regulations and vaisnavism

[alwayslearning]

i'm new to this message board and wanted to ask some questions regarding vaisnavism. i am attracted to about 99% of what ISKCON has to say, and have begun developing appreciation of Krsna... however, i am repelled by the negativity in regards to drugs, sex, etc. it seems that the strict regulations are the backbone to gaudiya vaisnavism and especially the hare krishna movement. and yet ISKCON is the most accessible form of vaisnavism in the west. are there any alternatives? i am not looking for a free pass for indulgence, i agree with the idea that one should not live in craving for sex, drugs, etc. but i have a hard time identifying with a group that so often negatively reinforces these regulations. are there any similar groups that do not stress regulations as much or as often? what are the regulations found in pushtmarg? can anybody help me out?

[thehat]

Hey, I'll try my best to answer your question to the best of my ability - but you'd be better of talking to an ISKCON devotee about it or something. They'd be likely to know more about the issue.

These things like intoxication and sex are detrimental to ones own spiritual progress. So the regulations are pretty much in place just for your own benefit and well being. It will be hard to accept at first but it is very much true.

 

What is your situation, do you feel you won't be able to give those things up or do you not want to give them up?

 

Some of my own personal experience is as follows; When I had first started practising I was hesitant to stop the intoxication and sex (although I wasn't even having sex ). The meat eating I was able to stop very quickly within a week or two, Krishna just took the taste away. Similarly Krishna took away the taste from intoxication and sex life. And it's not like I miss those things, actually the fact I could give up those things and not care for them in the end is a great display of Krishna's mercy. He makes it so easy for us to come to him, and speaking for myself - Intoxication and sex would have certainly been detrimental to my approaching Krishna.

 

Hope that helps.

[bhaktajan]

You have recognized the goal.

 

The ego and social reinforement [via commercial & pop-art-propaganda] has the effect of convincing your false ego that you must "yearn" for Intoxication and sex least you are "not a normal human".

 

We do yearn for Intoxication and sex but it is not a genuine desire--it is the idea that, "I must yearn for these things lest I deny the status quo."

 

We sub-consciously [versus physiologically] re-inforce our own Ego & Mind to covet these things --because we have been acculturated to partake in it--just as a Brahmacari [monk] may conclude that he too can give up monkhood because everyone else would cheer him on and also know one will object and he can blend in with the crowd without 'misgivings'.

 

I digress. Any Indian Yoga Society you follow will not be following you around in your personal life.

 

In-Temple living and Initiation from a Guru is when vows are made and expected to stop lusty habits --in the long run lust must be exhausted by the time you reach old age so that retirement to ashram-life will then be without lusty yearnings.

 

Gradually we must self-educate ourselves in the art of sublimating lust and controlling senses to the point where we are sure of what is temporary versus what is permenent in pursuit of self-realization.

[alwayslearning]

thanks bhaktajan,

 

i understand what you're saying perfectly. you see, before i found Krsna i had a long (years and years) background involving radical concepts of feminism, anarchism, etc. despite the opinions of some, these are actually very developed concepts by people like chomsky, bell hooks, McDavid, etc etc etc. emersing myself in these ideas helped me develop emotionally and psychologically, but not, obviously, spiritually. i'm not longer concerned with changing the world like i was before, but i have learned to not objectify women, to not crave for sex like an animal, to control my baser insticts... bell hooks' idea of love without clinging, love without lust or posessing, or any negative oppressiveness at all. this does not lead me to an agreeance with SP's constant negative reinforcement of 'sense enjoyment.' in fact, he continuously mistranslates the sanskrit to mean 'sense enjoyment' when it instead means 'attachment,' etc. there is a difference. this is why SP's versions are not used in academic circles--they do not properly reflect the source material. there is much more information to be found regarding this topic at:(oops, can't post URLs yet... search google for hare Krishna Women. it's a blog. if anyone's interested. it's a nice site that i ran into. she knows sanksrit and calls out the mis-translations. these were changed because SP knew the average american was about as far away from lust as a, well, any two things that are never apart. he was also sent with the goal of starting a mission. societies need rules to keep members.

 

i have sex from time to time. i don't deny it, and i'm not ashamed of it. i don't think Krsna gave me this body to not use it and enjoy it in thanks for his gift... but how many times do i think about sex on a daily basis when i'm not actually engaged in sex? none. because it is the lust that i have worked on. when i have sex it is a physical expression of love. and thus transcends the physical. and that love is not only love for partner, but love for the act, the bodies, and everything else that is a part of Krsna.

 

we need to stop being afraid of ourselves. we are part & parcel with Krsna, and it is our lack of surrendering to Him, of not turning to Him in ALL that we do that keeps us from Him. so thus it works for the celibate and the non-celibate alike. some people may have a harder time with sex, i admit that... i have never been a particularly sexually-charged person. some people may need these repressive yogic tactics. but bhakti is emotion, and repression can turn a heart to stone.

 

i recomment the book "natural bhakti" by Ram Das, one of Narayana Maharaja's disciples. there is a free .pdf linked here: go to chakra dot org, search natural bhakti, link from first one that comes up.

 

ISKCON tends to have the opinion that there are only 3,000 or so initiates outside of India because the rest of the world is just so awful. no. it's because the rest of the world has grown out of the need of negatively reinforced oppression hundreds of years ago. so many times i read these so-called 'enlightened' personalities from ISKCON trash talking karmis, etc. this is so rajasic. this negativity and attachment to repulsion is what Krsna HIMSELF refers to in the Gita as a sign of a conditioned, attached soul.

 

let's stop being afraid! Krsna is our benefactor! He is our well-wisher! He LOVES us and only wants us to turn our sight towards Him. And turning our sight towards Him is NOT turning away from the physical! He is the physical just as He is the spiritual. He is the All-Pervasive Supreme Personality! He is in sex, whether you have a puritanical background and want to admit it our not. He is in every action!

 

 

Hare Krsna!