future evolutionary states. I thought that these belong to future evolution of human. That is, not only the past record is preserved in the brain even future blueprint is already present. Though I am not objectively sure of this but there are reasons to believe that these experiences belong to future human kind. The reason is that I saw these states as a natural sequence of unfolding of the experience in my forward phase of the evolution sequence in the fourth day on wards.

The fourth day on wards

In my fourth day, I found that my dormant portion of the neural network opening up and activating new neurograms then I say an amazing vision I saw my body – my skin boundry - growing in size and it included the entire universe. Now I say the universe inside my body. Everything that existed in the universe existed in my body. The five elements, the earth, the oceans, the fire, the air the space, the stars, the galaxy and the black hole…, everything. My body contained the entire macrocosm and I witnessed the emergence and evolution and dissolution of the universe in side my body. This I call the Viswaupa the universal form.

This mega experience continued day after day to reveal me many aspects of the universe some known to the scientists as scientific cosmology some yet to be found in science but could be found in religious writings and some completely new – At least I did not read of them so for any where. (I shall come to these, latter some other time)

Apart from the scientific cosmology, which I will not describe and waste your time, as you know it, I shall note two facts. One: that mystic claim: Whatever is there out side – the entire macrocosm is there in the body – the macrocosm. And hence all that is there to know in the universe could be known through a mystical trance – an internal intuitive vision. Entire science could be learned by a non empirical mode of knowing from with in one’s own body. Two: the inner vision is more broader and deeper than the scientific method of empiricism could reveal. There are many aspects of reality that I found in my direct intuitive experience that empirical method cannot reveal. For example, consider the Visva rupa (Universal form) in the body. Not only the entire evolutionary memory is contained in the body (which I learn from now that science could account for) but the entire history of the evolution of the universe is contained in the body. I don’t know how to make sense of this with scientific rigor.

 

Here I have a choice: Either I accept the scientific tenet and assume that what I saw is an illusion, as there is nothing like that in the body. Or I assume that science is inadequate and some how the body mirrors the universe in the mystic’s style. Well I know now for certain that the mystic experience exists as I witnessed myself. But what I am still not clear about is that it is just a vision produced by my brain program, or there is a real basis to it.

Right now the only case for science of religion is that, what I saw is still comes under the preview of science, as the vision is not a nothing, sprang out of nowhere but the product of a neurogram. There is a basis of the vision in terms of my brain processes. But this is still not a perfect justification for the vision being objectively real, as it could be a truth merely existing in the mind alone.

What do you think of this issue? Is it possible that our brain or the cells or the DNA molecule could contain the entire history of the evolution of matter itself from the big bank onwards, with all the chemical evolution preceding forming DNA? To my mind this seems to be impossibility.

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[Ravindran Kesavan]

 

.

The shaman taps into this inner DNA with visions. Serpent twining.

 

When I was a child I realized the universes reside within - universe upon universe. Buddha also claims the same in some texts. The shaman also.

 

We can vision quest into all structure and knowledge because it is within the DNA structure. We can gain knowledge of medicine, science, the universe...mysteries, sacred texts....all within the internal code.

 

The shaman for example found the mystery of plant healing from within etc.

 

 

 

Dear Bija,

Thanks for sharing that. I know this inner way of knowing the universe or any knowledge for that matter is a true fact. Do you have any ideal of how this is working out? Any explanation? Conjectures? Conjectures from your own direct experience is more valuable.

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[bija]

Bart touched on it Ravindran. The DNA and its structure may contain all knowledge of material intelligence.

 

As far as practical experience goes I can only found my self discoveries with an intuitive knowing. To be honest the process of self-understanding is evolving. For me this gnosis is within, even if only partly known. For some time I studied the nature of psychotropics as a way of tapping the source. I first began that exploration as a teenager, a very risky approach from a past samskara. I found that without being part of a tradition, such as shamanism, the mode of ignorance (in entheogen use) was overwhelming for me. But eventually that mode led to my awakening and deeper insight, as the afflicted ego collapsed. I experienced a ten year total collapse of ego structure, and a new founded spiritual based self. Some professionals have expressed their amazement at my recovery and actualization. Ofcourse they have no idea of who I truly am, and my motivations to collapse the ego through such methodology. With self knowledge I am now aware of my samskaras (impressions of past lives).

 

Much of these gnostic interests, and investigations have been with me most of my life. But over the last few years, and recently more so, the search for Sri Krsna in simple devotion has captivated me. Needless to say old practices have been left behind.

 

Gurudeva said to me this year, I need to go deeper than my mystical encounters. Following his instruction I have had a glimpse of something very sweet and simple, satisfying to my soul. What has been accumulated in my subtle body for many births, will be let go of in due course.

 

Infact I am of the strong opinion, that a simple direct encounter with Bhagavad Gita and accepting Sri Krsna in devotional service, will open up the real mystery within. Pure spiritualism and personalism.

 

I have found birth after birth a disatisfaction with the speculative approach, even confusion during the course. The gift of simplicity of Vraj rasa and the Holy Name, in the mood of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and his followers - accepting the direct meanings of sastra, is the greatest gift given to me. Directly from my spiritual master. It is this life's treasure.

 

What I am finding is a simple approach holds greater quantity with my soul vision, which is unseen to others. And my old habits of mystic yoga and speculation slowly leaving my mind. The desires are still there, but presently I have desired to let go.

 

Ofcourse this is just my personal spiritual encounter.

 

y.s.

 

p.s. as a psychologist you may find it of interest to research Ayahuasca and shamanism. In Switzerland they are doing research into entheogens. The ancient shamanic way holds keys to future psychiatric medicine. I know this intuitively. Please track down Jan Kounens film 'Other Worlds'.

 

http://otherworlds.jankounen.com/

 

This Serpent knowledge lies within and can be activated with shamanic practice. The serpent twining visions, of the DNA.

 

My mothers ancestory is South American Indian.

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Dear Bija,

Thanks for sharing. I can empathise with you on your pure simple bakt, as many of my mystical experience in fact came to me by bakti of goddess. I dint do much of yogic and tantric practice. It is all a showering grace of the goddess.

I can understand you, though I am differently made and following a different path now.

Regards,

K.Ravindran