Book 5- Shrimad Bhagavatam

[RadhaMukunda]

Please take a look at the language of the Puranas in general. Then take a look of the language of the Shrimad Bhagavatam and compare it with the language in the fifth book of the Srimad Bhagavatam. Also look at the description of the planets and their size and distance.

 

Is this fifth canto a later addition to the purana? The information doesn't make any sense. Srila Vyasadeva was the son of Parashara, he should have been learned in Astronomy and Astrology. How could he write that the moon is twice as big as the sun? Another thing, the language of the fifth canto is completely different from all the other verses in the same purana.

 

Can we come to the conclusion that the fifth canto is a later addition?

[bhaktajan]

Yeah little bit. Little bit.

Pali, prakrit, Pinchasalt --that's it --soup to nuts.

 

Do you own a telescope? And a sanskrit library?

 

How have you confirmed with guru, sadhu, and sastra and your own two eyes with a measuring tape? Or do you beleive everything you read in the sport pages?

 

Can we come to the conclusion that we can not confirm by relying on publically funded University's Professor's pet-project funding grant application plea.

 

Can we come to the conclusion that the world is composed of Cheaters & the Cheated?

[RadhaMukunda]

Get lost.

[bhaktajan]

I feel your pain.

 

My Advise is: Prana-yoga. [apparenty jnana-yoga is causing you grief.]

 

Hatha yoga is meant to assist blood circulation to rid spent blood (carbon-dioxide) and replace it instantly with fresh oxiginated blood ---all via the respiratory process. Deep breathing is to cleanse the internal muscle cells of acidity (carbon-dioxide).

 

hope all conflicted positions are resolved without angst,

bhaktajan

 

PS: re-read my posts and you'll notice the profundities after relinquishing your massive ego. What does sastra say about "ego"? Re-read it.

[RadhaMukunda]

Re-read your own messages. You are indeed very intelligent, if you can make sense of your own writings.

[bija]

Give this a go RadhaMukunda. The sages had a different view than us 21st folk. This video is at least worth some consideration:

 

 

<embed id="VideoPlayback" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=-538297875584368796&hl=en&fs=true" style="width: 400px; height: 326px;" allowfullscreen="true">

[RadhaMukunda]

Thanks for posting that video. I haven't watched it yet. But isn't Richard Thompson the guy who claims that the moon landings were a hoax. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_moon_landing_hoax_accusations I have his book: "Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy." Ancient Indian astronomy is actually very accurate compared with modern data, but what's written in the fifth book of the bhagavatam doesn't make much sense. Even if this verses are original, then:

 

“Yuktiyuktam vacho grahyam baladapi shukadapi,

 

yuktiheenam vachasthyajyam vrudhadadapi shukadapi”

 

i.e. That which is consistent with rational thinking ought to be accepted

whether proceeding from a boy or even from a parrot, and that which is

inconsistent with right thinking ought to be rejected even if emanating from an

old man or from the great sage Shukadev himself.

 

But I would say that these particular verses were later additions, because they are inconsistent with the language of the rest of the Bhagavata Purana and other Puranas.

[bija]

Thank you for your open heart RadhaMukunda. This video is very interesting and helped my understanding in regards to Canto Five. See what you think...

 

Richard L. Thompson (Sadaputa dasa) left his body this week. Many of us will be eternally grateful to him, for nurturing the fragile creeper of faith in our hearts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy Book -

click here

 

 

6.c.1. The Moon Flight

 

Shrila Prabhupada has often said that the astronauts have never actually visited the moon. Since this is a very controversial topic, we will discuss his various statements on this issue at some length. As we will see, these statements mainly fall into two categories. These are (1) that the demigods will not allow human beings to enter higher planets because human beings are not qualified to do so, and (2) that the astronauts have not experienced the celestial opulences actually existing on the moon, and therefore they could not have gone there.

In SB 1.5.18p Shrila Prabhupada states, "Some are trying to reach the moon or other planets by some mechanical arrangement.... But it is not to happen. By the law of the Supreme, different places are meant for different grades of living beings according to the work they have performed." He has said that the moon, Venus, and the sun are inaccessible to the "inexperienced scientists" because they are higher planets that can be attained only by works done in the mode of goodness (SB 2.8.14p). He has described the attempt of the scientists of this earth to reach the moon as being as demonic as the attack of Rahu (SB 5.24.3p), and has said that such travel will be barred by Indra, who has a standard policy of preventing unqualified people from reaching the heavenly planets (SB 8.11.5p). Thus the immigration policy of the demigods is one important reason Shrila Prabhupada gives for why the astronauts could not have gone to the moon.

Shrila Prabhupada frequently uses the fact that the astronauts did not experience the celestial conditions on the moon as evidence that they did not go there. Thus he points out that the astronauts did not meet anyone on the moon, "what to speak of meeting the moon's predominating deity" (SB 4.22.54p). In SB 6.4.6p and 8.5.34p he comments that since the moon-god is the presiding deity of vegetation, there must be vegetation on the moon, and yet the scientists say that it is a barren desert. In SB 2.3.11p, 8.2.14p, and 8.22.32p, he cites the scientists' lack of knowledge of the variety of life on other planets as evidence that the moon trip failed. And in SB 10.3.27p he argues that those who reach the moon attain a life of 10,000 years, and thus the astronauts could not have gone.

Shrila Prabhupada makes several statements suggesting that higher-dimensional travel is needed to reach the moon. Thus in SB 1.9.45p he refers to the futility of trying to use mechanical spacecraft, and says that finer methods are needed. In SB 3.32.3p he points out that "it is not possible to reach the moon by any material vehicle like a sputnik," even though it hardly seems impossible to hurl a gross material object over a few thousand miles of space, or even several million. Finally, he indicates that to reach the orbit of the moon, it is first necessary to cross the Manasa Lake and Sumeru Mountain (LB, p. 48). As we have already pointed out, no ordinary trajectory to the moon will pass by these particular landmarks.

We therefore suggest that when Shrila Prabhupada says that the astronauts did not go to the moon, he is referring to higher-dimensional travel to the celestial realm of the moon. From the Vedic point of view it is natural to interpret "travel to the moon" as travel in this sense. After all, if the moon is actually a celestial planet, then a journey to a place full of nothing but dust and rocks certainly couldn't count as a trip to the moon.

In an interview with a reporter in 1968 Shrila Prabhupada stressed that the human body is not suited to live in the atmosphere of the moon. When asked whether spacesuits could make up for this deficiency, he said that if we could use scientific methods to change the nature of our bodies, then we might be able to visit the moon. But he regarded this possibility as very remote, and said that the spacesuits would not be sufficient.

When the reporter asked whether the inhabitants of the moon would be visible or invisible, Shrila Prabhupada said that they would be "almost invisible," with subtle material bodies (CN, p. 179). This implies that the world of the demigods, including their dwellings, food, conveyances, and so on, would also be invisible to us. By definition, such a world is higher-dimensional: it is invisible to us but not to the beings living in it. To enter into it, we would indeed require more than a spacesuit: we would also need an "invisible" bodily form that could interact with the world of the lunar demigods.

This leaves open the question of whether or not the astronauts traveled in three-dimensional space to the moon that we directly perceive in the sky. We have pointed out that a higher-dimensional location can have a three-dimensional projection, just as a three-dimensional office address in New York City (given by avenue, street, and floor) has a two-dimensional projection (namely avenue and street). Thus the astronauts may have gone to the three-dimensional location of the moon without making the higher-dimensional journey needed to actually reach the kingdom of Candra. This would be comparable to visiting Vrindavana on the earth without being able to perceive the spiritual world that is actually there.

This is a definite possibility, although we do not know for certain whether it is true. A second possibility is that the astronauts may have been deluded by the demigods at some stage of their journey and may never have reached the gross moon planet. Thus, Shrila Prabhupada has suggested that the astronauts may have been diverted to the planet Rahu (SB 4.29.69p). A third possibility, of course, is that the true story of the moon trip has been obscured by manmade illusions. Shrila Prabhupada has expressed doubt as to the honesty of the moon explorers, both in the Bhagavatam 5.17.4p and in private conversations.

This brings us to the question of whether or not there was a moon hoax. Obviously, this is a very touchy question, and we have no definite evidence that settles it one way or another. Here we will simply give one piece of evidence suggesting that published reports of the moon landings may not have been fully honest. Figure 18 shows an official published picture of the Apollo lunar module on the surface of the moon (MSF, p. 397). The clearly visible footprints confirm the astronauts' statements that the lunar surface was soft and dusty. The rocket engine of the lunar module can be seen beneath the craft, a few feet above the surface.

As the lunar module descended to the surface of the moon, these rockets would have been firing continuously to break the vehicle's downward motion and also support its weight. Under the lunar gravitational pull (which is 1/6 as strong as the earth's gravity) the module would have weighed some 1,300 kg after expending most of its descent-stage propellant (MSF, p. 298). The question is, With the engine firing with enough power to support this much weight and break the module's fall, why do we see no disturbance caused by the rocket exhaust in the soil beneath the engine? The engine was supposedly shut down when the vehicle was about 1.52 meters above the surface (MSF, p. 300). One would think that its exhaust would have left some recognizable streaks or markings on the soft lunar soil. Yet none can be seen in this picture or in other, similar ones.

In summary, Shrila Prabhupada rejected the idea that men had visited the moon on the grounds that these men were not qualified to enter a higher planet and that their descriptions of their journey indicated they had not done so. He also indicated that their gross mechanical methods were not suitable for entering a higher planet. Apart from these firm conclusions, Shrila Prabhupada mentioned a few tentative possibilities as to what might have actually transpired on the moon flight, and he expressed general doubts as to the honesty of the people involved with space exploration. In this area there are many opportunities for cheating, and there is evidence suggesting that some cheating has taken place. However, to obtain conclusive proof of large-scale cheating would be very difficult, and possibly dangerous.

[bija]

From Subjective Evolution of Consciousness Book by Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja:

 

download here

 

....Dr. Singh: Then God is the magician and we are his subjects?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Not only is he a magician, but the Super-magician. He is not merely the

kind of magician that is within our experience.

 

Dr. Murphey: What is the role of Yogamaya, the Lord's internal potency?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: She is found in the eternal company of Krsna. In our conception of divinity,

purusa/prakrti, the masculine/feminine, are existing together. Potent and potency, substance

and potency, are inconceivably interconnected. Otherwise, if we conceive of the Supreme

Soul as existing independent of any potency, that will be the brahman conception of Sankaracarya:

ultimate consciousness as non-differentiated oneness. So the Absolute Truth includes both

potent and potency - purusa/prakrti - consciousness with energy.

Actually there are three main elements to be traced within divinity: jnana, bala, and kriya. The

eternal aspect of the absolute whole is divided in three ways: energy, consciousness, and ecstasy.

Thinking, willing and feeling. Sat, cit, ananda. Sat, the potency for maintaining existence, is the

potency of Baladeva (bala). Cit, the consciousness aspect, is Vasudeva (jnana). And ananda,

ecstatic feeling, is Radhika (kriya). Jnana, bala, kriya (knowledge, strength, feeling); sat, cit,

ananda (eternity, cognition, bliss); sandhini, samvit, hladini (existence, realization, ecstasy): Baladeva,

Krsna, Radharani. These are the three phases of advaya-jnana, or the one whole. The one

whole can be thought of in its primary evolved stage in three ways: main consciousness, main

energy, and main satisfaction. In three phases we are to conceive ofthat ultimate reality. It is there:

jnana, bala, kriya ca. Thinking, feeling, willing. Sat, cit, ananda. Satyam, sivam, sundaram

(eternity, auspiciousness, beauty). And these three principles are expressed through evolution and

dissolution in the eternal and non-eternal.

 

These aspects of theism have been dealt with in a very scientific way in the Sri Krsna Samhita of

Bhaktivinode Thakura. Once, I considered from this point of view the question of the planets in

Vedic cosmology. We see that by the movement of the different planets, a solar eclipse is caused

by the moon's shadow falling upon the Earth. And yet in the scriptures it has been described that

during an eclipse, the planet Rahu is devouring the sun or the moon. When Srila Bhaktisiddhanta

Saraswati Thakura was in Puri during his last days and an eclipse came, one devotee who was

supposed to know siddhanta, the conclusions of scripture, was sitting next to Prabhupada. He

suddenly ridiculed the idea given in the Bhagavatam that during a solar or lunar eclipse Rahu

devours the sun or moon.

 

I could not tolerate that such a remark should be passed in regard to the Bhagavatam and argued

that what Srimad-Bhagavatam has stated is not to be taken lightly. I offered what seemed like

some far-fetched support. I said that in his Jaiva Dharma, Bhaktivinoda Thakura has created so

many characters, but I think that they are not imaginary. What he has written might have occurred

during some other millennium (kalpa), or day of Brahma, and that has now come to the surface.

In this way I went on to support the cosmological position of the Bhagavatam by arguing

that what is necessary to prove reality must also have some real position. It cannot but be. In this

way my argument went and Prabhupada supported me. In understanding the position of the planet

Rahu, what Sukadeva and Vyasadeva have said is geographically impossible, but their statements

are there in Srimad-Bhagavatam, and the literal meaning of the scriptures is not to be taken

lightly. Considering the importance of the literal meaning of scripture, Bhaktivedanta Swami

Maharaja presented Bhagavad-gita As 1t Is. I thought, "How am I to prove what the Bhagavatam

says? I don't know. But what is said in Srimad-Bhagavatam must be true. I have faith in that."

There are so many statements on the cosmology of the universe in the scriptures. The Aryans, the

spiritually developed men of former times, used to see everything as consciousness. They saw

that the shadow is also conscious. The shadow, abhasa, is also considered to be a stage of consciousness.

Only through that shadowy stage of consciousness can we come to the material conception

of a thing. Before we reach the conception of a shadow, we must pass through some

mental stage, and personification may be attached to that mental stage. The personification of the

shadow may be referred to as "Rahu."

 

The soul approaches matter, the material world, but before that, he must pass through a shadowy

stage of consciousness called cidabhasa. Consciousness passes through the shadow level of consciousness

into matter, non-consciousness. And that shadow stage of consciousness has its personality.

It is also conscious, and may be known as "Rahu."

 

Every material conception presupposes a spiritual conception of that particular thing. The shadow

through which consciousness must pass in order to perceive things as material has personality,

and in the Bhagavatam, the rsis, the seers of the truth, are addressing it as Rahu. Because

they are highly developed, they find the personal aspect of existence everywhere. What we perceive

to be dead matter, they perceive to be conscious. Therefore, they always take the personal

perspective.

 

The soul, when going to experience any material conception, will have to pass through a medium

which influences his consciousness to see things as material. What is concrete matter is

unknown. It is a mere effect of consciousness. As everything material must have some conscious

origin, or origin in personal consciousness, there must be a personal conception of the sun, the

moon, the Earth, and all the planets. Before we reach the conception of a shadow or any other

object, the soul has to pass through a conscious stage. That stage has some spiritual existence as

a person. Therefore the Bhagavatam refers to the sun, the moon, and the planet Rahu, as persons.

Everything - the Earth, the moon, the stars, the planets - has a personal conception. In the background

of what we can perceive with our dull senses, everything that is said to be matter, there

must be a personal conception. Without the influence of a personal conception, consciousness

cannot reach the stage of gross matter.

 

Therefore, in the ancient scriptures we find that the great sages and rsis are always addressing

everything within this world as a person. Although to us it is dead matter, they have considered

them as persons. Why? The matter is rather the shadow of the personal entity. The personal, conscious

entity is more real, and the matter we perceive through dimmed consciousness is less real.

 

Dr. Murphey: So that shadow is Rahu?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: When we conceive of the personal representation of that shadow, it will

be known as Rahu. Everything is conscious. The shadow, its effect - everything. When the moon

is between the sun and the Earth, the shadow of the moon is coming here, and what is coming is

also conscious. Everything is conscious first - then there is matter. From the personal conception

things evolve to gross consciousness. It is all personal. So the rsis with such a vision of reality

used to address everything as a person the trees, the mountains, the sun, the moon, the ocean.

When pure consciousness is coming to experience pure matter, then there must first be some

mixed stage, and that is a person suffering in karma. Person means they are not a fully developed

spiritual person at present, but in a mixed condition. So what the rsis are saying - that everything

is a person - is real; it is not a concoction.

 

Everything is conscious. As the present scientists say everything is matter, we have real cause to

think that everything is conscious. Whatever you see does not matter; we can directly feel what

is in our nature. That is conscious. Our consciousness may be in a developed or degraded position,

but consciousness is nearer to us. We feel our mental energy only.

 

Dr. Murphey: This is a bit difficult for us to fully grasp. When we see color, what are we actually

seeing?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: That is a mental stage.

 

Dr. Singh: What is the reality of that object?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Reality - that is in the soul. Only the soul is real; the seer is reality. The

subject is real. And whatever the subject feels also emanates from the subject.

 

Dr. Singh: But are the objects the subject perceives also persons? When we are seeing the color

red, now is red also a personality?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Everything has its representation in the original, personal, conscious,

spiritual reality. Otherwise, there is no possibility of its being reflected into this plane as matter.

First there is consciousness and then when it is in a more gross condition, it appears to be matter.

In the study of ontology it is taught that when studying a particular thing, although we can know

that it has certain attributes to the eye, and that it appears to the ear in a particular way, these are

all appearances. Independent of appearances, the ontological aspect of a thing - what it is, the

reality of a thing - is unknown and unknowable. My contention is that when consciousness is

going to feel non-conscious matter it will have to pass through a conscious area to meet the material

object. So the full perception of that material thing cannot but be conscious; and consciousness

always indicates person. First there is conception and then the material idea.

 

The conscious world is very near and the material world is very far off. Therefore the great rsis,

whose thinking is highly developed, address whatever they find within the environment as if they

are all persons. In the Vedas, the ancient scriptural literature of India, we find that the saints and

sages are always in the midst of so many persons; in the background everything is a person.....

[bija]

As we come closer to our original identity, what we once perceived as a tangible reality, may appear differently. For example I have a developed synesthesia, where subtle realities are manifest in my vision, and also a contact with the unconscious mind (both individual and collective).

 

Fourteen years previously my world was made of gross elements only (until a transformation). So it is evident for me what Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja is saying is truth. The soul is in the marginal line between spirit and matter. Matter is made up of earth, water, air, fire and ether...then mind, intelligence, and false ego. Each strata being above the other.

 

So infact, if we are identified with a higher strata...we will see the lower strata in a much different way than one on a lower strata. For example I can see ether (psychic level) and the unconscious mind (on occasion) due to being situated on a subtle level of mind (after an NDE).

 

All this is perceivable due to the nature of consciousness. Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja is pointing to these very truths, as is Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Maharaja. These men were advanced souls, situated on a very high strata (of spiritual awareness).

 

The material world, and our vision of it is in constant change...as we take the journey of a subjective evolution. Attainable for all sincere practicioners.

[AncientMariner]

 

Please take a look at the language of the Puranas in general. Then take a look of the language of the Shrimad Bhagavatam and compare it with the language in the fifth book of the Srimad Bhagavatam. Also look at the description of the planets and their size and distance.

 

Is this fifth canto a later addition to the purana? The information doesn't make any sense. Srila Vyasadeva was the son of Parashara, he should have been learned in Astronomy and Astrology. How could he write that the moon is twice as big as the sun? Another thing, the language of the fifth canto is completely different from all the other verses in the same purana.

 

Can we come to the conclusion that the fifth canto is a later addition?

 

 

Don't know the answer to your question and to be honest my faith in Krishna Consciousness has been diminished over time to some degree just because Krishna Consciousness from my perspective is basically the same old tired arguments over and over and people endlessly arguing over such things. When you add that to the fact that all the rules and regulations of Krishna Consciousness are so difficult I often find myself disinterested anymore. That being said I still find the 5th Canto to be the most enchanting book I have read of Srila Prabhupada's Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

 

The story of Lord Rsabhadeva being the emperor of the Earth and then renouncing the world and then wandering around like a madman rolling around in his own stool and urine is a really cool story. How can you not like a God that incarnates and eventually wanders around like an idiotic madman. I also love the story of Jada Bharata because it seems to defy all the logical conventions of Krishna Consciousness. Jada Bharatas father tried and tried to train Jada Bharata to become the perfect brahmana but Jada Bharata acted like a deaf dumb idiot so his father would quit trying to train him to become the perfect brahmana and would leave him alone so he could think about Krishna. Both of those are really cool stories.

[Amlesh]

Me too the Fifth Canto changed the course of my life in a more relaxing and no-worries way.

[bija]

Sounds good Amlesh...five, half way to ten:pray: (om shanti).

 

The world would be brilliant with more Jada Bharata's visible to the eyes...love that story too, heaps!

[Amlesh]

 

Sounds good Amlesh...five, half way to ten:pray: (om shanti).

 

The world would be brilliant with more Jada Bharata's visible to the eyes...love that story too, heaps!

Yes Bija, you bet it.

I remember when I read about Jada Bharata... It really removes all types of fear.

 

Woh.... I feel like re-reading that part.

[RadhaMukunda]

...

[AcyutanandaDas]

what do people think about that movie clip, is it correct or what?

[bija]

Here is my feeling about the movie. The absolute is beyond my grasp, but can be felt in the heart realm (intuited). My rational mind would disregard many scriptures, infact such was the case for many years (plagued by doubt).

 

This movie simply pointed out something I did not see. That the compiler or compilers of these scriptures, had a totally different world view than me, and a much more profound vision into what is.

 

Those proofs are still not going to convince my heart. Krsna only gives Krsna. Some may call that sentimental faith - I judge it by the fruit (and devotion) that grows.

 

The Bhagavatam's own call is to extract the essence from various flowers, like a bee. Can it be that there we will find truth, and still be able to glorify scripture as literary incarnation. I think so.