Pray carefully with your heart. The tragedy caused when GURU falls down

[Svarupa]

 

Pray carefully

with your heart then consider cautiously, testing the 'GURU' that finds you.

 

 

Do not Foolishly look at any Guru as a 'Prabhupada' relacement because of their 'acting' ability to cleverly immitiate him,

as many did, and got cheated, after Prabhupada left this world.

 

 

The tragedy caused when GURU falls down -

 

 

What Happens to the Disciple When the Guru Falls?

 

 

BY: SATYA DASA

 

 

 

Sep 03, MANCHESTER, UK (SUN) —

The following is a letter I recently received from a friend, which I felt was very pertinent to present day ISKCON. I have omitted the devotee's name.

 

 

"To the devotees,

 

 

 

I am an ex-disciple of Harikesa Swami. Recently I have been studying various cases of fallen gurus and have realized that there is little information given, in this regard, from the standpoint of the disciple. Personally I feel it is very important to hear about the impact that losing one's guru has upon us, the disciple.

 

 

 

I recall the day we heard the news that Harikesa was acting inappropriately. Firstly there was complete confusion with a lot of conflicting information. If you had known Harikesa as we knew him at that time, you would understand that his fall down was unbelievable, if not impossible.

 

 

At first I didn't even bother telling my wife. I new that all these false rumors, were just the work of some envious people. I had experienced such rumors before. But as more information came to light I went to my wife with the news. To be completely honest we were both totally devastated.

 

 

My wife just cried, even in front of our children. I didn't really know what to say or how to give her any solace. In the past I had prayed to my beloved Guru Maharaja for help in such difficult times. For days we held onto the hope that somehow or other this was all a big mistake.

 

 

 

Before I accepted Harikesa Swami as my gurudev, I had heard of other gurus falling down. But I felt total conviction when I approached Harikesa. He had such a unique way of presenting Krishna consciousness, with such intelligence and conviction. He could really appeal to young people, pointing out the realities of material illusion and the pitfall of chasing after the opposite sex.

 

 

He could smash you and leave you laughing at your own stupidity. He also inspired all of us to preach, and especially to distribute Srila Prabhupada's transcendental books. Many of his disciples were among the biggest book distributors in the world. Personally I saw Harikesa preach to many people with such patience and compassion.

 

 

To us, his disciples, he was our life and soul. Thus it was very difficult for us to give up that attachment.

 

 

 

But finally we had to accept the facts. That person to whom we had given our hearts, our devotion, prayers, service, and even our money had cheated us. Gradually our grief turned to aguish, frustration and

finally anger

.

 

 

 

In the material world when you discover that someone you trusted has cheated on you, say your partner for example, it can be very bewildering, especially if you feel you haven't done anything wrong in that relationship.

 

 

It really hurts. But when that person is your spiritual farther, your well wishing friend and guide, your worshipable Lord and Master! The pain is felt a million fold.

 

 

 

I remember my children asking why I was taking down the many pictures of Harikesa that hung on our walls. Even my wife's sister noticed. In fact, in time, many of our family and friends would ask about our "Guru". And even today people ask me how I got my name.

 

 

The whole experience has been very difficult to deal with. In the meantime we keep hearing how Harikesa is off spending the money and living it up with his new wife, speaking against Srila Prabhupada and speaking all sorts of deviant philosophies.

 

 

 

Our personal spiritual lives also suffered, as did many of our godbrothers and sisters. My poor wife's especially. She had such implicit faith in our beloved Gurudev. But gradually she starting becoming really despondent and her sadhana slackened. For the first time since we had met (20 Years) she stopped chanting her rounds.

 

 

 

We kept hearing crazy stories of our godbrothers and sisters running off with money, falling down, leaving the movement. Some of them were continuing to worship Harikesa (which really amazed us) and there was a lot of fighting over that.

 

 

 

Finally my wife told me that she didn't want to have anything further to do with the Krishna Consciousness Movement and taking our children with her, she left me.

 

 

She is still a devotee but very compromised in her practices. So now I have to figure out if I'm going to join her and my family in that compromised situation or stay strict and alone. It is difficult to know where to go from here. It is difficult to turn to any spiritual leader with trust.

 

 

 

So that person whom we once turned to for shelter, guidance and inspiration in our spiritual lives has done quit the opposite. Instead of instilling in us faith in Lord Krishna (which is the foremost duty of the spiritual master), he has crushed our faith. I know that he has become like a wedge in the heart of my wife, between her and Lord Krishna.

 

 

 

To be honest my only shelter is Srila Prabhupada, it seems that he is the only person we can really place our complete faith in.

 

 

Your servant," (withheld)

 

 

How are we meant to understand if we are sincere then a bonafide Guru finds us?

Guru? He will find you…

 

 

Does it mean that ALL those who took initiation off nine of the original eleven in ISKCON

were not sincere and therefore deserved to be cheated because we only get what we deserve?

 

 

Can someone answer this please?

 

 

If it is Prabhupada you are attracted to, then it is better to worship his photo than project that love for him onto

some hoo-doo Guru

as many did after Prabhupada left this world,

u

ntil you know for sure the Guru that comes to you,

is bonafide

and simply ALWAYS loves Krsna

.

 

 

Don't just accept the first so-called guru that comes along, find out everything about him and

test them

and

don't

be

foolishly sentimental and naively 'sincere'

as they were in the late 70s, 80s, 90s and even now.

 

 

 

[ranjeetmore]

its official then- frauds hav cme up in iskcon.I was DEVASTATED when i first read about xyz maharaja falling down.

I cudnt believe it then.I gav up chanting too. But i obviously hav full faith in Prabhupada.

I think his disciples hav over hyped just mechanical chanting. where has Smarana dissappeared ?

srila Rupa Gosvami,in B.R.S. Has clearly enlisted Smaranam as THE MOST IMPORTANT element of navdha bhakti.Smaranam is a must.

 

Anand kand Gauranga has declared,''smaran manera praan''

And ''bahu janm kare shravan kirtan,tabhu naahi mile krsna prem dhon.''

Why do v cmpare ourselves to Haridasa thakura ?

lord Caitanya has stated that the devotee needs to CONSTANTLY THINK HIMSELF MEANER THAN A BLADE OF GRASS,only then constant chanting is posible.Such 'feeling' cmes only when the mind is Pure.The mind only gets pure by Smaranam.Attachment to the lord is describd as Krsna consciousnes by prabhupada.

 

Valmiki chanted 'mara mara'.Fine.But which paapatma has the will to carry out the guru's orders ? He obeyed his guru CENT PERCENT.total surender.Thats why he got Prema.

Where is Krsna PREMA in the ritviks ?

They hav not folowd Prabhupada's orders.It was quite simple.If had cmpletely surendered,their heart wud hav been cleansed.Hell,even listening to the voice of a rasik with full surrender cleanses ur heart in one stroke.They had to folow Prabhupadas orders:chant,hear,remember,etc. And propagate.Thats it.If they had,Prabhupada wud hav immediately bestowd krsna prema.The rasik can shout and scold and rebuke while giving prema.His choice.But the clean mind needs to be there ! Or the devotee wil die frm the infinte happiness.

[suchandra]

 

its official then- frauds hav cme up in iskcon.I was DEVASTATED when i first read about xyz maharaja falling down.

I cudnt believe it then.I gav up chanting too. But i obviously hav full faith in Prabhupada.

I think his disciples hav over hyped just mechanical chanting. where has Smarana dissappeared ?

srila Rupa Gosvami,in B.R.S. Has clearly enlisted Smaranam as THE MOST IMPORTANT element of navdha bhakti.Smaranam is a must.

 

Anand kand Gauranga has declared,''smaran manera praan''

And ''bahu janm kare shravan kirtan,tabhu naahi mile krsna prem dhon.''

Why do v cmpare ourselves to Haridasa thakura ?

lord Caitanya has stated that the devotee needs to CONSTANTLY THINK HIMSELF MEANER THAN A BLADE OF GRASS,only then constant chanting is posible.Such 'feeling' cmes only when the mind is Pure.The mind only gets pure by Smaranam.Attachment to the lord is describd as Krsna consciousnes by prabhupada.

 

Valmiki chanted 'mara mara'.Fine.But which paapatma has the will to carry out the guru's orders ? He obeyed his guru CENT PERCENT.total surender.Thats why he got Prema.

Where is Krsna PREMA in the ritviks ?

They hav not folowd Prabhupada's orders.It was quite simple.If had cmpletely surendered,their heart wud hav been cleansed.Hell,even listening to the voice of a rasik with full surrender cleanses ur heart in one stroke.They had to folow Prabhupadas orders:chant,hear,remember,etc. And propagate.Thats it.If they had,Prabhupada wud hav immediately bestowd krsna prema.The rasik can shout and scold and rebuke while giving prema.His choice.But the clean mind needs to be there ! Or the devotee wil die frm the infinte happiness.

 

This is a very materialistic view. Let's say your spiritual master leaves this world early at an age of only 35, you still would go on sticking to this guru. Same when people insist upon a system to appoint spiritual masters who fall down.

Basically all members of this forum insist upon that,

 

a) you need a living guru and

 

b) although we cannot know if such a guru can fall down, we have to accept a living guru.

 

If this is present culture and what people strongly believe they have to stick to such a guru even when he falls down.

When taking initiation from a guru one has to stick to this whatever might be happening with some gurus. If he falls down they should consider him as deceased and worship his pic within this time when he was not fallen.

 

It should be forbidden that people who have accepted a fallen guru can take initiation from some one else. This is not vedic culture. Vedic culture is that you have to stick to a decision. Just like marriage, divorce is forbidden in vedic culture. Your husband/wife is getting sick or indebted, you cannot divorce.

 

This might sound radical but the scenario of disciples feeling cheated is worse and the reputation of Vaishnavism is killed.

Just like divorced couples, things only get worse and their children really spoiled.

 

Present gurus anyway only teach what is written in Prabhupada's books and people also don't read anything else except Prabhupada books. This won't change.

Even the karmis steal so many things from Prabhupada's books, put it into their novelles and voila, it becomes a bestseller.

 

In sum if people read only Prabhupada books and speak only what is stated in Prabhupada books, why all this huge talk about fallen gurus?

Fact is that present Vaishnavas are a type of people who protest without end when not having a living guru.

The law should be therefore that once you took initiation from a living guru you cannot change this anymore.

Worship his pic of that time when he was not fallen and go on reading Prabhupada's books.

 

So many great acaryas even Lord Caitanya Himself left this world at an early age, but did the disciples say, no, I want a new guru, a living guru?

[Svarupa]

 

This is a very materialistic view. Let's say your spiritual master leaves this world early at an age of only 35, you still would go on sticking to this guru. Same when people insist upon a system to appoint spiritual masters who fall down.

Basically all members of this forum insist upon that,

 

a) you need a living guru and

 

b) although we cannot know if such a guru can fall down, we have to accept a living guru.

 

If this is present culture and what people strongly believe they have to stick to such a guru even when he falls down.

When taking initiation from a guru one has to stick to this whatever might be happening with some gurus. If he falls down they should consider him as deceased and worship his pic within this time when he was not fallen.

 

It should be forbidden that people who have accepted a fallen guru can take initiation from some one else. This is not vedic culture. Vedic culture is that you have to stick to a decision. Just like marriage, divorce is forbidden in vedic culture. Your husband/wife is getting sick or indebted, you cannot divorce.

 

This might sound radical but the scenario of disciples feeling cheated is worse and the reputation of Vaishnavism is killed.

Just like divorced couples, things only get worse and their children really spoiled.

 

Present gurus anyway only teach what is written in Prabhupada's books and people also don't read anything else except Prabhupada books. This won't change.

Even the karmis steal so many things from Prabhupada's books, put it into their novelles and voila, it becomes a bestseller.

 

In sum if people read only Prabhupada books and speak only what is stated in Prabhupada books, why all this huge talk about fallen gurus?

Fact is that present Vaishnavas are a type of people who protest without end when not having a living guru.

The law should be therefore that once you took initiation from a living guru you cannot change this anymore.

Worship his pic of that time when he was not fallen and go on reading Prabhupada's books.

 

So many great acaryas even Lord Caitanya Himself left this world at an early age, but did the disciples say, no, I want a new guru, a living guru?

 

nice relization prabhu however, as we have seen in ISKCON, many men are not qualified to be husbands because of abuse and treating women as sex objects. The point is, we are not in a Vedic culture, even ISKCON is aspiring to achieve that level.

 

So in this case, a women SHOULD deviorce such an abusive husband. As far as Gurus are concernrd, I think it is silly to woship a pic of, lets say, Bhavananda ot Jayatirtha, just worship Prabhupada and seek advanced devotees that later on you can choose to take re-intiation off.

 

However, the link to the parampara is there anway even if one does not take re-intiation. As you say, all their teachings (when they are not in maya or on LSD) is from Prabhupada anyway.

[suchandra]

 

nice relization prabhu however, as we have seen in ISKCON, many men are not qualified to be husbands because of abuse and treating women as sex objects. The point is, we are not in a Vedic culture, even ISKCON is aspiring to achieve that level.

 

So in this case, a women SHOULD deviorce such an abusive husband. As far as Gurus are concernrd, I think it is silly to woship a pic of, lets say, Bhavananda ot Jayatirtha, just worship Prabhupada and seek advanced devotees that later on you can choose to take re-intiation off.

 

However, the link to the parampara is there anway even if one does not take re-intiation. As you say, all their teachings (when they are not in maya or on LSD) is from Prabhupada anyway.

If ISKCON attracts people who treat women as sex objects, even gives such people positions and marries such people according vedic tradition to matajis, then even more!

 

This is in no way acceptable and no excuse - ISKCON is aspiring to achieve that level..There're lots of monogamous animal species who can manage to peacefully live with their partner.

 

If a Vaishnava society cannot manage householder life what so many animals can accomplish perfectly, then there's no excuse.

If they are too foolish to manage the vow of marriage then they have to be told to stop offering marriage. Withdraw the authority to teach household life.

Why silly - isn't it rather silly to appoint unqualified spiritual masters?

Now since this system is fully established and authorized by the GBC, tons of resolutions being passed that ISKCON doesn't assume liability in case a guru falls down, this is what has to be enforced without compromise.

 

No re-initiation - and you have to go on to consider your guru as your guru however fallen he might be till the rest of your life. This is the vedic system and the meaning of diksa. There is no such thing as call off the deal.

[mahak]

Then there is no question of ones guru falling down. Because the teachings of Prabhupada include a warning against one accepting a guru suddenly as an act of fanaticism, not spiritual quest. Suddenly means because of convention, peer pressure, laziness, personality cultism, etc.

 

This has nothing to do with the so-called rtvik ideas of never being another guru, because there may be very many here right now. But gurus who fall down are not genuine, and disciples who are broken-hearted because their "guru" fell down did not have an authentic guru, therefore, "re-initiation is not a valid consideration. Ther are no bad gurus, no fallen gurus, there are only GENUINE gurus. Study second chapter of science of self realization and follow Prabhupada, then the heart will not be broken because of one's own foolishness or fanaticism.

 

Hare Krsna, mahaksadasa

[suchandra]

 

Study second chapter of science of self realization and follow Prabhupada, then the heart will not be broken because of one's own foolishness or fanaticism.

 

Hare Krsna, mahaksadasa

 

Since they established present system of absolutism it has to be executed in full consequence. Once having received initiation there is no way back.

Just like a doctors practice. Once opened it has to be accepted as fully competent offer of medical service. Everything else would be criminal hodge podge.

[bija]

 

Shri Krishna Bhajanamrta

By Shrila

NARAHARI SARKARA THAKUR - click here

Translated by Bhanu Swami

Sanskrit/Bengali Editing by: Shri Subhag Swami

“Narahari was the fortieth (branch of the Chaitanya tree).”

PURPORT BY Shrila Prabhupada

“Narahari das Sarkara was a very famous devotee. Locan das Thakur, the elaborated author of Chaitanya-mangala, was his disciple. In Chaitanya-mangala it is stated that Shri Gadadhara das and Narahari Sarkara were extremely dear to Shri Chaitanya Mahparabhu. .”

Shri Chaitanya-Charitamrita

Adi-Lila Chapter 10

INTRODUCTION

The Shri Krishna Bhajanamrta is the original work of Shri Narahari Sarkara Thakur, the famous devotee who offered Lord Chaitanya the personal service of fanning with camara. The Shri Krishna Bhajanamrtam is possibly the only known book which deals with practical aspects of dealings between disciples and guru including when the guru falls down. Therefore Shri Krishna Bhajanamrta is very timely for better understanding the authorized manner in which to deal with sensitive issues regarding initiating gurus and siksa gurus. H.H. Bhakti Caru Swami informed me of the existence of this book and without his encouragement we would not have endeavored to locate it.

The Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust, which Shrila Prabhupada founded for preserving the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya culture and heritage, in addition to promoting its unity and mutual cooperation, has been researching lost shrines and holy places for nearly a decade. The newest project is to locate lost or out of print literatures in original language and to publish reference copies for use of sadhus and scholars around the world. The Shri Krishna Bhajanamrta is the first book located in this new project.

The Shri Krishna Bhajanamrta was only printed once as far as is known in the Bengali year 1309, which brings it to the late 19th century. Only 95 copies were printed and has therefore been out of print and unavailable for quite some time; but with research the last known copy was located at Shri Khanda, the birthplace of Shri Narahari Thakur, in torn and blackened condition; even the threads in the binding had turned to dust. By Lord Chaitanya’s mercy the book was loaned to the B.S.C.T. for republishing and translation.

The Shri Krishna Bhajanamrtam is 64 pages long, but only the first 16 pages deal with guru-tattva. The remaining part of the book deals with Sambandha-tattva in regard to Lord Krishna’s expansions, energies, demigods, etc. Since ISKCON, at present specifically needs sastric direction in regard to some aspects of guru-tattva the verses 27-67, which deal specifically with the subject matter of guru-tattva and Vaishnava relationships are being presented.

Although the first 19 verses simply form the introduction to the book, they are also included, since they help the reader to get a clearer understanding of the background to it and Shri Narahari Thakur’s purpose in writing Shri Krishna Bhajanamrtam. Verses 19-26 give the explanation of topics which the book covers, other than guru-tattva, so they are not included.

Verse 1

I offer my respectful obeisances to that incarnation of Godhead who has distributed more unlimited causeless mercy than any other Avatar. He is the total Lord of my life—Shri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

Verse 2

I offer my respectful obeisances to Shri Sukadeva Goswami who is like the ripened fruit of the trees of devotional service. He is eternally relishing in the transcendental mellows in devotional service.

Verse 3 & 4

During this Kali Yuga, when the time of Lord Shri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Lord Shri Nitayananda Prabhu’s transcendental pastimes become unmanifest. Their lordships become the object of transcendental research and discussion. At that time all level of devotees including uttama adhikary, madhhyama adhikary, and kanistha adhikary shall always be in anxiety and it will be at all times. They shall almost feel uncertainty in their hearts regarding the correct understanding of the eternal truths of devotional service.

Verse 5 & 6

I offer my respectful obeisances in full surrender to the thousands and thousands of previous Vaishnavas and particularly to those paramahamsas, perfect souls, who meditate constantly in pure loving devotion on the lotus feet of Lord Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and by His mercy are studying all of the Vedic literature in regard to devotional service. Following in the footsteps of these great spiritual authorities I shall explain the clear transparent conclusions of the scriptures in their concise, condensed form, with some detailed explanations.

Verse 7

I, Narahari Das, consider myself to be a fool. Therefore, how will I be able to explain this most difficult subject matter on the absolute conclusions of the sastra? Will the learned Vaishnavas bless my deliberations that they may not be false or deviate from the authorized conclusions of the sastra in any respect.

Verse 8

In any case, whether someone has all good qualities or whether one has no good qualities, whether one is a fool or whether one is a great pandit; who is there in this material world who is able to completely understand pure devotional service to Krishna.

Verse 9

In my sleep while dreaming I said the above words. While dreaming I was meditating upon the words of previous authorities and great Vaishnava acaryas and their conclusions on the authorized sastra in regard to pure devotional service. While thus engaged in my dream suddenly my heart became filled with spiritual bliss as if I had entered and taken shelter of an ocean of transcendental nectar.

Verse 10 & 11

Just at that time Lord Shri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu appeared holding the hand of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya. Lord Chaitanya said, “sadhu, sadhu.” As lord Chaitanya said these words he was laughing and he came and stood before me saying, “What our have said is certainly true. Now awaken and arise.” Saying these words again and again Lord Chaitanya disappeared from my vision.

Verse 12

Thereafter, meditating on the lotus feet of Lord Shri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu who is known as Gaurahari, I got up from my bed and I was feeling great separation being deprived of his transcendental association, I considered my unqualified self blessed by Lord Chaitanya’s causeless mercy upon me.

Verse 13

Feeling myself blessed by the mercy of lord Shri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and remembering His merciful words, while being absorbed in the remembrance if His transcendental glories I was immersed in an ocean of transcendental bliss. At that time I could not understand my actual condition.

Verse 14

On the strength of the mercy of Lord Shri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu I have decided to write something. Using my intelligence I have considered the truth of devotional service and although considering myself a fool I have written in my own hand, sometimes in verse and sometimes in prose, this supremely auspicious “Bhajanamrta.”

Verse 15

In this Kali Yuga the great paramahamsa perfect devotees who have descended to this universe in order to purify it have blessed me with their remnants which I have accepted. As I am strictly following in the footsteps of these liberated souls this work is completely purified with their blessings.

Verse 16

At the outset of this work my humble prayer is that all pure, non-envious devotees of Lord Shri Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead may listen to these authorized words as I have heard them from the great Vaishnava authorities of the disciplic succession.

Verse 17

It is well known from the authorized Vedic literatures that in this Kali Yuga, through the power of the holy name of Lord Shri Krishna, all Vaishnavas are equal and qualitatively noon-different from Lord Krishna. However, it is seen that amongst the Vaishnavas that sometimes in some places some Vaishnavas appear greater or lesser. In such cases how is it to be understood?

Verse 18

Amongst all of the assembled Vaishnavas there is the initiating guru and the instructing guru. In regard to them what type of behavior is authorized.?

Verse 19-27

not included (see introduction)

[bija]

Verse 28

Now listen to the authorized conclusions of the previous authorities.

Verse 29

It is certainly true that all Vaishnavas are on the same transcendental platform. However, although amongst Vaishnavas there may be a difference in spiritual strength, how will the less intelligent materially attached sense-gratifiers, who become afraid justly seeing the horrifying appearance of beggar mendicants, ascertain the actual strength of a saintly person? Since they cannot distinguish between a lesser spiritual force and a greater spiritual force, they do not know how to deal appropriately with different saintly persons. Therefore they treat every one the same. Since they don’t know how to distinguish the specific character of greater spiritual personalities from lesser spiritual personalities rather than risk their destruction for neglecting a potentially spiritual personality they treat everyone on the same level.

Verse 30

However all those practicing Vaishnavas progressing on the path of devotional service, who have heard and understood the conclusion of the revealed sastras and are therefore endowed with special intelligence are able to recognize who is more spiritually powerful and who is less spiritually powerful. Those who are expert in the science of devotional service can understand in whose body what quantity of Krishna’s spiritual potency is present. Being able to understand who has less spiritual potency and who has more spiritual potency, they offer special treatment considering the scriptural injunctions in this regard.

Verse 31

If one can distinguish between the greater or lesser spiritual strength of a person but does not accordingly offer respect, then that person shall be held guilty for that offense.

Verse 32

For the reason mentioned before, if two Vaishnavas come at the same time, one of greater strength, one of lesser spiritual strength, first one has to offer respect to the Vaishnava of greater strength then offer to the Vaishnava of lesser strength.

Verse 33

Should the respect due to a Vaishnava of greater strength or to a Vaishnava of lesser strength be offered at the same level if they come at a different time? Equal respect should not be offered to both even if they are not present at the same time.

Verse 34

If a volcano type of fire is burning, the wise man will not first put out.......first one has to be able to extinguish the volcano fire then a candle of deep light can easily be extinguished. Similarly if one is able to appropriately receive and respect Vaishnavas possessed of great spiritual force to their satisfaction, then on shall easily be able to satisfy those Vaishnavas of lesser potency.

Verse 35

If a person of small spiritual advancement sees a great devotee endowed with considerable spiritual potency being worshipped and given respect, should the less advanced person become angry upon seeing this? For this offence against the more advanced person’s spiritual position the foolish offender will ruin whatever spiritual potency he possesses. Subsequently, in the future, such angry persons simply plan how they can punish those who have participated in such worship.

Verse 36

Those who are well-versed in all of these matters, having heard properly from authorities, those Vaishnavas who are enthusiastically engaged in worshipping the Supreme Personality of Godhead and all those transcendentalists who are practicing the spiritual path, know the truths in regard to these matters. However, in spite of knowing these truths, if they do not appropriately offer worship, then they will be spiritually ruined. However, if they consider the respective spiritual strength or lack of strength and accordingly offers respect then they will certainly advance in Krishna Consciousness.

Verse 37

For those who take shelter of the great Sumeru mountain what can others do to harm them? Others should offer them worship as devotees with respect and service.

Verse 38

One should never engage in criticizing a Vaishnava or neglecting a Vaishnava even in joking. For Vaishnavas are so glorious that there is nothing to regret even if one sacrifices ones life for their benefit.

Verse 39

No one should find fault with a Vaishnava for his activities or behavior. What person is free from the influence of Kali Yuga or has perfect pure behavior and action?

Verse 40

Because the Vaishnava devotees of the Lord are always meditating on Lord Shri Krishna the contamination of sinful activities cannot come upon them. Because a Vaishnava’s body has the fire of Krishna Consciousness within it, even if they are fallen, this fire of Krishna Consciousness will burn up to ashes any material contamination.

Verse 41

However, those who are not able to understand the respective levels of spiritual potency may take shelter of this example. As in the Ganges there are many waves, and some of these waves are larger then other waves but all of the waves are considered to be sacred, one wave being not considered more holy than another wave, similarly, all types of Vaishnavas, those who are spiritually strong and those who are not so strong, can be offered equal worship. Considering this perspective in such circumstances that can be accepted as perfect worship. Here completes the conclusion in this regard.

Verse 42

All Vaishnavas are considered as guru or spiritual master.

Verse 43

Amongst all of the Vaishnavas the initiating guru (diksa-guru) and instructing guru (siksa-guru) are special.

[bija]

Verse 44

It is proper to offer these two special respect.

Verse 45

Amongst all of the other spiritual masters these two (diksa-guru and siksa-guru) spiritual masters’ orders are to be followed.

Verse 46

If one’s initiating spiritual master and instructing spiritual master are of small spiritual potency, or in other words, if they do not poses a special power to give spiritual instruction on worship for devotional service, then one may listen from the mouth of other great advanced Vaishnavas and understand the special instructions. However, thereafter, the disciple must go t his spiritual master for his confirmation or instructions.

Verse 47

One should not disobey the order of the spiritual master.

Verse 48

Just as a faithful son may go out for earning money and subsequently brings to his father the wealth gained, later the son may ask for some allowance from the father and whatever he receives form the father he is entitled to spend of his own enjoyment. Similarly, a disciple may hear fome instructions from another advanced Vaishnava but after gaining that good instruction he must bring it and present it to his won spiritual master. After presenting them, he should hear the same teachings ganga from his spiritual master with appropriate instructions.

Verse 49

If the son earns money but does not give it to the father and instead, directly enjoys the wealth, he is considered to be a fallen son and a sinful person. Similarly a disciple who listens to the words of other Vaishnavas, even if their instructions are proper and true, but does not reconfirm these teachings with his own spiritual master and instead directly personally accepts these instructions, is considered a bad disciple and a sinner.

Verse 50

For this reason, in all circumstances all Vaishnava are offered respect like of offers respect to one’s spiritual master. However, with body, mind and words one serves one’s own spiritual master.

Verse 51

Even if the performance of ones’s devotional activities one has disobeyed the spiritual master, still one should not give him up, but should remain faithfully with him, because all authorities say that the shelter of one’s own spiritual master is best and perfect (even if another spiritual master is more powerful).

Verse 52

Kindly understand this example:

Just as one respects one’s father as a guru, his (the father’s) older and younger brothers are also similarly respected, but nonetheless, the father is worthy of the most respect. Not withstanding the above, if the father’s guru, even if he is family related, comes,one should double the respect, as he is the spiritual father of the father, or the guru of the guru. He is offered twice the puja or respect.

This behavior if recognized as appropriate by all authorities.

Verse 53

Just as if, during daily life, the brothers (older or younger) of the father criticize him, still one takes shelter of one’s father, similarly, one remains under the shelter of one’s own spiritual master, even if he is criticized by his older or younger god brothers. Just as one depends upon one’s father for one’s livelihood, one must depend upon the strength of the spiritual master for advancing in devotional service.

Verse 54

If a father or spiritual master or husband are not possessed of outstanding qualities even then they are always worshipable.

Verse 55

Taking shelter of the above-mentioned persons one may even disagree with those senior to oneself.

Verse 56

In this world, what kind of person is there who can remain alive at the expense of his father’s or guru’s defamation or disgrace?

Verse 57

Everyone considers that if their spiritual master is very powerful then he himself is powerful but that if his spiritual master is less powerful, then he is, therefore weaker, and according to the attitude of the spiritual master the disciple gains the same attributes. Those disciples who are intelligent can understand the desires of the spiritual master directly through their intelligence. Other disciples, two are less intelligent understand by directly hearing instructions from the spiritual master. These activities are being practiced since time immemorial.

Verse 58

Learned Vaishnava authorities say that these instructions are the perfection of religiosity.

Verse 59

If the spiritual master commits a wrongful act breaking Vaishnava relative principles then in that case one should in a solitary place, confront him for his rectification using logic and appropriate conclusions from sadhu, sastra and guru references, but one is not to give him up.

Verse 60

One should not be hesitant or fearful because one is confronting or challenging a spiritual master.

“For it has been prescribed that one must appropriately discipline even a spiritual master who is:

*bewildered about what he should or shouldn’t do;

*who is inexperienced or ignorant:

*who has deviated from the Krishna conscious path;

*or if he is bewildered by false pride.”

Verse 61

This statement of the revealed scriptures is applicable at all times and under all circumstances.

Verse 62

The natural behavior of the Vaishnava devotees is to take complete refuge of Lord Shri Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, accepting Him as their principal and real shelter. The very life of the Vaishnava devotees of the Lord is singing the glories or Lord Shri Krishna, describing and expanding the fame of Lord Shri Krishna, and discussing the nectar of His transcendental pastimes.

Verse 63

The authorized course of action is to continue, as before, with one’s prescribed devotional service. One may take guidance through or instructions from the Vaishnavas, as all Vaishnavas are considered guru or “spiritual master,” or one may use one’s own intelligence, duly considering the relevant instructions from sadhu, sastra and guru. In all cases one should continue in one’s devotional service.

Verse 64

However, if the spiritual master:

*acts envious towards ‘isvarebrantah’, that which is connected with the Supreme;

*is bewildered regarding the Supreme Personality of Godhead;

*is averse to expanding the fame of Lord Krishna;

*personally refuses to accept hearing or chanting about the glorious pastimes of Lord Shri Krishna;

*has become totally bewildered, listening to the false praise of ignorant persons and day by day is more materially contaminated and fallen

then the spiritual master must be renounced.

Verse 65

Under those circumstances one should not doubt, “How can I give up my spiritual master?” With a strong desire for achieving spontaneous devotional service and attaining the lotus feet of Lord Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, a devotee accepts the shelter of a spiritual master, if that spiritual master takes on “asuric” qualities or a demoniac mentality then it is one’s duty to reject such a demon “asura” guru and in his place accept a Krishna conscious spiritual master and worship him.

Verse 66

By taking shelter of the strength of the Krishna conscious spiritual master’s devotional service the ill effects or contamination of the demoniac previous spiritual master is counteracted and destroyed. These activities are recommended by all Vaishnava authorities as the authorized conclusions of the sastra.

Verse 67

During the pastimes of Lord Shri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu there have been many practical examples of the above.

This concludes the deliberation and final conclusions of sadhu , sastra on guru on the spiritual master and related matters.

END

[CCC]

Srila Prabhupada is responsible for the situation in Iskcon.

 

Gurus should not be worshipped at all. One must have respect for them, thats all.

 

Prabhupada gave us a ritvik initiation system, that mean, He is the center the acarya, he must be worshipped and all others are his priest, just representative.

 

The flaw in this is that no one follow his instrucction but all the "eleven" wanted to imitate Srila Prabhupada, they wanted to be worshipped and so on.

 

Why Srila Prabhupada is responsible in this matter?

because He didn't teach with his example, no one in the parampara was treated like Srila Prabhupada, He say that the guru is at the same level as god an dshould be worshipped, in all the gaudiya vaisnava no one was worshipped at the level of like Srila Prabhupada, NO ONE!!

 

Srila Prabhupada could be more humble and not being worshipped, today no one would be eager to be guru for adoration and so on.

 

(Sorry for my english but my dicctionary is not at hand)

[Svarupa]

 

Verse 59

If the spiritual master commits a wrongful act breaking Vaishnava relative principles then in that case one should in a solitary place, confront him for his rectification using logic and appropriate conclusions from sadhu, sastra and guru references, but one is not to give him up.

 

However, if the spiritual master:

*acts envious towards ‘isvarebrantah’, that which is connected with the Supreme;

*is bewildered regarding the Supreme Personality of Godhead;

*is averse to expanding the fame of Lord Krishna;

*personally refuses to accept hearing or chanting about the glorious pastimes of Lord Shri Krishna;

*has become totally bewildered, listening to the false praise of ignorant persons and day by day is more materially contaminated and fallen then the spiritual master must be renounced.

 

Verse 65

Under those circumstances one should not doubt, “How can I give up my spiritual master?” With a strong desire for achieving spontaneous devotional service and attaining the lotus feet of Lord Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, a devotee accepts the shelter of a spiritual master, if that spiritual master takes on “asuric” qualities or a demoniac mentality then it is one’s duty to reject such a demon “asura” guru and in his place accept a Krishna conscious spiritual master and worship him.

 

Verse 66

By taking shelter of the strength of the Krishna conscious spiritual master’s devotional service the ill effects or contamination of the demoniac previous spiritual master is counteracted and destroyed. These activities are recommended by all Vaishnava authorities as the authorized conclusions of the sastra.

Follow from the heart with knowledge and devotion and not sentiment.

[Laulyam]

Excerpts from Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja's book 'Pariprasna.' Devotee: What if someone tries to serve his guru in this way and then later on the guru falls down?Gaura Govinda Swami: That's a bogus guru, nor a bona fide guru.Devotee: In that case one's surrender and service count for nothing?Gaura Govinda Swami: Nothing, zero! They are of no value, because that guru was not bona fide, he was a hypocrite, a follower of Kali, only outwardly posing as a Vaisnava guru.You should be careful before accepting a guru. That's your responsibility. Don't be superfluous. You should be very serious and don't follow gaddalika-srota-nyaya. "Gaddalika" means a flock of sheep. Sheep move in a flock and one is at the head, leading. If that sheep jumps into a ditch the whole flock will jump into a ditch. They never think, "Why should we jump into a ditch?" If the leader jumps, they think, "That is a nice path. We should also go that way." You should use your intelligence. Don't follow this sheep logic. That is your responsibility. You should desire to get Krsna. That is the perfection of human life.This morning I talked about how consciousness should be fully blossomed, cent percent purna-vikacita-cetana. That is the perfection of human life. If someone can get Krsna then he'll have obtained supreme perfection. That means cent percent Krsna. Not twenty-five percent, thirty percent or fifty percent Krsna. No! Cent percent Krsna. Who can give cent percent Krsna? Only the person who has it can give. If someone has only twenty -five percent Krsna, how can he give you cent percent Krsna? He doesn't have the balance in his account. This is your responsibility. You should find such a person and don't follow this gaddalika-srota-nyaya." Oh, everyone is accepting so and so as a paramahamsa, maha-bhagavata. Everyone says so." Alright, don't think anything, fall into the ditch. Don't Find FaultDevotee: It's very easy to understand this point after the fact. But there were many supposedly quite advanced devotees...Gaura Govinda Swami: Don't find fault with others. Find fault with yourself. See good in others. See bad in yourself. You have committed a mistake; therefore such a thing has happened. The caitya-guru, Paramatma, Krsna, He knows your heart. He knows what you are whispering in your heart. You cannot cheat Him. Outwardly you may be speaking very sweet from the lips. Your external dealings may be very nice. But inside, don't be hypocrite. Be a simple, natural vaisnava. You have no simplicity in your heart. Duplicity, pretentiousness, crookedness, politics- so many nasty things are there in you heart. You follow this gaddilika-srota-nyaya logic. Krsna as caitya-guru, Paramatma, knows you are not serious. You should be thinking, "How can I get a bona fide guru? The aim of my life is to get Krsna, cent percent Krsna." You should be crying in your heart. Krsna will know, "Yes, this soul is crying for Me." This crying is most important. In the Adi Purana Krsna had said, "rudanti mama samvidhau.Rudanti" means crying. Aham parikartah- One who cries for Me from the core of his heart purchases Me. Have you ever cried for this? Therefore I say you are not serious. You are superfluous. You are just following this gaddalika-srota-nyaya. That is your mistake. Why do you find fault with others? Krsna knows, "Oh this fellow wants a cheater, not a teacher." Therefore Krsna provides a cheater. You should admit that it is your bad karma, your mistake. Then repent and cry. Cry before Krsna, before Mahaprabhu. Cry form the core of your heart so They'll shower Their mercy on you. Then you'll never be cheated. This is the process. It is a most important and serious thing. This is a personal relationship and a personal responsibility. It is not the responsibility of anyone else. You alone are responsible for your activity. Why should someone else be responsible? It is up to you to accept a bona fide guru, not a bogus guru; to get cent percent Krsna; to make your life successful, not his life, or that life, or anybody else's life. This is a very deep confidential philosophy, try to understand it.Guru DarsanaGaura Govinda Swami: One thing is important: We don't' know who is a real, bona fide guru. Can you know? Can you measure? Can you see with your material vision? You can't see. You can't measure him. Krsna is adhoksaja. He cannot be measured by the defective material senses. Similarly, His true representative the bona fide guru, the dear devotee who is very intimate and very confidential, cannot be measured by your defective senses. You cannot see him with your material vision. You can only see the outward body of flesh, bones, marrow, blood, and urine. In the 11th Canto Krsna says that the guru acarya is as good as He Himself. acarya-mam vijaniyannavamanyeta karhicitna martya-buddhyasuyetasarva-deva-mayo guruhOne should know the acarya as Myself and never disrespect him in any way.One should not envy him, thinking him to be an ordinary man, for he is the representative of all the demigods. (Bhag. 11.17.27)In addition, in Guruvastaka (Verse 7) we chant:saksad-dharitvena samastra-sastrair uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhih kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya vande guroh sri-caranaravindamEvery day you sing saksad-dhari, and Krsna says the same thing: acaryam mam vijnaniyan-"He is as good as Myself." Na martya-buddhyasuyeta-"Don't think of him as an ordinary mortal human being." Sarva-deva mayo guruh- "No, all the demigods are there in him."This is guru tattva. How can you see such a guru with your material vision? As you cannot see Krsna with material vision, you cannot see the guru with material vision. You will only see the outward thing, which is not guru. Only if the guru showers his mercy on you can you be endowed with the vision to see his true form. By the mercy of guru you can see guru, otherwise you cannot see.This vision is only obtained by crying and crying and crying before Krsna: "Oh Krsna, I don't know who is your real representative who can deliver You to me cent percent. I want you cent percent, O Krsna." If you cry before Krsna then Krsna will make an arrangement. He is there in the heart as Paramatma. He will understand, "Now he's crying for Me, so I must help him." He will make an arrangement that you meet a bona fide guru, a genuine representative of Krsna. Otherwise it is not possible. This is the only process.But in our case we try to measure everything. We measure the Lord. We measure the guru. We try to see the Lord with our vision, with our defective senses. Therefore our acaryas and sastras say that the guru is the seer, drasta, and you should put yourself in the position as the object to be seen, drsta. It is very difficult to understand this point because almost everyone thinks just in the reverse. You think you are the seer and the Lord or guru are drsta, the objects to be seen. No! It is the complete opposite. The Lord is the seer and the guru is the seer. You are not the seer. You are the object to be seen by guru or seen by the Lord. Do you understand? This is a very deep philosophy.Cry For GuruWhat I am saying is from the previous acaryas. Nothing is mine, not a single letter. I follow the path the acaryas have shown. I have done that in my life and therefore I got my guru. That is my experience. Following what our acaryas say, what sastra says, sadhu-sastra-guru-this is the process. But you have never followed it. I think you cannot understand it clearly. Try! It is a simple thing. You cry before Krsna, cry before Mahaprabhu, "Please help me, please help me, please help me!" Krsna is the heart and can understand, "Oh, now he is crying." He will help you. He will make arrangements that you can get a bona fide guru who is Krsna's true representative, a confidential, intimate associate if the Lord-and then your life will be successful. Don't be desperate. There is no question of despondency on this path. There is no pessimism here. It is all optimism. Mahaprabhu is so merciful-maha-vadanyaya avatara. Srila Kaviraja Goswami in Caitanya Caritamrta has used the word adbhuta, wonderful three times; adbhuta-karunya, adbhuta-vadanya, adbhuta-audara, wonderfully munificent, wonderfully merciful, wonderfully magnanimous. This is Sriman Mahaprabhu. Cry before Him. Cry before Krsna to shower His mercy on you. It is the only thing required. Don't try to measure Krsna or His representative the guru with your defective senses. You will only be cheated. You should have complete, unflinching faith in Mahaprabhu, Krsna and sadhu. There is no other way. Confirmation NeededDevotee: How do we discern between the prompting of Paramatma and the ramblings of our mind?Gaura Govinda Swami: Krsna is there in your heart as Paramatma, caitya guru. He is your friend. The Upanisadas say, dva suparna sayuja sakhayah- Your friend the Supersoul prompts, but you cannot hear Him. A liberated soul can hear, but a conditioned soul cannot. A conditioned soul only hears the promptings of maya. If, within and without, that prompting in confirmed by sadhu and sastra, then it is all right. Confirmation is needed. Then you can understand, "Yes, that prompting was inside me. Now the same thing has come out from the lips of sadhu." If sastra says the same thing then it is confirmed, otherwise not. A conditioned soul cannot hear what the Paramatma prompts. Only a liberated soul can hear. Though He prompts, you cannot hear because you heart is filled with dirt. Clear the contamination. Cleansed of the dirt, you heart will be purified. Then you can hear, otherwise not. How will you hear with a filthy heart?Devotee: Sometimes we cry for something and we get some help. But then we become again satisfied in life.Gaura Govinda Swami: There should always be crying. Then we will always get help. Not that you should say, "Oh, now I have gotten, finished." There should always be crying, "I cannot get, I cannot get, I cannot get anything!"Mahaprabhu was always crying. He has taught us to cry: "Hari Hari bolite nayane ba'be nira"- uttering the name of Hari and shedding tears.Devotee: You explained that to please you we have to become simple and not duplicitous. I was wondering what practical service is pleasing to you?Gaura Govinda Swami: That's individual, not general. There are specific and general instructions. For individual instruction, you come to me and I will speak. Those instructions differ form person to person. It's not the same for one and all. Don't be so foolish as to ask such a question.Devotee: All this talk of crying for Krsna: I was just reading in the Nectar of Devotion that we should not cry before the Deity.Gaura Govinda Swami: Don't cry before the Deities- cry in your room! This crying should be in the heart. Krsna is everywhere. If you cry, Krsna knows, Krsna sees.Genuine Sadhu-sangaDevotee: Paramatma is comparable to guru in some ways?Gaura Govinda Swami: Paramatma is the manifestation of guru and guru is the manifestation of Paramatma. Katha Upanisad says:nayam atma pravacena labhyo na medhaya na bahuna srutena yam evaisa vrnute tena labhyas tasyaisa atma vivrnute tanum svamThe Supreme Self can never be known by any amount of argument, reasoning, intelligence, or by much hearing. To those whom He chooses, however, He may reveal His personal form.If someone is crying for Krsna, Paramatma knows. Then Paramatma assumes a body and appears. When He appears externally he is guru. "Tanu" means body. Vivrnute tanum svam- He assumes a body and is known as caitya-guru. Therefore I say, cry,cry,cry! Paramatma will know, "Now he is crying for Me." In this regard, sadhu-sanga in most important. And that means a real sadhu in the true sense, not a hypocrite sadhu, not a bogus sadhu- a real sadhu. "Guru" means heavy, not laghu. These words have their meanings and you should understand them. If you really meet guru then you association with laghus will be bitter. That's a most important thing. That's the test who is guru."Laghu" means material things. You are associating with material poets, material politicians, materially wealthy persons, and materially learned persons. They are laghus. When you associate with a sadhu and get his krpa then automatically the taste will be bitter and you will no longer like to associate with laghus. You should associate with a real sadhu. Sadhu-krpa, then mercy of sadhu, is powerful. It is a most important thing. It is said, vaisnava- krpaye tare sarva siddhi- If you can get the mercy of a sadhu then you will achieve all perfection. Moreover, it must be with a real sadhu, a sadhu is the true sense of the term. Not a hypocrite or bogus sadhu or kali-cela! They are only posing like sadhu. If a genuine sadhu casts his merciful glance on you then you have it! Sadhu-sanga is most important, most important. One should develop greed for such a type of sadhu-sanga. Don't resist such greed. You are greedy for material accumulations. That is you enemy. That will lead you to hell. Now become greedy for this, to have such sadhu-sanga. "How can I get it, how can I get it?" Develop this greed. It should not be resisted. It is the only thing needed.

[Laulyam]

" Mix with such sadhu who are actually executing Krsna-bhajana" This is the symptom of mahatma, one who has surrendered to Krsna fully. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah. So that is guru, mahatma, who knows vasudevah sarvam iti [bg.7.19]. Such mahatma is guru. Mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim asritah, bhajanty ananya-manasah [bg.9.13]. The guru has no other business than Krsna-bhajana. So that you have to see.You have to learn. You have to appreciate with persons who are actually engaged in Krsna-bhajana. Then you'll understand. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah[Cc.Madhya23.14-15]. Sadhu means bhajate mam ananya-bhak sadhur eva sa mantavyah[bg.9.30]. He's sadhu. Who? Who has no other business than Krsna. Mix with such sadhu who are actually executing Krsna-bhajana. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah. This is the description of the sadhu. Bhajate mam Anaya-bhak sadhur eva sa mantavayah [bg.9.30]. These things are there. There is no question of being misled. But if you purposefully mislead yourself, who can check? In the beginning you may commit some mistake, but when you study Bhagavad-gita- who is sadhu, who is mahatma, who is guru- then why shall we make, commit mistake again? If you have done mistake-you have gone to a rascal who is not Krsna conscious- then when you read Bhagavad-gita, you can understand. Why you are misled? Why you should be misled? If it is written on the road, " Keep to the left," why should you be misled and go to the right? Go to the left. Then you are not misled. So here it is said, mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim asritah [bg.9.13]. A mahatma means who is always engaged in Krsna consciousness. Why do you accept somebody as mahatma who does not speak about Krsna? Then you are misleading yourself. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah. Vasudeva sarvam iti [bg.7.19]. Everything, direction, is there. Why you create your own mahatma? If you want to be cheated, who can check you? That is your fault. In Bhagavad-gita, it is clearly said, bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah [bg.7.19] That is mahatma. Mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakritim asritah, bhajanty ananya-manasah[bg.9.13]. Sadhur… Api cet suduracaro bhajate mam ananya-bhak [bg.9.30]. He's mahatma. He's sadhu. We shall go to him. Why shall we go to a rascal? Simple directions. So if you are mislead, if you are cheated, whose fault it is? But if you want to be cheated, who can check? Even though somebody by mistake has gone to a rascal, the book is there. As soon as you find out, " Here is a rascal who does not know anything about Krsna, and I have come to him," reject him. That is stated in the sastra.Gurur apy avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanantah parityago vidhiyate. (?) Even by mistakeYou have come to a rascal who does does not know how to become guru, you can reject him. Why you should stick to him? Reject him. And by mistake I have come to rascal. Why shall I continue to accept him as guru? Canakya Pandita said, tyaja durjana-samsargam bhaj sadhu-samagamam: " Give up all rascals. Associate with sadhus." If you do not do that, that is your fault. Tyaja durjana-samsargam bhaj sadhu-samagamam. We have to mix with sadhu. Sadhu means who are twenty-four-hours engaged in Krsna's service: Things are there. Why you should mix with asadhu? Then how can you understand? Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah[Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. If you have got little faith, then next business is to associate with sadhus.Srila Prabhupada Room conversation- January 31,1977, Bhubaneshwar

[suchandra]

 

Excerpts from Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja's book 'Pariprasna.' Devotee: What if someone tries to serve his guru in this way and then later on the guru falls down?Gaura Govinda Swami: That's a bogus guru, nor a bona fide guru.Devotee: In that case one's surrender and service count for nothing?Gaura Govinda Swami: Nothing, zero!

This is rather not applicable in present situation since a system of appointing spiritual masters with absolute status is already established.

 

Therefore all the consequences have to be accepted in full. To say a fallen guru is "a zero, nothing" means people are confused about the difference of priest and mahabhagavat.

 

Lord Caitanya sent His servant Krishnadas Brahmin home because Krishnadas Brahmin was on the level of priest, those who might fall down. However, Srila Haridasa Thakur, born in a non-aryan Muslim family was appointed as nama acarya because Haridas Thakur was above the platform of falling back.

 

Once again, you cannot reject a diksa guru, saying, he's fallen now.

To say he's fallen means he's a priest like Krishnadas Brahmin in the Caitanya-lila. Since present gurus are appointed as full fledged absolute diksa gurus, the disciples have to consider them as their gurus for the rest of life.

This is the vedic rule and law - it cannot be violated.

 

Guru=as good as God. You cannot suspend/excommunicate God!

Hope this is clear.

[suchandra]

 

So called fallen guru, photographed 8 years after his excommunication - flown in all the way to St.Petersburg/Russia, to install the deities of Radha and Krishna.

[ranjeetmore]

laulayam is ABSOLUTELY FULLY CORECT.

The guru HAS TO HAVE Prema !

Every single rasik,Rupa gosvami to meera to Sri kripaluji maharaja HAVE DECLARED THAT the guru has SVARUPA SHAKTI .He alone bestows Prema.He HAS prema,thats y he can BESTOW PREMA.This is not speculation.Look it up in any devotional buk.

There is no pure devotee and impure devotee.There is either a prema bhakta or a non prema bhakta.Evry devotee upto the level of ruchi is subject to falling down.

Only prema bhaktas are cnsidered 4 the position 4 gurus.You may take initiation et all...bt if ur guru is bogus,hw can u ever cleanse ur heart ? You can chant till eternity.

But with a prema bhakta,you only need to hear him do kirtan,and ur heart is cleansed. why dnt we understand.

A persn who has krsna forever under his spell with the superexcellent prema,ONLY HE CAN BESTOW PREMA.

How can such a persn fall down ?

Prabhupada never fell down.NEVER.coz he was experiencing infinite happiness, seeing,talking,etc. With krsna.Why shud he indulge in 'faling down' ?

How do v recognise guru ?

He shud have PERFECT KNWLEDGE OF veda.

Also,a devotee who is far above prema like,sneha or smething is much easy to recognise.

What wil u do if u cme across a persn who is sittin in a broken hut,combing his white hair,luking in the broken mirror and crying,'ha ! Ram !' and then again combing his hair,so that when the naughty lord cmes,he can be ready ?

What wil u do ? You wil fall at his feet.Where is such bhava in jayatirtha ? Go to mahavana,vrndavana,there u wil find.Meera never went to a sampradaya.

[ranjeetmore]

I can vouch for jagadguru sri kripaluji maharaja.

Watch only a couple of his lectures.Only a couple. You wil undrstand what is exactly a prema bhakta.

Dnt sweat,i am no disciple of his.He technically has no disciples,although he freely endows Svarupa shakti to those whose minds are ready for it.

So without any preconcieved notions,watch or read bout him.You wil knw.

A simple sweet meat triggers a magnificent shiver and widening of eyes in him.No one can fake trances,and no one can fake 'hiding a genuine bhava' which only the bhava bhakta does,for he doesnt want to show off

[primate]

I'm sorry mate. The way I see it, you have been cheated.

 

Regards

[ranjeetmore]

gaura govinda maharaja has given PERFECT answer.

Crying is the ONLY tool.

EVERY MAHATMA accepts it.

Vamshivat babaji has given FOREMOST IMPORTANCE to crying while remembering the Lord.

I think gaura govinda Maharaja has given THE MOST PERFECT ANSWER.any1 can tell he's a genuine mahatma.His answer matches perfectly with shastra,sadhu,et al.

He didnt hav to refer to any text b4 giving that answer.

[CCC]

i have read a booklet of Gaura govinda about how to recognize a guru...

 

the relationship is with Krishna why should I cry to him for a guru?

 

just chant hare krsna

 

this is like the jehova witness if you are not with us so you will go to hell.

 

if ou dont have a guru you cnt go back to godhead as srila prabhupada says

 

 

now people are more attached to their gurus than Krsna, this is a subtle deviation from Krsna, people thinks that the guru will save you:wacko:.

[mahak]

When I see slim pickins laying on the ground, crying to his wife, "Come take this badge offa me, I cant wear it any more, it feels like Im knockin on heavens door". I cry when the son comes down the stairs and the chiropractor/guru lets the guy in Jacob's Ladder, "everything is okay, you can die now".

 

Crying is not a test of whether a guru is genuine, but "genuine" crying may be, so Im not knockin your info. There is a lot of good info coming from many of Srila Prabhupadas disciples concerning a "genuine" guru. Srila Prabhupada DID ACTUALLY have GENUINE disciples, who are all genuine gurus. Im not all that familiar with Gaura Govinda maharaja, but others are quite authoritive on the issue, folks like Srila BA Paramadwaiti Swami and others.

 

Crying can come from the mind, a great enemy of one trying to rid oneself of false ego, thus I used the movie analogies. Fanaticism can also cause great crying, I remember the Rajneeshies, the Moonies, the Children of God. They were all great criers. So were the followers of our despicable acquaintences who posed as disciples of Srila Prabhupada, the peace krsnas, the hillbillies, the nazis and others who always had plenty of tears. In fact, a GENUINE devotee affected with GENUINE tears will hide like hell to avoid making a show of such transcendental emotion, just as Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhui only exhibited such rasa only in the presence of a very few of his great disciples, such as Swarupa Damodara and Ramananda raya. Srila Prabhupada sometimes slipped into sub-samadhi, and would very quickly correct himself.

 

So, forget the tears. If you have them and they are genuine, pray fervantly to Sri Sri Radha and Krsna to immediately dry your eyes, because tears are a means of great misrepresentation of reality in this chaotic age.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[mahak]

Guru fall down, what a crock, no such thing, period. That was not a guru, it was a pretender, a paundraka with extra arms pasted on. Krsna laughed at paundraka before he killed him.

[suchandra]

 

Guru fall down, what a crock, no such thing, period. That was not a guru, it was a pretender, a paundraka with extra arms pasted on. Krsna laughed at paundraka before he killed him.

 

Guess in this case we have to be rather realistic and deal with the plain facts what is presently globally installed. Both, ISKCON's community and ISKCON's management reiterated and reinforced for 30 years that they want diksa-gurus with the privileg to resign from office.

So, 30 years should be enough for us who're slow on the uptake that there will be no change.

But agreed in the same way there is no such thing as God is fallen down, there's also no such thing as His representative falls down.

 

acaryam mam vijaniyam navamanyeta karhicit

na martya-buddhyasuyeta sarva-deva-mayo guruh

 

"One should know the Acharya as Myself and never disrespect him in anyway. One should not envy him, thinking him an ordinary man, for he is the representative of all the demigods." (SB.11.17.27)

[bija]

There is sastric evidence from Guruparampara that each devotees heart may be differently constituted upon contact with bhava's (as either a soft or hard heart)...therefore various bhava's may or may not be under the devotees control to conceal so easily! Ofcourse if real bhava is occuring one's permanent bhava in service must have already being awakened.

 

But saying that, Lord's Nityananda Gauranga (as per CC adi chapter 8) purify the heart rapidly, so that as soon as one chants the Mahamantra tears flow. That is only possible if offences are cleared from the heart by Lord's Nityananda Gauranga's mercy.

 

For the sadhaka who has not attained bhava-bhakti extreme greed may still be present as a sadhaka. The simple hearted devotee will thus gradually awaken to the correct process, by Guru and Gauranga's mercy. Things may be temporal in the sadhaka's beginning stage, and imitated, but by Guru's grace such folly will soon be left behind. This is once again evidence of the supreme mercy of Lord's Nitaai-Gauranga!

 

We must be careful when we judge a devotee as being an imitator. The beginner may just be learning, and therefore we must offer grace. The neophyte devotee may simply be so soft hearted that it is difficult for him/her to contain the exquisite mercy of the Lord.

 

Ofcourse if one exhibits false imitative tears for adoration and other motives caused by pride and deceit etc, which are concealed in the heart...then such symptoms should be rejected by the discerning devotees. Then again if such a deceitful devotee takes shelter of Lord's Nitaai-Gauranga such exhibitions will soon leave and the original purity of that devotees heart will arise. And in due course bhava-bhakti will manifest.

 

 

 

from Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhi-bindhu by Srila Vishvanatha (commentary by Srila BV Narayana)

 

Verse 16 – Gradation in the

Manifestation of Bhavas

kiμ ca bhaktrinriμ cittrinushrire√a bhrivrinriμ prrika†yatriratamyaμ

bhavati. tatra kvacit samudravad gambhîra-citte ’pi

aprrika†yam svalpa-prrika†yaμ vri. alpa-khritavat tarala-citte

atishaya-prrika†yaμ ca bhavatîti nriyam rityantika niyama iti

prapashco na likhita˙.

Shrî Bindu-vikrishinî-vrtti

There is a gradation in the manifestation of bhavas in accordance

with the mental disposition or the heart of the devotee. In

devotees whose hearts are very grave (gambhîra) or deep like the

ocean, the manifestation of these bhavas is not seen or their manifestation

may be perceived only to a slight extent. In devotees

whose hearts are very flickering and shallow like a small pond,

these bhavas are sometimes seen to manifest very powerfully.

Because there is no special rule that governs the manifestation of

such bhavas, this subject has not been elaborately described.

Comment

In Bhakti-rashrimrta-sindhu (2.4.250–70) this topic has been discussed

more elaborately. The essential points from that section are

presented as follows.

In a devotee in whom rati for Krishna in one of the five primary

relationships is manifest, there are forty-one bhavas that may arise

and interact. The thirty-three vyabhicari-bhavas together with the

seven secondary forms of rati (laughter, wonder and so on) and one

among the five primary forms of rati, make a total of forty-one

bhavas. These are known as mukhya-bhavas. The mental disposition

(citta-vrtti) that arises from the manifestation of all these

bhavas is said to bring about various transformations in the body

and senses.

Among the bhavas or emotions such as fierceness, restlessness,

fortitude, shyness and so on, some are innate (svabhavika) in particular

devotees and some are incidental (agantuka). Those bhavas

which are innate pervade both the external and internal being of

the devotee. The innate bhavas are compared to mashjistha, an

Indian plant which is a source of red dye. In this plant the quality

of redness is an inherent and enduring feature that pervades

throughout. The bhavas or emotions that are innate within particular

devotees are very easily activated by even slight stimulation.

The innate bhavas follow in the wake of krsnaa-rati. In other

words it is the permanent emotion of rati that determines which

emotions are svabhavika. Although rati is ordinarily of one type

(in other words it is constituted of nothing other than affection for

Shrî Krishnaa), it manifests in different varieties as shanta, dasya and so

on, in accordance with different inclinations to serve Krisha in a

particular way.

The agantuka or incidental emotions are like the temporary

application of red dye to a cloth that is inherently white. They are

manifested in the devotee by the innate bhavas. Therefore they are

called anubhavas, or effects of the innate emotions.

Variegatedness is observed in all the emotions due to the differences

in the devotees and due to alteration of the components of

rasa such as vibhava, anubhava, vyabhicari-bhriva and so on,

which come into play in different circumstances. Because of the

difference in the characteristic qualities of various devotees, their

minds are of different types. Therefore there is a gradation in the

external and internal manifestation of all these bhavas in accordance

with the disposition of the mind or heart.

A devotee whose mental disposition is karkasha or hard is of three

varieties: (1) garistha (heavy) – the heavy heart is compared to

gold in terms of its weight, (2) gambhîra (grave) – the grave heart

is compared to the ocean in depth and (3) mahistha (big) – the big

heart is compared to a great city in size. These are all characteristics

of a heart that is said to be karkasha. Even though ecstatic

emotions may arise very strongly in devotees possessing such characteristics,

they are not visibly manifest and therefore cannot be detected by others.

 

A devotee whose mental disposition is komala or soft is also of

three varieties: (1) laghstha (light) – the light heart is compared

to cotton in terms of its lightness, (2) uttana (shallow) – the shallow

heart is compared to a small pond in depth and (3) ksodistha (tiny)

– the tiny heart is compared to a small cottage in size. These are all

characteristics of a heart that is said to be komala. Even a slight

uprise of emotion in devotees possessing such characteristics is

clearly visible in the body and thus easily detected by others.

Shrîla Rupa Gosvamî has written that the heart which is heavy

(garistha) is like a lump of gold and the heart which is light

(laghistha) is like a ball of cotton. Emotion that arises in the

heart of these two varieties is like the wind. A ball of cotton is sent

flying by the wind whereas a lump of gold remains fixed. Similarly,

even when there is a very powerful upsurge of emotion, no external

transformations are visible in a devotee whose heart is very

heavy. In a devotee whose heart is light, however, transformations

are observed even upon a slight rise of emotion.

The heart which is deep (gambhîra) is like the ocean and the

heart which is shallow (uttana) is like a small pond. Emotion that

arises in the heart of these two varieties is compared to a great

mountain peak. Even if a huge boulder or a mountain peak falls in

the ocean, no disturbance is seen in the ocean. But if a pebble is

thrown in a small pond, all the water is agitated. Similarly, even if

many bhavas appear in a devotee whose heart is very deep, he

remains steady; no transformations appear in his body. But when a

slight appearance of bhavas manifest in a devotee whose heart is

shallow, he becomes agitated and ecstatic transformations become

visible in his body.

The heart which is large (mahistha) is like a great city and the

heart which is small (ksodistha) is like a cottage. Emotion that

arises in the heart of these two varieties is compared to a lamp and

an elephant. In a great city, lamps and elephants are not noticed.

But before a cottage, lamps and elephants are clearly seen.

 

Similarly, in the heart which is mahistha, no transformations are

seen on the rise of emotion. But in the heart which is ksodistha,

transformations resulting from the rise of emotion are immediately

seen.

Heaviness (garisthatva) and lightness (laghisthatva) of the

heart have been described in order to illustrate the perplexity

(viksepa) and non-perplexity (aviksepa) of the heart that arises

upon being exposed to the influence of the vyabhacri-bhavas.

Similarly the heart is said to be karkasha or komala according to its

degree of meltability or non-meltability by the vyabhicari-bhavas.

The heart which is unmoved by a slight contact with the

vyabhicari-bhrivas is said to be heavy or garis†ha, and the heart

which is easily moved is said to be light or laghistha. In reality the

heart is neither heavy nor light nor hard. Only according to the

degree of emotional frenzy experienced by the heart on contact

with the vyabhicari-bhavas is the heart said to be hard or soft.

Thx for your post and wisdom in this regard Mahak. Timely advice dear friend...thx!