Myth: Gun Control Reduces Crime

[suchandra]

Prabhupada explained this again and again, without stopping sinful activity the horrible karmas cannot be stopped.

 

 

<param name="movie" value="

&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="

&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[theist]

Prabhupada mentioned that the citizens should be allowed to keep firearms and should also be trained in how to use them.

 

"Of punishments I am the rod of chastisement".-Gita

[suchandra]

 

Prabhupada mentioned that the citizens should be allowed to keep firearms and should also be trained in how to use them.

 

"Of punishments I am the rod of chastisement".-Gita

"Citizens" - there're surely different types of citizens and before allowing all kind of citizens to keep firearms one could ask, who actually is a citizen?

First of all a citizens is someone who lives in peace with all kind of other citizens, including animals. Animals are also citizens. Can I say that I'm a citizen when for example, I'm killing animal citizens? But demanding to keep firearms for my safety? People claim they're citizens because they're first of all born at this place. But animals are also born there, why they are not citizens?

Somehow by killing citizens who're animals like cows, the human citizens lose their status of being recognized as true citizens. First of all human citizens should qualify to be called citizens and respect other citizens like all those poor animals who have the same impulse to live like we humans have, but are mercilessly butchered.

Let's say a meat eating human society has accumulated huge amounts of sinful reactions due all this killing of animals. Some of them start to have a presentiment that bad luck could befall them. Thinking in vedic term, it is true, there will some bad reactions become manifest, but in which form?

Could be that these firearms lying in the kitchen drawers are being used.

In this case wouldn't it be better not to allow firearms?

Guns for school's teachers, see below, could be that when students know that their teachers are carrying firearms with them, they also upgrade and exhibit even more yet unknown destructiveness. Like four students subdue a teacher and kill him with his own weapon?

 

Guns for Texas School's Teachers

 

BBC World News (UK) on 16 Aug 2008

<!--paging_filter-->Teachers in one part of the US state of Texas are to be allowed to carry concealed firearms when the new school term opens this month.

The school superintendent in Harrold district said the move was intended to protect staff and pupils should there be any gun attacks on its sole campus.

Teachers would have to undertake crisis management training first, the superintendent, David Thweatt, said.

 

 

In recent years the US has seen a number of fatal school shootings.

Trustees had approved the policy and parents had not objected, Mr Thweatt said.

"When the federal government started making schools gun-free zones, that's when all of these shootings started," he wrote on the Fort Worth Star-Telegram's web site.

Mr Thweatt said he believed the school's proximity to a large, busy motorway could make it a target.

"If something were to happen here, I'd much rather be calling a parent to tell them that their child is OK because we were able to protect them," Mr Thweatt said.

Texas outlaws the presence of firearms at schools unless individual institutions allow them.

[theist]

Yeah you can make the argument that animals are citizens but that would not fit in with the debate very well now would it. Clearly the word citizen must be taken in context to the debate and the debate concerns humans only.

 

Felons are not allowed to own guns in the USA even though they may have been born here. Certain rights are taken away when misused.

[theist]

Your example of the students killing the teacher is not significant when one thinks of all the crazed students running rampant in the hallways killing scores of students and other teachers and no one being armed in the school to stop them. I am sure you remember Columbine and there are lots of other examples.

[suchandra]

You're surely right, there're lots of insane people. they have now a broadcast series at our local tv, "when women kill", examining background, childhood etc of female prison inmates who serve lifelong jail sentence. Of course the tv basically wants high viewer levels and not necessarily to present real knowledge. But it's true, there're lots of people now who can be called naturally born killers. They presented a case in Zurich, Switzerland, Caroline H., 19 years, she was found guilty of killing two women, a third survived only just and malicious arson in 40 cases. Police was in the dark cause they were looking for a male perpetrator. However, basically present psychology is helpless. They talk about a spiral of violence which increases when using violence as remedy to subdue violence, but ultimately we have to abide what the Vedas say, all this madness developes out of sinful activity. To counteract the symptom but not uprooting the cause will create even more chaos. Like parents who buy a gun, it lies there for years and nobody even thinks of the unused firearm anymore. Then the children find it and you read in the newspaper, 5 year old boy shot his 2 year old sister.

Next - statistics, judge for yourself, let's say you have a war and it is reported 30.000 soldiers have died every year. People would go on street to protest, bring our men back! But this is the figure of people killed by firearms each and every year alone in US, 30.000 gun deaths.

 

<nobr>FIREARM FACTS

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/04/21/weekinreview/20070422_MARSH_GRAPHIC.html

</nobr> <nobr>Guns in the United States - Easy Access to Deadly Weapons</nobr>

<nobr>•</nobr>

<nobr>There are approximately 192 million privately owned firearms in the U.S. - 65 million of</nobr>

<nobr>which are handguns.[1]</nobr>

<nobr>•</nobr>

<nobr>Currently, an estimated 39% of households have a gun, while 24% have a handgun.[2]</nobr>

<nobr>•</nobr>

<nobr>In 1998 alone, licensed firearms dealers sold an estimated 4.4 million guns, 1.7 million of</nobr>

<nobr>which were handguns.[3] Additionally, it is estimated that 1 to 3 million guns change</nobr>

<nobr>hands in the secondary market each year, and many of these sales are not regulated.[4]</nobr>

<nobr>Gun Deaths and Injury - The United States Leads the World in Firearm Violence</nobr>

<nobr>•</nobr>

<nobr>In 2004, 29,569 people in the United States died from firearm-related deaths – 11,624</nobr>

<nobr>(39%) of those were murdered; 16,750 (57%) were suicides; 649 (2.2%) were accidents;</nobr>

<nobr>and in 235 (.8%) the intent was unknown. [5] In comparison, 33,651 Americans were</nobr>

<nobr>killed in the Korean War and 58,193 Americans were killed in the Vietnam War.[6]</nobr>

<nobr>•</nobr>

<nobr>For every firearm fatality in the United States in 2005, there were estimated to be more</nobr>

<nobr>than two non-fatal firearm injuries.[7]</nobr>

<nobr>•</nobr>

<nobr>In 2004, firearms were used to murder 56 people in Australia, 184 people in Canada, 73</nobr>

<nobr>people in England and Wales, 5 people in New Zealand, and 37 people in Sweden.[8] In</nobr>

<nobr>comparison, firearms were used tomurder 11,344 people in the United States.[9]</nobr>

<nobr>•</nobr>

<nobr>In 2005, there were only 143 justifiable homicides by private citizens using handguns in</nobr>

<nobr>the United States.[10]</nobr>

<nobr>Gun Violence - Young Lives Cut Short</nobr>

<nobr>•</nobr>

<nobr>In 2004, nearly 8 children and teenagers, ages 19 and under, were killed with guns</nobr>

<nobr>everyday.[11]</nobr>

<nobr>•</nobr>

<nobr>In 2004, firearm homicide was the second leading cause of injury death for men and</nobr>

<nobr>women 10-24 years of age - second only to motor vehicle crashes.[12]</nobr>

<nobr>•</nobr>

<nobr>In 2004, firearm homicide was the leading cause of death for black males ages 15-34.[13]</nobr>

<nobr>•</nobr>

<nobr>From 1999 through 2004, an average of 916 children and teenagers took their own lives</nobr>

<nobr>with guns each year.[14]</nobr>

<nobr>•</nobr>

<nobr>Each year during 1993 through 1997, an average of 1,621 murderers who had not</nobr>

<nobr>reached their 18th birthdays took someone's life with a gun.[15]</nobr>

<nobr>Guns in the Home - A Greater Risk to Family and Friends</nobr>

<nobr>•</nobr>

<nobr>For every time a gun is used in a home in a legally-justifiable shooting there are 22</nobr>

<nobr>criminal, unintentional, and suicide-related shootings.[16]</nobr>

<nobr>•</nobr>

<nobr>The presence of a gun in the home triples the risk of homicide in the home.[17]</nobr>

<nobr>•</nobr>

<nobr>The presence of a gun in the home increases the risk of suicide fivefold.[18]</nobr>

<nobr>The Economic Costs of Gun Violence - All Americans Pay a High Price</nobr>

<nobr>•</nobr>

<nobr>A study of all direct and indirect costs of gun violence including medical, lost wages, and</nobr>

<nobr>security costs estimates that gun violence costs the nation $100 billion a year.[19]</nobr>

<nobr>•</nobr>

<nobr>The average total cost of one gun crime can be as high as $1.79 million, including</nobr>

<nobr>medical treatment and the prosecution and imprisonment of the shooter.[20]</nobr>

<nobr>•</nobr>

<nobr>At least 80 percent of the economic costs of treating firearm injuries are paid for by</nobr>

<nobr>taxpayer dollars.[21,22]</nobr>

[suchandra]

<table class="lan18" width="97%" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="hei22" valign="bottom" height="25"> About 30,000 people die from gun wounds every year in U.S.

</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#ffffff" height="4">

</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table width="50%" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td height="8">

</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table width="97%" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td width="48%">www.chinaview.cn 2008-03-13 10:37:20

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-03/13/content_7779858.htm

</td> <td class="hui12" width="26%" align="center"> </td> <td class="hui12" width="12%" align="center">Print</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table width="80%" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td height="20">

</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="lt14" width="97%" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="lt14"> BEIJING, March 13 (Xinhua) -- The Information Office of China's State Council issued "The Human Rights Record of the United States in 2007" on Thursday, revealing about 30,000 people die from gun wounds every year in the United States.

The United States has an estimated 250 million privately-owned firearms, the largest number in the world, according to the Chinese report.

"Frequent gun violence poses a serious threat to people's life and property security," said the report.

On April 16, 2007, the Virginia Tech University witnessed the deadliest shooting rampage in modern U.S. history with 33 killed and more than 30 others injured.

The report also cited an Associated Press story on January 29,2007 as saying that about 410,000 Floridians were licensed to carry hidden guns, including 1,400 who had pleaded guilty or no contest to felonies, thanks to loopholes, errors and miscommunication of authorities.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table width="50%" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td height="15">

</td> </tr> </tbody></table> Editor: Bi Mingxin

[theist]

So what point are you trying tp make. You seem to be posted on both sides of the issue. Do you have a personal point of view or am I missing something?

 

We have more than 30,000 ( a figure I am not sure of on the gun issue as I don't take anything coming from China very seriously) dying in automobile accidents every year. Over 100,000 are killed by mistakes by practioners of allopathic medicine in the US alone every year.

 

You can quote all these articles over and over but what is the point you are trying to make suchandra?

[suchandra]

 

So what point are you trying tp make. You seem to be posted on both sides of the issue. Do you have a personal point of view or am I missing something?

 

We have more than 30,000 ( a figure I am not sure of on the gun issue as I don't take anything coming from China very seriously) dying in automobile accidents every year. Over 100,000 are killed by mistakes by practioners of allopathic medicine in the US alone every year.

 

You can quote all these articles over and over but what is the point you are trying to make suchandra?

Forum means not to show up with ready-made points but to work out an approach on the basis what the previous acaryas were teaching - to implement real vedic knowledge into present situation. Could be that therefore forums are under attack to be closed, knowledge should be kept out - we should adopt our way to think and see things from the daily news outlets of the kali chelas.

Not that people should feel brainwashed but rather feel like receiving brain.

I would therefore say - on that basis - people who cannot follow the four regs and are hooked to sinful activity are a safety risk in that sense, that they might abuse a firearm just to feed in their own sinful reactions.

A handgun becoming the outlet of their sinful reactions.

On the other hand could be that material nature considers this as convenient to execute karmic reactions in this way and not having to install other tools for additionally killing all these sinful people every year.

[Kulapavana]

If guns cause crime than mine are defective... Yes, it is a myth that gun control reduces crime - there is no proof of that whatsoever. People vote on such issues with their feet: those who have been victimized go and buy guns. Plain and simple. Recently in New Orleans lots of people bought guns before approaching hurricane. The smart people had them already.

 

Guns are like an insurance policy - you hope you will never have to use them to defend yourself, but you feel better and safer if you have them. All my kids know how to safely handle guns - I consider that part of basic education. We do not glamorize guns - I showed them what a devastating damage they can inflict (fire a .45 caliber hollow point bullet into a plastic jug full of water - the sights and sounds need very little commentary) so that they have respect for firearms.

 

I object to glamorization of violence as seen in the movies and games (entertainment industry) not to gun ownership. The same crowd that insists on having freedom to saturate American culture with glamorous violence insists on gun control - that is a complete paranoia!

[Samia]

People who want to kill will find the means to kill. The largest acts of solo mass murder on record were acts of poison and arson, so should we now ban plants and matches ?

Look at the recent outbreak of edged weapon attacks in England, should they now limit all kitchens to sporks ?

 

Even bringing up any type of weapon is a shell game that trys to take attention away from the true issue which is some peoples desire to kill.

[suchandra]

 

People who want to kill will find the means to kill. The largest acts of solo mass murder on record were acts of poison and arson, so should we now ban plants and matches ?

Look at the recent outbreak of edged weapon attacks in England, should they now limit all kitchens to sporks ?

 

Even bringing up any type of weapon is a shell game that trys to take attention away from the true issue which is some peoples desire to kill.

 

 

People in general argue that God created nature like that, one species killing another species, many species even cannibalistic, chimpanzee apes killing other species of apes. This is of course true when human beings are kept on the level of animals without understanding what is the soul, they always will have the same desire to kill like all the animals. But how to elevate present human society from the animal platform to real human beings who understand things naturally not by enforcement I am rather a follower of Gaurakisor das Babaji who concluded that people of this age cannot be changed. May be some rare exception, but so rare that it is rather insignificant, of no relevance.

[suchandra]

“I still think that if you analyze most of the school shootings, it is not gun control. It is psychotropic drugs at the bottom of it.”

 

-- John Travolta in W, blaming the shootings at Virginia Tech, Columbine and elsewhere on psychiatric drugs.

[AncientMariner]

 

I am rather a follower of Gaurakisor das Babaji who concluded that people of this age cannot be changed. May be some rare exception, but so rare that it is rather insignificant, of no relevance.

 

 

 

I tend to agree with that analysis. Just haven't seen any evidence that people change very much even when there is a big crisis it doesn't take long until things return to business as usual. The only way I ever see people chaning to any large degree is if an avatar showed up or Jesus does end up being real or something like that.

[AncientMariner]

 

If guns cause crime than mine are defective... Yes, it is a myth that gun control reduces crime - there is no proof of that whatsoever. People vote on such issues with their feet: those who have been victimized go and buy guns. Plain and simple. Recently in New Orleans lots of people bought guns before approaching hurricane. The smart people had them already.

 

Guns are like an insurance policy - you hope you will never have to use them to defend yourself, but you feel better and safer if you have them. All my kids know how to safely handle guns - I consider that part of basic education. We do not glamorize guns - I showed them what a devastating damage they can inflict (fire a .45 caliber hollow point bullet into a plastic jug full of water - the sights and sounds need very little commentary) so that they have respect for firearms.

 

I object to glamorization of violence as seen in the movies and games (entertainment industry) not to gun ownership. The same crowd that insists on having freedom to saturate American culture with glamorous violence insists on gun control - that is a complete paranoia!

 

 

Yeah, I view that as a sensible approach to things. To say people should not have any means of self defense in an age when everyone is basically an animal and governments are agents of exploitation and oppression it seems pretty foolish to me. Hopefully one can develop enough favor with Krishna that Krishna will protect you from such people but just in case it is nice to have some guns. I know Jesus said that those who live by the sword die by the sword but I have also read in Bhagavad Gita that anyone who invades someones home or violates someones wife should immediately be killed.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Prabhupada mentioned that the citizens should be allowed to keep firearms and should also be trained in how to use them.

 

"Of punishments I am the rod of chastisement".-Gita

 

 

 

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilised nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" Adolph Hitler, 1935.

 

“In reaching a historic agreement on prohibition of weapons, we made a mighty contribution to delivering a safer and more secure Australian society.” John Howard, 1997, Australian Prime Minister.

 

[Vigraha]

Srila Prabhupada - "We are not advocates of non-violence when there is aggression we must kill them".

 

22 June, 1973

 

Mayapur

 

Dear Kirtanananda Maharaja,

 

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter of 10 June, 1973 and I have carefully studied the contents.

 

After the shooting affair what precaution have you taken? Bharadraja is here and he gave report that the devotees were very frightened. I further understand that the attack was for the second time.

 

Here in Mayapur there are reports of dacoity at least once, twice in a month surrounding our place. So we have now taken two guns under regular license from the government. .

 

So when New Vrindaban has been attacked twice, thrice, why are you not keeping guns?

 

We are not advocates of non-violence when there is aggression we must kill them.

 

So I think you shall immediately arrange for guns and at least 10, 12 men should be trained up so when there is again attack you can properly reply the aggressor.

 

So far as my health is concerned it is improving a little but at the same time another new symptom is developing. Yesterday all of a sudden I have developed eye trouble. They said it is conjunctivitis or something like that. The left eye is swollen and always weeping and I cannot see properly.

 

Syamasundara came here and he also wants me to come to London for talking with some important men. I am thinking of going there by the first week of July but wondering what shall I do if some new symptom of my bad health threatens me in so many ways. But on the whole, if I go to London I think it will not be difficult for me to go to New Vrindaban.

 

Sometimes by the 20th of August I could arrive because Janmastami will take place on the 21st. Just now I cannot promise taking consideration of my bad health. But if I at all go to London there is 90% chance of my going to New Vrindaban.

 

In the meantime I shall be glad to hear from you what defense measures you have taken to protect the life and property of New Vrindaban. This is very important and you must take all steps.

 

Actually the government should have arrested all the gang and punished them properly for their atrocious behavior on unarmed people.

 

Is there an attempt to have the government punish the gang who are well known to your country? We just take measure against occasional attacks by criminals.

 

Hoping this finds you in good health.

 

Your ever well wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami