Is Mukti A Myth?

[bija]

 

 

Dr. Subhash C. Sharma, P.Eng.

(biodata)

 

Subhash Sharma, born in Ansoli (Himachal Pradesh), received the B.Tech (Ag E -1970) from I.I.T. (Kharagpur), M.S. (ME - 1972) from University of Hawaii ( Honolulu ), and Ph.D. (ME - 1978) from University of British Columbia ( Vancouver ).

After completing his engineering education, Dr. Sharma has taught courses to university students in Canada and the Middle East . As a professional engineer (PEO), he has also worked on numerous aerospace, nuclear, robotic, automotive, locomotive and mechanical engineering assignments in Canada and the U.S.A.

Dr. Sharma has also done an extensive study on different religions and philosophies, and he has submitted several articles on the internet dealing with various philosophical, religious and social issues. His essays are also available from the internet under the names lamberdar and Seva.

 

He currently resides in Toronto (Canada). His email address is lamberdar@ and web-links to various internet articles by him include http://www.geocities.com/lamberdar/author.html and http://seva.sulekha.com/blog/posts.htm. <!-- text below generated by server. PLEASE REMOVE -->

[bija]

 

Nevertheless, enlightened devotees appear to be unable to clearly convey or formalize this knowledge. by bart

 

Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami

Born: 1496 (Christian Era)

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta

http://causelessmercy.com/Adi.htm

http://causelessmercy.com/Madhya.htm

http://causelessmercy.com/Antya.htm

With all due respect to Dr. Sharma, who has the credentials of a very learned man, the book Sri Caitanya Caritamrta with commentary by HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada harmonizes all aspects that Dr. Sharma has bought into question.

 

y.s. bija

[Bart Happel]

 

The best proof is to begin chanting the Lord's Name...then you will have no doubts.

 

Well, maybe you’re right about that. I ‘m actually trying to do that. I just wonder whether scientific knowledge about how everything in the universe must be one interrelated whole, would make it any easier and perhaps more acceptable for people in general to actively serve and become conscious of this universal whole (God). At least such knowledge seems to have the potential to change the way people view their world (in a positive way).

 

I like to think of consciousness as a stroboscopic light that shines on a fast turning wheel. We may first see the wheel as just a spinning blur. However, at specific stroboscopic frequencies, the wheel appears not to turn and we can discern every single detail of the wheel. Maybe, analogously, the process of mukti can be understood as tuning our consciousness to specific dynamical aspects of the universal whole.

 

Kind regards, Bart

[bija]

That is very interesting Bart.

[bija]

Thx for sharing Bart. Actually there is a great need for speakers of truth to relate to all types of people. What I would love to see a scientific mind do, is to gain knowledge through buddhi-yoga, a true enlightenment, and then share that knowledge in a pragmatic way with the 21st century mind. This would be a great service to God and humanity.

 

I am a personalist Bart, so my joy would be complete if I saw one deeply realized devotee apply great buddhi to share the science of personalism. This Krsna consciousness is a real mystery to many, but I will confidently say, if practiced and realized and shared, it is a great boon for humanity.

 

We can apply all our gifts in service to the Lord.

 

Buddhi presses down, rather than the mundane intellect pressing up. Buddhi is the higher intelligence of this greater organism:

 

 

BG Chapter 10 Text 10

tesam satata-yuktanam

bhajatam priti-purvakam

dadami buddhi-yogam tam

yena mam upayanti te

 

To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.

Here is an article I wrote sometime back after reading some writings of the great scholar Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, who was a personalist, priest, and scientist. He aided in discovering Peking Man, and his most influential book was 'The phenomenon of Man' which was banned by the Church for many years.

 

I am not an intellectual Bart, I left school when I was 16. I am a spiritualist. Much has changed since I wrote this article a short few months back. Something happened inside of me, something yearning for complete simplicity in devotion, something yearning to accept Krsna as He is. Anyhow here is the article, probably produced from my abstract mind, which I wish to be released from oneday, into a more spiritual form. Until that time we apply all our gifts and given nature in service to God. Pranams and blessings to you! In my opinion you are a qualified vaisnava (humble servant of God). That is evident in your posts.

 

I thought this article may have some appeal in a small way to development of Krsna consciousness. A piece of my mind and personality (even if shadow).

 

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A spiritualist definition of evolution and intelligent design

by bija.

(Please forgive the forwardness of which I begin this short essay - my motivation being compassion.)

I have a type of siddhi (psychic phenomenon) and see subtle aspects of material energy and mind. An extension of the subtle body. New age people since the sixties in the west have called it Aura – which does great injustice to the phenomenon. Modern science would call it ‘synesthesia’ which is also a limiting analysis in some ways. Neglecting the spiritual aspect (study of synesthesia is in early stages presently). It is a very subjective experience of subtle mind/body that also has a super-subjective intuition.

Here is an example of what my mind sees. A friend had her first baby last year. I saw the child just after birth…the babies extended subtle body (aura) - prana was pristine innocence and simplicity. About as close to the most perfect reflection as I have seen with intuitive eyes of mind, in this material world, of spirit/soul or pure mind. I have seen similar in some fine adults too...but matured. This vision opens up a whole new scope of living – which I cannot begin to discuss in this short article. Maybe at a later date. Rather I would wish to ever so minutely, touch on the nature of mind and evolution - its potential. And the relevance of this experiential encounter, and how it effects my own spiritual growth, and also a small attempt at dialogue with science. Especially the field of transpersonal psychology, para-psychology, and minutely quantum field research.

I would aspire for such beauty and simplicity that I saw in that small babe, as a vaisnava aspiring purity. This is my realization from the words of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura regarding the Vaisnava. Such beauty in nature is surely proof and...a painting of God’s immanence in creation. The pure hearted devotee (vaisnava) has a pure mind like the babe, but fully aware - even to God consciousness. A spiritual mind.

 

Quote:

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The character of a Vaisnava is sinless and no part of his character is fit for hiding. Simplicity is the life of a Vaisnava. He always teaches others by setting his own examples. Unless his character is pure, he is not fit to be called a Vaisnava.(Sajjana-tosanl 5/10) by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

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Now I would like to elaborate here, why I have chosen to discuss such things, in the opening of this essay. Please bare with me. And also I would like to touch on how a developed spiritual human being can understand the inadequacy of Darwanism, the future potential of Intelligent design, and the relation of all this to Bhakti Yoga toward the Supreme Personality – the Summum Bonum (as decribed in the Bhagavatam). Please forgive my liberalism which can go a little abstract from mainstream Gaudiya teachings. I allow this liberalism because I am talking to the scientific community in terminology. Spiritual life is a gradual evolution of consciousness.

 

Maybe I am foolish to admit such a thing as a psychic gift (siddhi). But I will attempt to explain how this has impacted my spiritual journey as a bhakti yogin, and as a developing conscious human (and spirit) encased in a subtle body. And how a Krsna conscious devotee (and spiritualist) can share his faith and awakening in a somewhat scientific way. Even though such discourse may not be understood by many scientists and religionists presently, and may not be sufficient in proof.

I believe a day will come that people will freely talk about such things as the subtle phenomena of experience (without being considered crackpot or attention seekers). And like a candle lit from one candle to another this human gift will pass from one to another - and be utilized for human growth, not for selfish gain. We only need to acknowledge it and not be ashamed (and leave behind esotericism). Infact as ‘evolution’ of consciousness develops on earth we have great potential for healing and love...and with the world crisis of abuse of natural resource (and each other) etc...the organism will awaken to save itself. This ability to self heal is built into both the micro and macro organism. This is the foundation of trans-personal psychology.

 

One intelligent new age man ( a qualified psychologist – James Redfield) wrote the book 'Celestine Prophecies' and made a lot of money. It is a wishy washy book in many ways – very new age. But he had a very good realization. And he touches on my own experiential encounter of mind. He says this in his book, I will para-phrase: On a subtle energetic field people dominate each other or nature....or at least try to. As the human becomes aware of its minds potential...it can be released from its delusion of being the controller of all it surveys. And instead awaken to deep sensitivity and full humanity. A cultivation of a gradual spiritual self. Does this sound familiar?

 

Humane is a beautiful word. And until we awaken to the wonderful truth of 'one organism' or ‘the reality of Krsna’ of which we are a part, and its inter-action (even if this world is just shadow of a spiritual world), we may never be humane as a species. Man is not an animal as such, because of this quality of humanity, that can be exercised to a great degree. Beyond sect, beyond nation, beyond family...universal potential!

 

It is very simple to see who has developed humane sensitivity (and has began to awaken to the spiritual dimension) and who has not. A religionist with little humanity is a fanatic...a human without spirituality is potentially selfish and a miser.

 

Christ called us to be meek...and Lord Caitanya called us to be humble. Both said a great gift awaits such a person. Rather than use siddhis (psychic ability or awareness) to make money, hypnotise people, or other dominating gross activities etc (as many in India and around the world have done)...we should utilize our awakening being for awakening of human love and healing of the world. Which culminates in love of God. The pinnacle – which is the message of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. A golden age some may say is coming…some of us can see its immanence already. Animals live with abilities (in accord with nature)...if humans abuse their natural gifts of nature, mind and body, they are less than animal. Siddhi serves a purpose (rather than a stumbling block for the ego)...a step toward the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placetype w:st="on">kingdom</st1:placetype> of <st1:placename w:st="on">God</st1:placename></st1:place>. A stepping stone that need not be a hindrance, but gradually integrated.

 

My spirituality is bhakti…my humanity is knowing and moving toward Spirit. My humanity is a part of my God conscious experience while encased in this body. An Immanent God as well as Transcendent God is what I feel is truth. For me this is full integration as a human being and as a Krsna conscious spirit soul. And this cannot be boxed into a stereo-type.

“humane: marked or motivated by concern with the alleviation of suffering.”

The preacher of Krsna consciousness must discover novel ways and means to convince the scientific world, the new age spiritualists, and the atheistic society of the relevance of an Intelligent design. The only way to scientifically experience that reality of God, is to experience it! Not by mundane speculation, but by realized knowledge of the self.

I feel if we deny the 'physical' and its potential to be utilized in spiritual practice, we disadvantage ourselves as spiritualists. Physical is not false, it is simply temporary and prone to change. And it is not for self-gratification. A harmonization of body, mind, and spirit is possible, without being a materialist. In a sense this harmonization could be called realization. It is definitely application in Krsna consciousness.

 

My hope is that religion and its purer forms may follow the course of human evolution (and the Immanent God)...and not remain simply in books of a past time in denial of modernity. But intelligently find terminologies to relate to the mechanistic scientific society. Even if that means using terms and words of the 21^st century scientific community that appears to be slowly moving toward spirit. Remaining in book terminologies of a past era (which is not wrong), to teach modern atheistic people can stifle potential of convergence, and increase divergence. It can divide further the pure spiritualist and the pure materialist. There is enough evidence of this amongst fundamentalist religious fanatics and fundamentalist materialists caught up in inadequate theories such as Darwanism and destructive religious ideology. The outcome of these opposing groups is definately not harmony and spirituality, which has been the mission of representatives of God. No wonder those who have not awakened to the reality of God are suspicious of religion and its men, and confused by the limited dry vision of the mechanistic scientists.

Unfortunately there may be many obstacles to this pragmatic Krsna conscious vision and preaching, some of that opposition from the very structures, temples, mosques, and churches, which by nature were founded to bring about the actualization of the human. And a spiritual world-wide society.

 

One example of this is the religionists insistence that evolution is heresy. When infact such religionists do not have enough good sense, due to bias, to realize that Darwin’s model of evolution was a preliminary model and speculation, with many flaws, due to lack of scientific apparatus and observation (when in fact 21st century science is a totally different ball game in some cases – the quantum world). And this is also due to their inherent nature to fear all knowledge which does not conform to their belief structure. When infact if doors were open their ideology could have profound impact, if it was not limited by themselves. The ideology should not be limited – but expressed in such a way that this suffering world can be emancipated. 'That is humane preaching, and compassionate'.

 

 

[bija]

 

Real evolution of consciousness (of the human organism – the bound spirit soul) can only be known by direct experience (in my opinion)...and this movement of spirit/soul is in no way opposed to the reality of God (infact it supports the reality of God). It is scientific religion aimed toward the atheistic community and scientists. The fear of heresy becomes a fear, when truth only exists in the past. Religion needs desperately to mature in this regard (and religious structures such as many religious institutions need to apply intelligence if they are to be the saviours of the world as they prophecy).<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p> </u1:p>

The fundamentalist Hare Krsna and other religionists will point out the heresy of evolution, by the simple fact that the vedic cosmos is degrading (kali yuga). And position, how can an evolution be at all possible? They will say...evolution...non-sense! Degradation!!!<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p> </u1:p>

We Vaisnavas need to re-term the word evolution.

 

A simple reply to this argument of the fundamentalist, is to realize that all things in nature are a picture, or at least point to the reality of God. Just as a human being begins life as a child...the human then matures if fortunate into a spiritual humane/spirit entity. And as old age and death approaches, such a spiritual person experiences the light of grace, and beatitude of humanity, even with the presence of disease and death. Infact for the spiritualist, death is life.

 

This is the redefinition of the term evolution that I envision, even in a macro-scale (of the universe), not just an individual phenomenon. I understand such phenomenon as a golden age, even within the age of degradation (kali). To use a religious terminology used by many Hare Krsna people.<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p> </u1:p>

The eminence of personality and personalism

 

 

<hr size="1" width="100%" align="center" color="white" noshade="noshade">

 

Here is a quote from the introduction of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's book 'The Phenomenon of Man' by Julian Huxley 1958. <st1:place u4:st="on"><st1:city u4:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Pierre</st1:place></st1:city></st1:city></st1:place> was a Jesuit priest who was also a scientist, he aided in the discovery of Peking Man skull. He attempted to reconcile evolution with his faith as a spiritualist and personalist.

 

This book is a study of the potentiality of man as a 'person of spirit'. It may be an apparent unlikely source to support Krsna consciousness but in my opinion very helpful. The ultimate beautitude for the spirit soul, according to the Srimad Bhagavatam and the Gaudiya teachers, is existence in a realm of conscious awareness, permeated by pure devotion to a loving center – the Supreme Person. In my understanding this 'personal realm and reality' is the destiny of creation. And is Goloka Vrindavan and the Vaikuntha spoken of by the ancient sages.

 

 

 

<u1:p> Quote:

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"...In any case the concept of a hyperpersonal mode of organization sprang from Pierre Teilhard's conviction of the supreme importance of personality. A developed human being, as he rightly pointed out, is not merely a highly individualized individual. He has crossed the threshold of self-conscious to a new mode of thought, and as a result has achieved some degree of conscious integration - integration of the self with the outer world of men and nature, integration of the seperate elements of the self with each other. He is a person, and organism which has transcended individuality in personality. This attainment of personality was an essential element in man's past and present evolutionary success: accordingly its fuller achievment must be an essential aim for his evolutionary future.

This belief in the pre-eminent importance of the personality in the scheme of things was for him (a jesuit priest) a matter of faith, but of faith supported by rational inquiry and scientific knowledge....He realized that the appearance of human personality was the culmination of two major evolutionary trends - the trend towards more extreme individuation, and that towards more extensive interrelation and co-operation: persons are individuals who transcend their merely organic individuality in conscious participation'. From the introduction to the book ‘phenomenon of man’ by Pierre Tielhard de Chardin written by Julian Huxley 1958

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In regards to evolution of the mind and its psychic dimension...

<u1:p> </u1:p>

To bring this essay to a fold, I would like to begin where I started, by quoting myself.<u1:p></u1:p>

 

 

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<u1:p> Quote:

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The motivating choice to share is part of our nature - humaneness. We can base our decision to speak about the nature of God, and humanity (mind body) by such a choice of compassion. Then all will be assisted by grace - for our own good as a whole.

 

Drawing back to the beginning of my point in the first few paragraphs of this essay, and my own psychic/spiritual unfoldment. And the ability of a fully developing human mind (and eventual awareness of its potential - in my case a visualization of such based on love, not on the false assumption of ourselves as controller – each person ofcourse has their own unique encounter of mind, body, and spirit)...in relation to spiritual cultivation and application of this human gift. And the great potential of this evolving conscious awareness of ourselves and the environment we live in, by God's great mercy and design...and the potential activation of a global and universal spiritual (personal) consciousness. The destiny of existence. From a subjective mind to the realm of Super-subjective - the realm of service and love. Spiritual evolution.

 

 

 

<u1:p> Quote:

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'...Pierre...extrapolating from the past into the future, envisaged the process of human convergence as tending to a final state* (I call this final state Vaikuntha keeping with tradition I study and practice), which he called the Omega point, as opposed to the Alpha of elementary material particles and their energies. If I understand him aright, he considers that two factors are co-operating to promote this further complexification of the noosphere (the atmosphere of mind). One is the increase of knowledge about the universe at large, from the galaxies and stars to human societies and individuals. The other is the increase of psycho-social pressure on the surface of our planet. The result of the one is that the noosphere incorporates ever more facets of the cosmos, including the facts of its general direction and its trends in time, so as to become more truly a microcosm...'

*Presumably, in designating this state as Omega, he believed that it was a truly final condition. It might have been better to think of it merely as a novel state or mode of organization, beyond which the human imagination cannot at present pierce, though perhaps the strange facts of extra-sensory perception unearthed by the infant science of parapsychology may give us a clue as to a possible more ultimate state. (Parapsychology and transpersonal psychology has developed since its fledgling days in 1958.)

*from the introduction to the above book Phenomenon of Man by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin 1958

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Such an unfolding of human awareness and potentiality, in my opinion points toward the truth of the Personalistic View of the Ancient Veda, and of its relevance for todays world. That each entity can awaken to a full Super-subjective encounter - Personalism. Especially its central focus on bhakti (devotion) culminating in harmonious love of God. One might say, such encounters within our own being are pointers to our fulfillment (the omega point)...Krsna consciousness (and existence in that land of beauty and charm). Such bhakti, with full consciousness of being and humanity...may just be the key to a new world and expanded conscious living. Beyond the bounds of religion and current science. What <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Pierre</st1:place></st1:city> calls the Omega. Infact in this age of turmoil, it is a necessity for humanities future well being - this being the great need of spreading Krsna consciousness far and wide. That is true compassion and humanitarian aid work.<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p> </u1:p>

The intelligent design theorists may infact come to the conclusion that there is a God, simply by the encounter of their own spiritual awakening - discovery of their full self - as the scientist Pierre Teilhard de Chardin has pointed to all those years ago. Which they will then scientifically describe. The vaisnava who is brave enough to speak on their terms, may have some insights to share with them, from his/her own encounter of gradual awakening. Even this foolsih attempt I have undertaken on an internet forum.<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p> </u1:p>

There are many scientific approaches in this 21^st century that acknowledge the possibility of God, that also deal in the area of mind. Transpersonal science and psychology and para-psychology have come leaps and bounds since the discoveries of quantum physics. Dare we be brave enough to speak out our small realizations (as spiritualists)…to the materialists. Or shall we be in fear of being called eccentrics or crackpots or fools by them. Or being called heretics by the fundamentalist religionists, when we are simply attempting to serve Guru and Gauranga, and the great souls who tread the path before us. Being motivated by compassion.<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p> </u1:p>

Your servant in service to Gurudeva…bija.

</u1:p></u1:p></u1:p>

[Bart Happel]

Thnx Bija

[bija]

 

Quote:

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The best proof is to begin chanting the Lord's Name...then you will have no doubts.

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Well, maybe you’re right about that. I ‘m actually trying to do that. posted by bart

 

http://causelessmercy.com/Adi8.1.htmCaitanya Caritamrta Adi Lila

 

TEXT 25

tad aśma-sāraṁ hṛdayaṁ batedaṁ

yad gṛhyamāṇair hari-nāmadheyaiḥ

na vikriyetātha yadā vikāro

netre jalaṁ gātra-ruheṣu harṣaḥ

TRANSLATION

“If one’s heart does not change, tears do not flow from his eyes, his body does not shiver, and his bodily hairs do not stand on end as he chants the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, it should be understood that his heart is as hard as iron. This is due to his offenses at the lotus feet of the Lord’s holy name.”

PURPORT

Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, commenting on this verse, which is a quotation from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (2.3.24), remarks that sometimes a mahā-bhāgavata, or very advanced devotee, does not manifest such transcendental symptoms as tears in the eyes, whereas sometimes a kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, a neophyte devotee, displays them artificially. This does not mean, however, that the neophyte is more advanced than the mahā-bhāgavata devotee. The test of the real change of heart that takes place when one chants the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra is that one becomes detached from material enjoyment. This is the real change. Bhaktir pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra ca (Bhāg. 11.2.42). If one is actually advancing in spiritual life, he must become very much detached from material enjoyment. If it is sometimes found that a kaniṣṭha-adhikārī (neophyte devotee) shows artificial tears in his eyes while chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra but is still completely attached to material things, his heart has not really changed. The change must be manifested in terms of one’s real activities.

TEXT 26

‘eka’ kṛṣṇa-nāme kare sarva-pāpa nāśa

premera kāraṇa bhakti karena prakāśa

TRANSLATION

Simply chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra without offenses vanquishes all sinful activities. Thus pure devotional service, which is the cause of love of Godhead, becomes manifest.

PURPORT

One cannot be situated in the devotional service of the Lord unless one is free from sinful life. This is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā (7.28):

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmanām

te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ

“Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life and whose sinful actions are completely eradicated are freed from the duality of delusion, and they engage themselves in My service with determination.” A person who is already cleansed of all tinges of sinful life engages without deviation or duality of purpose in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. In this age, although people are greatly sinful, simply chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra can relieve them from the reactions of their sins. Eka kṛṣṇa-nāme: only by chanting Kṛṣṇa’s name is this possible. This is confirmed in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (12.3.51): kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has also taught us this. While passing on the road, He used to chant:

kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa he

kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa he

kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa rakṣa mām

kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa pāhi mām

rāma rāghava rāma rāghava rāma rāghava rakṣa mām

kṛṣṇa keśava kṛṣṇa keśava kṛṣṇa keśava pāhi mām

 

If one always chants the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, gradually one is freed from all reactions of sinful life, provided he chants offenselessly and does not commit more sinful activities on the strength of chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. In this way one is purified, and his devotional service causes the arousal of his dormant love of God. If one simply chants the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and does not commit sinful activities and offenses, one’s life is purified, and thus one comes to the fifth stage of perfection, or engagement in the loving service of the Lord (premā pum-artho mahān).

TEXT 27

premera udaye haya premera vikāra

sveda-kampa-pulakādi gadgadāśrudhāra

TRANSLATION

When one’s transcendental loving service to the Lord is actually awakened, it generates transformations in the body such as perspiration, trembling, throbbing of the heart, faltering of the voice and tears in the eyes.

PURPORT

These bodily transformations are automatically manifested when one is actually situated in love of Godhead. One should not artificially imitate them. Our disease is desire for that which is material; even while advancing in spiritual life, we want material acclaim. One must be freed from this disease. Pure devotion must be anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11], without desire for anything material. Advanced devotees manifest many bodily transformations, which are symptoms of ecstasy, but one should not imitate them to achieve cheap adoration from the public. When one actually attains the advanced stage, the ecstatic symptoms will appear automatically; one does not need to imitate them.

TEXT 28

anāyāse bhava-kṣaya, kṛṣṇera sevana

eka kṛṣṇa-nāmera phale pāi eta dhana

TRANSLATION

As a result of chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, one makes such great advancement in spiritual life that simultaneously his material existence terminates and he receives love of Godhead. The holy name of Kṛṣṇa is so powerful that by chanting even one name, one very easily achieves these transcendental riches.

TEXTS 29–30

hena kṛṣṇa-nāma yadi laya bahu-bāra

tabu yadi prema nahe, nahe aśrudhāra

tabe jāni, aparādha tāhāte pracura

kṛṣṇa-nāma-bīja tāhe nā kare aṅkura

TRANSLATION

If one chants the exalted holy name of the Lord again and again and yet his love for the Supreme Lord does not develop and tears do not appear in his eyes, it is evident that because of his offenses in chanting, the seed of the holy name of Kṛṣṇa does not sprout.

PURPORT

If one chants the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra offensively, one does not achieve the desired result. Therefore one should carefully avoid the offenses, which have already been described in connection with verse 24.

TEXT 31

caitanya-nityānande nāhi esaba vicāra

nāma laite prema dena, vahe aśrudhāra

TRANSLATION

But if one only chants, with some slight faith, the holy names of Lord Caitanya and Nityānanda, very quickly he is cleansed of all offenses. Thus as soon as he chants the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, he feels the ecstasy of love for God.

PURPORT

Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura remarks in this connection that if one takes shelter of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Nityānanda, follows Their instructions to become more tolerant than the tree and humbler than the grass, and in this way chants the holy name of the Lord, very soon he achieves the platform of transcendental loving service to the Lord, and tears appear in his eyes. There are offenses to be considered in chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, but there are no such considerations in chanting the names of Gaura-Nityānanda. Therefore, if one chants the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra but his life is still full of sinful activities, it will be very difficult for him to achieve the platform of loving service to the Lord. But if in spite of being an offender one chants the holy names of Gaura-Nityānanda, he is very quickly freed from the reactions to his offenses. Therefore, one should first approach Lord Caitanya and Nityānanda, or worship Guru-Gaurāṅga, and then come to the stage of worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, our students are first advised to worship Guru-Gaurāṅga, and then, when they are somewhat advanced, the Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deity is installed, and they are engaged in the worship of the Lord.

One should first take shelter of Gaura-Nityānanda in order to reach, ultimately, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings in this connection:

gaurāṅga balite ha’be pulaka śarīra

hari hari balite nayane ba’be nīra

āra kabe nitāi-cāṅdera karuṇā karibe

saṁsāra-vāsanā mora kabe tuccha habe

viṣaya chāḍiyā kabe śuddha habe mana

kabe hāma heraba śrī-vṛndāvana

In the beginning one should very regularly chant Śrī Gaurasundara’s holy name and then chant the holy name of Lord Nityānanda. Thus one’s heart will be cleansed of impure desires for material enjoyment. Then one can approach Vṛndāvana-dhāma to worship Lord Kṛṣṇa. Unless one is favored by Lord Caitanya and Nityānanda, there is no need to go to Vṛndāvana, for unless one’s mind is purified, he cannot see Vṛndāvana, even if he goes there. Actually going to Vṛndāvana involves taking shelter of the six Gosvāmīs by reading the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, Vidagdha-mādhava, Lalita-mādhava and the other books that they have given. In this way one can understand the transcendental loving affairs between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Kabe hāma bujhaba se yugala-pirīti. The conjugal love between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa is not an ordinary human affair; it is fully transcendental. In order to understand Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, worship Them and engage in Their loving service, one must be guided by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Nityānanda Prabhu and the six Gosvāmīs, Lord Caitanya’s direct disciples.

For an ordinary man, worship of Śrī Caitanya and Nityānanda Prabhu or the Pañca-tattva is easier than worship of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Unless one is very fortunate, he should not be induced to worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa directly. A neophyte student who is not sufficiently educated or enlightened should not indulge in the worship of Śrī Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa or the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Even if he does so, he cannot get the desired result. One should therefore chant the names of Nitāi-Gaura and worship Them without false prestige. Since everyone within this material world is more or less influenced by sinful activities, in the beginning it is essential that one take to the worship of Guru-Gaurāṅga and ask their favor, for thus despite all his disqualifications one will very soon become qualified to worship the Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa vigraha.

It should be noted in this connection that the holy names of Lord Kṛṣṇa and Gaurasundara are both identical with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore one should not consider one name to be more potent than the other. Considering the position of the people of this age, however, the chanting of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s name is more essential than the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra because Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is the most magnanimous incarnation and His mercy is very easily achieved. Therefore one must first take shelter of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu by chanting śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda. By serving Gaura-Nityānanda one is freed from the entanglements of material existence and thus becomes qualified to worship the Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deity.

 

[bija]

 

Shri Chaitanya Charitamrita Adi 8.31:

chaitanya-nityanande nahi esaba vicara,

nama laite prema dena, vahe asrudhara

"But if one only chants, with some slight faith, the holy names of Gauranga and Nityananda, very quickly he is cleansed of all offenses. Since in the chanting of the names of Nityananda and Gauranga there is no consideration of offenses, one will very quickly come to the stage of love of God, simply by chanting Their names and tears of pure love for Krishna will flow from the eyes."

ANUBHASHYA PURPORT BY SHRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKURA PRABHUPADA:

Bengali: krishna-nama aparadhera vicara karena, gaura-nityanandera name aparadhera vicara nai. aparadhi krishna-nama grahana karilei kakhanei nama-phala (krishna-prema) labha karena na. aparadhi thaka-kaleu gaura-nityanandera nama grahanakari nama karite karite aparadha mocanante nama-phala labha karena. ihara vicara o siddhanta ei je-gaura-nityanandera nikata krishna-vimukha sadhaka krishna unmukha haibara janya gamana karena. ara sadhanasiddha, anarthamukta krishnanmukera uccarya krishna-nama anarthayukta avasthaya kakhanei phala (krishna-prema)pradana kare na. gaura-nityananda anarthayukta jivera sevya-vastu haoyaya tahadera seva jivera krishnaseva apeksa adhiktara prayojaniya. sadhaka siksara apraptite siddhabhimane krishna-namera seva karite udyata haile tahara anarthaei asiya upasthita haya; kintu nitai-gaurera bhajane siddhabhimanera chalana na rakhiya anarthayukta avasthayeo jagadguru siksaka dvayera nikata upasthita haile tahara tahadigake anarthamukta karaiya tanhadigera svayam-rupa o svayam-prakasa svarupa uplabdhi karana. tahatei jivera svarupa-jnanera udaya haya.

Translation: "The Hare Krishna Mahamantra considers the offenses whereas the Holy Names of Nityananda and Gauranga don't consider offenses. An offensive chanter will never achieve the fruit of chanting (pure love for Krishna) simply by chanting the Hare Krishna Mahamantra."

(Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta continues): "Therefore till the time he is committing offences, He should regularly chant the names of Nityananda and Gauranga which are the grahanakari-nama (most important names to be accepted and chanted) for the sadhaka in the anartha-yukta stage. Due to the repeated chanting (karite karite) of these names of Nityananda and Gauranga, all the offences will be destroyed and he will very quickly achieve the fruit of the chanting, pure love of Krsna."

(Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada continues) "The philosophical principle behind these statements is as follows - The aspirant who is averse to Lord Krishna approaches Lords Nityananda and Gauranga to become attracted to Lord Krishna. The Hare Krishna Mahamantra can only be uttered purely by the sadhaka who is on the perfected stage (sadhana-siddha) and who is free from all anarthas (unwanted things in the heart). If sadhakas full of offenses chant only the Mahamantra, the Mahamantra will never give them love for Krishna.

"Thus Lords Nityananda and Gauranga and Their Holy Names are the most worshipable Lords for the souls who are full of offenses. That is why Their service and the service of Their Names, Abode and Pastimes is more appropriate and beneficial for these unfortunate souls than even the service of Lord Krishna. If the sadhaka without hearing proper instructions, proudly thinks himself to be on the perfected stage and tries to render direct service to the Hare Krishna Mahamantra by chanting it without regularly chanting the Holy Names of Nityananda and Gauranga, then the ten offenses will surely come and bar his progress. On the other hand, if the sadhaka who is full of offenses, gives up his sense of false pride of thinking himself on the perfected stage, and thus approaches the Names of the two Jagadgurus Lords Nityananda and Gauranga, worships Them and accepts Their instructions, Their Pastimes and Their devotees, They will quickly deliver him from all offenses and reward him with the realization of Their own forms (svarupas) of Svayam-Rupa (Lord Gauranga) and Svayam-Prakasa (Lord Nityananda). Then the soul realizes one own constitutional position in relation with the two Lords and thus achieves the supreme perfection."

Bengali: krishna-nama o gaura-nama,-ubhayei namira sahita abhinna. krsnke gaura apeksa laghu va sankirna baliya janile, uhake avidyara karya baliya janite haibe. prakrtapakse jivera prayojana-vicare shri gaura-nityanandera nama grahanera upayogita adhiktara. shri gaura-nityananda udara evam audaryera abhyantare madhura. krsnera udarta-kevala mukta, siddha ashritajana ganera upara; gaura-nityanandera audarya-srote anarthayukta aparadhi jiva bhogamaya aparadhera haste haite mukta haiya gaura-krsnera pada-padma labha karena.

English translation (Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada continues): "The name of Krishna and Gauranga-both are non-different than the named Lord. Those who think that Krishna is any way inferior or limited than Gauranga are in gross ignorance."

The devotees have all set this example, keeping Lord's Nitaai-Gauranga in the forefront, especially in the offensive stage. Offences simply means a heart full of unwanted things. Their Lordships will very quickly purify the heart of unwanted material desires...then one will be able to approach the pure Hare Krsna mahamantra and taste nectar (as per CC 8.31).

[srikanthdk71]

Dear Jeffster,Justin,Bija,Bart just went throught all your posts in the weekend and contemplated on most of your points. To my understanding, everything has a meaning. The following are purely not based on any school of taught and are based on a rationalist thinkers analysis.

 

1. Why Puranas? What is its use?

A. Any Tom, Dick and Harry can understand it. It improves the creativity of any unintelligent person also. The height of a creative mind can be experienced.

 

2. Why Dharma Shastras/Vedas?

A. When you create something, you need time to practice and live in it. Based on the various Varnas(divided on the type of involment they can have in the work they pursue) the agnihotras/Bijaksharis can be practised. It takes a common man to the next level.

 

3. Why Upanishads?

A. Now the common person has gained the level of creation and sustanibility, its time for him to prepare for the laya or Moksha. Upanishads give the person the real insight to prepare him for his last rights gleefully.

 

So, man during his lifetime has experienced Sattva/Rajas/Tamas, Creation/Sustainibility and Destruction in the most profound way. This is what an unknown/rational person would get an idea of the Indian Dharma.

[bija]

It is surely a dharma full of mercy Srikandth. To raise a human being to the next level of awareness is such a gift to the world, and beneficial for all.

 

The sages must have had such broad vision, even beyond universal compassion. You may be able to tell how much I adore these sacred texts. Thank you for your post.

 

 

So, man during his lifetime has experienced Sattva/Rajas/Tamas, Creation/Sustainibility and Destruction in the most profound way. This is what an unknown/rational person would get an idea of the Indian Dharma. by srikandth

[jeffster]

Hello Srikanth,

I also went through most of the posts over the weekend, but didn't get a chance to review every single one. One thing I have learned from this thread is that there is no need for me to be confrontational, offensive or divisive. We are looking for the unifying principle even if we disagree. We are looking for truth, and ultimately truth is unifying in its very nature.

I initially missed your post # 78, but reviewed it. You ask "Is there not something beyond these Lokas which are sustaining the existence of all these lokas." I found Gita 10:8 which is quite a famous verse:

aham sarvasya prabhavo

mattah sarvam pravartate

iti matva bhajante mam

budha bhava-samanvitah

 

My translation says :

"I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."

 

I was also looking for a reference that refers to Krishna as God of the gods, as this relates to your post # 78, also, but I haven't been able to find it yet. Bija is much more adept at finding the appropriate references. Bija ?

Regards and pranams,

jeffster/AMdas

[bija]

I am not sure Jeffster. This text from the Katha Upanisad comes to mind:

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 7.10

bījaḿ māḿ sarva-bhūtānāḿ

viddhi pārtha sanātanam

buddhir buddhimatām asmi

tejas tejasvinām aham

SYNONYMS

bījam — the seed; mām — Me; sarva-bhūtānām — of all living entities; viddhi — try to understand; pārtha — O son of Pṛthā; sanātanam — original, eternal; buddhiḥ — intelligence; buddhi-matām — of the intelligent; asmi — I am; tejaḥ — prowess; tejasvinām — of the powerful; aham — I am.

TRANSLATION

O son of Pṛthā, know that I am the original seed of all existences, the intelligence of the intelligent, and the prowess of all powerful men.

PURPORT

Bījam means seed; Kṛṣṇa is the seed of everything. There are various living entities, movable and inert. Birds, beasts, men and many other living creatures are moving living entities; trees and plants, however, are inert — they cannot move, but only stand. Every entity is contained within the scope of 8,400,000 species of life; some of them are moving and some of them are inert. In all cases, however, the seed of their life is Kṛṣṇa. As stated in Vedic literature, Brahman, or the Supreme Absolute Truth, is that from which everything is emanating. Kṛṣṇa is Parabrahman, the Supreme Spirit. Brahman is impersonal and Parabrahman is personal. Impersonal Brahman is situated in the personal aspect — that is stated in Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore, originally, Kṛṣṇa is the source of everything. He is the root. As the root of a tree maintains the whole tree, Kṛṣṇa, being the original root of all things, maintains everything in this material manifestation. This is also confirmed in the Vedic literature

(Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13):

nityo nityānāḿ cetanaś cetanānām

eko bahūnāḿ yo vidadhāti kāmān

 

He is the prime eternal among all eternals. He is the supreme living entity of all living entities, and He alone is maintaining all life. One cannot do anything without intelligence, and Kṛṣṇa also says that He is the root of all intelligence. Unless a person is intelligent he cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa.

[srikanthdk71]

 

aham sarvasya prabhavo

mattah sarvam pravartate

iti matva bhajante mam

budha bhava-samanvitah

 

My translation says :

"I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."jeffster/AMdas

 

The advaita translation says,Aham, I, the supreme Brahman called Vasudeva; am the prabhavah, origin; sarvasya, of all, of the whole world; sarvam, everything, the whole world of changes, consisting of continuance, destruction, action and enjoyment of the fruits of action; pravartate, moves on; mattah, owing to Me alone. Matva, realizing; iti, thus; the budhah, wise ones, the knowers of the supreme Reality; bhava-samanvitah, filled with fervour-bhava is the same as bhavana, meaning ardent longing for the supreme Reality; filled (samanvitah) with that, i.e. imbued with that; bhajante, adore; mam, Me.

 

The question remains 'Was Krishna referring to his gross body when he says I?'

[srikanthdk71]

 

The monists in this thread acknowledge form - the cosmic manifestation (universal form). They do not ackowledge a purely transcendental form, which is the secret of secrets.

 

When the dualists in this forum said it has a form eventhough it is said Brahman is achintyam,arupam,ameyam. This is the secret.

 

 

Radhika has gone as far to say that Krsna's form is part of the astral plane - subtle mind only, and that one need to eventually leave that realm behind.

 

Radhika said that Krishna's form or any Loka can be perceived to any Bhakta unless he is in the realm of the astral(astral within the gross/astral without the gross). The causal entity is devoid of emotions(the sense of doership) and the soul has now become the pure conciousness which is allknowing with immense creative power.

 

 

Radhika very clearly places Sri Krsna in the realm of subtle entities, astral entities etc...next we may hear that transcendental sound is mind stuff.

 

She has never placed Sri Krishna in the realm of subtle entities but she has placed the experiencer within me and you and the experience of Sri Krishna as the form we believe in the subtle astral form.

 

 

I challenge where is the proof from sastra of all this speculation ,

 

It is simple. Read Upanishads which speaks about you. Know yourself better. You will know yourself whether it is speculation or truth.

 

 

all the monists and athiests (our dear friends in this thread) applauded as a great treatise on truth? Where is Radhika's knowledge sourced from in the above statements:deal:.

 

First of all how would it be to call all dualists (our dear friends in this thread) as blind believers who look for answers outside them without knowing himself and whenever they are given a breifing as Radhika did, they ask for a source. Again Source:Upanishads. Read all ways(Advaita/Dvaita/GV) and come to a conclusion.

 

And yes Bart...Jeffster is a deeply sincere seeker and very nice person. Making them realise without attachment is necessary for cordial relations.

[srikanthdk71]

"Sages (learned Priests) call one God by many names."

 

[Rigveda 1:164:46]

 

"na tasya pratima asti

"There is no image of Him."

[Yajurveda 32:3]5

 

"shudhama poapvidham"

"He is bodyless and pure."

[Yajurveda 40:8]6

 

"Andhatama pravishanti ye asambhuti mupaste"

"They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements" (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). "They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti."

[Yajurveda 40:9]7

 

Book ten, the final mandala, of the Rig Veda details the beginning of creation:

 

Then, neither the non-Real nor the Real existed.

There was no sky then, nor the heavens beyond it.

What was contained by what, and where, and who sheltered it?

What unfathomable depths, what cosmic ocean, existed then?

 

Then, neither death nor deathlessness existed;

Between day and night there was as yet no distinction.

That ONE by its own power breathlessly breathed.

 

In the beginning, darkness lay wrapped in darkness;

All was one undifferentiated sea.

Then, within that one undifferentiated existence,

Something arose by the heat of concentrated energy.

 

What arose in That in the beginning was Desire,

Which is the primal seed of mind.

The wise, having searched deep within their own hearts,

Have perceived the bond between the Real and the unreal.

 

They (the wise) have stretched the cord of their vision,

And they have perceived what is higher and lower:

The mighty powers are made fertile

By that ONE who is their Source . . .

 

 

That should answer the challenge of Bija and as to who is in darkness.

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Deear one and all ,

 

The oneness as well as the formlessness or the inconceivable form - if you like that wording- are clear in many many places in vedas and upanishads in no uncertain terms.

 

Becides it is also the direct experience of mystics all over the world of different religious cultural and temporal settings. This can be experienced and there by validated by anyone, in principle, if one takes the trouble of following the descipline of yoga, which is one of the six essential parts of veda.

 

After all direct experience is the ultimate source of conviction.

 

Note: By this I am not refuting that god can and does take form. After all god is all there is and hence the universe with all its multitude of forms is god's form only. After all universe came from god. God has assumed all forms and hence I dont disagree with the 'formists'.

 

But I do disagree with that 'formists' who argue that god has only one specific form. All forms in existence is his forms and all conceivable and possible forms that may or maynot exist in other alternate universes are god's forms.

 

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[bija]

Thank you Ravindran. Well said.

 

There are four things that come to mind in this debate that I would like to point out.

 

1/ The vaisnava does not deny the existence of brahman or its transcendental eternal substance. Or brahman realization.

 

2/ The vaisnava accepts Lord's Krsna's form as eternal and purely transcendental.

 

3/ Some monists claim that Lord Krsna's form is made of matter and temporary.

 

4/The vaisnava maintains the mood of servant of God, never claiming the mood of controller.

 

Thus the vaisnava is not in any way condemning the reality of brahman realization, but instead is strongly opposed to those that hold to point 3.

 

Therefore as Jeffster has said, brahman, paramatma, param-brahman (bhagavan) is the full realization accepted by the vaisnava.

[kimfelix]

Jeffster, in verse 15 of Chapter 10 of the Gita, Arjuna praises Krishna as deva-deva jagat-pate, the god of the gods and the lord of the world. Regarding an Advaita translation of 10.8 that renders 'aham' as 'I, the Supreme Brahman called Vasudeva' that is an interpretation not a translation. The translation of aham sarvasya prabhavah is 'I am the origin of everything'. The verse itself makes no reference to Brahman or Vasudeva so it is not a translation.

[Amlesh]

 

Jeffster, in verse 15 of Chapter 10 of the Gita, Arjuna praises Krishna as deva-deva jagat-pate, the god of the gods and the lord of the world. Regarding an Advaita translation of 10.8 that renders 'aham' as 'I, the Supreme Brahman called Vasudeva' that is an interpretation not a translation. The translation of aham sarvasya prabhavah is 'I am the origin of everything'. The verse itself makes no reference to Brahman or Vasudeva so it is not a translation.

 

And it was precisely said, your supremacy has been confirmed by Devala, Narada, Asita.

 

No room for extrapolation.

[Bart Happel]

 

Thank you Ravindran. Well said.

 

There are four things that come to mind in this debate that I would like to point out.

 

1/ The vaisnava does not deny the existence of brahman or its transcendental eternal substance. Or brahman realization.

 

2/ The vaisnava accepts Lord's Krsna's form as eternal and purely transcendental.

 

3/ Some monists claim that Lord Krsna's form is made of matter and temporary.

 

4/The vaisnava maintains the mood of servant of God, never claiming the mood of controller.

 

Thus the vaisnava is not in any way condemning the reality of brahman realization, but instead is strongly opposed to those that hold to point 3.

 

Therefore as Jeffster has said, brahman, paramatma, param-brahman (bhagavan) is the full realization accepted by the vaisnava.

 

Maybe you should (globally) replace the term ‘vaisnava’ by the term ‘model’ or ‘theory’ in this post.

 

And the model, indeed, strongly opposes your point 3. More specifically, a material form cannot be the origin of God (the universal whole) in the model. But God may have many forms that can be consciously perceived by us.

 

Kind regards, Bart

[bija]

 

Maybe you should (globally) replace the term ‘vaisnava’ by the term ‘model’ or ‘theory’ in this post.

 

And the model, indeed, strongly opposes your point 3. More specifically, a material form cannot be the origin of God (the universal whole) in the model. But God may have many forms that can be consciously perceived by us.

 

Kind regards, Bart

The way I see that Bart, to call all things a model or theory is this...that then everything is an object. All things become objects. This is diametrically opposite to subjective encounter with a Super-subjective plane.

 

The object is for gratification. The conscious Being, is alive with consciousness and definately not an object. But surely theory is, an object of study to gratify one's intellect.

 

Ofcourse saying that, I still see outside of my eyes some objective reality, and that is my great misfortune. Only spiritual eyes can see the truth.

 

Global reality will never be attained with object consciousness. Only a please all people science will occur with that, to fill the missing part we all feel...love of the other. That will never satisfy the soul.

 

cyou tommorrow...bye:sleep:

[Bart Happel]

 

The way I see that Bart, to call all things a model or theory is this...that then everything is an object. All things become objects. This is diametrically opposite to subjective encounter with a Super-subjective plane.

 

The object is for gratification. The conscious Being, is alive with consciousness and definately not an object. But surely theory is, an object of study to gratify one's intellect.

 

Ofcourse saying that, I still see outside of my eyes some objective reality, and that is my great misfortune. Only spiritual eyes can see the truth.

 

Global reality will never be attained with object consciousness. Only a please all people science will occur with that, to fill the missing part we all feel...love of the other. That will never satisfy the soul.

 

 

 

No, no Bija! A theory or model is not an object; it is a conscious idea! The formalization of a theory can be viewed as a material object, written down on a piece of paper or published on the internet. But that’s just a material means to convey the idea.

 

Kind regards, Bart

[Justin]

 

The oneness as well as the formlessness or the inconceivable form - if you like that wording- are clear in many many places in vedas and upanishads in no uncertain terms.

Ravindran, but all those verses which non-dualists claim as supporting non-dualism has been refuted by some great Vaishnava saints. The scriptures can never be the authority for the non-dualists since:

 

A. They have rejected about 90% of them as attatvavedaka and taken only those that they "feel" convey oneness. But even those 10% has been refuted in no uncertain terms by Acharyas like Ramanuja and Madhva. Prabhupada uses the 'R' word against the deluded non-dualists.

 

B. The scriptures exist only when they are in ignorance or in ego. It disappears when they 'become/merge/are' God. Whatever they understand from the scriptures is also understood from their ego since is their ego that interprets those scriptures.

 

 

Becides it is also the direct experience of mystics all over the world of different religious cultural and temporal settings. This can be experienced and there by validated by anyone, in principle, if one takes the trouble of following the descipline of yoga, which is one of the six essential parts of veda.

Even today there are some mystics who claim they experienced oneness and God. How can anyone trust them. If they had experienced oneness, they should not have seen others. The moment they start preaching to the public that they are God and ONE with the universe they loose their credibility. After all, who are they preaching to. There is no one else existing other than the person who became God.

 

 

After all direct experience is the ultimate source of conviction.

True. But anyone can claim they had this experience. We cannot trust them until they start proving their power. But the moment they start proving their power to the people they loose their credibiltiy of oneness because they are preaching to someone different from themselves.

 

 

But I do disagree with that 'formists' who argue that god has only one specific form. All forms in existence is his forms and all conceivable and possible forms that may or maynot exist in other alternate universes are god's forms.

Certainly agree with you. I am glad we have something in common

[Bart Happel]

 

... Even today there are some mystics who claim they experienced oneness and God. How can anyone trust them. If they had experienced oneness, they should not have seen others. The moment they start preaching to the public that they are God and ONE with the universe they loose their credibility. After all, who are they preaching to. There is no one else existing other than the person who became God. ...

 

Justin,

 

The term ‘oneness’ can only have meaning in relation to non-oneness or duality. If there was no perceived duality in our cosmic manifestation, the term oneness would not exist in the dictionary. The point is that this duality is only perceptual, it’s an illusion. In reality the universe is one (God).

 

So why would one preach to ‘others’? It may be seen like curing a disease in your body. Your body is one, but personal knowledge of the disease, or curing just a single cell of the body, won’t stop the disease. The medicine must be transported to all cells of the body to cure the disease.

 

Kind regards, Bart