Milly Posted September 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 Hi, please do not used the word "possessed", its as if it implies that mataji is a devil, which she is clearly not, instead of this word, use "manifested", as mataji manifests into people. Apologies to Mataji. Wrong choice of word on my part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted September 14, 2008 Report Share Posted September 14, 2008 Suchandra Namaste What text is that passage from that you quoted in Sanskrit? It makes absolutely no sense to me that Shiva's special purpose has to do only with material transations rather than anything else. You say that a non-Vaishnava who worships Shiva becomes more and more materially attached. Ask a Shaiva if Shiva has made him/her less attached over time. Shiva has the appearance of an ascetic (someone who is not attached). With his third eye he disintegrated Kama (sensuality, pleasure) which happens to represent our most primal desire. I'm not seeing this "Shiva makes us attached" idea and I'm not buying it. One of Shiva's 108 names is Aumkara. This means that he is the form of Aum. That means he is Brahman. Another one of his 108 names is Sanatana (Eternal) and this is also one of Krishna's 108 names. Take a look at what's in the Shwetashwatara Upanishad about Shiva: Passage 4:15 says that we are all one in Shiva. Passage 4:16 says that Shiva is the Supreme One, hidden in the hearts of all, encompassing the universe, and frees us from bondage. Please do not think that I believe Shiva is the supreme personality of godhead or anything like that. The Rigveda equates Agni with what we now call Brahman. The Ganapati Upanishad says that Ganesha is Creator, Preserver, Destroyer, Brahman, and Sat-Chit-Ananda. Also in the Rigveda it says that there is one true reality (ekam sat) and that the sages explain it in many ways. I believe that Brahman, as the Upanishads claim, is actually without form, names, and attributes. Just as the Self takes the shape of the body it is in, I believe that also Brahman takes on the name, form, pasttimes, significances, etc of the god or goddess that the individual perceives it as. They're all valid and all the same. None is superior to any other. Mythology should not be taken so seriously; it is here so that we can understand the more significant meanings of it and so that we can reflect on and thus love Brahman in any form we want to perceive it to be. Touching dollar bills, kissing them, and desiring more and more of them will keep a person attached to wealth. But looking within your heart and filling your mind with Lord Shiva will help free you from attachment. No disrespect for you as a devoted Vaishnava is intended at all. I do naman-smaranam of Shiva's names and Krishna's names. It's all the same thing. Om Shanti Shanti Shanti I was refering to Lord Siva as so magnanimous that he grants his followers what ever they desire. One of his names is 'Ashutosh' or one who is easily pleased. Once a devotee of Lord Siva, Vrikrasura requested for an unusual benediction from Lord Siva, that whomever he would touch, that person's head would fall off. Even though Lord Siva knew that such a benediction was not good, he considered the devotee's good quality and that he had worshiped him, and granted him the benediction. Later Vrikrasura tried to touch Lord Siva's head and was tricked by Lord Visnu into touching his own head. But this reflects the attitude of Lord Siva. If a devotee has a good quality, he magnifies it and ignores the bad qualities. He is the most beloved personality, he is universal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 Milly when I chant Krsna's name, occasionally I will see and feel Lord Shiva. I am not versed on scripture if it is an offence to make difference between Lord Siva and Lord Krsna, but here is my experience (please forgive my offences): When I meditate on Lord Krsna's pastimes things are soft and sweet. Very devotional sentiments develop through the meditation. When Lord Shiva manifests in my being, there is s subtle difference in my mood. I feel more yogic influence and shakti. I would not say dark, but deep and renounced, full of mysticism. What I am finding as awareness of meditation is developing, is that the subtle mood of Sri Krsna lila, is not only softer in my internal reality, but creates a softer experience in my external vision of God. This mood sits well because it is full of nurture and friendliness. Whereas when I see and feel Lord Shiva, I feel a potential for devastation (when I experience that mood). And I feel intuitively a great need for responsibility in such mood. Simplicity is more to my feel, so Vraj lila and Gaura lila is soft, simple, and full of loving reciprocation (satisfying to my soul). Also in Krsna mood there is no desire for material opulence, but only vision of bhakti. Maybe Milly, as we awaken gradually, we will realize which bhava we are being drawn too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 I am not versed on scripture if it is an offence to make difference between Lord Siva and Lord Krsna, but here is my experience (please forgive my offences): by bija This scripture reference came to mind, personally I find this (as a Gaudiya Vaisnava) a good grounding point, to offer all respects to both Lord Shiva and Lord Krishna. Quote: <table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Madhurya Kadambini by Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti Thakura - click here ....Those who desire to become one with the Lord are in a dangerous and suicidal situation, whereas those who perform devotional activities mechanically are not in such a precarious position, because they are able to relish a sweet and more intimate relationship with the Supreme Lord. Because both Lord Vishnu and Lord Siva (Sadasiva) embody the same Supreme Consciousness they are nondifferent. However, both Lord Vishnu and Lord Siva (Sadasiva) reside simultaneously on dual planes of nirguna (transcendence), and saguna (material nature). The unmotivated and transcendental devotees worship only the nirguna Supreme Consciousness, while the sakama fruitive workers can worship simply the saguna aspect of the Supreme Consciousness. This shows the inherent distinction between Lord Vishnu, Lord Siva, Lord Brahma, and the jivas. It is important to note that many Puranas propound the theory of Lord Vishnu and Lord Brahma being one. The analogy of the sun and the precious gem suryakanta mani, will help as to understand this oneness. In a sense, the sun and the reflected glory of the sun in the gem are the same. In some mahakalpas, or millenniums, the Supreme Lord empowers certain jivas to take up the position of Lord Siva or Lord Brahma. just as the jewel is dependent on the sun for its glory, Lord Brahma and Lord Siva are dependent on the Supreme Lord for theirs. This point has been confirmed in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (1.73): yas tu narayanam devam brahma-rudradi-daivataih samatvenaiva viksheta sa pashandi bhaved dhruvam The scriptures also state that if a person, after considering all these facts, adamantly equates Lord Vishnu with demigods like Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, and so on he is condemned as an atheist and an offender. The basis of this scriptural injunction lies in the fact that while Lord Brahma is generally an empowered jiva, Lord Siva at times is also an empowered jiva. Persons who have not researched deeply 'into this subject matter end up forming their own speculative ideas. They make such comments as, “Lord Vishnu is God and not Lord Siva”, or “Lord Siva is the Supreme, not Lord Vishnu.” They continue to say, 'We are undeviating devotees of Lord Vishnu; we do not care for Lord Siva”, and vice versa. Hence their inclination to polemics leads them to commit offences. Now, the only way they can mitigate their offences is to meet a devotee well-versed in this topic who is willing to instruct them properly. The confused can become enlightened about everyone's real position, including in which way Lord Siva and Lord Vishnu are qualitatively nondifferent. Such persons begin to repent of having committed such offences and sincerely take up chanting the Lord's holy name. In fact, it is this chanting that finally exonerates such people from their offence. Some say that these sections of the Vedas do not carry the slightest mention about the science of devotional service, so they are fit to be praised and appreciated only by mundane scholars. Those who lash out with such caustic criticism against those parts of the Vedas that propound the process of empirical knowledge and fruitive action will have to appease, with reconciliatory praises, those who follow such sections. Additionally, the offenders must chant the holy. name to absolve the fourth nama-aparadha: blaspheming the Vedic scriptures and its corollaries. One may ask why not indeed criticize those section emphasize empirical knowledge and fruitive action. The answer is because the scriptures are most merciful. By some unexpected good fortune if an offensive person meets a devotee who is knowledgeable about the Vedas, he will receive proper instructions on Vedic understanding. If the offender sincerely understands these instructions then he will truly appreciate the Vedas. Out of compassion for persons who are unfit for devotional service, who are duplicitous in action, and totally absorbed in mundane matters, the Vedas inspire them to become resolute in following its divine edicts, thus helping to uplift them. The Vedas benevolently draw these erring souls away from the pravrtti-marg (the path of worldly-mindedness) and towards nivrttt-marg ,(the path of detachment). Without having the realization that the Vedas are benevolent, and without possessing a deferential mood towards the sruti, one's offences cannot be mitigated. Thus we have discussed the prime cause of offences as well as how to absolve them..... </td></tr></tbody></table> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhaktajan Posted September 15, 2008 Report Share Posted September 15, 2008 As posted by Suchandra: Lord Siva is the best of all devotees. Therefore all devotees of Lord Krsna are also devotees of Lord Siva. Anyone who is a devotee of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very dear to Lord Siva. ...................................................................... As posted by bgita67: It makes absolutely no sense to me that Shiva's special purpose has to do only with material transations rather than anything else. Please do not think that I believe Shiva is the supreme personality of godhead or anything like that. Mythology should not be taken so seriously; it is here so that we can understand the more significant meanings of it and so that we can reflect on and thus love Brahman in any form we want to perceive it to be. I do naman-smaranam of Shiva's names and Krishna's names. It's all the same thing. ......................................................................... Bhaktajan's question: 'What is the purpose in Worship of Shiva according to sastra? I am ignorant of this! What attainment is Brahman? What are the pastimes of Lord Shiva? Do Shiva's Devotee aspire for his association, if yes Why does one seek the association of an ascetic who is performing private tapasya? Do we not disturb and cause an imposition upon Shiva by worshipping him?' <!-- / message --><!-- sig --> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted September 16, 2008 Report Share Posted September 16, 2008 As posted by Suchandra: Lord Siva is the best of all devotees. Therefore all devotees of Lord Krsna are also devotees of Lord Siva. Anyone who is a devotee of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very dear to Lord Siva. ...................................................................... As posted by bgita67: It makes absolutely no sense to me that Shiva's special purpose has to do only with material transations rather than anything else. Please do not think that I believe Shiva is the supreme personality of godhead or anything like that. Mythology should not be taken so seriously; it is here so that we can understand the more significant meanings of it and so that we can reflect on and thus love Brahman in any form we want to perceive it to be. I do naman-smaranam of Shiva's names and Krishna's names. It's all the same thing. ......................................................................... Bhaktajan's question: 'What is the purpose in Worship of Shiva according to sastra? I am ignorant of this! What attainment is Brahman? What are the pastimes of Lord Shiva? Do Shiva's Devotee aspire for his association, if yes Why does one seek the association of an ascetic who is performing private tapasya? Do we not disturb and cause an imposition upon Shiva by worshipping him?' <!-- / message --><!-- sig --> Thanks Bhaktajan, good points, for sincere Vaisnavas like yourself things look slightly different then when making statements in general about Lord Siva. Lord Siva did not appear in Caitanya lila as many others did and was rather known as having incarnated as Sankaracarya. So many great personalities appeared to assist Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu but not Lord Siva. Lord Siva is an expansion of Krsna, but he cannot act as Krsna, nor can we derive the spiritual restoration from Lord Siva that we derive from Krsna. Lord Siva, in association with maya, has many forms, which are generally numbered at eleven. The essential difference is that Lord Siva has a connection with material nature, but Visnu or Lord Krsna has nothing to do with material nature. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.88.3) it is stated that Lord Siva is a combination of three kinds of transformed consciousness known as vaikarika, taijasa and tamasa. When Agni, the god of fire gave Dasharath, the king of Ayodhya, a bowl of sacred sweet food to share among his wives so that they may have divine children, an eagle snatched a part of the pudding and dropped it where Anjana was meditating, and Pavana, the god of wind delivered the drop to her outstretched hands. After she took the divine dessert, she gave birth to Hanuman. Thus Lord Shiva incarnated as a monkey, and was born as Hanuman to Anjana, by the blessings of Pavana, who thus became Hanuman's godfather. Siva incarnated as Durvasa - a Rudra form of Siva. Rudra is fiery and angry toward those that fall off the path of Dharma. Durvasa adopted a similar attitude and was quick to curse those he believed did not follow the path of Dharma. As an incarnation of Siva he could control and discipline his ten thousand discipline and teach them the real truth. In the story of Rishi Durvasa and Ambarisha Maharaja, Rishi Durvasa was chased by the Sudarshana chakra of Lord Vishnu throughout the universe after offending the Lord's pure devotee Ambarisha. The earliest religious activity in Nepal appears to have involved the Pashupata cult, and the worship of a local deity known as Pashupati, Lord of Beasts, who later became identified as Siva. Throughout Nepal’s history, Siva incarnated as Pashupati has been venerated as the protector and patron deity of the country. To this day, Pashupatinath is the principal Hindu temple and cremation ground in the Valley and one of the most sacred sites in Nepal. (Nityananda Institute Nepal) Siva incarnated as the brahmin Sankaracarya falsified the Vedas in the sense of Mayavada philosophy to entice the humans to atheism. According to a legend in Devi Purana, Mysore was ruled by the buffalo-demon Mahishasura. Hence, the place was called Mahishuru (now Mysore), the city of the demon king Mahisha. Goddess Parvati, the consort of Lord Siva incarnated as Chamundi (also known as Mahishasuramardini) and killed the demon King on top of the hill. After killing Mahishasura, the Goddess resided on the hill top where she is worshipped even today with reverence and devotion. Lord Siva incarnated as Lord Bhairav. "Bhairava" means terrifying, and Lord Siva in his fearsome aspect is called Lord Bhairav. He is pictured with blue or black skin, bulging eyes, and a mustache. He has a dog as his divine vehicle. He is usually associated with Tantra. Worshiping Lord Bhairav bestows victory over enemies, materialistic comforts, and success. The origin of Lord Bhairav can be traced to the legend of Siva and Sati. This bronze statue in the Government Museum in Chennai represents the Lord Siva incarnated as Nataraja, the cosmic dancer. As he dances the universe into existence, he simultaneously crushes a demon, which symbolizes ignorance, underfoot. Lord Siva incarnated as Vishnuswami and founded the Rudra sampradaya. "From Vishnuswami's teachings I will accept two elements; the sentiment of exclusive dependence on Krishna and the path of raga-marga or spontaneous devotion." Lord Siva incarnated as Sri Anjaneya. In Karimnagar district pilgrims perform Abhishekam to fulfill their vows and worship Kondagattu Anjaneya. Sri Caitanya explained that on the order of Vishnu, Lord Siva incarnated as Adi Sankaracarya for the purpose of giving misleading interpretations of the Vedanta-sutras for the purpose of promoting atheism in Kali Yuga. Furthermore, in the Padma Purana Lord Siva tells Parvati: srinu devi pravakshyami tamasani yatha-kramam yesham sravana-matrena patityam jnaninam api apartham sruti-vakyanam darsayal loka-garhitam karma-svarupa-tyajyatvam atra ca pratipadyate sarva-karma-paribhramsan naishkarmyam tatra cocyate paratma-jivayor aikyam mayatra pratipadyate “My dear wife, hear my explanations of how I have spread ignorance through Mayavada philosophy. Simply by hearing it, even an advanced scholar will fall down. In this philosophy, which is certainly very inauspicious for people in general, I have misrepresented the real meaning of the Vedas and recommended that one give up all activities in order to achieve freedom from karma. In this Mayavada philosophy I have described the jivatma and Paramatma to be one and the same.” Lord Caitanya admitted that Sankaracarya was an incarnation of Lord Siva, and it is known that Lord Siva is one of the greatest devotees (a mahajana) of the Bhagavata school. There are twelve great authorities on devotional service, and Lord Siva is one of them. Why, then, did he adopt the process of Mayavadi philosophy? The answer is given in Padma Purana, where Lord Siva states: mayavadam asac-chastram pracchannam bauddham ucyate mayaiva kalpitam devi kalau brahmana-rupina "The Mayavadi philosophy is veiled Buddhism." In other words, the voidist philosophy of Buddha is more or less repeated in the Mayavadi philosophy of impersonalism, although the Mayavadi philosophy claims to be directed by the Vedic conclusions. Lord Siva, however, admits that this philosophy is manufactured by him in the age of Kali in order to mislead the atheists. "Actually the Supreme Personality of Godhead has His transcendental body," Lord Siva states. "But I describe the Supreme as impersonal. I also explain the Vedanta-sutra according to the same principles of Mayavadi philosophy." Could be that Vaisnavas are therefore not so much interested in Lord Siva, although Lord Siva says, he did everything on the order of Vishnu. At the same time Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's movement especially aims at defeating the Mayavada conclusion about the Absolute Truth. So to define a clear point of view when it comes to Lord Siva is not so easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 Another interesting point, at Mahesa-dhama, the liberated soul does not get an opportunity to serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead there, has to return to Bhurloka. As said again and again, planet Earth is the only place for performing devotional service and the time after Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu's appearance the most auspicious.. ei tina dhamera haya kṛṣṇa adhisvara goloka-paravyoma — prakṛtira para TRANSLATION "Krsṇa is the supreme proprietor of all dhamas, including Goloka-dhama, Vaikuṇṭha-dhama and Devi-dhama. The paravyoma and Goloka-dhama are beyond Devi-dhama, this material world. PURPORT When a living entity is liberated from Devi-dhama but does not know of the opulence of Hari-dhama, he is placed in Mahesa-dhama, which is between the other two dhamas. The liberated soul does not get an opportunity to serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead there; therefore although this Mahesa-dhama is Lord Siva's dhama and above Devī-dhāma, it is not the spiritual world. The spiritual world begins with Hari-dhama, or Vaikuṇṭhaloka. Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 21.54 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.