The wonderful Hindu invasion of ISKCON Melbourne

suchandra · September 14, 2008

My feelings expressed are directed to kali-yuga priests who consider themselves intermediaters between man and God. My belief is this is outdated.

Well spoken and as Ananda Svarupa dasa says, "the problem is that in ISKCON and other control-oriented organizations they have promoted only ONE concept of guru, or the uttama liberated guru, thus imitating Srila Prabhupada’s exalted position".

Srila Prabhupada on Guru

BY: ANANDA SVARUPA DASA

Sep 12, NETHERLANDS (SUN) —

There have been some comments on my recent article on guru, "

An Answer for Satya dasa

". The most important point is that there are many kinds of gurus:

amara ajnaya guru haya tara ei desha / jare dekho tare kaha krsna upadesa

. Anyone who gives instructions about Krsna is guru. All he has to do is try to preach and by Mahaprabhu's order he is guru. The problem is that in ISKCON and other control-oriented organizations they have promoted only ONE concept of guru, or the

uttama

liberated guru, thus imitating Srila Prabhupada’s exalted position. That’s because knowingly or (to be charitable) sub-consciously many want(ed) a position like Srila Prabhupada’s because of envy, ambition, upward mobility, impatience and, above all, a basic lack of the real taste of Krsna consciousness.

In any case, we should be grateful to whoever guides us in the direction of Krsna and the pure devotees. In that sense, the ISKCON gurus, including the infamous fallen ones all deserve some credit. The problem comes when gurus mis-represent themselves as something higher than they are, as I tried to explain in my article. There is no question that Srila Prabhupada wanted all of his disciples to be gurus. Did he think they would all be

uttamas

? Obviously not. He could not find even one.

So, rather than get involved in a dry academic quote by quote discussion with anonymous writers who do not provide any information as to who they are or what is their history and competence to comment on KC subjects, I will let Srila Prabhupada speak for himself (bold emphasis is mine):

From a lecture on the Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.25.1, Bombay, November 13, 1974:

There is a

parampara

system, as it is described in the Bhagavad-gita, Fourth Chapter:

evam parampara-praptam imam rajasayo viduh

[bg. 4.2]. So our business, conscious people, our business is very easy. Because we don't manufacture ideas. We take the idea and the words delivered by the Supreme Person, Krsna, or His incarnation, or His representative. His representative does not say anything which the master does not say.

Representative is very easy. You can become representative of Krsna if you do not interpret Krsna 's words in your whimsical way

. Krsna says,

mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya

: [bg. 7.7] "There is no more superior authority than Me." And if you take it as it is, and if you speak to the people that "There is no more superior authority than Krsna,"

then you become guru. You become guru. You don't change. Then you become guru

. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has instructed this.

Amara ajnaya guru haya tara' ei desa

[Cc. Madhya 7.128]. His, He was preaching. So He was preaching everyone, from country to country. Of course, He did not go outside India. Within India. And He was instructing that "You learn from Me and teach your people within this village, within this country."

Amara ajnaya guru haya tara' ei desa

[Cc. Madhya 7.128].

Ei desa

means "this country, or this place where you are living." Then?

amara ajnaya guru haya

.

You become guru. So one may think that "I am illiterate. I have no education. I am not born in very high family. How I can become guru?" So Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that "It is not very difficult."

yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa

[Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Bas. You become guru. You simply speak whatever Krsna speaks. Then you become guru.

So anyone who does not speak what Krsna has spoken, he's not guru. He's a rascal. He cannot be guru. He is guru who speaks only what Krsna has spoken. This is the sastric injunction.

<center>

sat-karma-nipuno vipro mantra-tantra-visaradah

avaisnavo gurur na syad vaisnavah sva-paco guruh

</center>

This is the definition of guru

, that one brahmana, born in brahmana family and very educated, mantra-tantra-visaradah, very expert in reciting Vedic mantras... That is the duty of brahmana, veda-mantra. So

mantra-tantra-visaradah

. But avaisnava, if he's not Vaisnava, or if he's not follower of the instruction of Visnu or Krsna,

avaisnavo gurur na syat

, he cannot become guru. And

vaisnavah sva-pacah. Sva-pacah

means the dog-eater. That is considered the lowest of the mankind, dog-eaters, means

candala, bhangis

. He becomes gu..., he can become guru. How? If he's Vaisnava, he is devotee of Visnu or Krsna. So Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu... That is His mission.

<center>

yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa

amara ajnaya guru haya tara' ei desa

[Cc. Madhya 7.128]

</center>

So if we simply take the words of Bhagavan and preach, then it is very easy for us to become, each and every one, to become guru. Not to exploit. No. But to give knowledge

. And what is that knowledge? What Krsna has spoken. That's all. So even one is not very learned scholar, Sanskrit scholar, everyone has got this ear. He can hear from Krsna and Krsna's representative and assimilate what is spoken by Krsna, and he can repeat the same.

Then he becomes guru

. That is the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He said,

<center>

bharata-bhumite haila manusya-janma yara

janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara

[Cc. Adi 9.41]

</center>

To become guru means para-upakara

. People are in the darkness, so they have to be enlightened. That is the Vedic injunction.

Uttisthata jagrata prapya varan nibodhata

.

To summarize, guru is ultimately Hari, but not all gurus are

saksad hari

, only an

uttama

guru. Still, we can be grateful to see the plan and mercy of the Lord in all levels of gurus. And if they are cheating in some way, then we can be grateful when that is also revealed.

theist · September 14, 2008

Well spoken and as Ananda Svarupa dasa says, "the problem is that in ISKCON and other control-oriented organizations they have promoted only ONE concept of guru, or the uttama liberated guru, thus imitating Srila Prabhupada’s exalted position".

Very true. Imitating is not following. It may be innocent in the beginning like a child learning to write imitates the teacher. It become sinister when someone tries to imitate the teacher in terms of having a similar mood and realization and bluffs others into seeing him for more than is.

I was thinking more along the lines of just ordinary graft of position. No one needs a brahmin or pujari to approach the Lord.

Each soul is a priest, each body a temple, and has the Lord's permission to approach Him within himself, on the altar of the heart.

IMO it is mandatory that at some stage of our spiritual life we come to understand this.

Oranganized religious practice is good because it brings one to this realization. However it becomes a prison house for the further development of the soul if it fosters a dependence upon itself as the only means of approaching and knowing God instead of showing the new aspirant the nature of his freedom.

suchandra · September 15, 2008

Very true. Imitating is not following. It may be innocent in the beginning like a child learning to write imitates the teacher. It become sinister when someone tries to imitate the teacher in terms of having a similar mood and realization and bluffs others into seeing him for more than is.

I was thinking more along the lines of just ordinary graft of position. No one needs a brahmin or pujari to approach the Lord.

Each soul is a priest, each body a temple, and has the Lord's permission to approach Him within himself, on the altar of the heart.

IMO it is mandatory that at some stage of our spiritual life we come to understand this.

Oranganized religious practice is good because it brings one to this realization. However it becomes a prison house for the further development of the soul if it fosters a dependence upon itself as the only means of approaching and knowing God instead of showing the new aspirant the nature of his freedom.

It should be pointed out from whom present Vaishnavas are actually taking siksha. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja has adopted this concept of prioritizing teaching (siksha) over formal ordination (diksha) as a sign of relationship and a marker of disciplic succession. Therefore the relationship for example of Srila Jagannath Das Babaji was more significant in Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur’s life than Bipin Bihari Goswami, who was his diksha-guru.

Formalities

BY: MAHESH RAJA

Sep 14, UK (SUN) — The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.

In his recent article, "

Ravindra Svarupa's Role in the Guru Reform Movement

", Rocana Prabhu wrote"

“It's a fact, as Kurma dasa writes, that this system of voted-in gurus is nonsense. Of course, Kurma prabhu is trying to make out that Srila Prabhupada’s original program, which he thinks is synonymous with the current Rtvik system, should be put in place now. That’s where he and I have a different understanding. I don’t think you can introduce a system that has no verification in sastra.”

Since many of us support the July 9th 1977

ORDER of Ritvik System

that Srila Prabhupada himself set-up AND NEVER RECINDED, I wish to respond to the above.

The Ritvik System is just FORMALITIES, so as per Srila Prabhupada’s instructions: “

The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas

.”

It is being misconstrued as “introduce a new system”, BUT--FACTUALLY--it is ONLY FORMALITIES.

Lets study the following in terms of FORMALITIES:

1) Srila Prabhupada as a sannayasi got his disciples married. There is no verification in sastra that a sannyasi can do this.

Srimad Bhagavatam 5.1.24 Purport - The Activities of Maharaja Priyavrata:

"Sometimes we are criticized because although I am a sannyasi, I have taken part in the marriage ceremonies of my disciples. It must be explained, however, that since we have started a Krsna conscious society and since a human society must also have ideal marriages, to correctly establish an ideal society we must take part in marrying some of its members, although we have taken to the path of renunciation. This may be astonishing to persons who are not very interested in establishing daiva-varnasrama, the transcendental system of four social orders and four spiritual orders. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, however, wanted to reestablish daiva-varnasrama. In daiva-varnasrama there cannot be acknowledgement of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gita it is said that the determining considerations are guna and karma, one's qualities and work. It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krsna consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Krsna conscious society."

Srila Prabhupada's Vyasapuja Lecture, August 22, 1973, London:

"I'm sometimes criticized by my Godbrothers that I have become a marriage-maker, because a sannyasi does not take part in a marriage ceremony, but I get my disciples married. This is also unique in the history. So they criticize me that I have become a marriage-maker. But they, they do not know why I take this risk. I have got many disciples, they are married couples, but all of them, husband and wife, they are helping this movement. Here is Bhagavan dasa, he's also married man, children."

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Satsvarupa, September 20, 1968:

"In your letter of the 17th instant, you have very frankly inquired from me about householder life, especially in the matter of sex relationship. A sannyasi is not supposed to be asked about anything sexual. But still, because you are so much dependent on my instruction, so I must give you information as far as possible. Married life is not for sex indulgence. The principle of marriage is on the background of getting good children. So the householder is allowed to have sex life once in a month, just after the menstrual period. The menstrual period prolongs at least for 5 days, so after this 5 days, one can have sex life provided he desires to get a child. And as soon as the wife is pregnant, no more sex life, until the child is born and is grown up at least for 6 months. After that, one may have sex life on the same principle. If one does not want more than one or two children, he should voluntarily stop sex life. But one should not strictly use any contraceptive method and at the same time indulge in sex life. That is very much sinful. If the husband and wife can voluntarily restrain by powerful advancement of Krishna Consciousness. That is the best method. It is not necessary that because one has got wife, therefore you must have sex life. The whole scheme is to avoid sex life as far as possible. And if one can avoid it completely then it is a great victory for him. Married life is a sort of license for sex life on condition of raising children. So you should try to understand these principles of married life and use your discretion. You should not imitate great personalities like Bhaktivinode Thakura, but you must follow His footprints. But it is not always possible to have the same success as great personalities like Bhaktivinode Thakura achieved. So in all circumstances you should try to follow the footprints of authorities but never to imitate them. Unless Jadurani develops a better health and strength, I do not advise her to become pregnant. I think you will understand the instruction as I have given and try to follow it as far as possible."

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Sacisuta, July 5, 1969:

"Please accept my blessings. I thank you very much for your letter dated June 23, 1969, and I have carefully gone over the contents. I am so pleased to learn that you are feeling very nicely in Buffalo temple and you are working hard and sincerely to push on this sublime movement of Krishna Consciousness. Regarding your question about marriage, the thing is that as I am a sannyasi, I am not concerned with family life, but because I want to see my disciples very happy in Krishna Consciousness, therefore, those who are feeling some sexual disturbance are requested by me to get themselves married."

2) Srila Prabhupada had disciples hear the TAPE of him giving Gayatri Mantra at brahmana initiation. There is no verification in sastra of this.

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Gaura Hari, September 24, 1971:

"At your recommendation I have gladly consented to accept Guy as my duly initiated disciple. His letter and beads are enclosed herewith. Also enclosed are three sacred threads duly chanted by me as well as four papers with Gayatri mantra for the four devotees you have recommended for second initiation. You should secure the tape of me reciting Gayatri mantra from Makhanlal in Seattle. Let each devotee hear the tape privately, one at a time, and through the right ear. They should have the paper in front of them and hear and repeat each word. Beforehand you can show them how to count on the fingers, and beforehand hold a fire yajna and get the threads on the boys' bodies."

3) Srila Prabhupada had the WIFE of one disciple read Gayatri mantra to a devotee. There is no verification in sastra of this.

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Vaikunthanatha, Sardia, April 4, 1971:

"Even though you have had no gayatri mantra, still you are more than brahmana. I am enclosing herewith your sacred thread, duly chanted on by me. Gayatri mantra is as follows:

[TAKEN OUT]

Ask your wife to chant this mantra and you hear it and if possible hold a fire ceremony as you have seen during your marriage and get this sacred thread on your body. Saradia, or any twice-initiated devotee, may perform the ceremony.

What Srila Prabhupada did was unprecedented in the history of Vaisnava sampradaya. But this did NOT mean he transgressed the sastra. On the contrary, sastra fully support Srila Prabhupada’s actions IN AS MUCH AS the Ritvik System is ALSO part and parcel of above FORMALITY, wherein the Ritvik Representatives are performing FORMALITIES, i.e., the fire sacrifice and name giving CEREMONIES.

The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.

Srimad Bhagavatam 4.8.54 Purport - Dhruva Maharaja Leaves Home for the Forest:

"Those who are not actually in the line of acaryas, or who personally have no knowledge of how to act in the role of acarya, unnecessarily criticize the activities of the ISKCON movement in countries outside of India. The fact is that such critics cannot do anything personally to spread Krsna consciousness. If someone does go and preach, taking all risks and allowing all considerations for time and place, it might be that there are changes in the manner of worship, but that is not at all faulty according to sastra.

Srimad Viraraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas

."

Srimad Bhagavatam 6.12.20 Purport - Vrtrasura' s Glorious Death:

"Therefore Sukadeva Gosvami says in Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.4.18):

kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa

abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah

ye 'nye ca papa yad-apasrayasrayah

sudhyanti tasmai prabhavisnave namah

"Kiratas, Hunas, Andhras, Pulindas, Pulkasas, Abhiras, Sumbhas, Yavanas and members of the Khasa races, and even others addicted to sinful acts can be purified by taking shelter of the devotees of the Lord, for He is the supreme power. I beg to offer my respectful obeisances unto Him."

Anyone can be purified if he takes shelter of a pure devotee and molds his character according to the pure devotee's direction. Then, even if one is a Kirata, Andhra, Pulinda or whatever, he can be purified and elevated to the position of a maha-paurusya

."

Rocana Prabhu wrote:

“I don’t think you can introduce a system that has no verification in sastra.”

Yes we agree - ALL Srila Prabhupada did was change FORMALITIES in the way initiation was to be conducted in first and second initiations: "

The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas

."

BUT Diksa per say, when MADHYAMA adhikari receives is unchanged, as that is NOT formality (see

Diksa Given to Madhyama-adhikari is Not a Formality

").

Srila Prabhupada in the July 9th, 1977 ORDER is FORMALITY of HOW 1st and 2nd initiations were to be conducted - and THAT is ALL it was. And THIS was the change in terms of FORMALITY, nothing more.

The INITIATED disciples were to be Srila Prabhupada's DISCIPLES. How can you have disciples belonging to anyone else? Disciples belong to one who gives discipline. FACTUALLY we are ALL taking - DISCIPLINE - FROM Srila Prabhupada's books, CDs, Tapes. Common sense!

suchandra · September 15, 2008

<table style="" border="0" cellpadding="0"><tbody><tr><td style="border: medium none rgb(236, 233, 216); padding: 0.75pt; background-color: transparent;">

The wonderful Hindu invasion of ISKCON Melbourne

</td></tr></tbody></table>

Devotees celebrate Janmastami 2008

Indian Hindus are populating ISKCON Temples in the West in a way never seen before over the last 42 years. This is happening all over the world at a massive rate and is not a phenomenon as some suggest.

It was reported that on Janmastami the above mentioned Melbourne temple collected 370,000 dollars from all these guests ("The ISKCON Temple I visted for Janamastami collected 370,000 dollars in one day that goes towards a second bigger Temple in the pipe works"). However, when reading below what is happening with all this Laxmi one has to question if this is really helping the Sankirtan movement?

Ramai Swami Caught in Exotic Resort

BY: SATYA DASA

Sep 14, MANCHESTER, UK (SUN) —

We have heard that many devotees in Australasia are now up in arms after Ramai Swami was discovered, by the wife of one of New Zealand's Temple Presidents, living it up in an Exotic Resort in Fiji. The cost of such a Resort is US $700 per night. Thus while the local temples struggles to cover their basic overheads, which include a GBC stipend (wage) to Ramai Swami, the Swami lives the high road, which is beyond the dreams of most householders.

HH Ramai Swami

As more details come to light it may be, as in many cases within ISKCON, that we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg. Generally when a Swami is found hiding away in such places of sense gratification there is more news to follow. Unfortunately, as is often the case within ISKCON, it may take some time before all the details come out, if at all. But certainly we question the need of a Swami staying in such elaborate accommodation.

suchandra · September 17, 2008

sannyasa is not authorized after 1977

"Sannyasa Ashram Outlawed in ISKCON after 1977 BY: BHAKTA HARRY Sep 15, USA (SUN)

Srila Prabhupada Conversation, 7/1/ BY: BHAKTA HARRY 'No more sannyasis' another instruction not followed by ISKCON.

"If you talk in the modern society they will laugh: "What nonsense this man is... 'By sex life one becomes conditioned.' " They cannot understand. Hare Krsna...This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyasis. And those sannyasis who have fallen, you get them married, live like a... No more this showbottle, cheating. It is very ludicrous. Even there is a promise that "We shall not fall down again," that is also not believable. What is the use?"

(Srila Prabhupada Conversation, 7/1/77)

"And this kind of hypocrisy--they have taken sannyasa and mixing with woman. This is not to be allowed. If you want woman you get yourself married, live respectfully. We have no objection. But this hypocrisy should be stopped. There have been so many fallen down. First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore. I have got very bad experience. And at least, we are not going to create new sannyasis. And those who have fallen down, let them marry, live like respectable gentlemen. I have no objection. [...] Get one wife and live like a gentleman. Similarly woman. Live with one husband fastidiously, with children. What is the wrong there? We have so many grhastha devotees. [...] But what is this nonsense that you take sannyasa and make relation with...? This should be completely stopped."

(Srila Prabhupada Conversation, 7/1/77)

theist · September 17, 2008

A perfect example of imitating and not following the acarya.

sannyasa is not authorized after 1977
"Sannyasa Ashram Outlawed in ISKCON after 1977 BY: BHAKTA HARRY Sep 15, USA (SUN)

Srila Prabhupada Conversation, 7/1/ BY: BHAKTA HARRY 'No more sannyasis' another instruction not followed by ISKCON.

"If you talk in the modern society they will laugh: "What nonsense this man is... 'By sex life one becomes conditioned.' " They cannot understand. Hare Krsna...This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyasis. And those sannyasis who have fallen, you get them married, live like a... No more this showbottle, cheating. It is very ludicrous. Even there is a promise that "We shall not fall down again," that is also not believable. What is the use?"

(Srila Prabhupada Conversation, 7/1/77)

"And this kind of hypocrisy--they have taken sannyasa and mixing with woman. This is not to be allowed. If you want woman you get yourself married, live respectfully. We have no objection. But this hypocrisy should be stopped. There have been so many fallen down. First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore. I have got very bad experience. And at least, we are not going to create new sannyasis. And those who have fallen down, let them marry, live like respectable gentlemen. I have no objection. [...] Get one wife and live like a gentleman. Similarly woman. Live with one husband fastidiously, with children. What is the wrong there? We have so many grhastha devotees. [...] But what is this nonsense that you take sannyasa and make relation with...? This should be completely stopped."

(Srila Prabhupada Conversation, 7/1/77)

Sarva gattah · September 17, 2008

hallelujah

Actually sannyas is more of a managerial post these days however, that does not mean there are not genuine Swamis' preaching selflessly and humbly without the arrogence of self centred material opulance, out there.

Srila Prabhupada did not outrightly ban Sannyas, he just wanted the movement to mature and devotees wait longer for that 'renounced order' to be given instead of taking it while the the devotees bodies are way too young. I don't think anyone who took sannyas while under 25 years old, is still a sannyasi, except for Jayapartarka Swami, maybe someone can reseach that.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura accepted sannyasa for the purpose of preaching Krsna consciousness all over the world and he passed that on to his disciples who in turn passed that on to their Godbrothers and disciples who in turn passed that on to their disciples, and who in turn passed that on to their disciples. Therefore the conclusion is that if a man wants to preach Krsna consciousness and serve his Gurudeva with all his energy then he should certainly take sannyasa when he is spiritually mature.

theist · September 17, 2008

How does sannyasa aid in preaching in the west Sarva?

Sarva gattah · September 17, 2008

How does sannyasa aid in preaching in the west Sarva?

I personally believe there s no longer 'West or East' anymore because the world has become a global village. Sannyas is the personal act or renunciation and 100% commitment to serving the desires of the Guru.

In Prabhupada's case, that's preaching all over the world however, being Sannyas is really not necessary. Being a devotee who preaches is the best title, if ones a Brahmacari, householder, congregational member or sannyas it does not matter.

Actually sannyas is often more of a managerial post these days however, that does not mean there are not traditional Swamis' preaching selflessly and humbly out there, unburdened by managerial tasks.

There exists many humble sannyasis who are without the arrogence that demands respect, who are not attached to self centred material opulance and the high life that we see come living today.

A real sannyasi commands respect with their 'caring' selfless atitude and never 'demands' respect with their arrogence cleverly and selfishly designed to preserve their own power base, leadership position, and layback life style, no matter what the cost is

Srila Prabhupada did not outrightly ban Sannyas, he just wanted the movement to mature and devotees wait longer for that 'renounced order' to be given instead of taking it while the the devotees bodies are way too young. I don't think anyone who took sannyas while under 25 years old, is still a sannyasi, except for Jayapartarka Swami, maybe someone can reseach that.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura accepted sannyasa for the purpose of preaching Krsna consciousness all over the world and he passed that on to his disciples who in turn passed that on to their Godbrothers and disciples who in turn passed that on to their disciples, and who in turn passed that on to their disciples. Therefore the conclusion is that if a man wants to preach Krsna consciousness and serve his Gurudeva with all his energy then he should certainly take sannyasa when he is spiritually mature.

A real sannyasi commands respect with their 'caring' selfless atitude and never 'demands' respect with their arrogence to selfishly preserve their own power base and leadership position, no matter the cost

Traditionally though, Sannyas attracts respect, for example on seeing a sannyasi, devotees pay obedience’s and people tend to respect you more. This has been the case in the west since the 60s when the Beatles made this popular in the media. Everyone back then was attracted to a “swami” and everyone wanted to become a swami because they were considered ‘advanced’ However, back then it was all a novality.

I remember when Hanuman took sannyas at the age of 20 in 1972, he ran around with his new danda like it was a new toy. He was married within two years. Most took sannyas to imitate Srila Prabhupada (the Swami) therefore it would not last. Without a doubt, some have cleverly maintained their external appearence as a Sannyasi, yet to them, it's more of a managerial title than what we traditionally know Sannyas to be.

Should sannyasis just travel and preach and leave ALL mananerial posts such as GBC, Regional secretary etc to others? These questions will come up in ISKCON tme and time again. This is only the early pioneering beginning of Lord Caitanya's world movement.

Here Prabhupada advises to be very careful and not loose sight of our real purpose -

Srila Prabhupada - "We may take the lesson that in our fight with maya we should not be in a position in which our strength, enthusiasm and senses will be unable to fight vigorously.

Our Krsna consciousness movement has actually declared war against the illusory energy, in which all the living entities are rotting in a false understanding of civilization. The soldiers in this Krsna consciousness movement must always possess physical strength, enthusiasm and sensual power.

To keep themselves fit, they must therefore place themselves in a normal condition of life. What constitutes a normal condition will not be the same for everyone, and therefore there are divisions of varnasrama--brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, brahmacarya, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is advised that no one take sannyasa.

asvamedham gavalambham

sannyasam pala-paitrkam

devarena sutotpattim

kalau panca vivarjayet

(Brahma-vaivarta Purana)

From this we can understand that in this age the sannyasa-asrama is forbidden because people are not strong. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu showed us an example in taking sannyasa at the age of twenty-four years, but even Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya advised Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to be extremely careful because He had taken sannyasa at an early age. For preaching, we give young boys sannyasa, but actually it is being experienced that they are not fit for sannyasa.

There is no harm, however, if one thinks that he is unfit for sannyasa; if he is very much agitated sexually, he should go to the asrama where sex is allowed, namely the grhastha-asrama. That one has been found to be very weak in one place does not mean that he should stop fighting the crocodile of maya.

One should take shelter of the lotus feet of Krsna, as we shall see Gajendra do, and at the same time one can be a grhastha if he is satisfied with sexual indulgence. There is no need to give up the fight.

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu therefore recommended, sthane sthitah sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhih. One may stay in whichever asrama is suitable for him; it is not essential that one take sannyasa. If one is sexually agitated, he can enter the grhastha-asrama.

But one must continue fighting.

For one who is not in a transcendental position, to take sannyasa artificially is not a very great credit. If sannyasa is not suitable, one may enter the grhastha-asrama and fight maya with great strength.

But one should not give up the fighting and go away".

Bhaktivedanta purports of the Eighth Canto, Second Chapter, TEXT 30 PURPORT of the Srimad-Bhagavatam, entitled "The Elephant Gajendra's Crisis

theist · September 18, 2008

I personally believe there s no longer 'West or East' anymore because the world has become a global village. Sannyas is the personal act or renunciation and 100% commitment to serving the desires of the Guru.

Butin India there is an understanding of the four ashrams whereas in the westthere is not. Here even a common dhoti is taken as religious garb and the wearer of such cloth brings scrutiny upon himself. The grossest misuse of the order of sannyas in Iskcon is well documented. I myself was very naive and thought that all those sanyassis were very spiritually advanced. That is until I learned that one "sanyasi" was using his status a "holy man" to commit crimes in Japan and smuggled heroin from Asia to the Phillipines where another "devotee" was selling it. That second person was the one who told me who he was getting it from as he tried to recruit me into their smuggling ring. he got busted in Phillipines and I understand the fake sannyasi also got arrested for smuggling in Sweden or same place and did time. Names are not important but I suspect you know who I mean.

The point is I believe these wannabe sannyasi's do more harm then good. Better to grow some here and dress in khaki's and a tee shirt and live a simple bhakta. IMO of course.

In Prabhupada's case, that's preaching all over the world however, being Sannyas is really not necessary. Being a devotee who preaches is the best title, if ones a Brahmacari, householder, congregational member or sannyas it does not matter.

suchandra · September 18, 2008

I personally believe

Thanks Sarva, this is the understanding that rules. "I personally believe". There is of course nothing wrong with this but why you people also insist that this is what Prabhupada wanted? Prabhupada's last statements concerning sannyasa were as posted above without the necessity to interpret, "First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore. I have got very bad experience. And at least, we are not going to create new sannyasis".

What you're doing is clearly 100% to interpret like, Prabhupada said no more sannyasis, but the actual meaning is, we should go on creating sannyasis.

This is opposing, violating and rejecting the clear order of the acarya, Krsna's representative. No ifs and buts.

Second, if ISKCON would have done what you're saying, having matured, then they would have at least done one thing. To give sannyasa only to those who did already some really impressive preaching work like making 10,000 people to become fixed up Vaishnavas, not halfheartedly pseudos.

Sannyasis who are of mature age like 60 when people naturally feel to retire.

Instead we have sannysis like recently interviewed by Caitanya dasa, from whom one again doesnt know what will be the whereabout of them in 5-10-20 years?

Again creating the situation of people being forced to dissociate from such decisions.

And why people are so mad for this sannyasa dress, to collect donations, to get the big money. It's that simple.

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=6416

Present ISKCON is hardly able to properly perform to let's say an auditorium filled up with students, to convince these students that we are not this body but spirit souls. To make them fired up, what I just heard is so true! I have to stop doing things that end below a stupid gravestone.

At least all over Europe very sloppy preaching performance. Preachers have stopped to transport Prabhupada's teaching into present situation, are just repeating like audiotapes and people accept it that way, knowledge which was relevant in the sixties but is today some nostalgia, something to smile benignly.

And it is of course not about rhetoric, it is about actual realization. And this is what Prabhupada meant, when saying stop sannyasa, stop hypocricy, fakery of something what is not actually fully realized.

suchandra · September 20, 2008

Ok, article by Satya das might be not well investigated.

Clarification on Satya dasa's Article

BY: BHAJA GOVINDA DASA

Sep 19, FIJI (SUN) —

I would like to clarify and make corrections to the recent article written by Satya dasa on the Sampradaya Sun, entitled "

Ramai Swami Caught in Exotic Resort

".

Firstly, I would like to let you know why I am writing to clarify the article. As part of the organizing committee, we had a nice sadhu sanga festival in Fiji named Festival of Fiji. This Hare Krishna Festival - Fiji Tour - went for 2 weeks from August 16th till 30th. The festival highlights where installation of Srila Prabhupada murtis, Harinama and preaching around the Fiji island in a travelling bus party to every town and village.

Hosting such a big festival, ISKCON Fiji invited HH Vedavyasapriya Swami, HH Ramai Swami and HH Janananda Goswami to be part of the festival. Around 50 international devotees and many local devotees came to be part of the festival. During this tour devotees camped in different sites, such as schools and centres. Due to the poor facilities at certain camps for international devotees, the local devotees volunteered and have arranged for senior devotees to stay in nearby hotels. So no one went out of their way to have a fun time or relax, but a group of devotees were staying together just for one night.

Local devotees have arranged for HH Ramai Swami Maharaja, HH Janananda Maharaja, Adi Purusa prabhu and Abhay Caran prabhu to stay in the nearby hotels. Actually the Maharajas were not at all interested to stay in the hotel. We insisted that the campsite is not that good and the local devotees are actually doing this to give them the best hosting. That's when they agreed to accept it and stay in the hotel.

The local devotees had no problem in hosting to provide that service. On top of that, both Maharajas spent the whole of their evening preaching and doing kirtans in the camp and then the next early morning they were back at the camp site for the morning programme. We were there and saw how the Maharajas were so busy the whole day and evening doing Harinama, visiting devotee’s houses and then doing evening programme for almost every day during the festival time. So when was there time for them to relax in the best exotic way?

According to the article, it sounds like the writer is writing a report without getting full information. He says that the cost of the resort was US $700 per night, whereas we only paid FJ $350 (US$160) for four persons to stay there. The devotees only stayed there for one evening whereas the article suggests they where there relaxing.

The writer says that it was discovered by New Zealand's Temple President wife, whereas she was not in Fiji for the festival. If she was in Fiji, then we have not seen her on any day of the festival.

You have a question why Maharaja stayed in the elaborate accommodation, then I have an answer. When the local devotees are willing to offer that, then where is the problem? Even it says in the article that Swami was hiding away. Who says that he was hiding? He was there together with so many other devotees for preaching, invited by the local host. If one has not been to ISKCON Fiji, then one does not know how the local culture and service mood outstands others.

I would like to correct this article and another article written by the same author with the title, "

It's Just a Matter of Time

", in which he again criticises HH Ramai Swami and HH Devamrita Swami and his disciple. So my humble request is please stop criticising and circulating emails about criticism.

If you still want to see the positive and preaching mood created by HH Ramai Swami, HH Janananda Goswami and HH Vedavyasapriya Swami in Fiji then please visit these links to open your eyes:

ISKCON Fiji Gallery One

ISKCON Fiji Gallery Two

Hare Krishna!

Your servant,

Bhaja Govinda dasa

(on behalf of the Festival of Fiji organizers)

www.festivaloffiji.com