Two Kinds of Souls

[RamanaDasi]

Quote:

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Sarva Gattah, according to your ideas, the personal associates of Sri Krishna can fall into a dream and experience material life?

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Yes, that's correct however, less than 10% choose to 'consciously' leave the eternal presents of bhakti in Goloka. It is never a bodily fall down but rather a sub-conscious fall down.

 

Doesn't this mean your Guru may fall down anytime. Doesn't this mean Prabhupada can fall into illusion again and again?

[suchandra]

 

Well one thing is certain Suchandra, your not a follower of Srila Prabhupada writing that nonsense offensive impersonalism.

 

Actually Suchandra it is you who is twisting words to foolish preach Mayavadi TEACHINGS

 

You haven't got the spiritual intelligence to understand 'our original position in Goloka'

You always say that we are all already in the spiritual world. May be right for you, but why Lord Caitanya came here to preach? Because all the inhabitants of the material world are already in Goloka? Doesn't make sense. And by repeating this, you're somehow saying it's all one, a conditioned soul is at the same time fully situated in Krishna-lila in the spiritual world. I just said, no, it is not all one. Therefore Prabhupada named his magazine, "Back To Godhead", going back means for me, I'm not there yet. You're saying, no, all the nitya-baddhas are already there? Srila Haridas Thakur says (Cc.Antya. 3.78,79):

 

haridasa bale,—"tomara yavat martye sthiti

tavat sthavara-jaìgama, sarva jéva's-jati

saba mukta kari' tumi vaikueohe paohaiba

süknma-jeve punaù karme udbuddha kariba

 

Haridasa said, "My Lord, as long as You are situated within the materiaI world, You will send to the spirituaI sky all the deveIoped moving and nonmoving living entities in different species. Then again You will awaken the living entities who are not yet developed and engage them in activities. In this way all moving and nonmoving living entities will come into existence, and the entire universe will be filled as it was previously."

 

Here you find, "not yet developed", you say, no, the inhabitants of the material world are already in Goloka.

 

"From the platform of the material world, one cannot estimate the real

position of the antimaterial world. But the Supreme Lord, who is the

controller of both material and antimaterial energies, descends out of

His causeless mercy and gives us complete information of the

antimaterial world. In this way we can know what the antimaterial

world is. The Supreme Lord and the living entities are both

antimaterial in quality, we are informed. Thus, we can have an idea of

the Supreme Lord by an elaborate study of the living entities. Every

living entity is an individual person. Therefore, the supreme living

being must also be the supreme person. In the Vedic literatures the

supreme person is properly claimed to be Krsna. The name "Krsna,"

indicating the Supreme Lord, is the only truly intelligible name of

the highest order. He is the controller of both material and

antimaterial energies, and the very word "Krsna" signifies that He is

the supreme controller. In the Bhagavad-gita the Lord confirms this as

follows:

 

There are two worlds--the material and antimaterial. The

material world is composed of inferior qualitative energy divided into

eight material principles. The antimaterial world is made of superior

qualitative energy. Because both the material and antimaterial

energies are emanations of the Supreme Transcendence, the Personality

of Godhead, it is proper to conclude that I [Lord Krsna] am the

ultimate cause of all creations and annihilations."

~ Easy Journey to Other Planets , Ch 1, Antimaterial Worlds

[realist]

 

Yes, that's correct however, less than 10% choose to 'consciously' leave the eternal presents of bhakti in Goloka. It is never a bodily fall down but rather a sub-conscious fall down.

 

That freedom, free will and choice, is always there in Goloka with ALL living entities because without free will (even to leave serving Krsna in Goloka), then how can there be love.

 

We are not Krsna's robots, we are His servants by choice and free will

 

The point is, we ALL came from Krsnaloka to enter the material world and not the impersonal Brahmajyoti or a plain sheet of blanket consciousness, as some you probably know, (Govinda Maharaj and Narayana Maharaj) speak about. We also never came form some dormant realm inbetween the Vaikunthas and material worlds either.

 

We all came from Goloka

 

Because of free will any marginal living entity can fall down, that is why we are called marginal. But great souls like Prabhupada, even though technically due to free will, as Prabhupada says, they can also fall down, they NEVER do because they choose not to miss use that free will and always remain Krsnas servant.

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/1732507/jiva (jiva's fall from Goloka)

 

Also it is Prabhupada who says we are always in Vaikuntha but are now presently dreaming we are in the material world

[RamanaDasi]

 

Because of free will any marginal living entity can fall down, that is why we are called marginal. But great souls like Prabhupada, even though technically due to free will, as Prabhupada says, they can also fall down, they NEVER do because they choose not to miss use that free will and always remain Krsnas servant.

 

 

How do you know Prabhupada is in the group of souls who can never fall down?

 

What is the word in Sanskrit for associates of Krishna who will never fall down? It is nitya-siddha. But you say any nitya-siddha can fall. Your circular logic is ridiculous.

[realist]

 

How do you know Prabhupada is in the group of souls who can never fall down?

 

What is the word in Sanskrit for associates of Krishna who will never fall down? It is nitya-siddha. But you say any nitya-siddha can fall. Your circular logic is ridiculous.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness." Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

 

 

 

 

 

FALLING TO THE MATERIAL WORLD j

 

 

It is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha" (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp. by Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Yes, that is exactly right as very clearly explained as follows

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave.

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Vishnu, as the Brahma-samhita describes –

· “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Vishnu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

That dream state secondary sub-consciousness of the living entity, activated when one is NOT Krishna Conscious is called the jiva-baddha or nitya-baddha consciousness.

 

Srila Prabhupada –“When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

 

Srila Prabhupada – “When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down?"

Srila Prabhupada's answer -"The souls are endowed with minute independence (the ability to choose) as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence". 67-08-27. Letter: Jananivasa

Actually, you ARE a pure devotee RIGHT NOW, WE ALL ARE but we have forgotten that long, long, long ago, we have allowed ourselves to be covered by the cloud of selfish desires that blocks out our memory of who we really are.

 

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…(In Vaikuntha) so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material”.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with (This biological body or vessel and the material creation). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. (Meaning we are always nitya-siddha) Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud”. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

Srila Prabhupada - "There is no question that you were ever [not in Vaikuntha]. You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya”. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment”. Washington D.C., July 8, 1976 760708ED.WDC

Srila Prabhupada - "By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer." Also: "The vibbhinamsa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities”. Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

 

Srila Prabhupada - "If you fall down from the platform, then it is your fault. Just like we are all in the Vaikuntha planet. Now, we wanted to enjoy this material world. We have fallen down, Now we are trying to go back again. Therefore we say, "Go back to home, back to Godhead." Lecture Srimad-Bhagavatam 1975 750522SB.MEL

Srila Prabhupada - “We have given up the company of Krsna, and we wanted to be happy in this material world. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1972 720928SB.LA

Also it should be made clearly that Maya has nothing to do with one FIRST forgetting Krsna and their nitya-siddha perpetual bodily identity and 'sub-consciously' falling to the material world because She (Maya-s'akti) does not exist in that role in Vaikuntha.

The answer is quite simple, it is the choice of the living entity, it is free will, the ability to be with Krishna as their eternal nitya-siddha body (who they really are) or drop out and do their own thing with the provisions provided by Krishna's expansion Maha-Vishnu

Actually we ALL still in Vaikuntha but are 'consciously' caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation that has covered our awareness to the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka, like a cloud covers the view of the Sun"

Srila Prabhupada – “When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

Here we are told our fall down is one of 'consciousness and NOT SVARUPA body

 

The fact is no-one falls down from Krsnaloka, the planet from where we are all from because our eternal nitya-siddha body, of whom is our real eternal permanent identity,NEVER EVER FALLS DOWN DUE due to the ETERNAL present.

 

We only dream, imagine and think we fall down, that sub-conscious projection that enters the material creation is called the baddha jiva. However, ones real authentic self or nitya siddha krsna Conscious bodily form NEVER falls down.

 

Try to understand side by side with chanting Hare Krsna

[realist]

Srila Prabhupada –“We are eternally conditioned (nitya baddha), but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (nitya-siddha)? You are not eternally conditioned (nitya baddha). You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha), but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it only APPEARS that we are eternally conditioned (nitya baddha).

Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise, the living entity is NOT actually conditioned (nitya-baddha).

A living entity is always pure(nitya-siddha). But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned (nitya-baddha), but that is not permanent.

Therefore, a living entity is called on the marginal state, sometimes this side, sometimes that side. These are very intelligent questions. And I am very glad that you are putting such intelligent questions and trying to understand it. It is very good”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968

Note -Prabhupada says here to try and understand, where as in another letter to us Australian devotee on another occasion he said “Don’t waste time with the crow-and-tal-fruit logic” I have always prefered the 'try to understand' instructions from his Divine Grace

[RamanaDasi]

If you believe in these types of ideas then good luck to you. The soul is free to do as she chooses. I never had any connection with Swami Prabhupada or the Iskcon movement and I'm not a believer in that.

 

Whether or not Swami Prabhupada taught this idea you claim he taught is a topic other people might want to discuss with you. But I'm not interested. Your opinions are anti-Vedic.

 

I prefer to believe in the direct statements of Sri Krishna who said, "One who reaches my eternal abode will never return to this material world" and "My devotee will never perish".

 

Only deluded people will think the associates of Krishna such as the Gopis in Goloka can fall into ignorance and become centipedes, pigs and spiders. Your claim that the Gopis only fall "in their dreams" is equally absurd. The pain a person feels in a dream is just as real as the pain we feel in waking life. You are trying to teach us that the Gopis can feel material pain. But what you are trying to teach is a sinful idea. People who think like this are like obsessive and disturbed people who are haunted by nasty, offensive thoughts. Nama-aparadha, Vaishnava-aparadha, Guru-aparadha. You are preachers of offensive ideas, you people who are preaching that Krishna doesn't protect his beloved associates from suffering and material existence. You people who believe this sort of nonsense really are very unfortunate.

[bhaktajan]

Strange Birds abound?

 

How do you know Prabhupada is in the group of souls who can never fall down?

[Think like a human person.

It's similar to the principle:

"Fool me once shame on you;

Fool me twice shame on me"

--after gaining knowledge that required lifetimes transpiring through

'phantom-time-scale' eons ages after ages,

one becomes enlightened,

enlightened to our predicament,

enlightened to our stupidity,

enlightened to why the lessons Mom & Pop thought where best for our happiness --being Spiritually Mature means we've sowed our wild oats and then transcended petty adolescent prissy behavior.

Senority is truely senority is absolute senority is the means of ranking levels in Krishna's posse aka entourage.]

 

What is the word in Sanskrit for associates of Krishna who will never fall down? It is nitya-siddha. But you say any nitya-siddha can fall. Your circular logic is ridiculous.

[sarva gattha has explained the status quo on the subject.

I advise you take notes. "Nitya-baddha" is the term.

Such as yourself.

I attest to Sarva-gattha's explaination--So rest assured they wont come looking for your testimony on what Prabhupada taught and translated in his books which are the standard-of-measurement for all things Vedic.

 

How can one say they are being exclusively "Vedic"?.

Aside from a provincial family parampara which are greatly respected for their traditions.

 

BTW, "circular logic" is so mis-used as a term:

Logic is designed to be air tight, a self-contained rule, circular;

ie: 2+2=4 so if I explain that 4 = 2+2 is an example of circular logic [misanthropic syntaxs such as the use of the word "Terrific", "Stupendous", "Foxy", "Dope" may be translated differently in exactly the reverse meaning]

---what you mean by "circular logic" is:

when a person listens intently to some svangali (with a hidden ulterior motive) it should be discerned that their logic is meant to direct the listener's convictions toward some cheating falsity.]

 

I prefer to believe in the direct statements of Sri Krishna who said, "One who reaches my eternal abode will never return to this material world" and "My devotee will never perish".

[We have all met with this sort of complaint--Best of "Luck" in your mission.]

 

Only deluded people will think the associates of Krishna such as the Gopis in Goloka can fall into ignorance and become centipedes, pigs and spiders. Your claim that the Gopis only fall "in their dreams" is equally absurd. The pain a person feels in a dream is just as real as the pain we feel in waking life. You are trying to teach us that the Gopis can feel material pain. But what you are trying to teach is a sinful idea. People who think like this are like obsessive and disturbed people who are haunted by nasty, offensive thoughts. Nama-aparadha, Vaishnava-aparadha, Guru-aparadha. You are preachers of offensive ideas, you people who are preaching that Krishna doesn't protect his beloved associates from suffering and material existence. You people who believe this sort of nonsense really are very unfortunate.

[Well founded sense of self-righteousness like no mayavad could conceive!

"Beloved associates"? You ask if God would crucify his only child?

You are still a student. Face it. Accept it. Time to get back to class.

Best of "Luck" in your mission.

PS: I don't think you are being fortright with you opinions.

PSS: Lao Tse said that first thing to do when building a city is to plan the prison house.]

[RamanaDasi]

 

[Think like a human person.

It's similar to the principle:

"Fool me once shame on you;

Fool me twice shame on me"

--after gaining knowledge that required lifetimes transpiring through

'phantom-time-scale' eons ages after ages,

one becomes enlightened,

enlightened to our predicament,

enlightened to our stupidity,

enlightened to why the lessons Mom & Pop thought where best for our happiness --being Spiritually Mature means we've sowed our wild oats and then transcended petty adolescent prissy behavior.

Senority is truely senority is absolute senority is the means of ranking levels in Krishna's posse aka entourage.]

Sarva and Bhaktajan have different ideas here.

 

Sarva says a person can fall down from Goloka again and again and again (etc)

 

Bhaktajan believes you don't fall a second time, you only fall from Goloka once.

 

What then of the statement by Krishna in the Gita (8.21

 

It directly contradicts your Iskcon ideas

 

 

 

 

avyakto ’kshara ity uktas

tam ahuh paramam gatim

yam prapya na nivartante

tad dhama paramam mama

 

"That which the Vedantists describe as unmanifest and infallible, that which is known as the supreme destination, that place from which, having attained it, one never returns—that is My supreme abode."

 

 

 

 

commentary of Sri Ramanuja to Bg. 8.21:

 

Lord Krishna now reveals His superior conscious avyakta or unmanifest which is different in principle and substance then the unconscious avyakta or unmanifest of Brahma which is non-intelligent and operates according to set parameters. Lord Krishna's superior avyakta is characterised by eternality due to its possession atma tattva or soul realisation. Thus it is also characterised by jnana or consciousness. Avyakta is also known as indistinct because it beyond any perceptive faculty of the mind or senses to cognise it as a perceivable reality. The purport is that avyakta is a principle of self-consciousness and as such is completely unique in its nature. The word sanatanah meaning eternal because His supreior avyakta is not subject to combination and aggregation or resolution and disintegration and never disperses or dissipates when all the material elements of earth, water, fire, air and ether in there rudimental forms and derivative forms dissolve away although His superior avyakta abides within them. This is why the Vedic scriptures call it avyakta or indistinct as well as aksara or indestructible. Those steeped in the wisdom of the Vedic scriptures have declared that this is the paramam gatim or supreme exalted goal to be achieved. Lord Krishna previously mentioned aksara in verse three of this chapter and will later mention it again in chapters XII.III and XV.XVI.

 

 

The superior state of avyakta is where atma tattva or soul realisation abounds and when once reached immediately precludes forever the subjection to union with matter again as there is no more rebirth for reincarnation has been terminated. Lord Krishna specifies their destination with the words dhama paramam mama meaning His supreme personal abode of eternity, knowledge and bliss where all things reciprocate fully with Him and is the abode of the liberated beings. The word dhama also denotes luminosity as in the light of consciousness which is the primary attribute of the atma or soul. Thus Lord Krishna is indicating His paramam dhama as non-different from the infinite consciousness of the atma in contrast to the limited state of consciousness one possesses who is oblivious to the atma due to being deluded by the illusory material energy known as maya and cherishing the association of the senses with sense objects. The other avyakta where resides praktiti or the material substratum which contains all living entities and which is perishable is controlled by Lord Krishna as well through His manifestation as the eternal atma or soul within the etheric heart of all created beings throughout all existence. This is the abode of the non-liberated beings. From the superior avyakta there is no return to samsara the cycle of birth and death. The next verse will show how the goal of the jnani or knower of the Supreme Lord is the most sublime state of consciousness, more exalted than any other.

 

 

Pardon me, but I choose to follow teachings different from your Iskcon ideas

[bhaktajan]

LEAD; FOLLOW; or GET OUT OF THE WAY!

 

PS: I don't think you are being fortright with you opinions.

[RamanaDasi]

 

LEAD; FOLLOW; or GET OUT OF THE WAY!

 

PS: I don't think you are being fortright with you opinions.

Who should I follow? If I follow Iskcon I will go to a place like Devaloka where Indra resides. A world from which I can fall back into this world of samsara.

 

Excuse me but I don't wish to go to your heaven. I am looking for a higher heaven.

[suchandra]

 

Srila Prabhupada - “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness." Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

 

This is surely derived from vedic statements where it says, everything resides in God and cannot be accepted cheaply.

 

When Lord Caitanya says, "I am Your eternal servitor, yet somehow or other I have fallen into the ocean of birth and death. Please pick me up from this ocean of death and place me as one of the atoms at Your lotus feet", the actual dimension of the jivas' tragedy of not being already in Goloka becomes more clear.

 

Besides, when looking close at all these epidemic falldowns after Prabhupada left it should be clear that all these big leaders considered they are spiritually situated but in fact they were/are terribly wrong.

Spiritual life is not so cheap.

 

When speaking for the 500 mio population of the European Union, who are the leaders now, only the hedgers, those who hated to go out summer and winter to save the conditioned souls and bring them Bhagavad-gita.

 

All those hard working sankirtan devotees are kicked out and those slackers are now in power who would never stoop to take a seat in a sankirtan van.

 

In sum it is easy to quote Prabhupada out of context, especially on the internet, but to understand things in full is a totally different topic.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Sarva says a person can fall down from Goloka again and again and again

 

Not exactly, as already explained, less from 10% choose to miss use their free will and enter the material creation, not as their nitya siddha body, but as an extended or projected secondary consciousness known as the baddha jiva.

 

The baddha jiva or nitya-baddha non Krsna consciousness state, is then given bodily form or a variety of ethereal and biological containments or vessels, by Maha-Vishnu within His mahat tattva creation to experience those selfish misken desires, thoughts and dreams of grandur and self importance.

 

Most marginal living entities never DREAM they are in the material world like this because they choose NEVER to forget Krsna, and those few that do, on regaining the memory of their eternal nitya siddha Krsna Conscious body, NEVER again come back to the mahat tattva, that is of course, if they choose never AGAIN to forget Krsna.

 

Prabhupada says there is always chance of fall down

 

My point is, because of free will and the ability to choose, it is possiblr for you and me on our return , to again come back at anytime - the choice is always ours.

 

The fact is, if you love Krsna by your own choice, then what have you to fear? You will never fall down

 

As long as you selflessly always choose to serve or love Krsna, you will never come back.

 

On the other hand, if you have just a pinch of selfishness, then yes, you can fall sub-consciously to your baddha-jiva-self-centred-dream state secondary or inferior self and experience material life as you have already understood -

 

Again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again -

 

THE CHOICE IS ALWAYS YOURS BECAUSE YOU HAVE FREE WILL AND THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE

 

SO CHOOSE TO ALWAYS SERVE KRSNA AND YOU WILL NEVER FALL DOWN

[suchandra]

 

Sarva and Bhaktajan have different ideas here.

 

Sarva says a person can fall down from Goloka again and again and again (etc)

 

Bhaktajan believes you don't fall a second time, you only fall from Goloka once.

 

What then of the statement by Krishna in the Gita (8.21

 

 

 

 

Well yes, things have bcome very cheap these days - go to Goloka and next day - come back to the killing of cows and having barbecue with karmi friends.

Therefore I said this kind of spirituality doesn't attract conditioned souls to become Vaishnavas, therefore the temples are empty and about of being closed.

[RamanaDasi]

So if a cowherd boy wants to sit on Krishna's shoulders and beat Krishna in a wrestling fight, sometimes Krishna will encourage that as part of his play, and sometimes that other boy's ego or desire to be superior to Krishna will be the cause of his downfall. His desire to sit on Krishna's shoulders will mean he gets an experience of mortal life. Krishna will randomly allow some boys to sit in his shoulder while other boys get sent to hell.

 

What Krishna really needs is for you Iskconians to go and do sankirtan in Goloka and warn all the cowherds not to play too rough with Krishna. Warn them! If they play too rough they will go to hell.

 

I can just imagine it. Life in the perfect world where everyone is perfectly fearful all the time. Fearful that if they do any sin they will have to fall and suffer karma once again.

 

Iskcon-Goloka. The re-formed Goloka. The future Goloka where all the souls are full of fear of God because they see the Iskcon mind-controll team that is always roaming around and warning everyone "don't do that!" and "don't do that"

 

Excuse me, but I will pass on that. I am looking, as I said, looking for a better heaven than your Iskcon heaven. The one that Sri Chaitanya taught about is much more appealing. Let me go there. You can have Iskcon-Goloka for yourselves.

[RamanaDasi]

 

Well yes, things have bcome very cheap these days - go to Goloka and next day - come back to the killing of cows and having barbecue with karmi friends.

Therefore I said this kind of spirituality doesn't attract conditioned souls to become Vaishnavas, therefore the temples are empty and about of being closed.

 

I think Swami Prabhupada was a great soul who Krishna sent to America to help the foreign people become Vaishnavas. It is unfortunate his foreign devotees are making up new beliefs that are not taught in the scriptures of the Goswamis.

[Sarva gattah]

Try and understand that the 'eternal present' is our original position, and that 'original position is eternal. It gives a whole new meaning to the word 'original' doesn't it.

it's just like the word NEW, everything is new in Krsnaloka, everything is forever new because of the'eternal present'

Try and understand that the 'eternal present' is our original position, and that 'original position is eternal

So, as far as being in the material world is concerned, our original position is Krsnaloka, try and understand

 

Srila Prabhupada -"The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krsna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: "We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ."

Srila Prabhupada -"The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature. And this minute independence may be utilised rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70.

The fact is, our original relationship with Krishna is never lost, although temporarily forgotten due to free will and choice. It is not a question of Maya dragging us out of Krsnaloka, it does not work like that, it is simply the choice of the living entity to remain with Krsna or enter the stool house material world.

Maya does not exist in Krsnaloka but choice does, there is always free will and choice.

As soon as we first chose to leave Krishna and also forget the svarupa body we serve Krishna as, our memory of ‘our original position’ is taken from us by the prakshepatmika-s’akti of Maya Devi, the wife of Maha-Vishnu who creates and manages the mahat-tattva material creation. We are thus covered over by her avaranatmika-s’akti of forgetfulness (after that choice is made to leave Krsna's Lila's) and no longer recall that we are originally nitya-siddha.

As such, our original relationship with the Lord is forgotten simply based on choice rather than Maya’s influence. She’s s’akti comes AFTER we made the choice to leave Krsna’s pastimes.

Srila Prabhupada -"Originally pure Krishna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krishna. From the state of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful." SB 3.26.23-24 pp.

[bija]

is all iskcon teaching this 'fall from goloka' theory? please excuse my ignorance.

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by suchandra

therefore the temples are empty and about of being closed.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

What a nonsense you are Suchandra, you have shown your true colours. Why don't you get out there and make devotees. It is easy to sit back and find fault

 

It aprears you are very envious of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON like many others from the Gaudiya math.

 

Actually ISKCON Temple have never had the amount of SOULS they have noW

The wonderful Hindu invasion of ISKCON Melbourne ( <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: threadbit_pagelink -->1 <!-- END TEMPLATE: threadbit_pagelink --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: threadbit_pagelink -->2 <!-- END TEMPLATE: threadbit_pagelink -->)

[suchandra]

 

is all iskcon teaching this 'fall from goloka' theory? please excuse my ignorance.

 

ISKCON is being infiltrated by people who kill ISKCON's original spirituality and therefore you find all the strategic planning comitees how to turn ISKCON into a business for collecting money from the visitors.

And the members helplessly having to agree to all this commercialization as an result of the leaders don't preach pure spiritual knowledge anymore.

[bija]

So do they preach 'fall from Goloka' or what? As an official Iskcon doctrine?

[suchandra]

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Originally Posted by suchandra

therefore the temples are empty and about of being closed.

 

</td></tr></tbody></table>

What a nonsense you are Suchandra, you have shown your true colours. Why don't you get out there and make devotees. It is easy to sit back and find fault

 

It aprears you are very envious of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON like many others from the Gaudiya math.

 

Actually ISKCON Temple have never had the amount of SOULS they have noW

The wonderful Hindu invasion of ISKCON Melbourne ( <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: threadbit_pagelink -->1 <!-- END TEMPLATE: threadbit_pagelink --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: threadbit_pagelink -->2 <!-- END TEMPLATE: threadbit_pagelink -->)

 

Kurma (not the chef), an Australian Vaishnava, reported about this "Hindu invasion" in Australian temples, saying, no more Australians are joining and the Indians being fooled into the bodily designation of being Hindus by the temple managers who are after money.

Thats what ISKCON is all about - to open temples wherever there're Hindu communities and fool these poor souls with mundane rituals to get their money. You find lots of reports like this, google with, "Hinduzation, Hinduisation, Hindu-isation of ISKCON" and judge for youself.

[Sarva gattah]

 

is all iskcon teaching this 'fall from goloka' theory? please excuse my ignorance.

 

No bija, only this thread, frankly it is really not that important, its personally just my speciality I have greatly studied and written a 500 page book about. I understand Srila Prabhupada’s teachings on this issue.

I have also met many others with different opinions like Srila Sridhar Maharaj and his disciple Govinda Maharaj, as well as other Gaudiya math Gurus like Narayana Maharaj – I’ve heard all their opinions and viewpoints but Srila Prabhupada is the real authority on this subject.

Others like Kurma prabhu’s speciality is cooking for Krsna, the ‘origin of the soul’ does not interest him because he knows if you chant Hare Krsna, prasadam and do some service, then you will go back home, back to Godhead

I f this subject was ever brought up with Kurma prabhu the wonderful chef, he would simply bring out a delicious plate of maha prsad and we would then talk about some blissful pastime about Krsna or Lord Caitanya, or even when we were young teenager Brahmacaris back in 72.

No, this thread is not important for everyone, only our sadhana is important

[Sarva gattah]

 

Thats what ISKCON is all about - to open temples wherever there're Hindu communities and fool these poor souls with mundane rituals to get their money. .

 

You write and prabably talk so much nonsene. Here you go, ring Melbourne Temple and tell them that 61-03-96995122

 

Actually at the end of Gauragopala's article he explains that the Temple does not perform the nonsense demigod worship you talk about or Kurma not the chef suggests

 

Also kurma (not the chef) has got it very wrong, in the cars they are installing photos of prabhupada, Pancha tattva and Lord Nrsingha FREE OF CHARGE to help them remember the Lord, I have such photos in my car and most devotees do to remind them of Krishna all the time and if there is an accident

 

Anyway Suchandra, your on my ignore list, you can write what ever you want, at least I will not be reading you miss directed mind.

Hari Bol

[Ashvatama]

 

No bija, only this thread, frankly it is really not that important, its personally just my speciality I have greatly studied and written a 500 page book about. I understand Srila Prabhupada’s teachings on this issue.

I have also met many others with different opinions like Srila Sridhar Maharaj and his disciple Govinda Maharaj, as well as other Gaudiya math Gurus like Narayana Maharaj – I’ve heard all their opinions and viewpoints but Srila Prabhupada is the real authority on this subject.

Others like Kurma prabhu’s speciality is cooking for Krsna, the ‘origin of the soul’ does not interest him because he knows if you chant Hare Krsna, honoring prasadam and doing some service, then you will go back home, back to Godhead

If this subject was ever brought up with Kurma prabhu the wonderful chef, he would simply bring out a delicious plate of maha prsad and we would then talk about some blissful pastime about Krsna or Lord Caitanya, or even when we were young teenager Brahmacaris back in 72.

No, this thread is not important for everyone, only our sadhana (chanting Hare Krishna, reading the Srimad Bhagavatam and serving the devotees) is important

 

Good advice.