Does 'free will' Exist?

[bija]

 

I can understand you, though I am differently made and following a different path now.

 

Most relishable. A pleasure to chat.

[Bart Happel]

 

... Perhaps these dormant potentials belong to the future evolutionary states. I thought that these belong to future evolution of human. That is, not only the past record is preserved in the brain even future blueprint is already present. Though I am not objectively sure of this but there are reasons to believe that these experiences belong to future human kind. The reason is that I saw these states as a natural sequence of unfolding of the experience in my forward phase of the evolution sequence in the fourth day on wards ...

 

Dear Ravindran,

 

Thanks again. Regarding your suggestion that unused neural nets or dormant potentials are already laid out in advance for future evolution of human consciousness and future Neurograms, I have a different (speculative) suggestion that may still comply with your experience, but seems to provide a better explanation for the existence of unused neural structures in the brain.

 

Perhaps unused structures in our brain are ‘neural relics’ of our past evolution and were once used by our evolutionary ancestors, and as such they are still encoded in our DNA. Maybe these structures are not expressed in modern humans exactly as they were expressed in our more primitive ancestors, but in some form they may have once served to ‘run’ more primitive Neurograms. Many complex animal behaviors that we simply call ‘instinctive’, may be understood when the animals perceive a different manifest reality from our own, in which instinctive behavior would appear to be just ‘ordinary’ stimulus response driven behavior. Indeed, the highly complex organized behavior of animals as simple as ants is a complete mystery to us. However, when we would perceive the world via the ant’s Neurogram it might be completely understandable.

 

This means that when you are tapping into your dormant neural potentials via mystical experience, then in a way you are (partly) regressing to an earlier evolutionary consciousness or Neurogram that exploits these unused neural structures. It can even be speculated that in future human evolution, they will once again be part of our consciousness, although such ancient potentials may have an entirely different function in our future consciousness.

 

 

 

... What do you think of this issue? Is it possible that our brain or the cells or the DNA molecule could contain the entire history of the evolution of matter itself from the big bank onwards, with all the chemical evolution preceding forming DNA? To my mind this seems to be impossibility.

 

It may be evident from the forgoing that it is possible that our brain contains the complete neural substrate necessary to accommodate all Neurograms of our past evolution. And the entire history of the universe may be contained in ‘universal consciousness’. The modern human brain may then have access to this history.

 

Kind regards, Bart

[bija]

Ravindran your ideas of a future evolution seem to correlate with Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and his book The Phenomenon of Man. He called it the Omega Point.

 

 

This means that when you are tapping into your dormant neural potentials via mystical experience, then in a way you are (partly) regressing to an earlier evolutionary consciousness or Neurogram that exploits these unused neural structures.It can even be speculated that in future human evolution, they will once again be part of our consciousness, although such ancient potentials may have an entirely different function in our future consciousness. by bart

 

Interesting Bart. Here is a side thought. All babies are born with a form of synesthesia, where the senses are conglomerated. One mass of sensate feeling.

 

Adult synesthesia is vastly different. The sense crossovers are distinct and not one mass. This regression you talk about would be like going back to the infantile...whereas the mature (fully evolved) destiny is the full personality in concordance with all functioning parts. It is interesting for me what you say, as a synesthete I can see parallels.

http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11303

 

These ideas of a future destiny where discussed by Teilhard de Chardin over 50 years ago. He was a priest, and qualified scientists (peking man). Ofcourse his writings were banned by the church...released after his death. He was a fully commited 'personalist' and spoke of an omega point...and full christization of the cosmos.

[bija]

His work was one of the originals in this modern line of thought.

 

Such theory was before the study of para-psychology and transpersonal took foothold. These sciences are still held with skepticism in some scientific circles.

 

In regards to this evolution in discussion, mankind is not ready for full use of brain potential. Mechanistic man has made devices which can destroy the whole planet, what to say if irresponsible man understood the subtle science. Even preliminary studies of the subtle science where hidden in schools of esoterica, for fear of misuse.

 

The evolving man will only be ready for full evolution when its need for control is relinquished. Constitutionally the seed form and the full bloom is a particle servant. When that is realized by the mass, then the higher intelligence will be fully realized by the parts.

 

Then words like 'para' will be integral to the living entities. Such would not be revealed to the not yet unfolded being, on a grand scale, otherwise seperated man would destroy itself. This is the wisdom of divine. In due course each will actualize and become an integral part.

 

Until fullness many will not realize those who walk the earth with evolved integration. A time is set that only the divine knows for each.

 

This is my understanding of future destiny.

[suchandra]

 

In regards to this evolution in discussion, mankind is not ready for full use of brain potential. Mechanistic man has made devices which can destroy the whole planet, what to say if irresponsible man understood the subtle science.

Thanks for these eye-opening infos, indeed as Annie Leonard highlights below, we are caught in a hamster wheel. But will people ever understand this message?

 

Challenging Materialism

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqWddQWE6_s&feature=email

 

 

 

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqWddQWE6_s&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344">

[Bart Happel]

 

... In regards to this evolution in discussion, mankind is not ready for full use of brain potential. Mechanistic man has made devices which can destroy the whole planet, what to say if irresponsible man understood the subtle science. Even preliminary studies of the subtle science where hidden in schools of esoterica, for fear of misuse. ...

 

Dear Bija,

 

I think there may be a profound difference between understanding consciousness, and being able to apply full conscious potential to whatever one wants without proper spiritual preparation. Scientific understanding can be a boost to religious awareness and consequently to religious practice and a way of life that will ultimately enable an individual to access its full spiritual potential. And by then he/she will be ready, I guess..

 

Kind regards, Bart

[bija]

Yes I appreciate what you say Bart. We must define what religion means. In the vedic scripture religiosity was a process to bring certain benefit. We can see one example of this in western historic tradition. The empire of the roman catholic church. The religion was aimed at bringing a ritualistic order to society for certain aims as a group on a societal level, and an individual level.

 

Which the church as the centre piece, economic development as a flourishing entity took foot. This religion was considered the dharma (eternal goal and occupation). From the economic development each individual could be satisfied with a certain affluence, ease of life attained then tthe goal of life, liberation/salvation, focused upon without hindrance. Obviously the concept was totally flawed, and the marginalized rose up in reformation.

 

We have seen the same ideology in different forms in many societies throughout history, from ancient egyptian, sumerian, mayan...even western man. Ofcourse the god's change in due course into so many 'isms' even capitalism and freedomism etc.

 

Your idea of science boosting the religious experience is justified. But that experience, even with the most subtle of sciences will not be 'pure' spiritualism (transcendence). The transcendence is simply that. It is spirit, which pervades all...which is above all materialistic goals such as religion and various other dharmas.

 

Infact such dharmas are not to be rejected but utilized (even this scientific 'ism' your are suggesting). But if these materilaistic dharmas become the goal, we are sorely missing the point of existence.

 

As mans consciousness becomes more free of external, ascending processes, and hears buddhi (descending intelligence from param-atma within)....things become very simple. Any intelligent man (a great example in the video given by suchandra) will realize the great need, and essential quality of simplicity. If man does not find that simplicity and self-satisfaction, he will always look outward, identify as controller of various objects.

 

Vision of the summum bonum in all simplicity is within. It is vraja-rasa. A radical shift in consciousness. A profound science of consciosness. A transformative experience in consciousness. The supreme liberation of consciousness from gross ideals. Integral love of God. Integral servitude.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam states that the supreme science has been given in vedic sastra, but man has no interest in it. The cream of the vedic literature is so simple, (incarnation of god), that modern man's pride either discards it wholesale, or makes commentary upon it complexifying it. And essentially missing the point.

 

Lord Caitanya's meaning is deeply esoteric, and far from fundamentalist. He advised the speculators to take the direct meanings from scripture, then all will be revealed. He said the mayavadi philosophers (those who extract from material realm) take the indirect approach and therefore miss the essential meaning. The sastric aphorisms are considered penned by Vyasadeva, Gods incarnation in word. The faithful accept this. Originating from sound vibration. Science will understand sound in due course...

 

Is man ready for simplicity? Can full diversity truly be simple (and not complex)? Is it man's necessity to know the full workings of the summum bonum? After liberation, will man know all? Or will man be satisfied in its true constitution, as a tiny spark? In divine bliss, in transcendental simplicity?

 

These are just some thoughts, that may be well hidden from modern mechanistic man. In due course, as great need arises, maybe the saying of christ will come true...'the meek will inherit the earth'.

[bija]

Please understand I am in no way discrediting your scientific approach and the vision you see. The vaisnava is not caught in the dark ages, or the illusory spiritualism of renunciation. Or some fundamentalist fantasy based on archaic world view.

 

The vaisnava follows a philosophy of application, founded upon scripture of great scientific merit. The science of modern man, and excellent thinkers like you and Ravindran, can well be applied to the vision of vedic simplicity.

 

At some point though Krsna's words may ring true for each of us, 'abandon all variety of religion and surrender unto me. Do not fear, I will deliver you from all sinful reaction'. If there is a higher intelligence guiding man..the future is very bright. The pure spiritualist may be a pioneer, a proto-type, which will manifest in due course. Never discounting the advancement of man's unfoldment...dovetailed in devotional service (vasudeva conception - all in all conception).

 

These thoughts and ideas are what I have gleaned from Srila Prabhupada and other instructing Guru's. Their teachings are not static, but can be applied in ever-new ways for time and place, as the core is eternal.

[Bart Happel]

Yes Bija,

 

This scientific truth that (for example) Ravindran and I are after, is extremely simple and yet produces all complexity in our world. And one does not need to know all the scientific details. The simple truth will be proved, proclaimed and authorized by science. This alone may be an incentive for many to search for this simplicity within themselves. And per individual the path may be different (including checking out the proof for oneself).

 

Apparently, scripture is not enough to convert humanity (I wonder why). Maybe some scientific proof will do the trick (it’s just a different language after all, but more formal).

 

We can call this truth: God, Krishna, Christ, Allah, or Brahman. They probably are all one.

 

Kind regards, Bart

[bija]

 

Apparently, scripture is not enough to convert humanity (I wonder why). by bart

 

Firstly, what is conversion. That is mundane thinking. Spirit cannot be converted...only temporary designations change.

 

One reason that comes to mind straightway Bart, why scripture has not awoken people to the reality, is because false religionists have been the one's holding the holy books, preaching mundane doctrines, as mentioned in my previous post. The masses have attempted surrender to the temporary and changeable. Religious idols and structures which have been the dams and dykes of a free flowing spiritual movement. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta called these manifestation, the Putana Witch. A false mother whose nurture actually wants to kill the baby Krsna as soon as it appears in the heart of man.

 

In another thread I mentioned to Ravindran that the disciplened scientific mind, who has had real encounter with his existential identity is great hope.

 

*****************************************************

 

The real test Bart if all these approaches are one and the same, will be in our final days as we prepare to leave this body. The fruit of our life's efforts will be apparent in the state of our consciousness and heart. We will be in good standing if the fruits are offered to the Supreme Enjoyer.

 

Vedanta-sutra (the commentary on vedic literature) says the spirit souls desires are fulfilled...in other words we attain what we cultivate. It says we can manifest a spiritual body (in liberation), no body (formless), remain in the mundane engrossed in topics about matter etc etc. It has choice intrinsically. Srimad Bhagavatam is accepted by Gaudiya Vaisnava's as commentary on Vedanta also. Will its followers attain Krsna loka ( a spiritual body and realm)? These potentials are a mystery to modern science...potentiality of the spirit particle (part of the non-dual truth). Everything that comes from the Complete is complete in itself. Brahman is truth...the summum bonum. Non-dual truth. Vedanta sutra advises us to enquire into Brahman.

 

All approaches leading to the same goal? Maybe in the long term. Saying that, any self honest man, will admit his heart is full of various desires that need fulfilling.

 

 

 

Apparently, scripture is not enough to convert humanity (I wonder why). by bart

More to the question would be...why does man wish to surrender to the temporary and changeable?

[bija]

Flowing on from the presented line of thought

Vedanta Sutra Chapter One Chp 1 ....Sutra 9

 

sva—into Himself; apyat—because He merges.

 

(The Supreme Brahman described in the Vedic literatures is not bound by the modes of nature,) because He merges into Himself, (unlike the creatures bound by nature's modes, who all merge into something other than their self)

 

Purport by Shrila Baladeva VidyabhushanaThe Brihad-aranyaka Upanishad (5.1.1) explains:

om purnam adah purnam idampurnat purnam udacyatepurnasya purnam adaya purnam "

 

The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the complete whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the complete whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance."

 

This verse explains that that which is purna (perfect and complete), enters into itself. This cannot be said of that which is not perfect and complete. If the Supreme Brahman described in the scriptures were a product of the modes of material nature, then it would merge into the Supreme and not into itself. In this way it could not be described as truly perfect and complete. In this verse the word adah (this) refers to the aprakata (not manifested in the material world) form of the Supreme Lord, which is the root from which the various prakata forms of the Lord emanate. Both aprakata and prakata forms of the Lord are perfect and complete. The Lord expands from His aprakata form and appears in the material world in His prakata form, displaying His rasa-lila and other transcendental pastimes. When the prakata form of the Lord leaves the material world and enters the aprakata form of the Lord, the Lord remains unchanged, eternally perfect and complete. That the Lord is untouched by the modes of material nature, and that He expands into many forms, are confired by the following statement of smriti-shastra:

 

nirgunah purushottamah

eki-bhuya punah shete

nirdosho harir adi-krit

 

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead is faultless. Even though He is the original creator of the material world, He remains always untouched by matter. He expands in innumerable vishnu-tattva incarnations, and then these incarnations enter Him and He again becomes one."

 

At this point someone may raise the following objection: There are actually two kinds of Brahman: Saguna Brahman (Brahman enmeshed in the modes of material nature), and Nirguna Brahman (Brahman untouched by the modes of material nature). The first, or Saguna Brahman, has a form constructed of the mode of material goodness. This Saguna Brahman is the omnisicent, all-powerful creator of the material universes. The second, or Nirguna Brahman, is pure transcendental existence only. This Nirguna Brahman is pure, perfect, and complete. The Saguna Brahman is the shakti (potency) described by the Vedas, and the Nirguna Brahman is the tatparya (meaning) of the Vedas.

 

Shrila Vyasadeva refutes this argument by explaining, in the next sutra:

 

gati—the conception; samanyat—because of uniformity.

 

(This is not so) because the Vedas describe only one kind of Brahman.

 

Purport by Shrila Baladeva Vidyabhushana

In this sutra the word gati means "conception." The Vedic literatures describe Brahman as full of transcendental knowledge, omniscient, omnipotent, perfect, complete, pure, the all-pervading Supersoul, the original creator of the material universes, the object of worship for the saintly devotees, and the bestower of liberation. The Vedas do not describe two kinds of Brahman: Nirguna and Saguna. Rather, the Vedas describe only one kind of Brahman. This one Brahman is described by Lord Krishna in the following words (Bhagavad-gita 7.7):

 

mattah parataram nanyat

kincid asti dhananjaya

mayi sarvam idam protam

sutre mani-gana iva

"O conqueror of wealth, there is not truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon me as pearls strung on a thread."

Thus the Vedic literatures describe only one kind of Brahman: Nirguna Brahman. Shrila Vyasadeva describes this Nirguna Brahman in the next sutra:

 

shrutatvac ca

 

shrutavat—because of being described in the Vedas; ca—and.(There is only one kind of Brahman: Nirguna Brahman), because Nirguna Brahman is described throughout the Vedic literatures.

 

Purport by Shrila Baladeva Vidyabhushana

Nirguna Brahman is described in the following statement of Shvetashvatara Upanishad (6.11):

 

eko devah sarva-bhuteshu gudhah

sarva-vyapi sarva-bhutantaratma

karmadhyakshah sarva-bhutadhivasah

sakshi ceta kevalo nirgunash ca

 

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead manifests Himself as the all-pervading Supersoul, the witness present in the hearts of all living entities. He witnesses all activities of the living entity. He is the supreme living force. He is transcendental to all material qualities."

In this way Nirguna Brahman is described in the shruti-shastra. The shruti-shastra does not say that it is impossible to describe Brahman. Some say that Brahman may be understood not from the direct statements of the Vedic literatures, but merely indirectly, or from hints found in the Vedic texts. This is not the correct understanding, for if the Vedic scriptures had no power to directly describe Brahman, then naturally they would also not have any power to indirectly describe Him or hint about Him. The Vedic literatures may say that Brahman has no contact with gunas (either qualities, or the three modes of material nature), and He cannot be seen by material eyes (adrishya), still it does not say that the words of the Vedas have no power to describe Him.

 

At this point someone may raise the following objection: Is it not said in the Vedas that Brahman has no gunas (qualities)? Your statement that Brahman has qualities contradicts the description of the scriptures.

 

To this I reply: This is not true. You can only say this because you do not understand the confidential meaning of the word nirguna. Because the Supreme Brahman is all-knowing and possess many transcendental qualitites, when the scriptures say that He is nirguna, it should be understood to mean that He has no (nih) contact with the three modes of material nature (guna).

 

This is confirmed by the following statements of smriti-shastra:

 

sattvadayo na shantishe

yatra caprakrita gunah

 

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who possesses numberless transcendental qualities, is eternally free from the touch of the three modes of material nature: goodness, passion, and ignorance."

samasta-kalyana-gunatmako 'sau

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead possesses all auspicious qualities."

For all these reasons it should be accepted that the Vedic literatures have the power to describe the perfect, pure, complete Supreme Brahman. When it is said by the scriptures that the Supreme Brahman has no names, forms, or qualities it should be understood that the Supreme Brahman has no material names, forms, or qualities, and that His names, forms and qualities are limitless and beyond the counting of limited spirit souls

At this point someone may object, saying that the literal interpretation of the Vedic statements is that Brahman is without qualities (nirguna), and your interpretation of the word nirguna is wrong.

To this objection I reply: Does this description that Brahman has no qualities help to positively undertand Brahman? If you say yes, then you have to admit that the Vedas do have the power to describe Brahman; and if you say no, then you have to admit that your careful studies of the Vedic literature have been a great waste of time, and as a result you remain wholly ignorant of Brahman's real nature....

Full Vedanta Sutra Vedanta Sutra

[Ravindran Kesavan]

 

Regarding your suggestion that unused neural nets or dormant potentials are already laid out in advance for future evolution of human consciousness and future Neurograms, I have a different (speculative) suggestion that may still comply with your experience, but seems to provide a better explanation for the existence of unused neural structures in the brain.

 

Perhaps unused structures in our brain are ‘neural relics’ of our past evolution and were once used by our evolutionary ancestors, and as such they are still encoded in our DNA.

 

Dear Bart,

The discussion prompts me to jump of quickly the sequence that I planed for my presentation of the mystical experience. Let me present certain material that I thought I will present latter, though at the cast of thoroughness and adequate clarity. What I present is a little sketchy as I am not presenting the ideas fully is a detained manner, and jumping off the sequence of ideas. .

It is true that the circuits of the past that fall out of use in evolution lies dormant in our neural structures. Nothing is lost. On this I have direct experience. Based on this fact to consider that that all dormant portions are to do with the past seems unlikely. I have reasons to believe that certain dormant portions have to do with future potentials, rather than with the past relics.

My reasons are:

 

(1) Sequence of experience: In my regression of the evolution sequence I did not notice these neural circuits and programs at any subhuman stage. I noticed they came to be effective in the progressive stage after the human stage.

(2) Complexity: I noticed the neurogram of subhuman stages are less complex than the human neurogram and the neurogram that I found associated with the dormant state that unfolded latter than human were higher in complexity than the present human neurogram.

(3) Knowledge: The neurogram is responsible is generating knowledge of the world. While the pre human neurogram are much simpler and primitive in schemes of knowing the world and the knowledge generated by the neurogram that unfolded at the post human stage as I experienced is more sophisticated and tally with the lattest scientific view of the world. For example while in my regressive stage no where I found the world to be as science describes it, and seen it as sense experience of a simpler kind, when the post human neurogram unfolded I found the world to be a pattern of energy and latter when still more complex higher neurogram unlashed, I found the world to be strings of vibrating things – mantras. I saw the world as a web of mantras which tally with the string theory notion of the universe and this I could find nowhere in the lower species that I witnessed. ( I did not know any thig about the scientific string theory when I experienced this vision) My logical understanding also changed with the unfolding of these neurograms. I could naturally think with quantum logic rather than the Aristotelian logic (which I used in the more mundane human phase and at animal level of existence I did not find any conscious use of logic at all).

(4) Power: I found that the power increased along with knowledge as natural application of knowledge. I found that the new neurogram that unfolded in my brain is associated with technological and super human powers, which no animals possess. For example during this phase I intuitively gained knowledge on how to trigger and unlash fission in ridiculasly simple ways , how to invent space ships, how to harness the power from the black hole, etc. ( All of which I feared and I prayed to god to errase these knowledge from my brain. Latter I forgot them neatly and unrecoverably - But I vouch that these are real posibilities , not my imagination - more of it perhaps latter) I also saw the possibility of super human (Yogic) feats like clairaudience, clairvoyance, x- ray vision telekinesis, transmigration to another body, etc.

(5) Extra terrestrial and heavenly worlds: When the neurogram of what I call future potentials unfolded I simultaneously also experienced corresponding worlds where creatures of the appropriate neurograms lived. They were all creatures far advanced in science and technology and spiritual wisdom with worlds more beautiful and perfect than ours, which they seems to have created by their knowledge. There is a perfection and advancement that this new neurograms are associated with that the old animalistic one does not share.

Though the idea that future development is all already coded in the organism is against the essential teaching of Darwinian evolution, and makes evolution a teleological process – that is evolution is nor a random chance causal processes but a intelligent purposive teleological process – my experience strongly suggests such a possibility.

But I am not natural scientists and have no empirical experimental evidence for what I am saying. There is a possibility That I could be wrong and there are other possible explanations for my experiences.

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[Bart Happel]

 

... Though the idea that future development is all already coded in the organism is against the essential teaching of Darwinian evolution, and makes evolution a teleological process – that is evolution is nor a random chance causal processes but a intelligent purposive teleological process – my experience strongly suggests such a possibility. ...

 

Dear Ravindran,

 

I must think about this. It is a possibility in the chaos model, though. The main consideration is that phase-projections of the singular oscillation (necessarily) display (evolving) ‘self-similar’ structures (e.g., multiple evolving similar universes and universes within similar universes, etc.). In order to preserve self-similarity, any evolution or change in any universe at any scale must necessarily be ‘followed’ by a similar evolution or change within all universes at all scales. So if more advanced conscious organisms evolved in any universe, this may have ‘driven’ human evolution in our own universe. It may be like Rupert Sheldrake’s ‘morphic resonance theory’, acting at an inter universal scale. And since our brain is just part of our cosmic manifestation, what is actually ‘co-evolving’ is our consciousness.

 

Kind regards, Bart

[Bart Happel]

Dear Ravindran,

 

Here’s another question/consideration for you:

 

In your experience you saw string-like shapes pervading the entire universe. And you speculated that these could be the fundamental (unitary) strings of quantum string theory. The following is essentially what I think I understand of string theory:

 

String theory predicts the existence of consistent quantum field theories within spacetime dimensions (degrees of freedom) higher than our familiar four dimensions (three space dimensions and one time dimension). And the requirement of local interactions (usually present as a basic principle in ordinary quantum field theories) can, at least theoretically, be dropped in string theory. It might then be possible to define a ‘nonlocal’ quantum field theory (without a coupling constant) that models all local forces in nature as well as nonlocal gravity. In string theories, nonlocal (gravitational) interactions are explained by fundamental strings (tiny vibrating lines without mass) that can stretch between different points in spacetime. By mediating some force between nonlocal points, strings could create mass and gravity. This means, string theory could ultimately become the quantum gravitational field theory that unifies quantum mechanics and general relativity theory. Furthermore, the necessary extra dimensions (e.g., six in string theory and seven in M-theory) are believed to be extremely small (compacted). Therefore, the geometrical shape of these extra dimensions and the different resonance frequencies of the different length strings that exist in these dimensions, may explain all the various types of observable quantum particles in nature. Many important details of string theories are still unknown, however, and gravitational string theory (if it exists at all) is commonly believed to be in its very early infancy.

 

I don’t know about you Ravindran, but personally I’m not getting a nice warm feeling when I think about string theory. I think quantum chaos theory is much simpler and much more powerful than any string theory. Especially when it comes to understanding reality as it is. Maybe the strings that you saw were some perceivable aspect of a unitary chaotic oscillation.

 

Kind regards, bart

[gHari]

If you look at these fractal pictures, you may feel as I did - that all we see could be as simple as these iterative equations: http://www.alicia-logic.com/fractals/

 

Xn+1 ==> (Xn * Xn) + c ------- could it all be so simple, yet producing innumerable unique possibilities.

 

<center>

 

 

<img src=http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/attachment.php?attachmentid=1837&stc=1&d=1221624990></center>

[Ravindran Kesavan]

 

I don’t know about you Ravindran, but personally I’m not getting a nice warm feeling when I think about string theory. I think quantum chaos theory is much simpler and much more powerful than any string theory. Especially when it comes to understanding reality as it is. Maybe the strings that you saw were some perceivable aspect of a unitary chaotic oscillation.

 

 

Dear Bart,

 

I perhaps can agree on this with you . I used the word strings not very literlally though there are lots of similarity between strings of the string theorist and what I saw.

 

If You are tollerent of some bizarre stuff, I can right away introduce what my exact perception was.

 

What I saw can be more adequately described as mantras. - sound vibrations. Everything in the universe is ultimately sounds - this is the perception. And these ultimate sounds basically very few. Five vovals ( from the sanscrit vovals) and five consonents. To be specific the vowels are A, I , U , Ri Lri and the consonents are H, Y, V , R , L.

Of course these are the basic sounds of the entire existence They construct other sounds by combinations and the compunds thus formed permute to form strings of sound paterns to generate very complex patterns .

 

This is what I called srtrings. I called it strings because they are vibrating things much like vibrations of a guitar strings. I shall post some more on this soon.

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[Amlesh]

Should say both Ravindran and Bart have really mind boggling ways [at least to me] to reach the conclusions of Truth; but definitely your discussions will benefit many.

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Dear Bart,

Let me now depart from the more or less scientific insights to religious insights proper that I gained in my experience. I shall provide the link between the science and religious experience through the concept of Neurogram. Though I am trying my level best to make sense through rational concepts still many of my ideas in this post might sound bizarre. Do forgive me for my inability to communicate my direct experience more clearly.

Though there are many varieties of neurograms and each composes the world differently, generally, to adopt a grand classification system, neurogram has three qualitatively distinct hierarchical structures. The lowest structure takes up the external stimulus, computes and outputs the sensory phenomenal world. This is the type of neurogram that we human have, and is the type we share with the entire variety of species on earth right from protozoa. While the complexity increases as the level of evaluation is higher, the quality remains the same. That is all the neurograms of all the creatures outputs a phenomenal world in terms of senses: Visual, Auditary, Somatosensory , Olfactory and gustatory, as a response to the real world. Not that all creatures have all five, but the general quality of experience of all creature is the same. They all experience the world through these set of sensory modes.

Next level of neurogram is qualitatively different from this. It takes the input from the world and outputs an energy configuration. At this level one sees the world as energy configurations, in terms of five fundamental energies. (Present science tally with the energy view. Where it differs from my experience is as to the number of fundamental forces. Science recognizes four fundamental forces, instead of five, as the foundation of the universe).

The third level neurogram is qualitatively different from this even. This highest level neurogram outputs sound patterns- Mantras. The world is experienced as a system of mantra strings. (This might have something intimate to do with the string theory view of the universe) These mantra strings are made up of five elementary sounds. (They are H, Y, R, V, and L.) In addition to these five , which are closely associated with the material world , there are five more associated with the inner reality pertaining to mind and consciousness , these are the five the sounds A, I , Ri, U and Lri.) Everything in the universe could be perceived as made up of these sounds in complex permutations and patterns. Though these elementary sounds are foundational the actual perception was more complex. These elementary sounds by combination generate more sound codes and form the whole code system resulting in to a universal language that closely resembles the Sanskrit language. These sound codes are the bases of the universe. I perceived the entire universe to be a symphony, of a celestial song, in a primordial and universal language very close to that of Vedas. I heard Veda like chants from the very universe – nay the universe was this very Veda like chant. I am qualifying it as ‘Veda like’ because what I heard is more perfect in form and music, then the presently available Vedas and its intonated singing practiced by the Vedic priests. . Veda is an approximation to the song of the Universe.

On three worlds

I saw the world in three distinct perspectives depending on the neurogram that was active. I saw the world as matter. I also saw world as an energy pattern - as force field. I also saw world as pure mantra structure. Everything in the world was mantra, a mere sound pattern – not the sound heard by the ears, but the sound of vibrating energy of some sort of strings. Ultimately everything is mantra – vibrating sounds. These sounds appear to be energy at a lower level and finally as matter at lowest level of perception.

 

On three bodies

Just like there are three realms of the world I found three bodies in me. The first was the cell body made up of chemical element and compound. The next was the prana body made up life energy (Prana) meridians. And I saw myself possessing a pure mantra formmadeup of pure sound frequencies. This is called Pranava Body (Pranava = sound, in Sanskrit). Of the three, Mantra body is the cause. (The Pranava body is made up of five elementary sounds A, I , Rri , U and Lri )

Once mantra body undergoes a change for whatever reason, it soon alters the prana body and finally the cellular body. I say the possibility of application of this in healing practice. It is a belief in some system of healing that diseases could be cured my prana therapy or by pure mantra. There ios a possibility of this because much before the disease manifest in the physical body, it originates in the mantra body by way of distortions in the mantra structure, and descends to pranic level and finally to physical level.

I also saw the possibility of completely transmuting the physical body in to pranic body and finally in to mantra body. I say visions of being living in certain advanced worlds doing this feat when they die. That is they don’t die but transmute their physical cellular body in to pure mantra body.

On evolution

I noticed evolution occurs at three qualitatively distinct phases. The first phase of evolution is the cellular body evolution dictated the laws of nature. This lasts till one reaches human form. The present human form and human neurogram is not the final level of evolution. There a little more to be evolved but the general neurogram quality will not change though complexity will increase. The next post-human evolution is characterized by technological progress. In the near future human race will progress tremendously in science and technology, would discover a Unified Theory and invent Space Ship would migrates to different planets in space, would solve food and the energy scarcity. And would construct and live in technological paradises. That would be the end of the physical evolution- evolution with cellular body. The physical body would stop evolving then.

The next phase is the evolution is of prana body and is dictated by the laws of karma. This develops the race of Adepts – with superhuman powers to levitate travel everywhere at will becoming as big as a galaxy or as universe or as a particle living as long as one desire etc. All these powers are natural to the prana body, disembodied from the gross material cellular body.

The third phase is the evolution of the mantra body resulting in god race. Gods have only pure mantra form. Evolution of this form depends on god’s grace and mantra initiation by guru and practice. Laws of Mantra dictates the evolution of this form.

On Beings and Realms

These three kinds live in three realms.

The material beings live in various material realms – real planets of various kinds. Depending on the level of advancement in evolution of the inhabiting beings the worlds have various levels of beauty abundance, some resembling very much like earth some like heavens and paradises of mythologies. They are realms that are more perfect and joyous. They could be compared to the heavens of religions. I am qualifying with the word ‘comparable’ cautiously to make a distinction that these realms I saw were heavenly as there were abundance and joy but I dint see any river of honey and sea of milk anywhere in the realms I witnessed. And I really think that these religious mythological descriptions of honey and milk flowing everywhere with golden mud and <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Gem</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Mountains</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> are metaphoric of abundance - not literal – based on human wishes. . What I saw actually was a beautiful world with very advanced and intelligent being with super human powers, living there like gods of mythologies. Consider them as super human civilizations. Some of the worlds are technologically advanced with space ship and the like, and created their abundance and beauty and joy with technology. These are real material worlds – real planets. There is a difference between these kinds of material heavens and the spiritual heavens described below.

There were other realms of no aging no disease and no death, with eternal youth with many super human powers. These beings are basically the second kind - Pranic beings.

Some are realms of pure mantras with no materiality. They are realms of gods.

The realms of prana and mantra are not realms that are located at some far away place from earth. Pranic being have no particular place and can live anywhere. Mantric beings live everywhere. In fact spatial consideration does not apply to them. They exist here and now in earth. We with lower level of evolution and equipped with lower neurogram cannot perceive these realms. When we change our neurogram this very earth becomes those heavens. Depending on which pranava body we embody the earth reveals as the corresponding heaven.

When I chanted a particular mantra for a particular period of time my neurogram changed to a particular kind and my pranava body changed, to become similar (if not same) of a body of the god whose mantra it was and the world transformed to the heaven of that god. Everything around is divinized. I experimented with different mantras of gods. And the world transformed (Intuitively) in to those heavens. When I chanted the Krishna mantra my soul became like <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and the very earth became Goloka. Thus Goloka and Satya loka and Siva loka are not some far away places but states of perception of the very world where we live right now.

 

 

 

 

Thus by simply chanting the mantra one can convert the world in to the respective heaven. It is simply done by the work of transmuting the awareness by transmuting the neurogram, and neurograms are the aspects of mantras. I guess this is the task that ISKON is involved with.

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[Bart Happel]

Dear Ravindran,

 

If I understand you correctly, the neurogram of the pranava body (the causal body), is the origin of all experience. You refer to this ‘original cause’ in a number of different ways. You say that the lowest level neurogram of the physical body: “takes up the external stimulus, computes and outputs the sensory phenomenal world”. The next level neurogram of the prana body: “takes the input from the world and outputs an energy configuration”. And the third level neurogram of the causal pravana body: “outputs sound patterns- Mantras”. This high level causation of all conscious experience intrigues me. Can you perhaps explain a bit more about the relation between world, body and consciousness, in terms of what is neurogrammatic input and what is neurogrammatic output? And do you think that neurogrammatic output can, in some way, become the ‘original cause’ of neurogrammatic input (i.e., can free will exist)?

 

Regarding your experience of pranava consciousness, you say: “I perceived the entire universe to be a symphony, of a celestial song, in a primordial and universal language very close to that of Vedas”. I guess that the strings of quantum string theory could produce such a symphony if the combined sound of all quantum strings in the universe would be perfectly coordinated in time. But what’s the coordinating mechanism? Chaos could easily be the choreograph/conductor of such a symphony. I never tried to translate a geometrical fractal into sound. But I believe J.S. Bach did.

 

Wouldn’t it be something, to be able to hear relativity theory?

 

Kind regards, Bart

[Ravindran Kesavan]

On Body, World and Consciousness

Dear Bart,

I shall attempt certain rudimentary level answer to your questions. The answers are not neat and clean as there are problems which I myself have not resolved rationally. I shall, state my conjectures as well as the problems with them.

As to the distinction between body, world and consciousness, body is part of the world, and made up of the same stuff that world is made up of – atoms and chemical elements. The organization differs - but it is essentially part of the world. However the distinction could be made between world and body by the presence of Prana in the body. The body of living organisms is not just matter organized and run by physical forces and chemical processes; though that is part of the body being it belongs to the material realm. What distinguishes a body from the world is that it is run by a system of pranic forces.

Consciousness is a much confused word in literature. At the very mundane level it refers to mind and starts with sense experience. Sense experience cannot be physical as we cannot find them anywhere in the physical realm. In my post no 155 I touched up on this. The greenness of the grass is not in the grass not even in the light no in the eye but a response of the brain. Even the greenness could not be found in the brain if we cut open the brain and observe it physically. Our phenomenal experience of green is supposed to be in our mind screen somehow mysteriously pops up in to our Mind when an impulse reaches and triggers certain portion of our brain. Hence strictly speaking the greenness of the grass, the coldness of the snow and the hardness of the steel are no where to be found in the physical world, not even in our brain but in the mind. Sense experience is part of cognitive system. The governing system is the information processing system which is yet different from the physical processes as well as from the pranic processes. It is here neural network and neurograms come in to picture.

 

 

Mind is considered to be conscious. With out consciousness the concept ‘mind’ makes no sense. Mind is of conscious stuff. . Hence one meaning of consciousness is that the quality of having sense experience. When we say I am conscious we mean we sense something -we are having sense experiences. These sense experiences need not be related to or aspects of the external physical world. For example when we dream, we do experience many things that are not coming from external world. Thus it is certainly possible that mental event could be the cause of another mental event. Neurogram output could be the input for the neurogram. But that does not imply free will. Not that I am denying freewill but the feedback loop in neurogram functioning doesn’t give it free will in a stricter sense of the term. As long as it is law bound free will has no justification. I shall touch up on the notion of genuine free will later. In one sense Consciousness can be equated with the very functioning of neurogram. But there are problems with this view. Consciousness implies free will. If it is merely a product of mechanical processes or if it functions like mechanical gadget then in which way we are justified to call it consciousness? Why not we call it just material gadget – may be a very complex one - (with out any consciousness). More over conscious ness seems to evade all attempts of our conceptualizing it. I shall come to it latter, after sharing my experience with a pure form of mystical consciousness.

 

My hypothesis is that when the neurogram processes information from the external world it produces the phenomenal world. When it process information from the body itself taking the signals from the living body, it produces the pranisc body. And when the neurogram turns on to itself, when it is in a reflexive mode, it generates the pranava body. Thus pranava body is something to do intimately with consciousness. But this is only a hunch. There is a hitch in this way of interpreting. The entire experience of mine has been internal exclusively. I did not physically look at the world in my mystical experience. The whole experience has been internal, when my eyes remain closed and my other sense organs were all inactive. So which way I am justified in making the distinction that I am making regarding the origin of stimulus? Did I know any thing at-all of the external universe? If the answer is affirmative then does it imply that the world exists inside my mind or consciousness? Though once I was an idealist and believed that the world is actually an illusion or hallucination existing in exclusively in consciousness, I am not that sure of that position now. There is a Realist –Idealist conflict now in my mind. This is a puzzle I need to solve.

For the time being I shall narrate my direct experience with free will – determinism issue. In one phase of my experience I witnessed that all my life events – everything that happened in my life - has been completely determined till the time of the experience. Everything is preprogrammed so as to happen that way, culminating in to the mystical experience. I saw clearly how my entire life is a program. Before I thought that I acted with free will but that is just because I did not have the deeper and holistic perspective. In my mystical state I saw the whole universe, including my life, is one single orderly design. And the design is perfect. The hole is a dance of Siva, well ordered, beautiful and perfect. All my complaints vanished in this knowledge, knowing that my life – the small individual organism that I, called I – is in fact a part of the grand dance of Siva.

However I should admit that fundamentally consciousness has to be free. If that is not the case it cannot be called consciousness at all If consciousness functions just like a mechanical gadget obeying laws. Free will exists at certain level – in the spiritual realm - not in the empirical material level. God – the consciousness behind the universe - is free and to the extend I am one with that consciousness I am free too. I shall return back to this issue latter.

Though Monism apples to me a lot spiritually - I thought I had experienced the monistic oneness in my spiritual experience- intellectually I am not sure, as there are many unresolved problems with it. Dualism seems to be an inescapable position, though I don’t emotionally like it.

I don’t know whether I have answered your questions or raised more questions on my part. Discussion I believe is the only way in these philosophical and intellectual pursuits.

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[Bart Happel]

Dear Ravindran,

 

Let me try to solve your realist/idealist (dualist/monist) problem in terms of deterministic chaos. First I will briefly discuss some limitations of chaos models of reality, and then I will tentatively explain how human consciousness may fit into a monistic chaos model of reality.

 

Because chaos is a deterministic process, ‘free will’ cannot exist at any level in a chaos model of reality; the endless evolution of a formal chaotic system is exactly determined by its ‘initial conditions’; there cannot be any free will. This absence of free will in a deterministic chaos model of reality is a limitation of such a model, and it might be a simplification of actual reality. Moreover, ‘consciousness’ is also not explicitly present in chaos. Material deterministic chaos cannot be equated with consciousness. Hence, it is only (simply/bluntly) postulated here that chaos can be a model of consciousness and that fundamental chaotic processes in reality are (mysteriously) self-conscious.

 

Although deterministic chaos obviously provides a very limited framework for understanding real consciousness, I will now try and explain some important aspects of consciousness in terms of chaos theory.

 

From the assumption that our cosmic manifestation is an illusion (or hallucination), it must be concluded that the only thing that exists is our own individual conscious mind that is creating/imagining our entire cosmic manifestation (including the Holy Scripture – as well as all other human beings that we consciously and persistently perceive). All information necessary to create such a consistently evolving manifestation of reality must then somehow ‘locally emerge’ from our individual conscious mind. And if, in addition, it is assumed that other conscious minds also exist in reality, then these other conscious minds must be locally creating/imagining their own individual cosmic manifestation of reality.

 

Indeed, characteristic fractal geometries (apparent in phase-projections of chaotic dynamical systems) demonstrate that infinitely many universes can exist in a chaos model of reality. It may then be speculated that each universe in the model is the individual cosmic manifestation of a single conscious mind. The evolution of all these universes is highly correlated in time and space, which results from the principle of (hierarchical) self-similarity in fractal structures. Consequently, the material actions and changes that any conscious mind perceives in its cosmic manifestation, will ‘co-evolve’ and be perceivable as similar actions and similar changes in our own cosmic manifestation. And, apparently, the dynamics of different universes are so finely synchronized, that locally separate conscious minds can communicate with each other!

 

The universes of the conscious minds that are active on this forum (for example) may be correlated by a ‘higher order’ universal structure, within which their own (similar) ‘lower level’ universes exist. And, although our universes must be similar to the higher order universe, our free will may concurrently change this higher order universe, which may (in turn) concurrently change our own universe. In a chaotic system everything is automatically interconnected and neatly organized; everything is one.

 

Kind regards, Bart

[bija]

 

From the assumption that our cosmic manifestation is an illusion (or hallucination), it must be concluded that the only thing that exists is our own individual conscious mind that is creating/imagining our entire cosmic manifestation (including the Holy Scripture – as well as all other human beings that we consciously and persistently perceive). All information necessary to create such a consistently evolving manifestation of reality must then somehow ‘locally emerge’ from our individual conscious mind. And if, in addition, it is assumed that other conscious minds also exist in reality, then these other conscious minds must be locally creating/imagining their own individual cosmic manifestation of reality.

Indeed, characteristic fractal geometries (apparent in phase-projections of chaotic dynamical systems) demonstrate that infinitely many universes can exist in a chaos model of reality. It may then be speculated that each universe in the model is the individual cosmic manifestation of a single conscious mind. The evolution of all these universes is highly correlated in time and space, which results from the principle of (hierarchical) self-similarity in fractal structures.by Bart

Vedanta Sutra with commentary - click here

 

I have a hunch this may bring you joy. If you choose.

[bija]

 

And, although our universes must be similar to the higher order universe, our free will may concurrently change this higher order universe, which may (in turn) concurrently change our own universe. by bart

Joseph Smith the mormon prophet was greatly influenced of hermetic, alchemical, and kabbalistic traditions in his gnosis. What you have said here Bart he has stated in his revelations. A hierarchy of intelligences.

 

It is a unique vision which says God is changeable, that matter and spirit inter-change. This goes against the un-changing Brahman of Vedanta tradition.

 

Vedanta has two theories on this. One that God has various energies, therefore there can be transformation of energy. For example milk can turn to yoghurt, but yoghurt cannot again turn to milk. This is Vaisnava Vedanta theory.

 

The other is Advaita Vedanta, which says transformation is impossible. Therefore all is illusion and false in this world. The ultimate truth lacks diverse energies and this world is merely a mis-identification. A rope/snake.

 

Joseph Smith spoke of hierarchy of intelligences (in his book of Abraham). He also stated that God was once man...and that man can be as God. One intelligence above another. That which is ordered below can be ordered above, and what is ordered above can be ordered below. He instituted the priesthood to begin sealing such things! A very powerful priesthood in effect to this day with the vision of an American Zion. Gleaned from Jewish kabbalah (tree of life). Smith's modern day church and followers reject his contact with a kabbalist.

 

The truth of the matter is all postulated here:http://www.gnosis.org/jskabb1.htm

 

I have deep interest in esoteric by the way. But hold to Vedanta Sutra as posted above.

 

This kabbalistic approach is the concept of the priesthood, which his followers have received. To manifest the Kingdom upon this earth. These concepts have been held in schools of esoterica since the middle ages in Europe. Vastly different than Vedantic thought in some fundamental ways.

 

By the way if we are leaning toward solely mind science, we may be pointing toward esoteric buddhism.

In a chaotic system everything is automatically interconnected and neatly organized; everything is one. by Bart

Pure mind.

 

 

 

your servant bija.

[bija]

 

The development of science and technology caused an expansion of the human sphere of influence, allowing a person to be simultaneously present in every corner of the world. Humanity has thus become cosmopolitan, stretching a single organized membrane over the Earth.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-8">[9]</sup> Teilhard described this process as a “gigantic psychobiological operation, a sort of mega-synthesis, the “super-arrangement” to which all the thinking elements of the earth find themselves today individually and collectively subject.”<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-9">[10]</sup> The rapid expansion of the noosphere requires a new domain of psychical expansion, which “is staring us in the face if we would only raise our heads to look at it.”<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-10">[11]

 

</sup>In Teilhard’s view, evolution will culminate in the Omega Point, a sort of supreme consciousness. Layers of consciousness will converge in Omega, fusing and consuming them in itself.<sup id="cite_ref-11" class="reference">[12]</sup> The concentration of a conscious universe would reassemble in itself all consciousnesses as well as all the conscious.<sup id="cite_ref-12" class="reference">[13]</sup> Teilhard emphasized that each particular consciousness would remain conscious of itself at the end of the operation.<sup id="cite_ref-13" class="reference">[14]</sup>

<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-10">

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Phenomenon_of_Man</sup>

This is pure personalism. No void, no loss of identity...identity always retained (Gaudiya Vaisnavism). Why retain? Simply the nature of the supreme truth (and highest intelligence - person) is love.

 

“With hominisation, in spite of the insignificance of the anatomical leap, we have the beginning of a new age. The earth gets a new skin. Better still, it finds its soul.

” <sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-16">[17]</sup>

● “Is this not like some great body which is being born-with its limbs, its nervous system, its perceptive organs, its memory-the body in fact of that great thing which had to come to fulfill the ambitions aroused in the reflective being by the newly acquired consciousness that he was at one with and responsible to an evolutionary All?” <sup id="cite_ref-18" class="reference">[19]</sup>Phenomenon of Man

 

You see, 'service mood'. The kingdom is meek and humble...it is Vraj. We are particle servants, and have been bestowed the highest grace, profound responsibility...the seal of God. The Holy Name (full of all potencies)! Love of God being free of all material hankering and goals....satisfied with prasadam and glorification of the Beloved. Any other religion that has mixed endeavour is only partly truth...still full of desires of the seperated ego. It has not yet reached culmination.

 

 

His work was one of the originals in this modern line of thought (Pierre Teilhard de Chardin - the Phenomenon of Man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Phenomenon_of_Man)

 

Such theory was before the study of para-psychology and transpersonal took foothold. These sciences are still held with skepticism in some scientific circles.

 

In regards to this evolution in discussion, mankind is not ready for full use of brain potential. Mechanistic man has made devices which can destroy the whole planet, what to say if irresponsible man understood the subtle science. Even preliminary studies of the subtle science where hidden in schools of esoterica, for fear of misuse.

 

The evolving man will only be ready for full evolution when its need for control is relinquished. Constitutionally the seed form and the full bloom is a particle servant. When that is realized by the mass, then the higher intelligence will be fully realized by the parts.

 

Then words like 'para' will be integral to the living entities. Such would not be revealed to the not yet unfolded being, on a grand scale, otherwise seperated man would destroy itself. This is the wisdom of divine. In due course each will actualize and become an integral part.

 

Until fullness many will not realize those who walk the earth with evolved integration. A time is set that only the divine knows for each.

 

This is my understanding of future destiny. by bija

 

Please read Vedanta Sutra for the full truth of higher intelligence and what real personalism is. Jaya Vaishnava Thakura!!

y.s. bija.

[bija]

 

Thus by simply chanting the mantra one can convert the world in to the respective heaven. It is simply done by the work of transmuting the awareness by transmuting the neurogram, and neurograms are the aspects of mantras. posted by Ravindran

Yes. This is where we can choose and have free will (in regards to the discussion of this thread). Upon leaving this present material body we will attain...simply because we cultivated our desire, while in this realm on earth. This is backed by Vedanta-sutra. Infact we are bound in this material sphere of gross enjoyment presently for that very reason - we can attain heavenly pleasure, hellish existence, bound by the material laws that govern - or, we can transcend in true constitution.

 

This is the potency of spirit soul...and the wonder of the highest intelligence, which is to be worshipped. Once man realizes that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is beyond man's small speculative mind (the Supreme Being which is non-sectarian non-dual truth)...we then may begin to find where real harmony lies. We may even find a way for world peace. Where religion no longer divides. We will see the face of God, fulfillment of pure desire.

 

How will that be possible? Because we will realize what real worship (bhajan) is. And that real ananda is where there is eternally two. That we are servants of that Supreme Ananda. Vaishnava ki jaya!

 

We are most fortunate to have the voice of Vyasadeva - click here, at hand.

 

 

 

 

http://causelessmercy.com/Bg4.htm

Bg4.9

TEXT 9

janma karma ca me divyam

evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma

naiti mām eti so ’rjuna

janma—birth; karma—work; ca—also; me—of Mine; divyam—transcendental; evam—like this; yaḥ—anyone who; vetti—knows; tattvataḥ—in reality; tyaktvā—leaving aside; deham—this body; punaḥ—again; janma—birth; na—never; eti—does attain; mām—unto Me; eti—does attain; saḥ—he; arjuna—O Arjuna.

TRANSLATION

One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.

PURPORT

The Lord’s descent from His transcendental abode is already explained in the 6th verse (Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all sentient beings, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form). One who can understand the truth of the appearance of the Personality of Godhead is already liberated from material bondage, and therefore he returns to the kingdom of God immediately after quitting this present material body. Such liberation of the living entity from material bondage is not at all easy. The impersonalists and the yogīs attain liberation only after much trouble and many, many births. Even then, the liberation they achieve—merging into the impersonal brahmajyoti of the Lord—is only partial, and there is the risk of returning again to this material world. But the devotee, simply by understanding the transcendental nature of the body and activities of the Lord, attains the abode of the Lord after ending this body and does not run the risk of returning again to this material world. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated that the Lord has many, many forms and incarnations: advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam. Although there are many transcendental forms of the Lord, they are still one and the same Supreme Personality of Godhead. One has to understand this fact with conviction, although it is incomprehensible to mundane scholars and empiric philosophers. As stated in the Vedas:

eko devo nitya-līlānurakto bhakta-vyāpī hṛdy antarātmā.

 

 

“The one Supreme Personality of Godhead is eternally engaged in many, many transcendental forms in relationships with His unalloyed devotees.” This Vedic version is confirmed in this verse of the Gītā personally by the Lord. He who accepts this truth on the strength of the authority of the Vedas and of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and who does not waste time in philosophical speculations attains the highest perfectional stage of liberation. Simply by accepting this truth on faith, one can, without a doubt, attain liberation. The Vedic version, “tattvamasi,” is actually applied in this case. Anyone who understands Lord Kṛṣṇa to be the Supreme, or who says unto the Lord, “You are the same Supreme Brahman, the Personality of Godhead” is certainly liberated instantly, and consequently his entrance into the transcendental association of the Lord is guaranteed. In other words, such a faithful devotee of the Lord attains perfection, and this is confirmed by the following Vedic assertion:

tam eva viditvātimṛtyumeti nānyaḥ panthā vidyate ayanāya.

 

 

One can attain the perfect stage of liberation from birth and death simply by knowing the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is no alternative because anyone who does not understand Lord Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead is surely in the mode of ignorance. Consequently he will not attain salvation, simply, so to speak, by licking the outer surface of the bottle of honey, or by interpreting the Bhagavad-gītā according to mundane scholarship. Such empiric philosophers may assume very important roles in the material world, but they are not necessarily eligible for liberation. Such puffed up mundane scholars have to wait for the causeless mercy of the devotee of the Lord. One should therefore cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness with faith and knowledge, and in this way attain perfection.

 

 

Please understand the Inconceivable Absolute Truth is One. Accepting the reality of Krsna is in no way sectarian or biased. Such a mood of surrender is congruent with the Absolute (and with Vedanta).

 

Devotees who argue with sectarian bias, are neophyte. They have not yet fully realized the true nature of what they are.

The Vedic version, “tattvamasi,” is actually applied in this case.

But they are still glorious because they accept with faith the scripture, which are the words of self-realized souls and incarnations.

 

You are of good intelligence Ravindran and much greater intellect than me. I hope you can see what I am sharing with you and Bart in the last posts here. If we can humble ourselves truth will come from the simplest of people.

 

simply aspiring to be your servant...bija