spreading lord shiva awareness across world

[bhaktajan]

atanu,

 

yes I can & will soon.

[mind-you, I have only been issueing wee bits of revelatory-sastric references --so as to give you time between each progressive posting to assimulate, in your daily life, the lessons that emerge in stages on your way to seeing the complete story as contained in the Vedas.]

 

First, YOU MUST prepare yourself for the coming "change of Heart" that you will undergo whist being revealed Godhead, Uttama-Parusha-pushan-rupa.

 

Such realization includes purging of multiple departments of daily life & consciousness so as to allow for your Persona to evolve to accept that you are made in the image of God and that the "Maya" is recognized as an assisting agent to you to rise above samsara and the Void and further demensions of neisciance.

 

Second, I'll get back to you as soon as possible--as providence allows.

[bhaktajan]

 

bhaktajan,

dont think that u r intelligent than others.i knew that u dont know anything other than bhagvat geetha.the way u send photos of the small childrens laughing,do u think it is the right way to spread ur spirituality? i am repeatedly telling u.i appreciate ur bhakthi towards lord krishna.u have the rights to speak about lord krishna but u dont have rights to speak about any other god.u r discouraging every one's bhakthi.u r adding ur sins by sending these kind of messages.there is no mercy for that.u will learn it in future.i know about ISCON.they have a separate session to speak wrong things about other god's especially lord shiva.if this is gonna continue,even lord krishna cant help u guys.it is very easy to irritate others.all the gods work for dharma.if u dont understand this simple conept,u r not even fit to be a spiritual guy.i am repeatedly tellng u,its ur attitude.i mean ISCON's attitude.but remember one thing.dont think that v r fools to listen to ur words and get converted.v r more intelligent then u.

 

Parantu, I am not degrading any other Demigod!

 

There is only one "Persona Suprema de Dio" One Almighty God.

 

This principle is exhibited in all afairs and situations--the foundation of a building is buried and the wall stand atop the foundation--it is the chief person who is the householder and is the one who answers as head of household.

 

And the priciple extends from there--the Local government above the Householder, The Central Government, and then also, empirial authorities and Demigods and then Godhead.

 

We argue about the disciplic chain of command of those above our sphere of influence?? Or about the path our ancestors must pass before reaching safety in ... Vaikuntha.

 

The Uttama-sloka exists & the Maha-mantra exists and our Past-relatives were the very same Devas we harken to--Do Not Get Lost!!!

[atanu]

 

atanu,

 

yes I can & will soon.

[mind-you, I have only been issueing wee bits of revelatory-sastric references --so as to give you time between each progressive posting to assimulate, in your daily life, the lessons that emerge in stages on your way to seeing the complete story as contained in the Vedas.]

 

First, YOU MUST prepare yourself for the coming "change of Heart" that you will undergo whist being revealed Godhead, Uttama-Parusha-pushan-rupa.

 

Such realization includes purging of multiple departments of daily life & consciousness so as to allow for your Persona to evolve to accept that you are made in the image of God and that the "Maya" is recognized as an assisting agent to you to rise above samsara and the Void and further demensions of neisciance.

 

Second, I'll get back to you as soon as possible--as providence allows.

 

Namaste Bhakta,

 

Thank you for 'issueing wee bits of revelatory-sastric references'. I will wait for the full revelation from your highness. It appears that you are privy to Godhead, Uttama-Parusha-pushan-rupa. Nice.

 

Om

[Smiley]

 

For true Hindu Krist is God and Christianity is a valied religion.

Dear Trivedi 3, may I ask if you are an authority on what a "true Hindu" believes? Also, if you believe this is God, then do you mean Sri Vishnu, Sri Shiva, a demigod like Sri Ganesha or a deva like Sri Indra? Apparently some Hindus think the differences between Shiva, Vishnu, the demigods and the devas are important considerations. I have heard different 'authorities' hold an opposite opinion of yours. For instance, Voice of India spokesman Sita Ram Goel wrote a very painstakingly researched book on this issue: http://hamsa.org/artifice-intro.htm

I also read a book by Swami Prakashanand Saraswati (http://www.barsanadham.org/) in which he compared the Bible to Greek mythology. He feels they are on the same level. It seems (to my simple mind) that the idea of Jesus comes from the Bible and was brought to India on the lips of missionaries who didn't seem to have anything worthwhile to say (to put it mildly) about the indigenous deities . Were these 'blaspheming' (from a Hindu perspective) missionaries really Self-realized Rishis? My interest in this subject is because I am an ex-Christian who thinks that Yoga and vegetarianism (neither of which come from the Bible) are India's greatest gifts to the world.

[bija]

Thx for the questions Smiley. I look forward to hearing different perspectives on this also.

 

In the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition there is such a concept called empowered incarnation. Shaktyavesa avatara. These incarnations are living beings who have been empowered with a degree of the Lord's shakti, to fulfill a specific purpose.

 

Depending on how much shakti the Lord empowers the entity with, and for what purpose the Lord wishes to fulfill through the entity - will be relevant to the level of the incarnations empowerment.

 

For example you or I could be chosen for a specific service, so empowerment will come to us for that purpose (it may appear to be a very small thing).

 

The Gaudiya tradition says Jesus was such an empowered soul. They also say Mohammed, and so on. From the vedic tradition beings such as Prthu and Lord Buddha were considered shaktyavesa (being empowered from shakti potency).

 

So the idea is very vast.

 

This is different than if tri-vedi's idea that in Hinduism Jesus is God. That is monism. But if it is Christ, that we are talking about (as he says) then we are discussing universal stuff. And in my opinion we are brothers because we have realized the same god lives in both our hearts. The Gaudiya would say Jesus is the son of God. The Gaudiya would also say super-soul is One. That God is the Supreme Non-Dual Truth.

 

So we really must ask, 'what is Christ consciousness?'

 

Jesus was given the title Christ. Christ is a greek word as you know. Which means anointed. The word usage and tradition is stemming from a specific area - the mediteranean.

 

Many of the modern hindu teachers such as Yogananda and Vivekenanda knew that this Christ consciousness was a perennial and universal phenomena. Yogananda even wrote a book called 'The second coming of christ - the resurrection of christ within you'.

 

So what does it mean? What is that potential of awakening within every living entity that is not limited by belief system, creed, nation, color, age, etc etc.

 

It is this. That super-soul lives within the heart of all beings equally. As friend. Christ consciousness is realizing the relation to super-soul, rather than identifying with matter (mind body).

 

Now, depending on our desires super-soul will grant different boons. For example, if we have gross material desires, super-soul being so kind, will grant those desires.

 

If we desire siddhis, and psychic gifts, that will be granted also by super-soul. The yogis for example.

 

If we desire spiritual love (bhakti), to see the Supreme Person in all things. Where every act while living in this world, becomes one of loving service to the higher principle, Vasudeva conception. Super-soul will guide us toward that too.

 

If we desire sweetness/ simplicity and to see Sri Krsna the cowherd boy in all things. The same occurs.

 

So, back to the question, what about Jesus? It seems he was empowered for a specific time and place and function, that he had siddhis, that he saw God in parental rasa...and that he gave his followers the gift of the Holy Spirit. The spirit of love. His followers called this salvation and elaborated doctrine about him stemming from Jewish thought. The book of Hebrews is one such book, written by Paul. There the idea of blood is discussed.

 

y.s.

[balachandranv]

bhaktajan,

u must finally know whats gonna happen finally to ISCON guy like u.

 

 

 

[bija]

It would be nice if you could present some philosophy now Bala.

 

Jan in his last post has taken this approach, it is your turn now it seems.

 

If you wish to found temples you will have to convince people. If you wish to spread Shiva consciousness you will have to defeat the oppossing panditas! Criticism of others alone, will not found your philosophy in the minds of others, let alone the listeners by the way side. It may only detract them from your cause. If your cause is noble...you stand up now...and share your heart's desire!

 

y.s.

[atanu]

 

I have realized ignorance is simply seeing others as objects (for one's own gratification). The pitfall for many ignorant preachers.

 

 

Namaste bija,

 

That is a nice knowledge. Allow me to add that once the subject is known, then there is no need to preach.

 

Regards

 

Om

[bija]

I have heard that said numerous times atanu. And I appreciate what you say.

 

But I got some questions:

 

How did we come to our portion of knowledge gleaned so far? Was it spontaneous within the heart, or did hearing help also?

 

Or should we just let be? Let others take their course in life? I feel yes and no.

 

Is glorifying the beauty of God ok (sankirtan)? Maybe pure glorification of Reality the Beautiful is different than mixed preaching?

 

I question what to do. How to practice awareness and thoughtfullness, to speak only that which is realized? And how to discern what is realized knowledge, and what is just mental platform stuff?

 

any thoughts would be appreciated.

[bija]

Here is my meditation a few days back on this subject of self-obsession.

 

 

 

 

The last few days I have been very sick with virus and fever. Leading to reflection.

 

This morning in jaap I was calling Sri Nitaai. 'Lord Nitaai my soul is self-obsessed with glory and fame...I see this everywhere I look, due to ignorance. My tongue and mind are enemies. Please teach me how to rectify this gross sin?'

 

The Lord answered, 'What you see now in meditation (my beautiful form) needs to be glorified by the tongue! Nothing else is to come from the tongue! When you glorify me, then my love will shower down! This is the mood and grace of Gurudeva! I will teach you how, if you wish to follow'

 

At some point in the search for truth, step by step the soul will realize more of its original nature. The journey can be painful, but the outcome sweet. Material life and its cultivation is sweet...but the painful outcome is beyond words to describe. Die to live!

 

your servant...bija.

I think pure kirtan is within pure soul function. The proof being the love and bliss in relation to our Lord. It is only natural. Obviously many of us are not there yet...but Gita says 'in devotion there is no loss'. Krsna also says in Gita anyone who sings this song is dear to Me. But he also says, do not sing it to the faithless.

 

I am sure singing to the faithless may lead them into wrong impressions. And those impressions once developed are hard to clear from the mind.

[bija]

 

That is a nice knowledge. Allow me to add that once the subject is known, then there is no need to preach. by atanu

And one more thing, I agree. Once the truth is known there is nothing to defend by words. Body and mind are nothing.

 

 

But hey...love may lead us into trouble. If God is a small cowherd boy, his older brother may come to defend. This is the danger of Krsna consciousness;).

 

But ofcourse that is a totally different subject matter than in discussion.

 

Anyway...I wish to hear from Balachandranv, he has something burning in his heart?

[vivek.gms]

Hinduism: Time for reforms and expansion

The more I read about Hinduism, the more I love it. I can’t differentiate growth of Hinduism and <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region>. One nurtured other and we enjoyed great civilization for thousands of years and will enjoy it for unlimited years ahead. But, the time has come to go beyond <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region> once again.

Hinduism evolved over thousands of years. Our great ancestors did research and found many ways to reach God. They said the universal reality is the same (God); different people call it by different names. Through those great efforts we produced concepts like,

 

• Vasudaika Kutumbam –one universal family.
  
• Vedanta- Dwaita & Adwaita dharma.
  
• Concept of Atma.
  
• Bakti, Karma, Jnana and Raja yogas.

It preached equality of all human beings (Hindu or non-Hindu). Like every ancient society we had our Gods. But, at higher levels of realization all of them represented one absolute God.

Apart from concept of God, Hindus also developed defense systems, meditation, yoga, martial arts, astrology, mathematics, medicine and other arts and sciences. In the process <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region> became rich, affluent and powerful. A lot of people from across the world migrated to <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region>.

To accommodate expanding society and for convenience, various systems were developed. But, over a period of time some of these systems become out dated. They don’t change with time.

There are mainly two things we need to handle at this stage:

 

• Caste System.
  
• Rituals and number of Gods we have.

We should take steps to make all hindus are equal in society (not just in writings). We should establish systems to make every one equal. Encouraging inter-caste marriages and teaching vedic literature to every hindu are initial steps we can take to move towards our goal of social equality.

Some of our rituals really unnecessary and some of them are incorporated to give benefits to certain sections. We have a lot of Gods. Why? The answer I got after search is every sect that entered <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region> bought its own Gods (All ancient societies had separate set of their own Gods). In some places in Andhra Pradesh, village Gods in adjacent villages is different. Now we need to rationalize Gods. It’s for our unity, to remove confusion, making people get red of false assumption/beliefs and for realization of God. Please remember, Hinduism teaches us that at higher levels of consciousness there is only one absolute God. All other Gods, deities, sages, gurus are showing us a way to reach God. Idol worship facilitates this process and it gives a lot of satisfaction. Idols are like keeping photographs of gods with us.

I thought about a few points to make transition or to bring much needed change or rejuvenate the great religion:

 

• Caste system reforms.
  
• Reducing no. of Gods. 10-15 is the ideal number. Every hindu prays to all or any one of these Gods: Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Durga, Ganesh and Hanuman. One thing is clear “cow is not a God”.
  
• Martial arts schools. Power listens to power only. We need to strengthen our brothers to fight if necessary.
  
• Schools for Vedanta literature and handling rituals.
  
• Uniting Hindus all over world.
  
• Establishing centre to discuss about God and social systems.
  
• Establishing panel for rewriting some of our religious books.
  
• Expanding Hinduism all over the world. Because it’s the only answer for world peace and the way to realize God.

Please remember Sri Adi Shankaracharya and Swami Vivekananda preached change during their period, opposed some of the systems in Hinduism and united all hindus.

Thanks for reading this article. Discuss your views with me. Please exchange this article with many of your friends, family and discuss this.

[hindustani]

Skippy and Bjan

Mahadev devotees never need any certificates from people like you first point

Second we who worship shiva never feel that other Gods are not equal to Shiva-Here I shall refrain myself using special phrase which you people use for other Gods except Shri Narayana,its neither our policy nor our sanskara.

We never induldge ourselves in such discussion,our ways of pooja is fine,if you have other ways of doing pooja we respect them as much as like ours so never feel that We shall reply to all your posts on whose God is Great or superior,nah we are Hindu and its not our Sanskara to say anything adverse to our holy Gods.

Hope you understand our points,the way this saga is turing when someone wrote better built a temple rather than building a ***** this shows your thinking,your Sanskara and the blood you carry,such people will never get Moksha but we still pray to God to give inuf sence to such people as we are perhaps not like you and we are not here to prove ourselves Or request you to grant any holy certificates to us on our thinking.When we find obsticles first we try to avoid it,if still there is a tuff hurdle we bypass it without saying anything,this your Guru perhaps not aware of,if aware of he did not teach you this,if he tought you this you forgot.

Om Shanti Shanti Shanti.

[bija]

 

your Sanskara and the blood you carry

 

Dear Hindustani,

 

It has been my error to post on this thread. Please read the whole thread.

 

Please browse my posts at Audarya. You will find some error, but never bad blood.

 

Infact I find discussion of dogmatic superiority a waste of time in my personal life. In real life I will never argue in that way. But am always keen for thoughtful discussion. And to show through that discussion the validity of Sri Krsna bhakti - as a relevant spiritual path for todays suffering world. Attempting to point out its beauty. Boldly, and gently I will sing its truth, hoping to give others a glimpse.

 

Other hindus who can do the same, I am always eager to hear from. Therefore I challenge you to speak boldy your path, so that I may learn.

 

Infact at this forum there have been endless abusive words thrown at my chosen path. I never respond to those posters, and try to see where we (neophyte vaisnavas) have gone wrong, reaping the just reward. That is evident to those who know me.

 

I am not responsible for other posters on this forum ofcourse. Especially the young bhakta in regards to the liquor house comment. That was so degrading of what a beautiful temple of Lord Shiva is all about. It was a subtle comment to minimize the Shaivite way. I would suggest a comment made from young naievity, and oneday that man will hopefully understand.

 

If you have found my posts here offensive please forgive me. Guru would be displeased with me if that was the case. But he is never displeased when I speak the truth of my heart. That is my choice to share with you, placing confidence in you.

 

I am really serious in encouraging Balachandra in his enthusiasm! He started this thread asking for assistance how to open temples. My advice to him is....speak your truth loudly, with heartfelt love. Leave behind all the personal attacks. Then your mission will succeed!

y.s.

 

ps. I will always speak out against Hindu philosophers who say Sri Krsna is a temporary manifestation. His reality for me spiritually is eternal. He is the love of my life, as is Lord Shiva or Lord Ganesh, or Maa Devi for their bhakta.

[bija]

 

nah we are Hindu and its not our Sanskara to say anything adverse to our holy Gods.

Well said. I am hindu too (even if others deny me that right because of my birth). And never once in my life spoke poorly of the Lord's expansions, but respected them as my faith tradition demands. To speak poorly of them would be directly abusing the Lord's body.

 

Infact dear friend I have Lord Shiva on my altar at home next to Lord Krsna. Offering bhoga to them both everyday.

 

Ofcourse my spiritual reality may be different than other hindus theologically. That is no disqualification, and it is no point of contention. I am open to diversity, even if not accepting all siddhantas from all schools.

 

Here is my thoughts posted on another thread today:

 

 

This is a really good question. Thank you so much.

 

Why are the Holy Dhamas and it's Deity so glorified by the one-pointed devotees?

 

Here are some thoughts:

 

1/ The one-pointed devotees are seeing a very fine spiritual reality, beyond material vision. Their heart, their soul, everything fully absorbed in that divine samadhi.

 

2/ They wish to invite others. And they wish to enlighten other qualified candidates into that divine samadhi. Therefore they write.

 

3/ Such glorification in sastra is a vehicle to enter. It shows the esoteric cultivation (bhajan) necessary.

 

I am sure there are unlimited other reasons why compassion motivates the saints to write in such ways.

 

There is only apparent conflict, when we conditioned souls are still seeing from the relative plane, of conditioned experience.

 

For some reason, if we have conflict, we are not yet qualified to see the Non-dual Absolute Truth. The oneness we contrive will only be a shadow substance of Divine Oneness. So it seems we have to cultivate in this relative plane for some time, to gain the necessary qualification to see.

The first step (qualification) is sraddha (faith). We need to become free of doubts. This is spiritual cultivation, not material cultivation. reply by bija

 

 

My great sadness hindustani is that unlimited times this birth (due to my degraded birth station) I have offended other beings on earth (the Lord's body). That will be my disqualification for moksha this birth. By the grace of Guru that sanskara is leaving slowly.

 

The pure Holy Name will never appear on the tongue of one who offends others souls.

 

This will be my last post on this thread.

[atanu]

 

I have heard that said numerous times atanu. And I appreciate what you say.

 

But I got some questions:

 

How did we come to our portion of knowledge gleaned so far? Was it spontaneous within the heart, or did hearing help also?

 

Or should we just let be? Let others take their course in life? I feel yes and no.

 

Is glorifying the beauty of God ok (sankirtan)? Maybe pure glorification of Reality the Beautiful is different than mixed preaching?

 

I question what to do. How to practice awareness and thoughtfullness, to speak only that which is realized? And how to discern what is realized knowledge, and what is just mental platform stuff?

 

any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Namaste bija,

 

Frankly speaking, I did not expect such strong rejoinders/queries. You are welcome. Regards. Answers to your four questions follow.

 

 

 

Sanatana dharma teaches manana after sharvana, so hearing is the first step towards re-kindling of what always is there as the Hridaya.

 

 

On deep manana, here the understanding is that others are not independent of this. More explicitly, the image of others is not independent of the image of "I". When the "I" is known as from the absolute and Shiva Himself, then all is Shiva -- the Good one.

 

 

My Guru has taught that only freedom that an ego has in this world is abidance in God and sankirtan is definitely a valid and excellent way to abide in God.

 

 

For the fourth question, the answer is above: Abidance in God. Rest automatically falls in place.

 

Regards

 

Om Namah Shivaya

[hindustani]

My dear Skippy

Sorry for getting me totally wrong,re-read below content again here

 

Hope you understand our points,the way this saga is turing when someone wrote better built a temple rather than building a ***** this shows your thinking,your Sanskara and the blood you carry.

That means I am taking of a person and his sanskara and his blood who wrote the "liquorhouse",if thats not you this does not applicable to you,I repeatedly said we value all devotees and their path of Bhakti,if you felt that many members had problem with you on what you do,I say sorry from their behalf,you may also check my posts as well,I never said anything wrong about other devotees ever here but that does not mean each time someone keep saying about demi Gods stuff etc..such stuff MUST be stopped in any circumstances if you people are real Vaishnavas.

[Smiley]

As a person who is familiar with the Sankirtana movement but not part of it, let me say that I think that the congregational chanting of the names of Vishnu can be a beautiful thing. However I think that being obsessed with making more devotees in order to 'save' the world (out of 'causeless mercy') is not. I realize that both are part of the movement, but that is still the way I see it.

 

Sometimes when I see people really happy and into their congregational chanting of the names of Vishnu, I can see how that will be attractive to some and draw them in. However, I think the HK's should be satisfied with what comes in that way (of its own accord) and not push to the point of obnoxiousness.

 

1. The movie Airplane! was released in 1980. In one scene a traveler making his way through a busy airport smashes a Hare Krishna devotee right in the face with his fist! I heard that in many theatres cheers went up from the audience when this scene was played. If so many people would cheer at something like that, it may be

worth considering why?

 

2. I worked many years at Los Angeles International Airport. Do you know how many Bhagavad Gita As It Is and other books by Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada I found laying on the ground or in the trash over those years? I wish I had a dollar for each one! I would bet that people actually gave donations for those books and after the HK devotees were out of sight - trashed them! Yes, people will give donations for books if you really pressure them. Instead of taking the clue, the organization's lawyers would fight it out with the City of Los Angeles in court for the right to continue their practices.

 

ISKCON is the biggest organization of Hindus outside of India; therefore to many people, this is the face of Sanatana Dharma. I think it is worth contemplating what is going on and whose interests are really being represented.

 

 

I have heard that said numerous times atanu. And I appreciate what you say.

 

But I got some questions:

 

How did we come to our portion of knowledge gleaned so far? Was it spontaneous within the heart, or did hearing help also?

 

Or should we just let be? Let others take their course in life? I feel yes and no.

 

Is glorifying the beauty of God ok (sankirtan)? Maybe pure glorification of Reality the Beautiful is different than mixed preaching?

 

I question what to do. How to practice awareness and thoughtfullness, to speak only that which is realized? And how to discern what is realized knowledge, and what is just mental platform stuff?

 

any thoughts would be appreciated.

[bija]

Ok I break my promise more posts:crazy:. Definately some things worth discussing.

 

Thx Atanu, I thought it might be worth talking about preaching for a bit, hence the questions. As Bala opened this thread asking for advice on way to spread a message. And also the evident problems that arise when preaching takes place. Healthy discussion. Something to contemplate.

 

That vision of God you have shared is exalted vision. In our tradition this is the vision of the topmost devotee. In his eyes all is perfect. People become attracted to God simply by seeing him/her.

 

**********************************************************************************************

 

Dear Smiley, it is interesting what you say about the books at the airport. It is worth considering the consequences. I am not a member of Iskcon so really that is their affair that I choose not to be part of. I have heard some leaders in Iskcon wish to slow down the book distribution on the street idea, but they are criticized internally as being unfaithful to Srila Prabhupada.

 

I have also left books on public seats after being pressured to take them, when backpacking the US as a young man, in the 90's. What won my heart was when I heard the singing.

 

There are so many key 'group thinks' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_think - within the Iskcon movement which condition the devotees to behave in certain ways. That is why it has some cult characteristic.

 

Earlier in this post I described my experiences in town with the book sellers. Yesterday I was only reflecting on their high pressure tactics to sell large quantities, and realized they never perform kirtan here when they come.

 

I have never heard them sing the Holy Names. Instead their book selling is considered sankirtan.

 

Would not the beautiful melody of the Holy Names draw people in who were interested? Without all the bad reaction. We have a beautiful central park to do this. Ofcourse they may not sell as many:crazy:.

 

I am sorry so many have been offended.

[bija]

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1115579

Groupthink

 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

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Groupthink is a type of thought exhibited by group members who try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas. During groupthink, members of the group avoid promoting viewpoints outside the comfort zone of consensus thinking. A variety of motives for this may exist such as a desire to avoid being seen as foolish, or a desire to avoid embarrassing or angering other members of the group. Groupthink may cause groups to make hasty, irrational decisions, where individual doubts are set aside, for fear of upsetting the group’s balance. The term is frequently used pejoratively, with hindsight.

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</td></tr></tbody></table>[edit] Causes of groupthink

 

Highly cohesive groups are much more likely to engage in groupthink. The closer they are, the less likely they are to raise questions that might break the cohesion. Although Janis sees group cohesion as the most important antecedent to groupthink, he states that it will not invariably lead to groupthink: 'It is a necessary condition, but not a sufficient condition' (Janis, Victims of Groupthink, 1972). According to Janis, group cohesion will only lead to groupthink if one of the following two antecedent conditions is present:

• Structural faults in the organization: insulation of the group, lack of tradition of impartial leadership, lack of norms requiring methodological procedures, homogeneity of members' social background and ideology.
  
• Provocative situational context: high stress from external threats, recent failures, excessive difficulties on the decision-making task, moral dilemmas.

Social psychologist Clark McCauley's three conditions under which groupthink occurs:

• Directive leadership.
  
• Homogeneity of members' social background and ideology.
  
• Isolation of the group from outside sources of information and analysis.

[edit] Symptoms of groupthink

 

In order to make groupthink testable, Irving Janis devised eight symptoms that are indicative of groupthink (1977).

1. Illusions of invulnerability creating excessive optimism and encouraging risk taking.
   
2. Rationalising warnings that might challenge the group's assumptions.
   
3. Unquestioned belief in the morality of the group, causing members to ignore the consequences of their actions.
   
4. Stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil, disfigured, impotent, or stupid.
   
5. Direct pressure to conform placed on any member who questions the group, couched in terms of "disloyalty".
   
6. Self censorship of ideas that deviate from the apparent group consensus.
   
7. Illusions of unanimity among group members, silence is viewed as agreement.
   
8. Mindguards — self-appointed members who shield the group from dissenting information.

[edit] Groupthink and de-individuation

 

Cults are also studied by sociologists with regards to groupthink and its effect on deindividuation. The textbook definition states deindividuation as the loss of self-awareness and evaluation apprehension; occurs in group situations that foster anonymity and draw attention away from the individual (Myers, 305)

[bija]

 

I never said anything wrong about other devotees ever here but that does not mean each time someone keep saying about demi Gods stuff etc..such stuff MUST be stopped in any circumstances if you people are real Vaishnavas.

We need to discern who is real in this computer world.

[bhaktajan]

 

Namaste Bhakta,

 

1--After reading through your seemingly masterful;) responses (which actually reveal 'I know all' pomposity) to Lord Shiva bhaktas,

I feel that you are not doing full justice to Swami Prabhupada.

Can't you support your contentions from some valid scripture to validate your purports?

C'mon. You should be able to do it -- .

C'mon. If you cannot do it, then accept that.

 

[Atanu, (others included), I'm having techinical difficulty--I need your imput:

 

Which "valid scripture" will you accept?

Is the 'Rig' Veda good for our purposes?

 

For I know that throughout the universe there are only these two types of human beings.

 

And in the Rig Veda it is stated that:

'the suras always aim at the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord Vishu and act accordingly. Their ways are as illuminated as the path of the sun'--not that Lord Shiva is an asura, but that the aim is Vishnu, so I will be searching the Shloka Number.

 

Was the question actually:

'Where does Krishna refered to in the Vedas'?

 

Which of my 'contentions' (scriptural references) --from some valid scripture --would you like me to cross-reference?

 

Which scriptural reference (injoined injuction) are you asking me to deliver to you?]

 

2-- Thank you for 'issueing wee bits of revelatory-sastric references'.

I will wait for the full revelation from your highness.

It appears that you are privy to Godhead, Uttama-Parusha-pushan-rupa. Nice.

[Well yes of-course I am (mind you I'm a baby in my group of mentors) --all those who hear the Gita as spoken by Bhagavan Shree Krishna are relieved in Krishna's timely darshan --not just Krishna's philosophical strategies for artha, kama, dharma & moksha--but to see Krishna's smiling face at the end of the tunnel of Samsara].

 

I have not been privy to the Megomaniacal minds of history's great conquerors such as Hiroshita, Mussolini, etc but they all felt they were privy to a higher calling--without taking Krishna's direct authority as their standard of measurement --I am being asked to provide you with a standard of measurement that you will recognize as authoritative and encompassing your own learning, anew.

 

I will be delivering it to you, with a dessert menu into the bargain]

 

 

3--Allow me to add that once the subject is known, then there is no need to preach.

[The Medeival Guilds of Europe protected its secrets of the Crafts (Shipbuilding, Masonry, Lawyer, Medicine, Reading & Writting, Scripture, Wealth, Landownership, Choice of Husband, Freedom of the Press, etc) were kept away from the public commoners.

 

No need to preach is correct for you--You should develop skills that are more in keeping with your abilities. Correct?]

 

 

 

Again,

Which "valid scripture" will you accept?

Is the 'Rig' Veda good for our purposes?

 

Forgive my pomposity it may contain bits of Krishna's opulences laced into the fray,

Bhaktajan

[bhaktajan]

Taking Krishna's direct authority as the standard of measurement.

 

Where does all this Hindu Vedas come from?

 

Originally there was only one Veda, and there was no necessity of reading it. People were so intelligent and had such sharp memories that by once hearing from the lips of the spiritual master they would understand.

They would immediately grasp the whole purport. But five thousand years ago Vyasadeva put the Vedas in writing for the people in this age, Kali-yuga.

He knew that eventually the people would be short-lived, their memories would be very poor, and their intelligence would not be very sharp.

“Therefore, let me teach this Vedic knowledge in writing.” He divided the Vedas into four: Rg, Sama, Atharva and Yajur. Then he gave the charge of these Vedas to his different disciples.

He then thought of the less intelligent class of men—stri, shudra and dvija-bandhu. He considered the woman class and shudra class (worker class) and dvija-bandhu. Dvija-bandhu refers to those who are born in a high family but who are not properly qualified.

A man who is born in the family of a brahmana but is not qualified as a brahmana is called dvija-bandhu. For these persons he compiled the Mahabharata, called the history of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:country-region w:st="on">India</st1:country-region></st1:place>, and the eighteen Puranas.

These are all part of the Vedic literature: the Puranas, the Mahabharata, the four Vedas and the Upanisads. The Upanisads are part of the Vedas. Then Vyasadeva summarized all Vedic knowledge for scholars and philosophers in what is called the Vedanta-sutra. This is the last word of the Vedas.

Vyasadeva personally wrote the Vedanta-sutra under the instructions of Narada, his Guru Maharaja (spiritual master), but still he was not satisfied.

That is a long story, described in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Vedavyasa was not very satisfied even after compiling many Puranas and Upanisads, and even after writing the Vedanta-sutra.

Then his spiritual master, Narada, instructed him, “You explain the Vedanta-sutra.” Vedanta means “ultimate knowledge,” and the ultimate knowledge is <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> says that throughout all the Vedas one has to understand Him: vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> says, “I am the compiler of the Vedanta-sutra, and I am the knower of the Vedas.” Therefore the ultimate objective is <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.

That is explained in all the Vaiishnava commentaries on Vedanta philosophy. We Gaudiya Vaiishnavas have our commentary on Vedanta philosophy, called Govinda-bhasya, by Baladeva Vidyabhusana. Similarly, Ramanujacarya has a commentary, and Madhvacarya has one.

The version of Sankaracarya is not the only commentary. There are many Vedanta commentaries, but because the Vaishnavas did not present the first Vedanta commentary, people are under the wrong impression that Sankaracarya’s is the only Vedanta commentary.

Besides that, Vyasadeva himself wrote the perfect Vedanta commentary, Srimad-Bhagavatam.

[please feel free to express any differences of opinion to my above post]

[balachandranv]

bhaktajan,

u should first understand the purpose of jai sri jagatguru adisankaracharya. when India was lacking in bhakthi, and buddhism was spreading all over the world.to keep a balance in worshipping god, lord shiva in the form of guru adi sankara took birth.guru adi sankara spreaded bhakthi all over india. guru adi sankara introduced "advaita" meaning everything is one. one more thing he was not selfish like vaishnavas or isconites like u guys. he has writtern numerous slokas on all the gods.u can even refer to kanchi kamakoti website.even "bhaja govindham" was writtern by him.i accept vyasar has writtern b.geetha etc.. but it was not preached all over India.only bcoz of guru adi sankara, even b.geetha's pride was spread all over India. lord shiva won the unbeatable "kama",even lord vishnu couldn't avoid it.to know about guru adi sankara, refer kanchi kamakoti website.bhaktajan, the problem is u r not considering others facts.u r arguing with ur own facts. try to change ur attitude,else u will have to face the consequences.with out guru adi sankara, there is no meaning of the word bhakthi.try to read the story of adi sankara once.he has dedicated his whole life in bhakthi.

[bhaktajan]

Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

 

You do know that the mission (of life) is to spread Krishna Bhakti.

 

So Lord Shiva's devotion to Vishnu has bloomed--and you are learning about Krishna Bhakti through Lord Shiva's mercy.

 

Lord Shiva protects vaishnavas or isconites like me.

So it is my aim to please Lord Shiva by wishing you to receive Krishna brahmana-shabda (Krishna's Words).

 

You will learn that service to Vishnu is what Lord Shiva is meditating on.

Lord Shiva expects you to serve Krishna.

 

When you distribute Bhaktivedanta Svami's Translations you will see the expansions of Durga/Shakti & Rudha in the faces and lives of those who contribute donations in exchange for Bhaktivedanta Svami's Translations --this type of work can only be done who are highly renounced--because such tapasya speaks to Paramatma within in the stranger's heart and the Maya of that stranger (who accepts copies of Bhaktivedanta Svami's Translations) flees upon contact with a humble Krishna-Bhakta.

 

The Bhakta learns who to "avoid" the sympathetic tormoil that arises when a neophyte/stranger relises that all of their life's trappings are about seeking only one person's darshan--this is what Shiva's one-pointed tapasya has taught me.

otherwise one