Is Mukti A Myth?

[Bart Happel]

 

... there is no inference or reason to assume all is one. ...

 

I suggest you (re)read this thread: http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/448303-does-free-will-exist.html

 

Kind regards, Bart

[Justin]

 

I think you misread him. He did not categorize dualists as less intelligent.

Please see his post below which HeeHee refers. There are numerous instances where monists say those who perceive differences are at a lower level.

Originally Posted by Ravindran Kesavan

We - all sentient beings - are all one. And seeing this oneness is a spiritual wisdom. Seeing difference is spiritual ignorance.

 

 

He is saying dualism is what is perceived by default and therefore no additional intelligence/effort is necessary in this case. However, in the case of oneness, it is not directly obvious and therefore additional intelligence/effort would be required to understand the concept.

That is not always the case. There are great works by the Acharyas after Sankara who taught dualism and refuted monism.

 

Also as I gave an example in my previous post: it is like saying a flying teapot is not perceived by default and therefore no additional intelligence/effort is necessary in this case.

 

However, in the case of a flying teapot, it is not directly obvious and therefore additional intelligence/effort would be required to understand the concept.

 

 

Like I said earlier, the usage of monism and dualism is incorrect in this context as Dvaita/Vaishnava theology is Monist too.

I have to disagree with you. Mimaansa, nyaya, tattvavAda, VA (to an extent) and a host of other hindu schools are not monistic. But thats another discussion.

 

 

As per Advaita, oneness can only be perceived at Mukti. It cannot be perceived before that, and any intelligent or rational view of oneness is still not the real thing, just like any vision of Vishnu for the bonded individual is just imagined and not real. At this point for everyone here, duality is just as real to Advaitins as it is to everyone else.

There are many cases of people around the world who have no inkling of Advaita and experienced oneness. These have been scientifically recorded as hallucinations or false notion of blissful state.

[Justin]

 

I suggest you (re)read this thread: http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/448303-does-free-will-exist.html

 

Kind regards, Bart

What for? Did you prove anything in that thread?

[Bart Happel]

 

What for? Did you prove anything in that thread?

 

Your only requirement was 'reasonable assumption'; not 'hard proof'.

(You said: "there is no inference or reason to assume all is one.")

[Justin]

 

Your only requirement was 'reasonable assumption'; not 'hard proof'.

(You said: "there is no inference or reason to assume all is one.")

Neither inference nor perception was apparent in that thread You still have not answered my questions about how you reconcile quantum science with One reality. I suggest you re-read my posts.

[Bart Happel]

 

Neither inference nor perception was apparent in that thread You still have not answered my questions about how you reconcile quantum science with One reality. I suggest you re-read my posts.

 

In those terms: quantum physical data = perception; seeing dynamical similarities between quantum physical data and chaos = inference (also via the working theory of quantum mechanics). Read my posts!

 

Kind regards, Bart

[IamNotHeeHee]

I think you misread him. He did not categorize dualists as less intelligent.

I think not. Ravindran mentions very clearly that those who think of differences are spiritually ignorant. In fact monists and many others associate duality with difference. Thats it. Their opinion is only based on what other monists have told them so. If people like Ravindran would read and understand a little bit of Sri Madhva's teachings, his sheer brilliance and handling of the entire spectrum of vedanta is mindblowing. I personally could find inference, perception and scriptures dealt like no other. If people like Ravindran would know what Sri Ramanuja taught, they will know the emotional depth of Bhakti and surrender. If these folks feel the spirit of the Harekrishna's chanting and dancing, they will know what spirituality really is. Monism no doubt may be stimulating particularly when stirred with quantum wierdness, but to say there is no substance in dualistic philosophies is HUGE ignorance of the teachings of those philosophies and is a cop-out to prove the superiority of monism.

[bija]

 

This is the true meaning of the Vedic Notion of 'I am Brahman'. We - all sentient beings - are all one. And seeing this oneness is a spiritual wisdom. Seeing difference is spiritual ignorance. posted by ravindran

 

Monism no doubt may be stimulating particularly when stirred with quantum wierdness, but to say there is no substance in dualistic philosophies is HUGE ignorance of the teachings of those philosophies..... posted by heehee

Good point HeeHee....to say 'seeing difference is spiritual ignorance' is a bit too much. Maybe the only ignorance is not understanding the depth of what we have not yet realized (most of us would be in that conditioned state presently) - maybe we have not realized the depth of personality and what a wonderful gift that is (if we can have correct angle of vision). Why do we need to negate this gift?

 

Possibly Ravindran we each speak from our own realizations, and from the studies that we have undertaken (whether from authorities or inner contemplation)....and if that use of intelligence inhibits a broader spiritual vision in some way, at least then we can humble ourselves and not claim to be absolute authority on such a profound subject matter. Personally I feel we will have attraction to what grants us inner satisfaction. This oneness you speak of is evident...but I feel there is more.

 

 

From the book 'Follow the Angels' by HDG Srila BR Sridhara Dev Goswami.

Subjective Vision

Those in touch with Divinity are all-seeing, all-knowing, subjective. Ignorant people ascribe objective

vision to this higher plane. It is difficult to conceive. If we stand before the Deity, we

should not indulge our eye or any other sense in order to experience the Deity. When we think of

Him as an object of our senses, we are deceived. We should be trained to find the Seer in the

seen. Drastari drsyatvam—try to see the subjective existence.

 

The Deity is subjective existence. We are the object of His sight. He is all-seeing, all-feeling, all-knowing.

The Bhagavatam says that is the proper view. Then we are in a position to view the

Reality; we have to come in touch with Reality. It is all super-subjective. Then we come to live

in the dhama, the holy abode.

 

That is the dhama, the divine area, where one can feel that the whole environment is superior,

made of subjective existence. All should be revered; none are there to serve us, there for our enjoyment.

Everything is to be approached with veneration and regard. We are their servants. The

Lord and His kingdom are venerable, super-subjective. Then we come into contact with Vaikuntha,

the higher entity.

 

The objective entity is all maya, all bhoga. What we see as the object of our enjoyment is illusion

and concoction, maya. When everything is revered, worshiped, and treated with respect, then

we are in Vaikuntha, in Vrndavana. It is mentioned in Caitanya Caritamrta, vaikunthera prthivyadi

sakala cinmaya (C.c. Adi-lila 5.53): everything is made of spiritual stuff and superior to us.

Below there is Maya and above there is Yogamaya, the land of the Lord. We want to get out of

this entanglement, this separate interest. What is superior, we imagine that to be inferior to ourselves

and want to use it for our own purpose and enjoyment. The world of enjoyment is a concocted

one.

 

We should learn to see that everything must be treated with reverence and with serving attitude,

everything. Then we can come in contact with the dhama, the land of the Lord, where every particle

is to be worshiped. Everything holds a superior position. What is really supernatural, we are

treating it as though it is naturally part of the sense experience. No. Just try, bhidyate hrdayagranthis

cidyante sarva-samsayah, ksiyante casya karmani mayi drs e 'khilatmani (Bhag.

11.20.30). Disassociate the ego of separate existence totally from enjoyment. Abolish the tendency

to enjoy, to utilize whatever we find to satisfy our senses. This angle of vision, this maya,

this ego, the center of such experience should be totally abolished. Dissolved. And all doubts

will be cleared when we find ourselves in that plane.

 

When we are free from the clutches of separate interest, then all suspicion and doubt will be cleared.

We shall feel this through direct soul experience, the experience of the inner senses that we

possess. Then there will be no need for all our attempts and efforts; they'll stop. No special endeavor

must be undertaken for our purpose because we have no separate existence. We are particles in

the Infinite and that which is feeding the Infinite will feed us also.

 

We shall find the general interest everywhere. We are not separate, so there is no necessity of

acting for our special interest. We shall see the divine arrangement for everyone, including every

grain of sand. We are one in the whole and the main current is doing everything, so no karma, no

action is necessary on our own behalf.

 

Then it will become very clear that we have our duty in that universal flow, and we are one of

them. We are particles there. Automatically the universal force handles us in such a way. That is

Yogamaya, the Lord's internal potency, not Mahamaya, the controller of the material universe.

That plane is not acted upon by separate interest, but influenced by the general interest of the

whole. We have our movement there, and that is service, not enjoyment.

 

 

To see plurality is natural and that is how all creatures see the world anyway with their gross senses . All creatures see myriads of things- a divided and fractured and pluralistic world. There is no intelligence or wisdom required to see myriads of the things. posted by ravindran

Yes Ravindran that is basic gross vision you express here. We see everything as objects in that vision. But Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja is showing us correct vision as particles of the whole. This is why I disagree with you when you say 'seeing difference is spiritual ignorance'. The above quotes by Srila Sridhara Maharaja are far from ignorance. Infact this is just a snippet and introduction to the 'service world'...realization in that realm can be endless if we choose to move in that flow. That realm is where I would tend to find my fullest satisfaction....to throw out personality because of this perverted illusory world and our experience in it would be a shame IMHO. Maybe we need to simply adjust our vision to understand how difference can remain - as a gift and treasure of the All-Perfect.

 

I often think of milk in Australia...it is all homogenized in a factory - blended. So all the milk tastes the same. If I was fortunate to live in a country where each household owned a cow, it may be a surprise to me to find that a fine palate could taste many different flavors from each house-cow. My interest could be invoked to then find the source of each flavor. It would be charming to find each animal was unique (full of qualities) and because of that uniqueness, each gave its own nectar milk. This is just a crude example. Rather than seeing the milk simply as an object for satisfaction of my taste sense - there is something more relishable.

 

There surely must be some loss in lack of spiritual diversity? And this is what some Vaisnava schools of thought seem to be pointing out in their philosophy - at least such thought must be given some consideration in the search for truth, if not full contemplation.

[srikanthdk71]

 

I agree that to a monist it is untenable.

 

Because difference is real and not imaginary, it is not only natural but also the truth. If you feel this isn't the truth, you have to provide proof.

 

Justinji, lets be practical for a while as you ask for proofs. What proof is there that a Vaikunta or a Kailasa exists? What proof is there to prove the Kurma, Varaha, Matsya, Narasimha, Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma avatars. It is just the books(you may call it pramana,scriptures,mahagrantha whatever). None of the above can be proved and hence as you say, is just imaginary. What proof is there about Monoism. Is it all not speculation? As you exist, so are the other beings, living and non-living. The base of existance of all these can be known through realization of the Atman(proof again?). It can go on and on with no end with innumerous dualist/monoist perceptions. We may get lost in the plurality world. The oneness is just the base of what you sense through your sense organs and the experiencer of all these senses. Cant we be more scientific in our approach?

 

One of my Gurus used to say (a monoist again), "Just because you exist, everything Exists". This can mind-boggle anybody. Just imagine the 'I' within you does not exist. Everything is extinct to you. What is the truth?

 

 

Ravindran, there is no inference or reason to assume all is one. All inference and reason denote that things are different. Even if you use inference and perception, it fails you in your analysis because it is your inference and perception. Don't you think the VAs, tattvavAdins, Iscon, Vallabha's and the later achAryas have clarified that difference is real by clearly refuting monism.

 

If everything was real, the Charvakas and the Westerners perceptions are right. No need of spirituality. Enjoy the world. Make money. Afterall, no proof to know what happens after death and no proof that any thing called "God" exists. Is all our exercise is not just inferance?

 

 

No offence taken and I do not blame you. It is a fashion of non-dualists to categorize people who think differently as lower level individuals.

 

No offense here either dude, Blind beliefs are not dealt with a questioning mind and do not believe in sheep-herd mentality these days. In this scientific age, no person will be convinced with the loads of stories either in Puranas, The Bible or may it be any other book. They need proof as you rightly said. If you say that this is God, sing and dance in his glory or if you say that there is Atman, it is the base of all, again the big question is ?? proof ??. I feel we should be able to get it by sharing our experiences.

 

That was a mind-twisting thought Justin. Cheers to you. Cheers again mate.

[Ravindran Kesavan]

 

There are many cases of people around the world who have no inkling of Advaita and experienced oneness. These have been scientifically recorded as hallucinations or false notion of blissful state.

 

Dear Justin,

 

I am surprised to see your scientific turn after all that science bashing you did in the forum 'Does free will exist?'

 

It is not only that the experience of oneness is cosidered as hallucination or delution( false notion) by scientific psychology, but the entire religious ideas no matter whatever shades and doctrine it takes up is diagnosed as neurosis and psychosis (madness). You and I ( I mean Dualist and Monist) both are in the same condition as for as science is concerened.

 

No !You cannot use science to make other spiritual insight as madness and save your own as real and healthy. Either you accept science and be consistant and reject religion in totality with all its varieties, or you reject science in which case you cannot use it to judge religious insights and ideas , as science deals with merely the 'material realm' - your previous stance.

 

I think your previous anti-science stance is better- atleast you are consistant with that position.

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Dear Justin,

 

More over -as a second thought - Science cannot be against monism as science itself is striving to be monistic. Physicsts now are in search of a unified field - one single stuff which accounts for everything in existence.Grand Unification it is called in physics. (And Stephen Hawking's pet term for it is Theory of Everything (TOE). It has not been achieved yet but science is dreaming about it , Physists are working seriously on it ever since Albert Einstein who innograted this work. And there is nothing in principle that this cannot be achieved. In fact this is an ideal to be achieved in science and there is all the reason to assume that sooner or latter it is likely to be achieved , going by the reductionistic histroy of science ) . Science is monistic by its very essential nature.

 

The difference between spiritusl monism and scientific monism however is regarding the nature of this single basic stuff of the universe. Science holds that this single stuff to be material - matter, energy or string ( the latest verson). Whereas the spiritual monism holds it to be the spirit - Cit, Atman ,consciousness.

 

Science is materialistic monism and Advaida is spiritual monism . Science does not reject monism . In fact it approves of it and strives to reach that perfection. What it rejects is the category called 'spirit' and by that rejection all gods go as false categories, and all religion becomes delution system ( false belief).

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[Ravindran Kesavan]

 

Good point HeeHee....to say 'seeing difference is spiritual ignorance' is a bit too much.

 

Yes Ravindran that is basic gross vision you express here. We see everything as objects in that vision. But Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja is showing us correct vision as particles of the whole. This is why I disagree with you when you say 'seeing difference is spiritual ignorance'. The above quotes by Srila Sridhara Maharaja are far from ignorance. - Quote by Bija

 

Bear bija,

 

There is no disagreement with you. In fact, If you notice, I used a qualifying attribute 'Spiritual' before ignorance and wisdom ( spiritual ignorance , Spiritual Wisdom) . Plurality and diversity is an actual fact in the material world. and one cannot wish away this fundamental fact to function in the world. One needs to make distinctions and categorizations of all sorts to survive in the material world. Failing to make distinction in this world would lead to fatal consequences apart from being ignorant. Knowledge in the material realm is synonymous with classification and categorization. The 'category-less' knowlegde of the Zen Or "Everything is Brahman" argument of Advaidin would lead to serious fatal probleem in emprical world. I need to distinguish a wild animal and better not approach it thinking it is Brahman. If I dont make this simple practical distinction that 'Brahman' ( wild animal) will surely eat me up.

 

So it wise and intlegent to make distinction in the material practical world. Otherwise we are foolish - in worldly terms.

 

But it is quite another matter in spiritual realm which is a realm of pure spirit. Spiritual unity is the essence of spiritual wisdom . Living a completely successful materialistic life is not 'spiritual'. Srila BR Sridhra is spiritual because he is showing the unity behind the diversity - the particles of the Whole . The spiritual wisdom is about seeing the whole . Take away this Wholeness we are left with divergent separate individual particles. And when we see particles as separate particles we are materially wise but Spiritually ignorant. If we see the particles as parts of one single whole - a scheme of Oneness, then we are spiritually wise.

 

No contradiction between what you say and what I say. Perhaps the dispute arises out of mere verbal misunderstanding - a communication gap - a language problem.

 

I and you are saying the same thing fundamentally, though there could be some superficial difference in details between your special version of the spiritual doctrine and my version.

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

[bija]

 

Srila BR Sridhra is spiritual because he is showing the unity behind the diversity - the particles of the Whole . posted by ravindram

It need not be said on this Forum that the Gaudiya Vaisnava sees the parts and parcels of the Whole as existing eternally, not just a temporary phenomena in this material world.

 

Infact with eyes of the soul this plane can also be vaikuntha, or the holy dham. This is what Maharaja is pointing to. Infact for mukti we need simply correct vision...which is not these material eyes. The finer subtle point of Krsna consciousness is we do not negate the world, but instead practice to live in the 'kingdom of God'. Positive and progressive immortality - applying all things in God's service.

 

So what the Advaitin calls 'false' we would say not false but 'temporary'. So in the realized state, like your spirituality, there is really no death. But for us the soul is a continuum...always in service....even in the stage of practice in this so called material world. In a higher sense there is no material - all is spiritual energy, as all energy is from God's potencies.

 

Thx for sharing your thoughts on this subject...it is always a pleasure.

[weallshineon]

 

It need not be said on this Forum that the Gaudiya Vaisnava sees the parts and parcels of the Whole as existing eternally, not just a temporary phenomena in this material world.

 

Infact with eyes of the soul this plane can also be vaikuntha, or the holy dham. This is what Maharaja is pointing to. Infact for mukti we need simply correct vision...which is not these material eyes.

 

Thx for sharing your thoughts on this subject...it is always a pleasure.

 

Nice realization, your cool? I just spent an hour reading all your posts, I think your a dear devotee of Lord Krishna

[bija]

Thx for the compliment (all glories to Guru and to kind devotees). Hopefully all them posts can be put into practice oneday:pray:...that is the hope.

 

'we-all-shine-on' is a lovely name by the way...when you first came here I realized the tag. Blessed man hey-great lyrics;).

 

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[srikanthdk71]

 

Infact with eyes of the soul this plane can also be vaikuntha, or the holy dham. This is what Maharaja is pointing to. Infact for mukti we need simply correct vision...which is not these material eyes. The finer subtle point of Krsna consciousness is we do not negate the world, but instead practice to live in the 'kingdom of God'. Positive and progressive immortality - applying all things in God's service.

 

Infact a nice post dear one. Great, you are a true believer. Moksha/Mukti indeed needs correct Vision, the inner Vision which is in your words, the Vision of Krishna. When you tap the Vision of Krishna, you See what Krishna see. You experience what Krishna experience, you become Krishna. If Krishna just needs a Vaikunta to relax, I find it hard to digest, he is omnipotent and omnipresent. This conciousness is nothing but Krishna Conciousness. We are already living in the Kingdom of God but with incorrect Vision. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

 

So what the Advaitin calls 'false' we would say not false but 'temporary'. So in the realized state, like your spirituality, there is really no death. But for us the soul is a continuum...always in service....even in the stage of practice in this so called material world. In a higher sense there is no material - all is spiritual energy, as all energy is from God's potencies.

 

Thx for sharing your thoughts on this subject...it is always a pleasure.

 

A simple question. Is temporary true? The experience of the temporary is true. You have a body. True. You leave the body. Now, the body is untrue till you get another body. Any state of dilemma is untrue. For example, a thought. Is it true? A sensual(eyes/nose/touch/taste/ear) experience. Is it true? Then what is True? Is it not the experiencer who is experiencing all this at all time even when you are alive or dead, awake or in sleep. So, the experiencer has no death or Birth. He/She/It is always there. It can only be True. If it is True, there cannot be lesser truth and greater truth coz Truth is Truth (Purnamadah, Purnamidam...). Is it False?

[weallshineon]

 

Thx for the compliment (all glories to Guru and to kind devotees). Hopefully all them posts can be put into practice oneday:pray:...that is the hope.

 

'we-all-shine-on' is a lovely name by the way...when you first came here I realized the tag. Blessed man hey-great lyrics;).

 

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Instant Karma goin to get them YEAH ITS GONA BE BIG

[bija]

 

Not false...if I come to your place and tap you on the shoulder...you feel. Not false is it? We are both in agreeance on the discussion of atman. But the devotee also considers paramatman. We are not paramatman.

 

Now, we may experience many things, as you said in a previous post, even clauraudience and caurvouyancy (sorry for the spelling). But you will notice as we experience such things, we do not see everything. Therefore our conscious experience is limited to a certain field, normally the body.

 

But saying that we are definately connected to paramatma, which is one. This paramatma is aware of all fields, and surely paramatma can communicate to all atman. This is our connecting point Sri.

 

We are not paramatma, and cannot see all. But saying that, as we become purified in consciousness...the light of god will teach us many many things. Is it not? So in that sense we gradually become aware of our unity with the source...of which we are the same quality. This is my direct experience...not book knowledge alone, as you have implied previously.

 

Now, good sense tells me, if paramatma leads me to deeper love, that love will also lead to deeper union. The rasika bhakta wishes simply not to merge. God allows us to merge, if we desire. But we simply choose not to. Why? So that loving mellows can deepen...even enhanced in deep seperation.

 

Union is reality...but so is love.

 

I hope this answers your questions...without me condemning in any way your spiritual sight. I am not Krsna....but as his fragmental part I am of the same spiritual quality....sat cit ananda...even vigraha.

[bija]

 

Infact a nice post dear one. Great, you are a true believer. Moksha/Mukti indeed needs correct Vision, the inner Vision which is in your words, the Vision of Krishna. When you tap the Vision of Krishna, you See what Krishna see. You experience what Krishna experience, you become Krishna. If Krishna just needs a Vaikunta to relax, I find it hard to digest, he is omnipotent and omnipresent. This conciousness is nothing but Krishna Conciousness. We are already living in the Kingdom of God but with incorrect Vision. Correct me if I am wrong. posted by srikanthdk71

 

What you say here is actually very beautiful. We do begin to see more of the heart of the Beloved. Infact Sri such has been a meditation the last few days for me....it is very easy to realize the fallen state...when all we see is objects. But if we begin to awaken to the vision, to the heart, to the experience of the other...we are surely beginning to see.

 

Infact, such is the charm of that beauty...we may wish to merge with it. Isnt this so...we can even see that desire in the shadowy material world...and its love;).

 

Why need for vaikuntha for the absolute...when by nature the absolute is already perfect and complete? Simply love I would say...because just as eternity is eternity...love has no limit. The vaikuntha then becomes the realms where that limitless love (by its very nature) expands in all direction - unbounded by the limit of inferior energy. Even in seperation.

[srikanthdk71]

 

Infact, such is the charm of that beauty...we may wish to merge with it. Isnt this so...we can even see that desire in the shadowy material world...and its love;).

 

You have lots of love in your heart to bestow. Bija, i am flattened by your words of immense love for all and for the one you believe.

 

You are a gem.

[bija]

thank you...please forgive my past flaws...I guess we are all in this boat together...two by two...four by four...looking for the good dry land;)

 

what we all have in common is much room in the heart...full of space...

[Amlesh]

 

 

Not false...if I come to your place and tap you on the shoulder...you feel. Not false is it? We are both in agreeance on the discussion of atman. But the devotee also considers paramatman. We are not paramatman.

 

Now, we may experience many things, as you said in a previous post, even clauraudience and caurvouyancy (sorry for the spelling). But you will notice as we experience such things, we do not see everything. Therefore our conscious experience is limited to a certain field, normally the body.

 

But saying that we are definately connected to paramatma, which is one. This paramatma is aware of all fields, and surely paramatma can communicate to all atman. This is our connecting point Sri.

 

We are not paramatma, and cannot see all. But saying that, as we become purified in consciousness...the light of god will teach us many many things. Is it not? So in that sense we gradually become aware of our unity with the source...of which we are the same quality. This is my direct experience...not book knowledge alone, as you have implied previously.

 

Now, good sense tells me, if paramatma leads me to deeper love, that love will also lead to deeper union. The rasika bhakta wishes simply not to merge. God allows us to merge, if we desire. But we simply choose not to. Why? So that loving mellows can deepen...even enhanced in deep seperation.

 

Union is reality...but so is love.

 

I hope this answers your questions...without me condemning in any way your spiritual sight. I am not Krsna....but as his fragmental part I am of the same spiritual quality....sat cit ananda...even vigraha.

 

Rightly said Bija.

Alone, each individual spirit is not God, when all united, we contitute God.

 

The same Hari / Ram / Krishna.

[Amlesh]

We are within Him and yet He is aloof.

[srikanthdk71]

 

:)Not false...if I come to your place and tap you on the shoulder...you feel. Not false is it? We are both in agreeance on the discussion of atman. But the devotee also considers paramatman. We are not paramatman.

 

Coz, here both feel through our perception of Senses. It is true till the point you think 'I am the body'. Yes, we are not paramatman. But, the part-o-atman.

 

 

Now, we may experience many things, as you said in a previous post, even clauraudience and caurvouyancy (sorry for the spelling). But you will notice as we experience such things, we do not see everything. Therefore our conscious experience is limited to a certain field, normally the body.

 

It is that just we do not know how to use the senses. Fine tuning can do wonders. The clairvoiance and clairaudience is truth. Infact we use just 8 percent of our brain. We do not use one hemisphere of our brain at all!!!. Just imagine what all we can do. We are just satisfied with what we have.

 

 

But saying that we are definately connected to paramatma, which is one. This paramatma is aware of all fields, and surely paramatma can communicate to all atman. This is our connecting point Sri.

 

Yes, infact the vice-versa should also be true in this case. You can also connect to the Paramatman and know what he knows by downloading it from the connection you have established.Downloading?? It automatically flows.

 

 

We are not paramatma, and cannot see all. But saying that, as we become purified in consciousness...the light of god will teach us many many things. Is it not? So in that sense we gradually become aware of our unity with the source...of which we are the same quality. This is my direct experience...not book knowledge alone, as you have implied previously.

 

When a Bhakta sees the Lord, what is the Truth? The Bhakta has risen to the level that he can perceive even god at his own Will. In the same way, if he still raises higher and higher, he starts doing things that we normally ask for God to give. Still higher, he is just within himself. One with the Lord. All knowing. Dvaita here is a step to Reality(?).

 

 

Now, good sense tells me, if paramatma leads me to deeper love, that love will also lead to deeper union. The rasika bhakta wishes simply not to merge. God allows us to merge, if we desire. But we simply choose not to. Why? So that loving mellows can deepen...even enhanced in deep seperation.

 

Union is reality...but so is love.

 

I hope this answers your questions...without me condemning in any way your spiritual sight. I am not Krsna....but as his fragmental part I am of the same spiritual quality....sat cit ananda...even vigraha.

 

What can I say on this. Nothing can be said. You are full of Love Bija. We all love you.

[Ravindran Kesavan]

Bija certainly is a gem and a realised soul. His Spiritual realization shows in his fine debate culture. Even when he disagrees with you he does very nicely with grace serinity and with sweet and kind words. We all should learn from him how to debate. Disaggreement is the very nature of debate. Otherwise there is no debate. But how one does it is a fineart in which Bija is a master. His genune spiritual realization and genune Krishna bakti is to be attributed for this fineness and sweetness - He knows - or rather is in - Madhurabhava genunely.

 

K.Ravindran